Don't Approach: Melee's Flaw Dissected

[R3N0]

valid arguments.

imo.

but some of the players are getting too good..

well i mean it used to be tech skilled vs non- but its been like 12 years or something. so even noobiez have caught up. the median player for example, like.. twebb (that has gotten a lot better) is way above what the old average was.

its just the meta game changed... and people are more open and theres more materials for people to use to play the game..


i like being aggressive in my play style.. and ya i get punished .. but yo.. wtv ill just out platform camp ;p

 

[PEEF!]

what I dont understand is how people cover multiple options when thr options arent obvious. covering options isn't hard when someone is at the ledge, but in neutral play it doesn't make sense to me. when someone its dash dancing and randomly moving in general, mixing fullhops and shorthops randomly, how do you cover options? it seems that the obvious option coverage is exactly what theyre looking for. this its mainly at kirbykaze

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I don't presume to know as much as Hax does of the top level metagame, but I distinctly remember people complaining that offense was too powerful just a few years ago when everyone started leveling up in tech skill...

There is a high chance that this is just part of the regular pendulum swing. People have been working on their defensive techs much more heavily the past few years imo (OOS options, shield DI, shield angling, lightshielding, crouch cancelling, ground teching, wall teching, etc are all implemented a lot better). Maybe I'm overly optimistic though.

 

[Cherished Doll]

Very good read...

*thinks*
o.o

 

[Oracle]

Defense is better in that when youre in the lead, you have no need to approach (though you still can) whereas if youre losing youre forced to approach. Thus, while winning you have manyore options (on the defensive and offensive spectrum) where
as the loser only has offense, so the loser has way more potential options to cover

 

[Hax]

i'll let you guys in on a secret that's going to hurt me in the long run, but help me prove my point: i doubt i would have beaten Axe in the Genesis 2 crew battle had he not whiffed shffl'd nairs towards me repeatedly. watch the match again; 2 of my kills are pivot knees upon reacting to his nairs. i place these knees exactly where Axe is going to land because i know that, at best, he is still going to suffer from L-cancel lag that is sufficient enough for me to punish. even the first kill was arguably because Axe moved towards me.

 

[BigD!!!]

but axe has gained virtually all of his high placings at major tournaments by keeping pressure on people and making it difficult for them to get into the position in which they can react to that

jiano used to be the most defensive falcon around, his dashdance spacing was perfect, then darkrain beat the **** out of him one tourney. i asked jiano why he couldnt dashdance grab darkrains nairs, he said "he didnt let me dash away"

we've been playing this game and pushing it as hard as we can for 10 years, if the hands down best strategy was to camp people out then everybody would be doing it.

fortunately, most people dont really get better by doing this because they hang out by the edge and then just die in one hit when the other player does eventually approach them successfully

 

[Hax]

but axe has gained virtually all of his high placings at major tournaments by keeping pressure on people and making it difficult for them to get into the position in which they can react to that

said people are extremely far away from Melee's top potential; i just gave a perfectly good example of Axe losing to someone he's better than solely because he approached. when those people start nearing perfect Melee (like today's top pros) and punishing his shffl'd nairs properly, i guarantee they'll win.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

What makes you say Axe is better than you Hax?

You're pretty good at this game lol

 

[Veril]

Great read! Thanks Hax.

also my reaction time is bad (0.23/0.24 seconds)

That's actually slightly better than average.

I don't suppose you happen to know your tactile or auditory reaction times? Those are both substantially better than visual reaction time.

While you can't produce a genetic advantage in reaction time that you weren't born with (yet), there are a lot of ways to optimize what you do have. Maybe I'll make a neuroscience/psychopharmacology thread in user blogs like I did waaaaay back. I had planned on it being more of a pharmacology thing cause that's what I know best, but I could work in reaction time, the difference between reflex and reaction, etc.

Would people be interested in that though? idk

 

[PEEF!]

Just letting everyone know, the panel on tonights Melee State of the Game will include Taj and Dr.PP, and we will be focusing on this thread in addition to the regular bi-weekly topics. Tune in to www.twitch.tv/peefsmash at 7pm Eastern for what will be some great insight.

(Melee State of the Game Thread) http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=12631706

 

[AXE 09]

Hax, you're looking past the fact that a majority of the kills I got on you were because I approached. And looking back on the match right now, a good amount of hits that you got on me were because you approached too. I think you should stop focusing solely on those few hits you got from countering my mistakes and look at the rest of the match as a whole.

The 2nd and 3rd kills that I got on you were because I approached you. And the first kill I got on you was because I caught you while you were trying to run away.

The times that I got punished for approaching were because I should not have committed to doing a Nair for those times, which was my mistake. But that does NOT mean that approaching all together (or even with a Nair, because there were many times even in that same match that it was effective) is bad. Approaching at the wrong time when you're able to get punished is bad, which I admit I did quite a few times during that match but I usually don't. Look at our matches from Pound V for example, where approaching is used effectively during the right time. There's times where you shouldn't approach, but there's plenty of times where you can and should, because it rewards you with a kill or a combo.


Lastly in response to your last post Hax, what makes you think I'm better than you? Because I don't think I am, and I'm pretty sure a lot of people see us as about equally skilled. And SHFFLing a Nair as an approach IS NOT BAD. It's extremely good in many situations. During our G2 match, I committed to a SHFFL Nair quite a few times when I shouldn't have because I tend to get extremely nervous in front of a crowd that big so I throw it out without looking at our positions first (johns lol), but that does not mean that approaching like that (or approaching in general) is bad. There were many times where it was successful and earned me a kill or a few hits because you could not punish it, and I know that there are countless situations where approaching will reward you, even against the best players in the world.

 

[Teczer0]

Aziz, while I don't completely disagree with you that defensive options seems to be a more powerful tactic in Melee I don't think that camping is the end all for this game.

Best example I have for this that I might go search for if I'm not lazy is Jman vs Axe at Apex.

I remember literally sitting there like why isn't Jesus just taking the opportunity to commit to his advantage and taking out Axe when he has the chance? Eventually he let Axe learn his habits and Axe eventually would catch him out of his defense. And obviously win lol

I could also probably recall my matches vs Mango where his pressure was so incredible I didn't even understand my own options.

 

[unknown522]

Hax, you most definitely shouldn't have used MvC games as a comparison, or a traditional fighter. Also, a lot of players camp/turtle for a punish in those games as well. Even with the high incentive to approach, a lot of top players still don't in those games.

I mean, I get what you're saying, but you probably should've used a game like 3rd Strike as an example.

 

[Cherished Doll]

Aziz, while I don't completely disagree with you that defensive options seems to be a more powerful tactic in Melee I don't think that camping is the end all for this game.

Best example I have for this that I might go search for if I'm not lazy is Jman vs Axe at Apex.

I remember literally sitting there like why isn't Jesus just taking the opportunity to commit to his advantage and taking out Axe when he has the chance? Eventually he let Axe learn his habits and Axe eventually would catch him out of his defense. And obviously win lol

I could also probably recall my matches vs Mango where his pressure was so incredible I didn't even understand my own options.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liy8D3bIOdU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yjt9E_KmzRg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yWDo-nh6fc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5rKHCRic64&feature=youtube_gdata_player

:D

 

[Teczer0]

I lol'd at that sig

Thank you though =3

 

[AXE 09]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liy8D3bIOdU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yjt9E_KmzRg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yWDo-nh6fc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5rKHCRic64&feature=youtube_gdata_player

:D

Lol!! ^^ <333

 

[beencake]

im a marth player, i if i approach every time with flawless precision spacing, nothing can go wrong lol, basically your bad

0...........0

 

[Cherished Doll]

I lol'd at that sig

Thank you though =3

anytime n.n



Axe <3

 

[Pi]

i thought doll666 was that little azn peach player who chu dat wrote about in his chronicals

 

[Cherished Doll]

i thought doll666 was that little azn peach player who chu dat wrote about in his chronicals

ew. hell to the no. (no offense to doll)

 

[Hax]

i guess i was trying to be modest, Axe. i still think you're a bit better than me. regardless, thanks bro

the one thing i ask of anyone attempting to truly comprehend my theory is to realize that it has to do with theoretically perfect play. Axe, versus a theoretically perfect opponent, your shffl'd nairs will always get punished by a DD away -> grab/pivoted aerial just as they did vs me in the Genesis 2 crew battle (that was close to the best i've ever played in public lol). the reason for this is that jumping forward commits you to that forwards motion in Melee, and if your opponent is able to react in time and counter it, it is a favorable position for him, not you. in general, approaching is bad at theoretically perfect play because the approacher becomes committed to an action while the defender does not. this means that if the defender can react fast enough, he should always come out on top.

the reason i'm so concerned with theoretically perfect play is that, 10 years into this game, top pros are coming pretty damn close to it. i don't doubt that your aggressive, overwhelming style is GREAT vs the average player. pikachu's shffl'd nair probably doesn't even give the opponent 5 frames to punish it accordingly before it hits them; this time frame is way too brief for the average player to react to. what i'm proposing, however, is that you are always giving a perfect opponent the advantage by nairing into them. in today's metagame, this is a legitimate concern; people are THAT good.

Hax, you most definitely shouldn't have used MvC games as a comparison, or a traditional fighter. Also, a lot of players camp/turtle for a punish in those games as well. Even with the high incentive to approach, a lot of top players still don't in those games.

I mean, I get what you're saying, but you probably should've used a game like 3rd Strike as an example.

the only purpose MvC3 served in my OP was to provide an example of a game in which playing offensively comes with plenty of benefits. IMO, it did an adequate job of that. there is no universal rule that dictates offense > defense, or defense > offense in MvC3; at least not in today's metagame.

oh yeah, something else i forgot about traditional fighters: Chip Damage. in traditional fighters, barraging your opponent's block with special moves deals chip damage. chip damage comes out of your opponent's health and is a legitimate threat, unlike Melee's counterpart: shield breaking. when you hit someone's shield in Melee, it slowly deterioriates - so slowly to the point where having your shield broken is considered embarassing. in addition, the only characters that pose a legitimate threat to break your shield are Fox, Falco, and Peach; the rest of the cast doesn't sufficiently rush someone to leave their shield. offense is, once again, underpowered.

 

[BigD!!!]

magus already broke theoretically perfect play down, its something like fox>falco=bowser>everyone else, its more important to consider the overwhelming amount of evidence of strong aggressive play that exists in todays competitive scene

 

[Sinji]

i thought doll666 was that little azn peach player who chu dat wrote about in his chronicals

This.. LOL...

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Iunno Hax, some of your arguments don't make sense to me. In traditional fighters, blocking is usually good. In Melee, being in your shield can mean death. Sure not every character can't break your shield, but every character can shieldstab you...furthermore, 2D fighters are 10000x campier than Melee in general. Other than AE, just about all of the street fighters lean heavily on defense.

As far as theoretical perfect play goes...in 3rd strike you could theoretically parry everything. And in other fighters you could theoretically block all attacks and tech all throws. But these games are balanced for humans, not robots. So I don't see the problem...yea, at perfect play you don't get hit in Melee, but every game is like that. Its not like the defense is so easy to do that not getting hit is super simple either; we still have players like Axe and Mango who are 100 thousand % rushdown placing well.

 

[Dan Salvato]

Just curious, Hax...what would you theoretically change about the mechanics of Melee to fix your proposed problem? It's hard to do much without making offense TOO good. Would you change the shielding mechanic, or maybe add a mechanic that allows the offensive player to mix up more or cancel momentum?

 

[The Star King]

Er, we're never going to get anywhere near perfect play. I would elaborate, but I shouldn't even have to explain this.

 

[Mew2King]

^

Here I'll elaborate for you: reaction time

I'd probably **** everyone at this game if I could see it one frame at a time, just from good understanding of how long everything takes (Magus would **** everyone too) but this isn't chess without a timer, this is 60fps smash.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If the game was like that M2K, you wouldn't **** anyone.

Everyone could power shield, multi-shine and 0 > death without breaking a sweat, not just the people who know frame data.

 

[EPsilon933]

It'd probably be a power shield war unless you've got a character with a 1 frame move

 

[Mew2King]

yeah i guess you're right

I just try to **** people as badly as possible. Go for the jv 5 if possible (except occasional crouch cancels)

and ive probably done like 100 jv 5s before (around that). Most with marth, some sheik/fox, even had falcon/ganon that i remember but it's easiest with marth

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yeah, Marth is probably the easiest character to JV5 with because of his grab combos.

Sheik is bound to get hit at low percents because her combo moves are too weak... And most other characters just can't gimp that well outside of some situational strats.

 

[KirbyKaze]

JV5 with Sheik is probably just tech chasing someone properly 4 times into good edgeguards or CGs into edgeguards. Maybe a gimp here or there.

 

[Spyro]

We will never have frame perfect reaction time, so I don't see what the problem is.

 

[Mew2King]

I can only tech chase with sheik half the time perfectly. The other half of the time I get shined instead of being able to regrab. I kind of just.... use my instinct (guess randomly what I should do). It's better vs falcon since he can't tech in place and shine you, but instead the fastest thing he has is a roll or dodge which isn't invincible until frame 4 (or a jab which comes out frame 3).

 

[Strong Badam]

isn't spot-dodge frame 3? has tons of endlag though.

 

[Bones0]

Frame Data Showdown:
Mew2King vs. Strong Bad

Who will come out on top? Find out after 10,800 frames of commercial breaks.

 

[Niko45]

Nothing wrong with the MvC3 example. That game favors offense to say the very very least.

Melee leans defensive, no question about it. I agree that there are all but a few characters who rely heavily on defensive techniques to be effective.

I agree with Axe, though. I don't think it's as extreme as you're making it out to be. Approaching has its time and place. Pointing out a specific approach that was bad doesn't mean all approaches are always bad. You can and should attack at times, it's just not spammable like it is in a game like mvc3.

I mean it's pretty hard to argue against the point that melee's defensive techniques tend to be stronger than its offensive ones but beyond that I'm not willing to say anything is seriously OP or going to destroy the game.

 

[Strong Badam]

Frame Data Showdown:
Mew2King vs. Strong Bad

Who will come out on top? Find out after 10,800 frames of commercial breaks.

we already tried this at my house, i won on the frame link's nair terminates (39)
& tech in place (in)vulnerability (1-20 invinc for not pichu & pikachu, 1-24 for those two, vulnerable from 21-26 or 25-26 otherwise).
m2k's frame data knowledge is mostly what options are fastest rather than other stuff & isn't always right because he doesn't care enough to study it anymore. he's still way better a player LOL

 

[Winston]

the one thing i ask of anyone attempting to truly comprehend my theory is to realize that it has to do with theoretically perfect play. Axe, versus a theoretically perfect opponent, your shffl'd nairs will always get punished by a DD away -> grab/pivoted aerial just as they did vs me in the Genesis 2 crew battle (that was close to the best i've ever played in public lol). the reason for this is that jumping forward commits you to that forwards motion in Melee, and if your opponent is able to react in time and counter it, it is a favorable position for him, not you. in general, approaching is bad at theoretically perfect play because the approacher becomes committed to an action while the defender does not. this means that if the defender can react fast enough, he should always come out on top.
.

First of all, if you think it's possible to have perfect reaction to that degree, wouldn't your theory apply to any game? Someone waiting for an approach will always have more options than someone approaching. Your points about other games having safer aerials on block/less ending lag doesn't necessarily fix this, since there are non-blocking options that will beat those attacks. In 64, aerials literally have no landing lag ever, and yet all of them would be beaten by a properly timed Usmash from Captain Falcon, or a properly spaced DD grab. (before someone from 64 yells at me with a counterexample, for the cases that this wouldn't work, I'm sure there's something he could do instead.) If we assume reaction time to that degree, doesn't that mean that in order for approaching to be viable, there have to be literally no options to counter them?

Second, about your match vs. Axe. I definitely don't count that as a pure reaction. What you did for both of those times you kneed him was you dashed away, then wavedashed away in preparation for his approaching aerial, then decided started your knee pretty much as soon as he left the ground. All of this because you at least partially predicted his approach; the reaction you did was just to confirm that he would do what you predicted and then time your knee correctly.

That's what it looks like to me. I don't mean to offend by suggesting I know what you're thinking better than you do, it's just that I do plenty of things like that to hard counter approaches, and I know that they aren't pure reaction in the sense that your theory needs them to be. You might say that I suck so this isn't meaningful, but I'm fairly sure that what separates the top pros from me isn't reaction time, but understanding of the game (and execution). M2K's anecdotal evidence supports this.

There's a talent aspect to reaction time, and it can be trained to be improved, but not by the order of magnitude required for your theory to become true. There's a big difference between expecting something, preparing to react to it, then performing the action as soon as you see the visual cue for the thing you were expecting, and keeping up the ability to react to all possible options. What if Axe had ran forward a bit more before doing the aerial? What if Axe had empty hopped towards you but then wavelanded on a platform instead? etc.