Don't Approach: Melee's Flaw Dissected

[EthereaL]

No, it's talking about a character's ability to approach. If a character has no capacity for good approaching, then it's not necessarily true that the opponent camping puts him at a disadvantage.

That does not mean that camping itself is not inherently disadvantaged, but I see where where your argument came from now.

 

[Kal]

Yeah, like I said, it has to be addressed case-by-case, and one must be careful not to oversimplify. Simple solutions to complex questions will necessarily be flawed in most cases.

 

[Bones0]

you know **** just got real whenever someone busts out The Art of War

That's actually how I quickly deduce when someone is talking out of their ***.

 

[Deleted member]

That's actually how I quickly deduce when someone is talking out of their ***.

I think he's whooping your collective ***, intellectually speaking.

I don't agree with the philosophy of the thread as a whole, but I do agree with the fundamental concept that camping is the superior strategy.

 

[Bones0]

I think he's whooping your collective ***, intellectually speaking.

I don't agree with the philosophy of the thread as a whole, but I do agree with the fundamental concept that camping is the superior strategy.

Not sure how he's whooping my *** considering I AGREE WITH HIM.

I just thought it was hilariously cliche of someone to quote Art of War. It just seems like the kind of thing people do to sound smarter than they really are. Same kind of thing as people who ***** the **** out of Thesaurus.com and just replace random words. Their argument could be sound as possible, but it just makes me wonder if the "fluff" was really so necessary.

 

[EthereaL]

That's actually how I quickly deduce when someone is talking out of their ***.

You caught me.

Yeah, like I said, it has to be addressed case-by-case, and one must be careful not to oversimplify. Simple solutions to complex questions will necessarily be flawed in most cases.

My original post was more fundamental-geared than situation-based, but I agree with you in regards to oversimplification...


Thesaurus.com, anyone?

 

[KishPrime]

What would be cool is if someone (or group) did a study of the relative success/failure rate of Approaching/Non-approaching in acquiring first hits, across a variety of relevent high level sets and matchups.

I did something like this for Brawl and Melee about 8-10 months after Brawl came out for about 5 top-level videos of each. I classified each successful attack into one of four different categories. Melee damage was incredibly balanced across pressure-based attacks (forcing the opponent into a defensive mistake with an attacking mentality), outprioritizing attacks (both players attacking at once, better spacing wins), counterattacks (punishing a poor approach), and I made a separate category for blatant mistakes and follow-ups that don't really mean anything from a strategic "landing-a-hit-on-the-opponent-from-a-neutral-position standpoint. Brawl, not surprisingly, was incredibly slanted toward counterattacks off of poor approaches (around 70%), even in MK dittos.

Of course, it was just me doing the analysis (I think one other guy may have come up with similar numbers to me on a couple of videos) and there is some interpretation involved, but I wasn't aiming for any particular results. I think if someone picks out 5 videos of high-level play for Melee and has a couple people do an analysis, that'd be a pretty good way to figure it.

 

[Archangel]

I think Dr.PP wins. We should remove all posts made after his and then close this thread.

 

[Wake]

I think Dr.PP wins. We should remove all posts made after his and then close this thread.

Dr. PP the champion!

 

[Varist]

i don't get why everyone's suddenly hailing that post as the best thing to ever happen to these boards. it's just another brilliant dr pp post

 

[john!]

> it's very long

> it's by a well-known player

> it refutes an unpleasant hypothesis

so people call it genius

 

[:Tally Hoes]

Dding has problems dealing with wavelanding when you space it for a nair and their reaction time has to be faster than 10 frames to be able to cause any problems and then whats funny is either i get my approach off(is not spaced for or predicted) or they run into a counter attack or i get a lot more space and I don't think it's safe to space for if they waveland because if you sit outside their nair range by a noticeable amount they will take that space and you'll just get bullied into a corner. Pure dd camping works perfectly only homerun contest against someone slower without projectiles. Dding is good just can't be your only tactic you'll lose a spacing match at some point really bad or against projectiles. However being all over the place with all useful forms of movement feels safer and less limiting.

Safest way to play is to be ahead of the metagame by a single step willing to dance in an unpredictable manner like rock, paper, scissors.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I'll just say that stage control is really important for winning, and you don't get stage control when you run away. If you "camp" the center of the stage, maybe, but for the top 8 characters at least, approaching/stage control is very important. Whether it's better than defense (or camping, I guess, if you want to call it that) is very situational. The importance of stage control is NOT (as a Peach main I'm biased, though).

 

[Deleted member]

Camping is the foreplay before the sex

We should all just take turns comboing eachother

Then we have a panel of judges determine who had the better combos and they win

 

[reggin867]

i hope melee never becomes like what hax predicts...

 

[Deleted member]

For real though..

I don't think camping is the best overall strategy.

To me, you're counting on a player to make a mistake before you make a mistake with camping.

With approaching many of the times, your aim is to not catch a mistake, but to predict a move and capitalize. Its not that you're catching their **** up, but you call their move.

I think camping is easier to do than approach. I'd say that being defensive is to rely on your techinical prowess rather than your aggressive mental ability. In the end, the better mental player should win. I think this is true especially of newer players from my experiences.

Easier to **** up aggressive options than defensive options imo.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Both Hax and dr.pp are fundamentally right, dr.pp is more concentrating on the individual player's road to improvement whereas hax is talking about what the metagame will become at the theoretical top of what is humanly possible.


TBH, even at what the metagame is becoming right now, a lot of hax's points hold true, jumping does make you committed, defense usually beats offense per say, at the same time, predicted defensive maneuvers are still beatable, defense is better, but not invincible whereas in brawl the difference between a match-up on offense and a match-up on defense can be dreary indeed. I will also note that I've been pushing a lot of this idea in my own little way.


A couple of things I wanted to address:


Dr.PP:

on mango: Regardless of how inherently inferior your playstyle or character is, if there's enough of a gap between your reading ability and your opponent's, then your opponent will lose. Mango is the best because he reads people better then anyone else.

on the direction of the game: His disappointment doesn't mean that it doesn't have the overall superior risk/reward situation, which means it's unfair to hold to the standards of the type of game he would prefer to play instead of the game he IS playing.

On cc'ing:

Eh, the thing with CC'ing is threefold (not even discussing the balance issues, where a number of characters are just destroyed by it). One, CCing punishes committment, because it's more powerful when you're not doing anything. Two, it allows you to beat an attack that called you out on reaction. Even a perfect read can be destroyed by a CC. Three, it only works on the ground, increasing the disparity.

Beyond that, most of what you said is important to a layered approach to the game, but that doesn't change the fact that it is GENERALLY superior to play GENERALLY defensively then offensively. Completely discounting offense however limits your options, making you easier to read, and limiting the number of reads you can make.



Hax:

On follow-ups: This also applies to defensive combos, while CCing is relevant, in relevant characters, there's significant offense that can't be cc'd.


Edge of the stage: I think you're talking about two different things here, which sort of makes it difficult to respond, namely you're talking about getting hit off the stage and retreating to the edge of the stage in the same breath. The thing is, in other fighting games, a retreat to the edge of the stage isn't just a result of spacing, it's also a result of being hit, it's a much less likely result because getting hit in smash puts you offstage.

That said when you retreat to the edge, you have two main choices, stay and deal with the limited options, or retreat to the ledge. Some characters can go around, but it's much more risky. While retreating to the ledge is quite safe and powerful for some characters, the trade-off is stage control, you lose a lot of your attacking ability and your maneuvers require a lot more setup. Some characters also have terrible ledge games.

As far as being hit offstage, only a few characters can avoid the ledge game reliably, and only one can really avoid being harassed completely by going around, and that's jiggs.

Note that only jiggs does well both offstage and when she retreats to the ledge.


So retreating to the edge isn't as good, as it would seem.


Exclusively defense: Totally disagreed, totally avoiding offense period means that you can't call out options it beats and generally makes your play more predictable. Offense should be limited.



Overall, hax has the right idea about the path of the metagame I think, but even defensive play in melee is still amazing and interesting.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Both Hax and dr.pp are fundamentally right, dr.pp is more concentrating on the individual player's road to improvement whereas hax is talking about what the metagame will become at the theoretical top of what is humanly possible.


TBH, even at what the metagame is becoming right now, a lot of hax's points hold true, jumping does make you committed, defense usually beats offense per say, at the same time, predicted defensive maneuvers are still beatable, defense is better, but not invincible whereas in brawl the difference between a match-up on offense and a match-up on defense can be dreary indeed. I will also note that I've been pushing a lot of this idea in my own little way.


A couple of things I wanted to address:


Dr.PP:

on mango: Regardless of how inherently inferior your playstyle or character is, if there's enough of a gap between your reading ability and your opponent's, then your opponent will lose. Mango is the best because he reads people better then anyone else.

on the direction of the game: His disappointment doesn't mean that it doesn't have the overall superior risk/reward situation, which means it's unfair to hold to the standards of the type of game he would prefer to play instead of the game he IS playing.

On cc'ing:

Eh, the thing with CC'ing is threefold (not even discussing the balance issues, where a number of characters are just destroyed by it). One, CCing punishes committment, because it's more powerful when you're not doing anything. Two, it allows you to beat an attack that called you out on reaction. Even a perfect read can be destroyed by a CC. Three, it only works on the ground, increasing the disparity.

Beyond that, most of what you said is important to a layered approach to the game, but that doesn't change the fact that it is GENERALLY superior to play GENERALLY defensively then offensively. Completely discounting offense however limits your options, making you easier to read, and limiting the number of reads you can make.



Overall, hax has the right idea about the path of the metagame I think, but even defensive play in melee is still amazing and interesting.

Is Hax's vision technically possible though? Theory is great until it is taken too far(we all know not to do it too much with matchups, so why would it be any different with broad generalizations about Melee?)

Technically doing anything makes you committed. I'm not sure why that matters. If you dash then you commit to a dash. You can't do an Fsmash out of a dash but no one is bothering to worry about reduced options out of a dash in this discussion.

Why does defense beat offense "per se?"

I'd argue defensive play is inherently predictable(or at least moreso than offense) because you're using less space.



On Mango:

I believe that skill gap has been dramatically reduced from before. Where's your proof Mango is so much better he can get away with these "amazing reads?" He hasn't won a tournament since Pound 4.
Mango is a top player, I wouldn't dare say otherwise, but to suggest he's so much better than everyone else that he can overcome what seems to be considered a major flaw in Melee's game design is somewhat ridiculous.

Direction of the game: I believe Melee IS that type of game though.


CC'ing:

1. Who would hit someone sitting still with an early aerial or laggy move? What exactly do you mean by "not doing anything" if not just sitting still couching then? As I said before, not sitting still will inherently commit you to something, plus you'll only be ASDI'ing down then, which is much easier to handle in terms of avoiding punishments outright from a regular CC.

2. Just like the mechanic is there always, there are always ways around the mechanic. Punishing reads with grabs on spaced moves or strong/quick ones that are tough to CC punish are necessary at CC/ASDI down %s. Just because it CAN happen doesn't mean it WILL happen either. Again, %s come into play here. In the exact same scenario a smash is much safer if it will hit at mid to high %s than it will be at low %s due to lag on the smash and the CC'er being able to remove some of their stun and punish. When someone is at low percents you merely don't do something that gets your lag punished easily.

3. Is this part of the "jumping is a commitment" thing? If so, then my argument against commitments from before applies here again. I'd only change it so that you could also say that most characters have solid ground approaches as well, and that all of them have grabs they can use to bypass the CC if that option becomes overused.


A slight lean towards defensive play may be better, or it may be a slight lean towards offense. I'm not sure, and it may not matter, or vary from person to person. I don't claim to believe that Melee is best played in one and only one way for success, and I think that the sooner people begin to embrace their personal philosophies in fighting games more, the sooner we can have more unique playstyles emerging once again.

 

[Hax]

Peepee's post is HIGHLY Falco-oriented. someone who plays one of the 3 characters I listed as exceptions to my argument (and one of the two god-tier ones, at that) is inherently going to disagree with many of my points. Fox and Falco AKA "mistakes" don't suffer from a variety of problems other characters do.

-not approaching=short term improvement. *Yes any big style change could throw someone off but if your fundamentals don't improve with it then good luck improving much beyond that short-term deal.

is that why Taj significantly improved his game, beat you, beat me, and got 3rd at Genesis the moment he began employing this strategy?

-the timeout and otherwise very lengthy matches seen at Genesis 2 were a result of Hungrybox committing to how he believes he has to play with Jiggz to win, and how much Armada hates Puff. Hbox, by not approaching, forced the match to take a long time because YL has noticeably worse approaches and since he has the projectiles it would be up to Puff to approach anyway(on a purely matchup-based level anyway.....not that I think many would disagree). Did you see any other sets going to time? I'd be very surprised if you did.

you play a character with a projectile, which you're failing to realize sped up** your matches vs Taj because it forced him to keep a close distance. (I call this distance "projectile distance;" it's the space you have to keep between yourself and Fox/Falco so that you can threaten to hit them if they attempt to laser.) this does not exempt Taj, nor anyone else who keeps this distance from their opponent, from playing extremely defensively. he still waited for YOU to make the first move so that he could punish; he just needed to keep the distance so that you couldn't theoretically laser him forever.

**human error is the reason keeping projectile distance speeds up matches; when you're keeping a close distance to your opponent so that you can threaten to interrupt his projectiles, you're also faced with plenty of situations where a shffl'd nair/other approach LOOKS safe but actually isn't. whereas, you would never attempt said approach if your opponent was all the way across the map.

as for Taj vs opponents that either don't have a projectile (me) or have a subpar one (Armada).... LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. said matches literally came down to ~1 minute left on the timer due to both players knowing that whoever made the first move would be putting himself at a huge disadvantage. whoever approached, at best, got 1 hit on their crouch-cancelling opponent and was then forced to flee because the hitstun on the CC'er would expire before the person approaching could combo into anything else.

for example: while everyone else was awestruck, thinking "OMG MEWTWO IN WINNER'S FINALS!!!!1!!11", Scar and i were thoroughly studying Taj vs Armada. this was an extremely tedious task, considering the best combo in this entire set was 2 hits.

2 hits.

Taj fled from Armada for the entirety of games 1 and 2, poking with tilts/aerials whenever Armada would move forward with a move and space it incorrectly. Armada, the combo machine prior to his match with Taj.... did the same. nair -> run away. turnip -> run away. because both players are CC'ing whenever possible, hit and run becomes the best strategy. this is top level melee. what you saw next in GF's was not top level melee; it was Mango being a dumb*ss and throwing the set.

Game 1 was on Yoshi's and lasted 5:16; abnormally long for a game played on Yoshi's.

Game 2 was on Pokemon Stadium, and lasted 7:04. the moment these players were given a bigger stage to work with, their defensive styles truly began to shine. when a game lasts 7+ minutes, it essentially counts as a time out; the only reason it ended before the 8 minute mark is because the person losing (Taj) became forced to approach (and lose as a result).

in Game 3, Taj, realizing he couldn't out-gay Armada, thought he'd try the strategy of approaching. failing to realize that this is the worst strategy (especially with Marth) in the game, Taj got mercilessly ***** the moment he stopped camping and turned off the Gamecube ~3 minutes into the match.

my set vs Taj earlier in winner's bracket, which sadly isn't on Youtube, was virtually identical. both matches lasted 7 minutes, and were entirely hit and run other than 2 combos: in game 1, the one time Taj approached me with an aerial the entire set, he got naired into a near 0-to-death combo / in game 2, i was forced to approach Taj at the very end because the match almost timed out, and got dthrowed -> fsmashed twice by the ledge for my stock. you approach, you lose.

if you aren't Fox, Falco, and in some cases Peach, there is a strong correlation between camping and success that can be witnessed in the aforementioned sets. you're right; I didn't see most sets go to time. what I saw was all the best players' (except for Mango) sets go to time.

You are also forgetting that one of the top players, Mango, has a very effective offensive style. How can the metagame be entirely defensive-based if Mango does well playing so "incorrectly?"

i'd like to emphasize that one of the top players, Mango, has a very effective offensive style. a needle in a haystack isn't going to disprove my theory, Kevin. especially not when this needle is the same person doing TAS-esque stuff and destroying people with Mario a year ago. Mango is, honestly, too good at this game. i can't stress enough how perfectly he plays offense; compare this to the skill necessary to succeed playing defensively, and it becomes a no-brainer than defense > offense in Melee.

-Peach. *I found the use of Peach odd here. Peach has a very difficult time approaching as it is because of her extremely low mobility. She gets camped hard. Just because she has great shield pressure doesn't mean she is necessarily geared towards offense when it is tough for her to catch her opponent in the first place as well as pin them down.

-*I don't really believe Peach's shield pressure is broken either for the simple fact that you can roll away from her and she'd basically have to call the roll in order to get you. Peach's pressure might be great but if the reaction she forces is nearly unpunishable by her then how good is it really?

her priority and attack speed more than makes up for her lack of movement speed. Peach decimates anyone directly in front of her with fc'd nairs and dsmashes, whether they're standing, cc'ing, or shielding. as a Falco player, you have some of the best keepaway/zoning tools vs Peach so naturally you're going to disagree with me. vs non-Fox/Falco, good Peach players certainly have sufficient tools for getting in on the opponent.

even if you roll from Peach's shield pressure and she doesn't react fast enough to directly punish you with a grab/fc nair/dsmash, it is fairly easy for her to react fast enough to run to you so that she's directly in front of you, which is all that matters. as long as Peach is next to her opponent, she can continue her onslaught of fc nair/dsmash/ridiculously good jab/grab. as a Falcon player, I can assure you that Peach is one of the hardest characters to get away from when she has you trapped in shield.

-*I personally believe Melee has the potential to allow for many characters(many more than just the top and high tiers at LEAST) to be aggressive. All of the movement options and great fall speeds and speedy attacks and tough combos that momentum can help out are all wonderful assets that only aggressive play enjoys. Not to mention the stage control advantage granted to aggressive players which exerts its own psychological and, really, physical influence on the opponent. Being backed up against the edge is a difficult position because you can't retreat and, without considering anything else(even though there is much more to consider), one has less options. Aggressive play can, when successful, limit options. How is that wrong or ineffective?

another matter you don't fully comprehend as a Falco player

the fact of the matter is that non-Fox/Falco/Peach characters don't have good shield pressure options once they're on the ground. this means that after they aerial the opponent's shield, it becomes a matter of mindgames/outplaying them, whereas Fox/Falco/Peach have braindead aerial -> shine or fc nair -> dsmash to force the opponent to roll.

some characters don't even have a good aerial to shield pressure with! Marth's fair does next to no shieldstun, Falcon's knee/stomp take way too long while his other options do garbage hitstun, Sheik's shorthop is way too high for her to shield pressure well, etc. offense is simply illogical with these characters; anyone playing defensively with good reaction time won't even struggle vs your shield pressure (unless, like I said before, you do phenomenal sh*t with these characters)

god i wish i played Falco

-*Spacie shield pressure isn't actually safe, if you're going by frames. There's more than a few frames to punish too, so as long as one knows the holes in shield pressure then it is simply a guessing/conditioning game that can wind up with you feeling too pressured and rolling or you getting the punish on the spacies and scaring them from pressuring/intimidating them from trying for much pressure. On a more human front, spacie pressure is pretty intimidating so it can be tough to always recognize where the holes are. Shield DI and buffering(rolls/spotdodges) can be very helpful with escape though, so that pressure is far from broken. Notice that, for humans, I listed both pro-offensive and pro-defensive traits of spacie shield pressure(aka pros and cons of it). Does this not seem to suggest that pressure is only what the player(s) make of it then?

-Autopilot pressure *basically the pressure can't be autopilot because the frame holes exist. Mixing up pressure, even for Peach becomes essential since frame holes allow for punishments or escapes from the opponent. Because the mixups are required then there is always a solid answer to whatever someone is doing to pressure you, and in that way you have a chance at control. It comes down to who is reading or playing better, not who is spamming the more broken tactic.

yes, there are frame holes. if there weren't, then Fox/Falco/Peach would trap their shielded opponents in an infinite shieldstun and nobody would even dispute them being the 3 best characters in the game and they would be banned from competitive play.

frame holes don't exempt Fox/Falco/Peach shield pressure from being broken.

I want you to tell me what OOS options my character (or anyone without a ridiculously fast aerial that covers the entire space in front of you a la Fox/Falco nair or Peach/nair) can do about them when the shield pressurer is spacing/timing his moves appropriately.

NOTHING

-Crouch-canceling *This is a really good argument in itself for defensive play. To assume this also includes ASDI down when getting hit by a move even if you're acting, CC'ing can reverse otherwise free combo situations around on the attacker. Instead of viewing this as a need to play defensively though, I see it as another layer/option to get around when approaching, or rather I'd try to get someone moving when I approach them so they couldn't really CC/focus on CC'ing. It must also be noted that CC is % dependent, meaning only useful things can be done from CCs at lower percents and at higher percents it won't work.

yeah, when I say CC'ing it includes ASDI down. wanna see something that disgusted me? 3:38 in Taj vs Armada. Taj does his famous usmash taunt, giving Armada a CLEAN HIT on him. in any other game, Taj would have eaten a ton of damage because Armada would have landed his best punish. but since this is Melee and defense is OP, Armada's best punish was a single nair because Taj ASDI'd it. it turns out he could've followed the nair with a dash attack for some additional damage, but he would've had to react to the ASDI down. even then, that's an extremely weak punish granted Armada had a clean hit on Taj.

-SDI *This is a wonderful defensive layer I'm glad was added into the game. Giving many unique DI options and allowing people to survive by understanding when they will be hit moments before they are is pretty cool to me. Falco's combos would also be ******** without SDI LOL. But yeah SDI doesn't necessarily negate combo starters as most people are trying to avoid the hit not SDI it when they get hit(especially at low %s). Besides, SDI'ing away often puts you offstage which is a position where you can't really play defensively anymore because you must recover. Just because you can SDI out of a combo doesn't mean you are out of it. If I SDI hard up against Marth as pretty much anyone then I'm far from free because I still have the juggling potential that Marth's high priority Uair and uptilt in particular grant him when he gets his opponent above him.

SDI can be wonderful, but it can also be hell. the example you gave is pro SDI; I agree that being able to SDI out of Falco's combos is healthy for the game. being able to SDI the 2nd hit of Falcon's nair, the ONLY relatively fast move he has that combos into grab, however, is not. when Mango and I played Falcon ditto friendlies at Pound 4, the few good nairs we got on each other (due to how hard it is to land both hits) often didn't go into grab because we would just SDI up and away from each other. that is just dumb.

-Except fox throwing backward *Fox's bthrow sets up for great shine kills so nah. Falco gets away with some silly Bthrow gimps occasionally too.

just wanted to say that I respect your ability to acknowledge parts of my argument that you truly agree with, rather than skip them and take an entirely negative stance against my theory.

that being said, this concerns Melee's equivalent of a corner: the ledge. specifically, it concerns the risk top tier characters run in getting themselves cornered: not much. turning the tides on your opponent who has you cornered is too easy, sometimes even favorable, with characters like Sheik/Marth/Jiggs/Peach. it's bad to get cornered as Fox/Falco, but they still have stupid reversal options such as the ones you mentioned.

even the characters with poor reversal options such as C. Falcon still have access to the plethora of escape mechanisms Melee grants you: fullhopping over the opponent, running straight through the opponent (you can't do this in traditional fighters, which makes cornering MUCH stronger in them), ledgehop -> 180 degree [perfect] waveland -> roll into the stage, etc. the fact that you can just run straight through them is really what kills it. cornering yourself in this game is nowhere near as deadly as it is in traditional fighters, thus, encouraging defensive play.

-*Sheik can have the edge taken from her ledgestall and she could either die or at least get her big recovery lag hit for it. Sheik's grab range isn't broken as it is smaller than Marth's, whose grab range is actually huge. Sheik's edgeguarding can also be beaten, even if it is quite effective. Besides, being in an edgeguard position is usually unfavorable to the guy recovering anyway. I'd think it would favor defense more if the guy getting knocked off didn't have to worry about his recovery much and didn't have to feel pressured by the edge that he could die.

Jman vs Amsah

S2J vs M2K

the majority of characters don't have anything remotely broken enough by the ledge to make it worth running the risk of getting bthrow gimped by Sheik, who has ridiculous grab range (idk what you're talking about) and edgeguarding. it's MUCH more logical to fight Sheik in the middle of the stage.

-*Peach's recovery is hardly broken. She is a floaty character with a good recovery, but being completely helpless during her up-B is very far from a broken characteristic. She can mix in a drop that she is still entirely vulnerable doing and that's it.

she's not as good as Marth/Sheik/Jiggs by the ledge, but she's still very good. dsmash becomes even more bullsh*t by the ledge (instant death if you don't perfectly space around her CC even once), and her recovery is fairly good if she's able to recover high.

-*Puff likes gimping people but it is not especially easy for her. She has pound and bthrow onstage, and so long as you bait her out a little then you should be very safe from both. If anything, Jiggz can only retreat to the edge if she tries to space vs you there, so just let her run there or let her try to push out and you'll be fine.

you must be forgetting Jigglypuff's pseudo-invincible ledgestall that the majority of the cast has no response to and deserves to be banned from competitive play

or her bthrow -> instant death vs most characters

or that she can't be edgeguarded; this strips the very purpose you'd want to corner your opponent in the first place

-Citing top players *Again, this is how the better players have turned out. The better players in 03-07 were primarily aggressive ones, so who's to say that the game suddenly changed, or maybe it was us instead? If a great SF player(forgot the name it's been a while) quit SF because everyone was getting campy recently, and if 64 is getting campier when it looked primarily aggro and it's been out longer than Melee, then doesn't that just sound like the metagame, the PEOPLE, have shifted that way instead of necessarily believing that that is what defines Melee?

it was honestly Brawl that shifted our metagame so much. when Melee players tried Brawl, an undeniably campy game, in 2008, we unintentionally returned to Melee with newly acquired defensive tactics under our belts. the "hit and run" theme that dominates Brawl rubbed off on us, and has since proved to be just as effective in our game (as well as Smash 64 too, apparently).

March 9th, 2008 was a ****ing horrible day

-*If one jumps in at a bad time in Melee, then either delaying an aerial or double jumping away will be safe the vast majority of the time. Most people space away from the big aerial move, especially when they see someone jump. Why would they be ready to attack a double jump they never see anyone do? If you make an error in judgment while jumping in, then unless you DJ at the very last second when they were starting to come in anyway and will follow your jump, then you will probably be fine. Obviously, if you make that error in judgment a lot then I question if we are still discussing high level play here, but an emergency double jump back once a set or so is perfectly safe for the most part(you could still be pressured after it though). Jumping in, in general, can be very effective as it establishes the threat of that particular move and by forcing your opponent to respect it you can determine how to punish their reaction the next time you're at that spacing instead of using that same move the same way again asking to be punished(in your case it sounds like going in hard with a move getting DD grabbed is how you use things a lot and I'd say that's a bad idea yeah).

For the record, my stance of Melee is you need a healthy balance to be successful, or maybe you have a slight lean towards defensive or aggressive play. Being able to understand and utilize tools related to both offensive and defensive tactics is key, regardless.

these two quotes concern human error, which is something i've learned a lot about through this discussion. I somewhat agree with you here, Kevin, and I'm going to amend my thesis as a result. I'll explain first.

the jump you just described is a bait. when 2 theoretically perfect machines play, baiting is entirely useless because they are both playing entirely on reaction and, in this case, your jump will be reacted to on the same frame by an appropriate anti-air move. something I've been trying to establish throughout this thread is that when one person is on the ground, and his opponent is in the air next to them, the person on the ground wins the tradeoff at theoretically perfect play. I have not changed my mind about this.

when 2 humans play, however, baiting is necessary in order to force your opponent into a punishable situation, i.e. L-cancel lag. when 2 pros play, why would one of them ever recklessly whiff an aerial, knowing that he will be punished for it?

because of this dilemma, a more accurate way to describe the way I envision optimal human play would be "fake offense." meaning, generally defensive play with occasional baits that attempt to trick your opponent into doing something offensive and making himself punishable. the most elementary example would be dashdancing forward, then backward, then forward again to bait -> grab an aerial; of course, 10 years into the game, we see far more complex baits than this one - it was just an example.

I wouldn't call it a "healthy balance" between offense/defense (which is what Kevin calls it). I'd call it defense designed to look like a healthy balance between offense/defense in order to trick your opponent into making mistakes.

 

[Mew2King]

2 things I want to say

1) hit and run is NOT the best in a LOT of situations. The best is hit, then try to FOLLOW THROUGH YOUR ADVANTAGE SITUATION AS LONG AS POSSIBLE (either in a combo or keeping them in a bad position). This does not apply to jigglypuff and floaties (as much) sadly. Hit and run is best vs Jigglypuff since she's immune to big combos unless she puts herself in a really bad position somehow. Best way to beat puff is to be willing to time her out if it comes down to it (or know all of hbox's habits like mango does, although I think a lot of that came from mango being a puff main originally. I'll admit I'm really good vs fox and marth probably because I used to main them so I understand a lot about them. Might help a bit?).

2) PP, Hax is right when he says that other characters do not have as good of shield pressure. Falco can choose between super aggro and super campy and play both successfully. Fox can do this too. Peach can do this IN A SMALL SPACE. Most other top characters have to be defensive though to be played at their best.

But Hax, I do think Sheik has better shield pressure than you think slightly (not even CLOSE to peach/falco/fox though). I just see how they react after I get a hit (like if they like to roll away or whatever I'll start reading it later). Oh also, I'm willing to sit at the edge the entire game, but that's how I just play smash in general. Sorry you don't like it, but I play to win.

a cool trick against sheik and characters that Jab right when they land is to just mash crouch cancel grab (well shield grab, by holding R and mashing A while holding downwards). You can successfully shield grab sometimes if they mess up, but also if they jab right when they land, you're still mashing crouch cancel grab so you can still grab them. This will probably work against me telling you guys this though <_<

 

[King Funk]

More defensive than Brawl? LOL are you ****ing kidding me?

I know you're biased because European 64 is way more defensive, and from what I've heard European Brawl is more aggressive, but still.

Just as an example, Isai is our best player and he is aggressive as all hell.

I guess I might be biased.

When it comes to Isai, I always had the idea that the best players of a game can often play any way they want, even if it's not optimal, and still win/get excellent results.

Ew. I remember watching that entire thing, back in the day...

Yeah, Hyrule sucks and Europe is whack. It's disingenuous to say that that's representative of competitive 64, because most tourney matches look nothing like that.

Well Isai vs Gerson in Peru or Isai vs Boom Genesis 2 matches ended up being pretty long and campy, for the most part.

I almost never had a tourney match/serious set vs a good player that didn't end up being a waiting game near the edge.

 

[Hax]

2 things I want to say

1) hit and run is NOT the best in a LOT of situations. The best is hit, then try to FOLLOW THROUGH YOUR ADVANTAGE SITUATION AS LONG AS POSSIBLE (either in a combo or keeping them in a bad position). This does not apply to jigglypuff and floaties (as much) sadly. Hit and run is best vs Jigglypuff since she's immune to big combos unless she puts herself in a really bad position somehow. Best way to beat puff is to be willing to time her out if it comes down to it.

this is a better way to put it. it just so happens that, most of the time, there isn't an advantage to follow through with because of how good people are at utilizing CCing/SDI these days. but when they mess up and occasions arise, yes i 100% agree

2) PP, Hax is right when he says that other characters do not have as good of shield pressure. Falco can choose between super aggro and super campy and play both successfully. Fox can do this too. Peach can do this IN A SMALL SPACE. Most other top characters have to be defensive though to be played at their best. But Hax, I do think Sheik has better shield pressure than you think slightly. I just see how they react after I get a hit. Oh also, I'm willing to sit at the edge the entire game, but that's how I just play smash in general. Sorry you don't like it, but I play to win.

Jason, i admire your play in some ways. don't ever take it personally if i get aggravated by it. in general, there's no hate directed towards anyone in this thread. everyone i've mentioned in my posts should take it as a compliment; i'm acknowledging you/other top placers for furthering our metagame.

as lame as Smash gets, defining the optimal strategies for human play can be very interesting.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

Oh also, I'm willing to sit at the edge the entire game, but that's how I just play smash in general. Sorry you don't like it, but I play to win.

hopefully you're having fun while you "play to win", playing to win is fun for me, but not when it gets to the point where i'm winning by baiting people by the ledge all day, or doing something over-the-top gay to get the win

might as well go get a job and work2makemoney

 

[Mew2King]

Honestly, I do enjoy camping the edge, throwing people off, and gimping them. I'm serious lol

but i don't really do that as much as you think. Mainly just fast fallers since it's so effective vs them. Usually I like Fairing at times I think are good, and seeing how they react OOS or something (I guess instinctively catch onto what they do?)

I wouldn't really call what I do gay. That's just what bitter people who don't play like me would call it. It's just really effective.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

Honestly, I do enjoy camping the edge, throwing people off, and gimping them. I'm serious lol

but i don't really do that as much as you think. Mainly just fast fallers since it's so effective vs them. Usually I like Fairing at times I think are good, and seeing how they react OOS or something (I guess instinctively catch onto what they do?)

I wouldn't really call what I do gay. That's just what bitter people who don't play like me would call it. It's just really effective.

i wasn't referring to you at all when i mentioned 'over-the-top gay', i just was emphasizing lame play in general.

i completely get enjoying what you do, i know other people who feel exactly the same about playing like that, you're just one of the best at it.

 

[Hax]

lmao i love u jason

 

[da K.I.D.]

i learned a lot from this thread

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

it's so fun reading top level players argue/discuss ****. it doesn't happen enough here. usually it's just pro's telling lower level players the business

 

[adumbrodeus]

Is Hax's vision technically possible though? Theory is great until it is taken too far(we all know not to do it too much with matchups, so why would it be any different with broad generalizations about Melee?)

No, I don't per say. His concept is sound but I think he's taking it farther then is practical because he's discounting the importance of having aggression as an option.

Technically doing anything makes you committed. I'm not sure why that matters. If you dash then you commit to a dash. You can't do an Fsmash out of a dash but no one is bothering to worry about reduced options out of a dash in this discussion.

Yes, everything makes you committed, but it's a matter of how committed it makes you, and how many options you get in return.

Compare dashing in melee to dashing in brawl for example, why is walking utilized so much more in brawl then in melee (beyond tripping which is pretty trivial because of the low odds)? I know you know brawl well enough to understand exactly what I'm getting at.

Why does defense beat offense "per se?"

I'd argue defensive play is inherently predictable(or at least moreso than offense) because you're using less space.

Not if you're still directly attempting to space against the opponent and still punishing them if they let you in your optimal spacing.


This is really the rub of why the metagame will never develop into exactly what hax says, even though it definately will lean into that direction more. If you never are willing to take aggressive action and aggressively space your opponent can easily crowd you out and you've essentially let them inside without even really giving them a fight.

On Mango:

I believe that skill gap has been dramatically reduced from before. Where's your proof Mango is so much better he can get away with these "amazing reads?" He hasn't won a tournament since Pound 4.
Mango is a top player, I wouldn't dare say otherwise, but to suggest he's so much better than everyone else that he can overcome what seems to be considered a major flaw in Melee's game design is somewhat ridiculous.

Hence him starting to show his age at this point, I think unless he develops defensive proficiency I think he will ultimately fall from the ranks of top players as hungry new players learn the reading skills he has and are more willing to play defensively.

Direction of the game: I believe Melee IS that type of game though.

Then I believe we have a fundamental disagreement.

CC'ing:

1. Who would hit someone sitting still with an early aerial or laggy move? What exactly do you mean by "not doing anything" if not just sitting still couching then? As I said before, not sitting still will inherently commit you to something, plus you'll only be ASDI'ing down then, which is much easier to handle in terms of avoiding punishments outright from a regular CC.

Firstly, I'm actually talking about them in terms of separate situations because it's relatively rare to encounter both effects at the same time. You're right, people don't get hit with laggy moves out of standing position, they get hit out of them because they did something and got called out.

Secondly, stronger CC'ing works in standing position, walking, and I would assume any frame of a run that is run cancelable.



Honestly though, I don't have the reaction time nor the tools to test this myself, so I have to ask, can you CC mid-hitstun. I believe it's possible, and if so, a number of moves that would not normally be CC'able on reaction become CC'able. In addition, people can CC before they know they got hit, essentially as soon as they know that they messed about their spacing.

2. Just like the mechanic is there always, there are always ways around the mechanic. Punishing reads with grabs on spaced moves or strong/quick ones that are tough to CC punish are necessary at CC/ASDI down %s. Just because it CAN happen doesn't mean it WILL happen either. Again, %s come into play here. In the exact same scenario a smash is much safer if it will hit at mid to high %s than it will be at low %s due to lag on the smash and the CC'er being able to remove some of their stun and punish. When someone is at low percents you merely don't do something that gets your lag punished easily.

Absolutely agreed, I'm only pointing out that it's mere existence pushes the game to a more defensive game.

3. Is this part of the "jumping is a commitment" thing? If so, then my argument against commitments from before applies here again. I'd only change it so that you could also say that most characters have solid ground approaches as well, and that all of them have grabs they can use to bypass the CC if that option becomes overused.

Yea it is, talked about above.

Ground approaches do tend to be laggier and therefore more punishable in general, but the point does stand that there are options against CC. Again, none of these issues are in the aether, no one point makes melee defensive. It's just that collectively, these points together make it tend to favor defense.

A slight lean towards defensive play may be better, or it may be a slight lean towards offense. I'm not sure, and it may not matter, or vary from person to person. I don't claim to believe that Melee is best played in one and only one way for success, and I think that the sooner people begin to embrace their personal philosophies in fighting games more, the sooner we can have more unique playstyles emerging once again.

And I disagree, I think too many factors in melee in general make it lean significantly toward defense.

At the same time, being defensive isn't the same thing as not having a vibrant metagame, and the fact that melee significantly rewards baiting and occasionally going on offense while playing a generally defensive game means that it will always have a very vibrant metagame.

because of this dilemma, a more accurate way to describe the way I envision optimal human play would be "fake offense." meaning, generally defensive play with occasional baits that attempt to trick your opponent into doing something offensive and making himself punishable. the most elementary example would be dashdancing forward, then backward, then forward again to bait -> grab an aerial; of course, 10 years into the game, we see far more complex baits than this one - it was just an example.

I wouldn't call it a "healthy balance" between offense/defense (which is what Kevin calls it). I'd call it defense designed to look like a healthy balance between offense/defense in order to trick your opponent into making mistakes.

I like the way you put this, it essentially mirrors my views. The only real issue I have is that it discounts occasionally going on the offense to push the opponent in order to maintain space or as a read.


Honestly, I don't see what's so dreary about a proposed metagame where the balance is between defense and fake offense (with occasional legit offense).

 

[:Tally Hoes]

I'm sorry I couldnt read your whole post its just plain painful on a phone i'll get to it later when I can. However on the mewtwo vs peach thing I noted many problems with said debate. D-tilt fair upair happened in those matches i do in fact believe. But peach forces defense in most cases so in most mus will be defense. Most match-ups are more defensive but normally still have use some use for approaching. It would be nuts to see ics not approaching in dittos like de-synced ice blocks as a test of who can mash b a little faster

 

[Mew2King]

I would approach more if I had falco's SHL but with sheik or marth. I don't think attacking their shield with pressure counts as offensive play much. Having a shine or float cancel gives HUGE advantage there, where once you hit the shield you have a big advantage. If that counts as being aggressive then every peach and falco and fox player is aggressive.

PP I think if you didn't main Falco, you would see that -MOST- (majority) of characters are better defensively for the most part. Falco has better tools for approaching (lasers) and safe pressure on them (shine) than anyone else overall. It's not really your fault obviously but I think your view of this is not as good as it would be if you mained every character equally or half the cast equally. Over the years I've played melee I have been able to pick up about half the cast to a really high level (I was bored at home a lot and did it for fun), so that's where I base that off of. (I also think this is my downfall; I never put tons of effort into only 1 character. I only did that in brawl but UH OH LOOK WHAT HAPPENED THERE LOL). Mango just likes to attack because he's all about pressure and his cockiness persona/style, but that doesn't mean it's BETTER (as in, the most efficient way to win). I don't think there is a BIG difference between defense being better than offense, but they certainly aren't equal with MOST characters. With spacies I think it can be pretty close to 50 50 though I would agree on that.

 

[Spelt]

Yes that is offensive. Having huge advantage just means it's a good strategy.

 

[leffen]

Why are people passing on the fact that shielding loses to grabs?
Sheik/Marth/CF can make their opponent shield and just grab them for a huge reward, you know.

 

[Mew2King]

we don't have frame advantage. We risk getting grabbed ourselves if they guess right. The risk to reward ratio isn't in our favor for most characters to do an aerial and then grab right after.

 

[leffen]

1. Falco has a huge disadvantage framewise on his aerial shield pressure.
2. Moves like Sheiks bair/fair and marths fair force your opponent to shield which makes it easy to catch them when they exit their shield or just doing a empty and grabbing them.

 

[Mew2King]

huge disadvantage? They can only be shield grabbed if they do an immediately rising aerial AND don't drift backwards while doing it. There is some guesswork in pressure but falco has more of an advantage than the person shielding in terms of options and risk/reward scenarios overall dude, by quite a bit. You can mix up delayed aerials (This is the easiest to punish, so I don't recommend doing this a lot tbch), shine to retreating aerials (overall the best imo, as only a fair OOS and maybe WD grab/quick attack can punish it, and you have to predict it pretty much), and shine-grabs really well just by those 3 things alone (possibly the best 3 options?)

 

[Dr Peepee]

Peepee's post is HIGHLY Falco-oriented. someone who plays one of the 3 characters I listed as exceptions to my argument (and one of the two god-tier ones, at that) is inherently going to disagree with many of my points. Fox and Falco AKA "mistakes" don't suffer from a variety of problems other characters do.



is that why Taj significantly improved his game, beat you, beat me, and got 3rd at Genesis the moment he began employing this strategy?



you play a character with a projectile, which you're failing to realize sped up** your matches vs Taj because it forced him to keep a close distance. (I call this distance "projectile distance;" it's the space you have to keep between yourself and Fox/Falco so that you can threaten to hit them if they attempt to laser.) this does not exempt Taj, nor anyone else who keeps this distance from their opponent, from playing extremely defensively. he still waited for YOU to make the first move so that he could punish; he just needed to keep the distance so that you couldn't theoretically laser him forever.

**human error is the reason keeping projectile distance speeds up matches; when you're keeping a close distance to your opponent so that you can threaten to interrupt his projectiles, you're also faced with plenty of situations where a shffl'd nair/other approach LOOKS safe but actually isn't. whereas, you would never attempt said approach if your opponent was all the way across the map.

as for Taj vs opponents that either don't have a projectile (me) or have a subpar one (Armada).... LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. said matches literally came down to ~1 minute left on the timer due to both players knowing that whoever made the first move would be putting himself at a huge disadvantage. whoever approached, at best, got 1 hit on their crouch-cancelling opponent and was then forced to flee because the hitstun on the CC'er would expire before the person approaching could combo into anything else.

for example: while everyone else was awestruck, thinking "OMG MEWTWO IN WINNER'S FINALS!!!!1!!11", Scar and i were thoroughly studying Taj vs Armada. this was an extremely tedious task, considering the best combo in this entire set was 2 hits.

2 hits.

Taj fled from Armada for the entirety of games 1 and 2, poking with tilts/aerials whenever Armada would move forward with a move and space it incorrectly. Armada, the combo machine prior to his match with Taj.... did the same. nair -> run away. turnip -> run away. because both players are CC'ing whenever possible, hit and run becomes the best strategy. this is top level melee. what you saw next in GF's was not top level melee; it was Mango being a dumb*ss and throwing the set.

Game 1 was on Yoshi's and lasted 5:16; abnormally long for a game played on Yoshi's.

Game 2 was on Pokemon Stadium, and lasted 7:04. the moment these players were given a bigger stage to work with, their defensive styles truly began to shine. when a game lasts 7+ minutes, it essentially counts as a time out; the only reason it ended before the 8 minute mark is because the person losing (Taj) became forced to approach (and lose as a result).

in Game 3, Taj, realizing he couldn't out-gay Armada, thought he'd try the strategy of approaching. failing to realize that this is the worst strategy (especially with Marth) in the game, Taj got mercilessly ***** the moment he stopped camping and turned off the Gamecube ~3 minutes into the match.

my set vs Taj earlier in winner's bracket, which sadly isn't on Youtube, was virtually identical. both matches lasted 7 minutes, and were entirely hit and run other than 2 combos: in game 1, the one time Taj approached me with an aerial the entire set, he got naired into a near 0-to-death combo / in game 2, i was forced to approach Taj at the very end because the match almost timed out, and got dthrowed -> fsmashed twice by the ledge for my stock. you approach, you lose.

if you aren't Fox, Falco, and in some cases Peach, there is a strong correlation between camping and success that can be witnessed in the aforementioned sets. you're right; I didn't see most sets go to time. what I saw was all the best players' (except for Mango) sets go to time.



i'd like to emphasize that one of the top players, Mango, has a very effective offensive style. a needle in a haystack isn't going to disprove my theory, Kevin. especially not when this needle is the same person doing TAS-esque stuff and destroying people with Mario a year ago. Mango is, honestly, too good at this game. i can't stress enough how perfectly he plays offense; compare this to the skill necessary to succeed playing defensively, and it becomes a no-brainer than defense > offense in Melee.





her priority and attack speed more than makes up for her lack of movement speed. Peach decimates anyone directly in front of her with fc'd nairs and dsmashes, whether they're standing, cc'ing, or shielding. as a Falco player, you have some of the best keepaway/zoning tools vs Peach so naturally you're going to disagree with me. vs non-Fox/Falco, good Peach players certainly have sufficient tools for getting in on the opponent.

even if you roll from Peach's shield pressure and she doesn't react fast enough to directly punish you with a grab/fc nair/dsmash, it is fairly easy for her to react fast enough to run to you so that she's directly in front of you, which is all that matters. as long as Peach is next to her opponent, she can continue her onslaught of fc nair/dsmash/ridiculously good jab/grab. as a Falcon player, I can assure you that Peach is one of the hardest characters to get away from when she has you trapped in shield.



another matter you don't fully comprehend as a Falco player

the fact of the matter is that non-Fox/Falco/Peach characters don't have good shield pressure options once they're on the ground. this means that after they aerial the opponent's shield, it becomes a matter of mindgames/outplaying them, whereas Fox/Falco/Peach have braindead aerial -> shine or fc nair -> dsmash to force the opponent to roll.
some characters don't even have a good aerial to shield pressure with! Marth's fair does next to no shieldstun, Falcon's knee/stomp take way too long while his other options do garbage hitstun, Sheik's shorthop is way too high for her to shield pressure well, etc. offense is simply illogical with these characters; anyone playing defensively with good reaction time won't even struggle vs your shield pressure (unless, like I said before, you do phenomenal sh*t with these characters)

god i wish i played Falco





yes, there are frame holes. if there weren't, then Fox/Falco/Peach would trap their shielded opponents in an infinite shieldstun and nobody would even dispute them being the 3 best characters in the game and they would be banned from competitive play.
frame holes don't exempt Fox/Falco/Peach shield pressure from being broken.
what I want you to tell me what OOS options my character (or anyone without a ridiculously fast aerial that covers the entire space in front of you a la Fox/Falco nair or Peach/nair) can do about them when the shield pressurer is spacing/timing his moves appropriately.

NOTHING



yeah, when I say CC'ing it includes ASDI down. wanna see something that disgusted me? 3:38 in Taj vs Armada. Taj does his famous usmash taunt, giving Armada a CLEAN HIT on him. in any other game, Taj would have eaten a ton of damage because Armada would have landed his best punish. but since this is Melee and defense is OP, Armada's best punish was a single nair. it turns out he could've followed the nair with a dash attack for some additional damage, but he would've had to react to the ASDI down. even then, that's an extremely weak punish granted Armada had a clean hit on Taj.



SDI can be wonderful, but it can also be hell. the example you gave is pro SDI; I agree that being able to SDI out of Falco's combos is healthy for the game. being able to SDI the 2nd hit of Falcon's nair, the ONLY relatively fast move he has that combos into grab, however, is not. when Mango and I played Falcon ditto friendlies at Pound 4, the few good nairs we got on each other (due to how hard it is to land both hits) often didn't go into grab because we would just SDI up and away from each other. that is just dumb.



just wanted to say that I respect your ability to acknowledge parts of my argument that you truly agree with, rather than skip them and take an entirely negative stance against my theory.

that being said, this concerns Melee's equivalent of a corner: the ledge. specifically, it concerns the risk top tier characters run in getting themselves cornered: not much. turning the tides on your opponent who has you cornered is too easy, sometimes even favorable, with characters like Sheik/Marth/Jiggs/Peach. it's bad to get cornered as Fox/Falco, but they still have stupid reversal options such as the ones you mentioned.
even the characters with poor reversal options such as C. Falcon still have access to the plethora of escape mechanisms Melee grants you: fullhopping over the opponent, running straight through the opponent (you can't do this in traditional fighters, which makes cornering MUCH stronger in them), ledgehop -> 180 degree [perfect] waveland -> roll into the stage, etc. the fact that you can just run straight through them is really what kills it. the fact that cornering yourself in this game is nowhere near as deadly as it is in traditional fighters encourages defensive play.



Jman vs Amsah

S2J vs M2K

the majority of characters don't have anything remotely broken enough by the ledge to make it worth running the risk of getting bthrow gimped by Sheik, who has ridiculous grab range (idk what you're talking about) and edgeguarding. it's MUCH more logical to fight Sheik in the middle of the stage.



she's not as good as Marth/Sheik/Jiggs by the ledge, but she's still very good. dsmash becomes even more bullsh*t by the ledge (instant death if you don't perfectly space around her CC even once), and her recovery is fairly good if she's able to recover high.



you must be forgetting Jigglypuff's pseudo-invincible ledgestall that the majority of the cast has no response to and deserves to be banned from competitive play

or her bthrow -> instant death vs most characters

or that she can't be edgeguarded; this strips the very purpose you'd want to corner your opponent in the first place



it was honestly Brawl that shifted our metagame so much. when Melee players tried Brawl, an undeniably campy game, in 2008, we unintentionally returned to Melee with newly acquired defensive tactics under our belts. the "hit and run" theme that dominates Brawl rubbed off on us, and has since proved to be just as effective in our game (as well as Smash 64 too, apparently).

March 9th, 2008 was a ****ing horrible day





these two quotes concern human error, which is something i've learned a lot about through this discussion. I somewhat agree with you here, Kevin, and I'm going to amend my thesis as a result. I'll explain first.

the jump you just described is a bait. when 2 theoretically perfect machines play, baiting is entirely useless because they are both playing entirely on reaction and, in this case, your jump will be reacted to on the same frame by an appropriate anti-air move. something I've been trying to establish throughout this thread is that when one person is on the ground, and his opponent is in the air next to them, the person on the ground wins the tradeoff at theoretically perfect play. I have not changed my mind about this.

when 2 humans play, however, baiting is necessary in order to force your opponent into a punishable situation, i.e. L-cancel lag. when 2 pros play, why would one of them ever recklessly whiff an aerial, knowing that he will be punished for it?

because of this dilemma, a more accurate way to describe the way I envision optimal human play would be "fake offense." meaning, generally defensive play with occasional baits that attempt to trick your opponent into doing something offensive and making himself punishable. the most elementary example would be dashdancing forward, then backward, then forward again to bait -> grab an aerial; of course, 10 years into the game, we see far more complex baits than this one - it was just an example.

I wouldn't call it a "healthy balance" between offense/defense (which is what Kevin calls it). I'd call it defense designed to look like a healthy balance between offense/defense in order to trick your opponent into making mistakes.

We should leave bias out of this. If you believe that this is because I play Falco and you play Falcon then we won't get anywhere. Let's focus on the actual discussion at hand.


Taj started practicing again if I recall correctly. Practicing and having lots of experience usually allows you to succeed, and with a good but underappreciated character like Marth it's entirely possible to take many people by surprise.


I was close against Taj because I wanted to be close. When I tried to shoot lasers at him he just powershielded them. Taj also made advances as well I'm sure. If you'd like I could pick through the set and find examples of his approaches for you.

If you're close to someone, and if they can't react to your approach because it's too fast or it's fast and they are also preoccupied trying to maneuver around to avoid being predictable as well as read you, then I'd say there are approaches you can't react to at closer spacings. Of course you wouldn't try for an approach across the stage lol. The entire point of an approach is to hit the opponent and no one would do that from across the stage unless they want to be easily countered.

Mewtwo is pretty bad(therefore he had to play defensively) and Armada didn't really know how to fight Mewtwo(therefore he played how he felt comfortable doing, safely and patiently). This is nothing more to me than typical behavior that should be exhibited by most players in this scenario. Taj went Marth game 3 and the match wasn't close to 7 minutes by the way.

To assert that top level Melee is one low tier vs one defensive player is silly at best. Mewtwo has NO approaching capabilities so it can't be helped that he played defensively. And sure, more players play defensively now, but at least they have more options to attack and not run the timer out, unlike what Mewtwo can do. Armada, again, didn't have experience in the matchup, which is another extreme rarity at top level play. Two players having extensive knowledge of the other player and his character is much closer to a typical top level match archetype, and to suggest much beyond that general structure is pretty odd.

In game 3 of Taj vs Armada, Taj picked Marth. Marth is a few tiers above Mewtwo, and therefore entirely capable of approaching. Because Taj had the option to approach, he did. Armada is a better player than Taj(as of this writing based on results if nothing else) so the result was the same as before, only much faster because Armada knew how to combo and otherwise handle Marth. That and Taj approached as he probably prefers to do when he gets the opportunity.

So, since Taj vs Armada and Armada vs Hbox "went to time" you can safely conclude that ALL of them do? You even have to include Mango in your disclaimer, so that isn't really a strong assertion. At least go by majors from this year to have a halfway decent sample to choose from(even though M2K and Hbox need more representation because Armada is in all of these lol). Did my sets with Armada go to time?



There aren't that many top players LOL. 1 playing very aggressively and being successful is a good argument against this theory if he's at least 10% of the top player population. He can defy what you think is an insurmountable obstacle, which is the ultimately defensive nature of Melee. 10%+ can defy your theory, so are you comfortable making that claim despite aggressive play's continuous presence in top play?

I believe defensive play takes quite a bit of skill to play too. Just because Mango is moving quickly doesn't mean the tactic is dead or beyond our reach or beyond a reasonable defensive response. Armada gave Mango a solid response for a lot of his aggressive play, so there's reason to believe Mango isn't leagues beyond everyone in skill anymore.


I'm disagreeing with you openly because I think your view is wrong and worse to spread around. I have no problem with you actually having that opinion and am okay with you holding it so long as you don't try to claim it as awful and/or push it onto other people like this. That's what I have with this, not playing Falco or whatever character bias you want to drag into this. Calling motives aside, can you PLEASE stick to regular discourse? This is really aggravating to read "god I wish I was a Falco player...."


Now then, if you can maneuver around Peach and force her to commit to you or stay camped, then isn't that a great strategy? You could be just out of her range with Marth, or running circles/spacing around her with Falcon or some other tactic but it doesn't matter how good her priority is TO AN EXTENT because it's hard to POSITION that priority properly, especially while staying reasonably safe(worry about overextending still exists).

I don't doubt Peach is HARD to get away from. Any good character/player is difficult to avoid when they're pressuring you correctly. My statement is that you put lots of strain on Peach by forcing her to try to react early to/predict rolls or moves OOS because she is simply TOO SLOW to directly punish otherwise. Yes, this INCLUDES staying on top of someone. Consider having to worry about grabs, rolls, and aerials OOS(all characters have these options btw) all at once with a slow character. Does this sound EASY to react to and predict? Assuming reasonable mixups, then Peach pressure is still entirely possible to escape on a roll away, as Peach has PLENTY of things she must be prepared for as well(consider Peach FC Nair'ing your shield and starting to dash through you, only to get shield grabbed and throw comboed to death.....something worth respecting? I think so).


Marth players use range to intimidate their opponents into shielding/being afraid. Sheik players have Fair shield pressure that can lead to grabs or jab stuffs or shield stab Fairs. Just because she has a higher jump doesn't make it bad. People can be conditioned to shield. Her bigger SH allows her to avoid some counterattacks too, did you think of that? Falcon has spaced, strong hitting moves like knee that allow for safe jabs if nothing else and a grab on mixup(although spacing is still very powerful for him). Falcon's knee isn't that slow, but if you want to give up that frame advantage and go for safer spacing on shield for pressure that's cool too. It still works the shield and forces a reaction from the opponent. Those are 3 examples off the top of my head that work as shield pressure mixups IN THE SAME MANNER AS THE SPACIES AND PEACH'S SHIELD PRESSURE.

Fox's shield pressure gets worse the more his shine decays. Did you know that? Fox can ACTUALLY GET SHIELD GRABBED out of his shine grab, even when done PERFECTLY. Falco has a lot slower of a jump than Fox, so in addition to the shine staling problem(though not quite as severe), he has a slower overall manner of shield pressuring. THIS LEADS TO BOTH SPACIES' SHIELD PRESSURE GAMES TO BE UNSAFE, before considering anything else like spacing or conditioning or other human factors that go into shield pressure. The fact that you believe their pressure is safe and has to force a roll demonstrates a limited understanding of their(spacies') effectiveness on shields.

Peach is safer on shield from a FC aerial, but she is not safe after committing much beyond that. Her grabs can be dodged, her jabs can be shielded or shield grabbed, her Dsmash can be lightshielded. Anything not done mostly perfectly and you can roll away too, and this is all BEFORE counting shield DI. Add in the fact that Peach is too slow to get a lot of punishes and it's easy to see why her pressure isn't super effective on paper either.


If you think about it, you're actually running against your own argument saying these 3 characters can approach because it makes more sense to say Melee as a whole favors camping or approaching, and the fact that even the best 3 shield pressures in the game aren't safe is a testament to that. To make exceptions at all for offense means that other characters could apply their unsafe shield pressure to some extent as well, and then you have to wonder where you can really draw the line on what's good offense and what's bad offense. I'm fine with you holding to your argument, but I thought I'd offer the suggestion.



When someone is applying pressure well, then you read them! You REVERSE THE SITUATION. That's how you beat ANY kind of pressure unless you're fine resetting to neutral. If you just wanna reset then you roll or jump away. And if you tell me there's no frames to jump or roll out during shield pressure from all 3 of those characters, then you haven't read what I've been writing or you haven't tested it enough.

Everyone, EVEN MANGO, has patterns. Learn to read them, even in pressure, and you'll benefit greatly.

It's really hard to pressure someone when they're reacting appropriately btw. Do you not see how this can get turned on its head so quickly?


If Armada had dash attacked Taj, then he could have set up a tech chase depending on % and Taj still holding down, or he could have juggled/threatened Taj from below. There's not a lot besides teleport Mewtwo can probably do when Peach is under him, with that threatening Uair/Nair. Armada had no clue how to follow up on Taj because, once again, he didn't know the matchup. He took his hit and went about neutral position again because that is how he felt he should play in order to outplay Taj.


Umm, so what if Nair doesn't combo into grab? Use it to lead into something else, or don't use Nair? Falcon also has an insanely fast Uair. It's not like his Nair is somehow worthless because that's how it's DI'd though. Lots of combos from any mediocre % onward can still come from that move. If you're saying it was hard to connect with anyway, then I suppose it's not worth committing to in the first place then, right?


I've agreed with you on a lot of things. Taking your frustration out on me when I'm going over your long argument and missing a point or two isn't going to make you look better.


All of those things you mentioned for ledge play can be beaten by different spacing maneuvers and reactions that are much easier to execute than the escape options you suggest. For example, that run offstage waveland on to roll could be beaten by a SH Sheik Fair that would also cover approaching with a grab and, of course, running straight through Sheik. This is because you can FF at different times in the SH and that allows her to execute the Fair over a longer length of time and remain relatively comfortable. Meanwhile, the character attempting to escape has only as much time as is being given to them by the one with stage control. This PRESSURE exerted on them will cause them to try and escape in the manners you suggested, and it is sufficient to say that any sort of running to take space is like an approach, and an approach with less stage vs a defense with more stage is hardly a good situation, correct? Just because there are some great reversals in this game doesn't make them foolproof at all. You must consider how much better characters that normally just space or zone(sheik and Marth for example) look when pinning their opponents against the edge. Yes, even Captain Falcon, with his Bair walls and spaced Nairs and his delayed Uairs and DD abuse can hold someone in check on reaction quite effectively too.


Jman prefers to play defensively, so of course he wouldn't run to the edge vs Amsah. What if he went over and wavedashed into shield? If amsah attacked his shield in any way then Jman nets a shine and likely a stock. That's not a reversal?

S2J respects M2K on the edge and didn't think M2K would stay there the entire time. So he he just waited M2K out. Since S2J has never experienced someone taking the edge from him and he wanted to play safely, he decided it would be better to fight M2K when M2K regained stage.

I don't really see anything unusual here. These players both respected Sheik on the edge, but was it because the tactic was too good, or because both players had little experience with the technique, or their potential reward for successfully taking the edge from her?

Sheik has a solid grab range, yes, but let's be reasonable when we call it "broken." It has counters, it isn't even the longest in the game, and it won't kill you EVERY time it connects with you despite top sheiks trying to make it so. it is very good, but so are a lot of grabs by the edge. Sheik's grab leads to her edgeguarding, which is great, but we must remember we're discussing the grab itself.


I agree with Peach's Dsmash being good by the edge and her recovery being fairly good if she goes high. HOWEVER, she lacks the mobility to execute many of those options even you listed previously as sound escapes from the edge trap. she can't push or fight her way out from the edge easily because she is slow, and she can't pull a turnip to give her a decent approach out because the pulling animation can be punished or at the least cause Peach to get grabbed if she tries to shield(her quickest safe reaction to an approach after pulling a turnip I'd say). Just because the situation CAN be reversed doesn't mean it is LIKELY to be reversed if the one with stage control plays intelligently.


Puff's edge game is so misunderstood now it's pretty saddening. Puff can't TRULY sweetspot the edge. She has to puff up and jump to grab it. You can HIT HER THEN. So, to get around this, puff players started attacking first THEN going to the edge. So, you just shield the aerial....and then hit puff as she comes down. So, what if she goes up?

Well, that's the same issue as dealing with her recovery, now isn't it? Puff just so happens to be weak from below(Bair hits from the side, after all), so well-timed upward-facing moves like Falcon's Uair can force Puff to try and play low because they don't want you getting free hits and resets on them. When they go low you have uptilt, delayed Bair, knee offstage or connecting with their extended bodybox from a move, or offstage aerials to nail Puff with.


Puff's Bthrow edgeguards can be avoided. DI mixups and when to jump as well as jumping with aerials all serve to make Puff's job quite difficult. Watch Hbox play and see how many Bthrow edgeguards he misses. It's not always as easy as it looks.



Eh I still hold that the people could also be different as well. Our iconic aggressive player, Ken, quit after Brawl came out too. I'm sure that impacted us greatly as a metagame as well. Regardless, I won't ignore the fact that Brawl's gameplay influenced Melee's metagame, because I wouldn't be the player I am today in some ways if it weren't for Brawl.



And I don't know why you cite perfect play, as we will never be perfect. Instead, consider mixups valuable because they are designed to trick players, even at the top level of play. People don't turn into machines in the sense that they can frame-perfectly react once they get to a certain skill level. It may be helpful when considering your ideas to bear in mind just how human all of the players still are.

Your new theory is more acceptable for me. =)

 

[leffen]

I really don't cba discussing this thread anymore, sorry M2K. Too full of saltyness and bias (mainly from hax)

 

[Dr Peepee]

Man leffen I need help F LOL

oh well I'll come back in here and respond more later that last post took forever <.<

 

[leffen]

I dont want to talk with people who are this misinformed and this closed-minded lol and who clearly have very shallow knowledge of whats outside of their characters. Like seriously, have you guys even sat down and thought "what can I do about this "gay" tactic"?

The fact that top players can complain about sheik/puffs ledgestalling just blows my mind.