re-posted from page 12 (roughly 50 posts ago):
Peepee's post is HIGHLY Falco-oriented. someone who plays one of the 3 characters I listed as exceptions to my argument (and one of the two god-tier ones, at that) is inherently going to disagree with many of my points. Fox and Falco AKA "mistakes" don't suffer from a variety of problems other characters do.
-not approaching=short term improvement. *Yes any big style change could throw someone off but if your fundamentals don't improve with it then good luck improving much beyond that short-term deal.
is that why Taj significantly improved his game, beat you, beat me, and got 3rd at Genesis the moment he began employing this strategy?
-the timeout and otherwise very lengthy matches seen at Genesis 2 were a result of Hungrybox committing to how he believes he has to play with Jiggz to win, and how much Armada hates Puff. Hbox, by not approaching, forced the match to take a long time because YL has noticeably worse approaches and since he has the projectiles it would be up to Puff to approach anyway(on a purely matchup-based level anyway.....not that I think many would disagree). Did you see any other sets going to time? I'd be very surprised if you did.
you play a character with a projectile, which you're failing to realize sped up** your matches vs Taj because it forced him to keep a close distance. (I call this distance "projectile distance;" it's the space you have to keep between yourself and Fox/Falco so that you can threaten to hit them if they attempt to laser.) this does not exempt Taj, nor anyone else who keeps this distance from their opponent, from playing extremely defensively. he still waited for YOU to make the first move so that he could punish; he just needed to keep the distance so that you couldn't theoretically laser him forever.
**human error is the reason keeping projectile distance speeds up matches; when you're keeping a close distance to your opponent so that you can threaten to interrupt his projectiles, you're also faced with plenty of situations where a shffl'd nair/other approach LOOKS safe but actually isn't. whereas, you would never attempt said approach if your opponent was all the way across the map.
as for Taj vs opponents that either don't have a projectile (me) or have a subpar one (Armada).... LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. said matches literally came down to ~1 minute left on the timer due to both players knowing that whoever made the first move would be putting himself at a huge disadvantage. whoever approached, at best, got 1 hit on their crouch-cancelling opponent and was then forced to flee because the hitstun on the CC'er would expire before the person approaching could combo into anything else.
for example: while everyone else was awestruck, thinking "OMG MEWTWO IN WINNER'S FINALS!!!!1!!11", Scar and i were thoroughly studying Taj vs Armada. this was an extremely tedious task, considering the best combo in this entire set was 2 hits.
2 hits.
Taj fled from Armada for the entirety of games 1 and 2, poking with tilts/aerials whenever Armada would move forward with a move and space it incorrectly. Armada, the combo machine prior to his match with Taj.... did the same. nair -> run away. turnip -> run away. because both players are CC'ing whenever possible, hit and run becomes the best strategy.
this is top level melee. what you saw next in GF's was not top level melee; it was Mango being a dumb*ss and throwing the set.
Game 1 was on Yoshi's and lasted 5:16; abnormally long for a game played on Yoshi's.
Game 2 was on Pokemon Stadium, and lasted 7:04. the moment these players were given a bigger stage to work with, their defensive styles truly began to shine. when a game lasts 7+ minutes, it essentially counts as a time out; the only reason it ended before the 8 minute mark is because the person losing (Taj) became forced to approach (and lose as a result).
in Game 3, Taj, realizing he couldn't out-gay Armada, thought he'd try the strategy of approaching. failing to realize that this is the worst strategy (especially with Marth) in the game, Taj got mercilessly ***** the moment he stopped camping and turned off the Gamecube ~3 minutes into the match.
my set vs Taj earlier in winner's bracket, which sadly isn't on Youtube, was virtually identical. both matches lasted 7 minutes, and were entirely hit and run other than 2 combos: in game 1, the one time Taj approached me with an aerial the entire set, he got naired into a near 0-to-death combo / in game 2, i was forced to approach Taj at the very end because the match almost timed out, and got dthrowed -> fsmashed twice by the ledge for my stock.
you approach, you lose.
if you aren't Fox, Falco, and in some cases Peach, there is a strong correlation between camping and success that can be witnessed in the aforementioned sets. you're right; I didn't see most sets go to time. what I saw was
all the best players' (except for Mango) sets go to time.
You are also forgetting that one of the top players, Mango, has a very effective offensive style. How can the metagame be entirely defensive-based if Mango does well playing so "incorrectly?"
i'd like to emphasize that
one of the top players, Mango, has a very effective offensive style. a needle in a haystack isn't going to disprove my theory, Kevin. especially not when this needle is the same person doing TAS-esque stuff and destroying people with Mario a year ago. Mango is, honestly, too good at this game. i can't stress enough how perfectly he plays offense; compare this to the skill necessary to succeed playing defensively, and it becomes a no-brainer than defense > offense in Melee.
-Peach. *I found the use of Peach odd here. Peach has a very difficult time approaching as it is because of her extremely low mobility. She gets camped hard. Just because she has great shield pressure doesn't mean she is necessarily geared towards offense when it is tough for her to catch her opponent in the first place as well as pin them down.
-*I don't really believe Peach's shield pressure is broken either for the simple fact that you can roll away from her and she'd basically have to call the roll in order to get you. Peach's pressure might be great but if the reaction she forces is nearly unpunishable by her then how good is it really?
her priority and attack speed more than makes up for her lack of movement speed. Peach decimates anyone directly in front of her with fc'd nairs and dsmashes, whether they're standing, cc'ing, or shielding. as a Falco player, you have some of the best keepaway/zoning tools vs Peach so naturally you're going to disagree with me. vs non-Fox/Falco, good Peach players certainly have sufficient tools for getting in on the opponent.
even if you roll from Peach's shield pressure and she doesn't react fast enough to directly punish you with a grab/fc nair/dsmash, it is fairly easy for her to react fast enough to run to you so that she's directly in front of you, which is all that matters. as long as Peach is next to her opponent, she can continue her onslaught of fc nair/dsmash/ridiculously good jab/grab. as a Falcon player, I can assure you that Peach is one of the hardest characters to get away from when she has you trapped in shield.
-*I personally believe Melee has the potential to allow for many characters(many more than just the top and high tiers at LEAST) to be aggressive. All of the movement options and great fall speeds and speedy attacks and tough combos that momentum can help out are all wonderful assets that only aggressive play enjoys. Not to mention the stage control advantage granted to aggressive players which exerts its own psychological and, really, physical influence on the opponent. Being backed up against the edge is a difficult position because you can't retreat and, without considering anything else(even though there is much more to consider), one has less options. Aggressive play can, when successful, limit options. How is that wrong or ineffective?
another matter you don't fully comprehend as a Falco player
the fact of the matter is that non-Fox/Falco/Peach characters don't have good shield pressure options once they're on the ground. this means that after they aerial the opponent's shield, it becomes a matter of mindgames/outplaying them, whereas Fox/Falco/Peach have braindead aerial -> shine or fc nair -> dsmash to force the opponent to roll.
some characters don't even have a good aerial to shield pressure with! Marth's fair does next to no shieldstun, Falcon's knee/stomp take way too long while his other options do garbage hitstun, Sheik's shorthop is way too high for her to shield pressure well, etc. offense is simply illogical with these characters; anyone playing defensively with good reaction time won't even struggle vs your shield pressure (unless, like I said before, you do
phenomenal sh*t with these characters)
god i wish i played Falco
-*Spacie shield pressure isn't actually safe, if you're going by frames. There's more than a few frames to punish too, so as long as one knows the holes in shield pressure then it is simply a guessing/conditioning game that can wind up with you feeling too pressured and rolling or you getting the punish on the spacies and scaring them from pressuring/intimidating them from trying for much pressure. On a more human front, spacie pressure is pretty intimidating so it can be tough to always recognize where the holes are. Shield DI and buffering(rolls/spotdodges) can be very helpful with escape though, so that pressure is far from broken. Notice that, for humans, I listed both pro-offensive and pro-defensive traits of spacie shield pressure(aka pros and cons of it). Does this not seem to suggest that pressure is only what the player(s) make of it then?
-Autopilot pressure *basically the pressure can't be autopilot because the frame holes exist. Mixing up pressure, even for Peach becomes essential since frame holes allow for punishments or escapes from the opponent. Because the mixups are required then there is always a solid answer to whatever someone is doing to pressure you, and in that way you have a chance at control. It comes down to who is reading or playing better, not who is spamming the more broken tactic.
yes, there are frame holes. if there weren't, then Fox/Falco/Peach would trap their shielded opponents in an infinite shieldstun and nobody would even dispute them being the 3 best characters in the game and they would be banned from competitive play.
frame holes don't exempt Fox/Falco/Peach shield pressure from being broken.
I want you to tell me what OOS options my character (or anyone without a ridiculously fast aerial that covers the entire space in front of you a la Fox/Falco nair or Peach/nair) can do about them when the shield pressurer is spacing/timing his moves appropriately.
NOTHING
-Crouch-canceling *This is a really good argument in itself for defensive play. To assume this also includes ASDI down when getting hit by a move even if you're acting, CC'ing can reverse otherwise free combo situations around on the attacker. Instead of viewing this as a need to play defensively though, I see it as another layer/option to get around when approaching, or rather I'd try to get someone moving when I approach them so they couldn't really CC/focus on CC'ing. It must also be noted that CC is % dependent, meaning only useful things can be done from CCs at lower percents and at higher percents it won't work.
yeah, when I say CC'ing it includes ASDI down. wanna see something that disgusted me? 3:38 in Taj vs Armada. Taj does his famous usmash taunt, giving Armada a CLEAN HIT on him. in any other game, Taj would have eaten a ton of damage because Armada would have landed his best punish. but since this is Melee and defense is OP, Armada's best punish was a single nair because Taj ASDI'd it. it turns out he could've followed the nair with a dash attack for some additional damage, but he would've had to react to the ASDI down. even then, that's an extremely weak punish granted Armada had a clean hit on Taj.
-SDI *This is a wonderful defensive layer I'm glad was added into the game. Giving many unique DI options and allowing people to survive by understanding when they will be hit moments before they are is pretty cool to me. Falco's combos would also be ******** without SDI LOL. But yeah SDI doesn't necessarily negate combo starters as most people are trying to avoid the hit not SDI it when they get hit(especially at low %s). Besides, SDI'ing away often puts you offstage which is a position where you can't really play defensively anymore because you must recover. Just because you can SDI out of a combo doesn't mean you are out of it. If I SDI hard up against Marth as pretty much anyone then I'm far from free because I still have the juggling potential that Marth's high priority Uair and uptilt in particular grant him when he gets his opponent above him.
SDI can be wonderful, but it can also be hell. the example you gave is pro SDI; I agree that being able to SDI out of Falco's combos is healthy for the game. being able to SDI the 2nd hit of Falcon's nair, the ONLY relatively fast move he has that combos into grab, however, is not. when Mango and I played Falcon ditto friendlies at Pound 4, the few good nairs we got on each other (due to how hard it is to land both hits) often didn't go into grab because we would just SDI up and away from each other. that is just dumb.
-Except fox throwing backward *Fox's bthrow sets up for great shine kills so nah. Falco gets away with some silly Bthrow gimps occasionally too.
just wanted to say that I respect your ability to acknowledge parts of my argument that you truly agree with, rather than skip them and take an entirely negative stance against my theory.
that being said, this concerns Melee's equivalent of a corner: the ledge. specifically, it concerns the risk top tier characters run in getting themselves cornered: not much. turning the tides on your opponent who has you cornered is too easy, sometimes even favorable, with characters like Sheik/Marth/Jiggs/Peach. it's bad to get cornered as Fox/Falco, but they still have stupid reversal options such as the ones you mentioned.
even the characters with poor reversal options such as C. Falcon still have access to the plethora of escape mechanisms Melee grants you: fullhopping over the opponent, running straight through the opponent (you can't do this in traditional fighters, which makes cornering MUCH stronger in them), ledgehop -> 180 degree [perfect] waveland -> roll into the stage, etc. the fact that you can just run straight through them is really what kills it. cornering yourself in this game is nowhere near as deadly as it is in traditional fighters, thus, encouraging defensive play.
-*Sheik can have the edge taken from her ledgestall and she could either die or at least get her big recovery lag hit for it. Sheik's grab range isn't broken as it is smaller than Marth's, whose grab range is actually huge. Sheik's edgeguarding can also be beaten, even if it is quite effective. Besides, being in an edgeguard position is usually unfavorable to the guy recovering anyway. I'd think it would favor defense more if the guy getting knocked off didn't have to worry about his recovery much and didn't have to feel pressured by the edge that he could die.
Jman vs Amsah
S2J vs M2K
the majority of characters don't have anything remotely broken enough by the ledge to make it worth running the risk of getting bthrow gimped by Sheik, who has ridiculous grab range (idk what you're talking about) and edgeguarding. it's MUCH more logical to fight Sheik in the middle of the stage.
-*Peach's recovery is hardly broken. She is a floaty character with a good recovery, but being completely helpless during her up-B is very far from a broken characteristic. She can mix in a drop that she is still entirely vulnerable doing and that's it.
she's not as good as Marth/Sheik/Jiggs by the ledge, but she's still very good. dsmash becomes even more bullsh*t by the ledge (instant death if you don't perfectly space around her CC even once), and her recovery is fairly good if she's able to recover high.
-*Puff likes gimping people but it is not especially easy for her. She has pound and bthrow onstage, and so long as you bait her out a little then you should be very safe from both. If anything, Jiggz can only retreat to the edge if she tries to space vs you there, so just let her run there or let her try to push out and you'll be fine.
you must be forgetting Jigglypuff's pseudo-invincible ledgestall that the majority of the cast has no response to and deserves to be banned from competitive play
or her bthrow -> instant death vs most characters
or that she can't be edgeguarded; this strips the very purpose you'd want to corner your opponent in the first place
-Citing top players *Again, this is how the better players have turned out. The better players in 03-07 were primarily aggressive ones, so who's to say that the game suddenly changed, or maybe it was us instead? If a great SF player(forgot the name it's been a while) quit SF because everyone was getting campy recently, and if 64 is getting campier when it looked primarily aggro and it's been out longer than Melee, then doesn't that just sound like the metagame, the PEOPLE, have shifted that way instead of necessarily believing that that is what defines Melee?
it was honestly Brawl that shifted our metagame so much. when Melee players tried Brawl, an undeniably campy game, in 2008, we unintentionally returned to Melee with newly acquired defensive tactics under our belts. the "hit and run" theme that dominates Brawl rubbed off on us, and has since proved to be just as effective in our game (as well as Smash 64 too, apparently).
March 9th, 2008 was a ****ing horrible day
-*If one jumps in at a bad time in Melee, then either delaying an aerial or double jumping away will be safe the vast majority of the time. Most people space away from the big aerial move, especially when they see someone jump. Why would they be ready to attack a double jump they never see anyone do? If you make an error in judgment while jumping in, then unless you DJ at the very last second when they were starting to come in anyway and will follow your jump, then you will probably be fine. Obviously, if you make that error in judgment a lot then I question if we are still discussing high level play here, but an emergency double jump back once a set or so is perfectly safe for the most part(you could still be pressured after it though). Jumping in, in general, can be very effective as it establishes the threat of that particular move and by forcing your opponent to respect it you can determine how to punish their reaction the next time you're at that spacing instead of using that same move the same way again asking to be punished(in your case it sounds like going in hard with a move getting DD grabbed is how you use things a lot and I'd say that's a bad idea yeah).
For the record, my stance of Melee is you need a healthy balance to be successful, or maybe you have a slight lean towards defensive or aggressive play. Being able to understand and utilize tools related to both offensive and defensive tactics is key, regardless.
these two quotes concern human error, which is something i've learned a lot about through this discussion. I somewhat agree with you here, Kevin, and I'm going to amend my thesis as a result. I'll explain first.
the jump you just described is a bait. when 2 theoretically perfect machines play, baiting is entirely useless because they are both playing entirely on reaction and, in this case, your jump will be reacted to on the same frame by an appropriate anti-air move. something I've been trying to establish throughout this thread is that when one person is on the ground, and his opponent is in the air next to them, the person on the ground wins the tradeoff at theoretically perfect play. I have not changed my mind about this.
when 2 humans play, however, baiting is necessary in order to force your opponent into a punishable situation, i.e. L-cancel lag. when 2 pros play, why would one of them ever recklessly whiff an aerial, knowing that he will be punished for it?
because of this dilemma, a more accurate way to describe the way I envision optimal human play would be "fake offense." meaning, generally defensive play with occasional baits that attempt to trick your opponent into doing something offensive and making himself punishable. the most elementary example would be dashdancing forward, then backward, then forward again to bait -> grab an aerial; of course, 10 years into the game, we see far more complex baits than this one - it was just an example.
I wouldn't call it a "healthy balance" between offense/defense (which is what Kevin calls it). I'd call it defense designed to look like a healthy balance between offense/defense in order to trick your opponent into making mistakes.
~~~
^in bold is where i'm trying to head the discussion
this post was entirely a response to PP's post ~50 posts ago (my post was #179 in response to PP's post #136). it's been responded to since then; scroll back for responses..
