JPOBS
Smash Hero
Shoutouts to forward doing fade away shield pressure before it was cool.
Forward ****ing invented falco.
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Don't Approach: Melee's Flaw Dissected
- Thread starter Hax
- Start date
Forward ****ing invented falco.
Pi
Smash Hero
dude melee is hella underdeveloped in the technical aspect
a lot of this is due to the fact that we don't have any good way to practice those things
practicing things like powershielding, and shield dropping, in applicable situations requires you to have another person (yea u can shoot a laser w/ ur big toe and powershield it 90% of the time, but u know that ish is coming and chances are ur not shl'ing w/ ur toe)
and yea u can shield drop consistently thru bf platform while ur idle opponent idles idleally
but when ur getting shield pressured in a tourney set ur first thought probably isn't goign to be to shield drop it's to revert back to ur old habits
an example i can give
i'm consistent with ledge hop smash missile re-grab
i do this in matches, friendlies, tournament sets, etc.
i have made this a aspect of my ledge game that i exploit
(go try to do it, seriously, that **** is no joke, there was a time when i could not do it at all, 0% of the time, for weeks of on and off trying, slow mo trianing mode, it was hard)
but i spammed it in matches, friendlies, tournament sets, because when u grab the ledge ur in a no pressure environment very often
so it really was just me having a second and thinking it'd be nice to shoot a missile here, and i can re-grab it
so i spammed it and spammed it and that allowed me to practice it consistently whenever i was playing people
now, the next very hard techniqe that i see potential for, though less of it, is SHFFM
i have tried to implement this, and have gotten fairly consistent with it, and can see myself becoming 80% or so consistent with it, but it's very very hard to apply in a match because it's something u do while u and ur opponent are on neutral ground
and as a samus player, going in the air is dangerous
so it's not something i get to spam a lot for free, because when my opponent sees that i jump they jump at me and i don't want to do it again
so i stop. this has haulted my progression with the move severely, but it's so hard to do something that u know u can be punished for and it really doesn't offer much advantage in a lot of situations, but it is something i feel is worth implementing
there are tons of techniques like that, and because we have no way to practice these things in real scenerio's other than playing friendlies w/ peolpe, where it's quite often more than 2 on a setup andu don't wanna do something to get knocked out of rotation
or maybe ur buddy doesn't want to sit there and let u practice this thing for the length of time u need to to get consistent with it
i totaly lost where i was going w/ this but what i'm saying is that melee, tech wise, is underdeveloped
powershielding projectile and physical attacks are both viable options that are extremely hard to practice in applicable situations w/o risking missed opportunities to perform tried and true punishes.
also a lot of other ****.
a lot of this is due to the fact that we don't have any good way to practice those things
practicing things like powershielding, and shield dropping, in applicable situations requires you to have another person (yea u can shoot a laser w/ ur big toe and powershield it 90% of the time, but u know that ish is coming and chances are ur not shl'ing w/ ur toe)
and yea u can shield drop consistently thru bf platform while ur idle opponent idles idleally
but when ur getting shield pressured in a tourney set ur first thought probably isn't goign to be to shield drop it's to revert back to ur old habits
an example i can give
i'm consistent with ledge hop smash missile re-grab
i do this in matches, friendlies, tournament sets, etc.
i have made this a aspect of my ledge game that i exploit
(go try to do it, seriously, that **** is no joke, there was a time when i could not do it at all, 0% of the time, for weeks of on and off trying, slow mo trianing mode, it was hard)
but i spammed it in matches, friendlies, tournament sets, because when u grab the ledge ur in a no pressure environment very often
so it really was just me having a second and thinking it'd be nice to shoot a missile here, and i can re-grab it
so i spammed it and spammed it and that allowed me to practice it consistently whenever i was playing people
now, the next very hard techniqe that i see potential for, though less of it, is SHFFM
i have tried to implement this, and have gotten fairly consistent with it, and can see myself becoming 80% or so consistent with it, but it's very very hard to apply in a match because it's something u do while u and ur opponent are on neutral ground
and as a samus player, going in the air is dangerous
so it's not something i get to spam a lot for free, because when my opponent sees that i jump they jump at me and i don't want to do it again
so i stop. this has haulted my progression with the move severely, but it's so hard to do something that u know u can be punished for and it really doesn't offer much advantage in a lot of situations, but it is something i feel is worth implementing
there are tons of techniques like that, and because we have no way to practice these things in real scenerio's other than playing friendlies w/ peolpe, where it's quite often more than 2 on a setup andu don't wanna do something to get knocked out of rotation
or maybe ur buddy doesn't want to sit there and let u practice this thing for the length of time u need to to get consistent with it
i totaly lost where i was going w/ this but what i'm saying is that melee, tech wise, is underdeveloped
powershielding projectile and physical attacks are both viable options that are extremely hard to practice in applicable situations w/o risking missed opportunities to perform tried and true punishes.
also a lot of other ****.
crush
Smash Master
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
I came into this thread expecting to pick apart unfounded comparisons and bad logic. But this turned out to be a great read, especially near the end of the OP. For lack of a better expression: there is some real **** in those words. As much as I hate to admit it, Melee is inherently defensive; that is simply its nature.
The fun I draw from this game comes from the challenge I face when trying to play aggressively. I think the key to being successful in Melee is to find a method that works for you and push like crazy. Despite how strong defense can be, there is ALWAYS an exception to the 'rule'.
The fun I draw from this game comes from the challenge I face when trying to play aggressively. I think the key to being successful in Melee is to find a method that works for you and push like crazy. Despite how strong defense can be, there is ALWAYS an exception to the 'rule'.
onionchowder
Smash Journeyman
Excellent read, highlighted many facets of competitive Melee that I feel as though I observed subconsciously but couldn't put to words.
Unfortunately, there is nothing we can do as a community to remedy these faults. This isn't Starcraft, where maps can be tweaked to balance out the game; this isn't Street Fighter, where Capcom releases an updated and rebalanced version every few years.
Unfortunately, there is nothing we can do as a community to remedy these faults. This isn't Starcraft, where maps can be tweaked to balance out the game; this isn't Street Fighter, where Capcom releases an updated and rebalanced version every few years.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
The game is inherently defensive is a fault?
Personally, I enjoy it, makes the game that much more footsies based.
Personally, I enjoy it, makes the game that much more footsies based.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
i dont have a problem with the game being defensive.
I do however have a problem with people trying to pretend that its not.
I do however have a problem with people trying to pretend that its not.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Is there actually games that are way more offensive based? Or is it just our perception of fighting games that all fighting games are inherently more defensive?
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
The marvel series is rediculously offensive. But to be fair, it is possible to hit somebody from 3 directions at once in marvel 3 at least
Pengie
Smash Lord
While Marvel 2 does look like hyper offense because most people immediately think of Magneto ROMing people all day, there is a healthy balance between that and defense from teams like Santhrax and Matrix. Off the top of my head, I can think of Justin Wong and Neo who were notorious for playing runaway with those two teams.
MvC3 has been mentioned, although it's not one of the most offensive games. GG is another one, which gives meter for just moving towards your opponent, and resets meter to zero for not attacking them for a certain period of time. and that meter can be used to continue attacking with safe block strings. MK9 also gives more meter for attacking shields than for hitting a foe that has not blocked, as well as making combo escapes dependent on having meter (a defensive player not only runs the risk of being caught in 70% damage combos, but is unable to escape those combos, because they lack the escape option).
MvC2 wasn't really all that offensive, though. You gain meter for whiffing attacks. This emphasizes footsies and spamming, not approaching.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
there was also clockwork, who played so agressive he killed you with corner chip... It was like 64 shield pressure.
comparitively, marvel as a series is a dumb aggro compared to other series generally. Just because you can find examples of people being successful with defense doesnt mean the game as a whole isnt offensive. Just like the fact that you can just walk up to people with fox/falco, and do pretty much whatever doesnt make melee any less of a defensive game.
comparitively, marvel as a series is a dumb aggro compared to other series generally. Just because you can find examples of people being successful with defense doesnt mean the game as a whole isnt offensive. Just like the fact that you can just walk up to people with fox/falco, and do pretty much whatever doesnt make melee any less of a defensive game.
D
Deleted member
Guest
mvc2 has excellent punishment options, but it's still pretty damn defensive in its own right. it's a very well balanced game, and quite far from the offensive spectrum as a whole.
storm camp all dai.
storm camp all dai.
asianaussie
Smash Hero
for the record, 64 is a defensive game with huge punishment
also 64 shield pressure is only broken if your opponent can read you like a book, since it's the reduction of options that hurts the most (as opposed to 'oh i got hit guess ill let my shield break')
also 64 shield pressure is only broken if your opponent can read you like a book, since it's the reduction of options that hurts the most (as opposed to 'oh i got hit guess ill let my shield break')
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
Did you just call MvC2 balanced? Hopefully I misunderstood your post.
Mr.Jackpot
Smash Lord
He means balanced as in offense and defense LOL
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
People in this thread need to experience Phoenix mashing lows and Wolverine dive kicks to realize the true terror of an offensively tilted game. Its brainless.
A good game gives players viable approaches but also counters to those approaches. Otherwise those approaches just get spammed and the gameplay becomes derivative. It is good that dashdance grab is a counter to certain approaches. It is only when approaches are too hard to land or do not have the appropriate payoff that a game starts tilting to defense.
A good game gives players viable approaches but also counters to those approaches. Otherwise those approaches just get spammed and the gameplay becomes derivative. It is good that dashdance grab is a counter to certain approaches. It is only when approaches are too hard to land or do not have the appropriate payoff that a game starts tilting to defense.
I was thinking of mentioning that, too. When certain offensive options overpower every other option in the game, it's no more stupid and unfun to fight against than a game that is mostly running away. The fact that both agro hyper rush-down and sissy lamer keep-away have legitimate counters in Melee is worth praising.
:Tally Hoes
Banned via Administration
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2011
- Messages
- 62
I would like to see falco kirby in other match-ups like fighting falcon or fox i just wonder if kirby could shut down approach even better than falco with more lasers and air speed.
I'm just glad falcons don't dd run up and jab samus or others and movement camp the platforms for ever.
But I love both sides that aren't broken why I hate it when kj64 is banned when its only a bit more campy (time out wise) than battlefield and gets you a chance to play a much neater zoning game.
I'm just glad falcons don't dd run up and jab samus or others and movement camp the platforms for ever.
But I love both sides that aren't broken why I hate it when kj64 is banned when its only a bit more campy (time out wise) than battlefield and gets you a chance to play a much neater zoning game.
I think this description best describes why I feel that Melee is almost as perfectly balanced as you can get. Even in a game where we all agree that, for the most part, defensive options are slightly easier/stronger, we also all admit that Fox/Falco rushdown is as good as it gets when executed properly, and occasionally other characters like Peach, Pikachu, and more have good pressure options.
You will never, ever have a game where every character can play both offensively and defensively. Heck, in most games your lucky if 20% of the cast is good at either, and if one character is good at both he usually ends up OP. The fact that good options exist on both the offensive and defensive sides suggests that Melee is a reasonably balanced game, and the fact that 10 or so characters can be taken to a regional tournament finals is also incredible.
Shrug. When it comes down to it, I'm still a total Melee fanboy.
Pi
Smash Hero
i think that the defensiveness of the gameplay in the current meta is a response to the aggressiveness of the last meta
and that it's only a transitional period, because more and more as people realize the importance of pressure how how it can really **** with a lot of players gameplay i think it will be explored and exploited more
defensive right now may be easier, because it gives you more time to think than ur opponent
but applying, and tbh even responding too, well timed and executed aggressive pressure (not just from falco/fox/peach/yoshi) is not easy
and 1 mistake (again, from anyone) can lead into more severe pressure in which ur defensive options become more and more limited
so i wouldn't call this a 'flaw' but more of an outlook on the current meta
some are going to like it more than others
hell, as a low level 64 player, i don't like the fact that my friend can **** all over me w/ pressure on my shield and combo most hits into death
and without being able to take advantage of all the movement options prevelant in 64 (because i'm a noob), assuming i couldn't learn them, i wouldn't enjoy playing a game like that.
and that it's only a transitional period, because more and more as people realize the importance of pressure how how it can really **** with a lot of players gameplay i think it will be explored and exploited more
defensive right now may be easier, because it gives you more time to think than ur opponent
but applying, and tbh even responding too, well timed and executed aggressive pressure (not just from falco/fox/peach/yoshi) is not easy
and 1 mistake (again, from anyone) can lead into more severe pressure in which ur defensive options become more and more limited
so i wouldn't call this a 'flaw' but more of an outlook on the current meta
some are going to like it more than others
hell, as a low level 64 player, i don't like the fact that my friend can **** all over me w/ pressure on my shield and combo most hits into death
and without being able to take advantage of all the movement options prevelant in 64 (because i'm a noob), assuming i couldn't learn them, i wouldn't enjoy playing a game like that.
john!
Smash Hero
crush
Smash Master
Meta knight.
He's gone now though.
He's gone now though.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Pre-puff rules the world methinks.
Pi
Smash Hero
^essentially
When falco/fox/marth were the 'top'
but one could argue that we just didn't know how to stop them, until now, and that defensive is the way to stop them
but then I'd still like to think that, a couple years from now, defensive will be countered.
It's not easy to say one way or the other.
When falco/fox/marth were the 'top'
but one could argue that we just didn't know how to stop them, until now, and that defensive is the way to stop them
but then I'd still like to think that, a couple years from now, defensive will be countered.
It's not easy to say one way or the other.
Bones0
Smash Legend
I don't think it will take a couple of years. People just need to adjust to defensive strategies. As people get better at identifying and countering defensive strategies, then there will probably be a slightly tilt back into the favor of approaching first. I think we've already begun to swing in that direction. As bad as approaching incorrectly can get you ****ed up, it isn't rare to see sets won by the player who was able to space themselves so that they got the first approach more often than their opponent. It also seems like the game is becoming less and less radical in the sense of being offensive or defensive. Like a pendulum losing momentum, as it swings back and forth from offensive to defensive, the metagame is getting closer and closer to a medium balance with each swing. So like, if the metagame really does begin to swing back towards offense, it won't swing as far as it was back in the MLG days. That's all just my personal speculation based on some theory I've adopted over time, though. >_>
Big_R
Smash Champion
ken was awesome and not very campy. m2k ruined this game. mango tried to fix it but too many haters. need ppl to step up
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
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- 5,493
*sigh*
What RUINS this game is the one-sided BS about there only being one "legit" play style.
Come ON, guys. Really.
What RUINS this game is the one-sided BS about there only being one "legit" play style.
Come ON, guys. Really.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
eventually, it gets to the point where there is one best most efficient way to play the game. and everything else simply turns into a gimmick that may work once in a while but wont result in consistent Ws.
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Theoretically, that's true, but we won't ever get there. I'm just saying that there isn't going to be one play style that will ruin the game, and certainly isn't one singular way to play this game (now, anyways).
And the best option isn't always the right one.
And the best option isn't always the right one.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
the only reason that it wont get there is because of fox/falco. theyre both so retardedly powerful on O that it doesnt matter if every other character is Nu from blazblue, therell be offense in the game.
also, you should consider playing brawl again. Now that you understand competition and the mental stuff that goes into fighting games as a whole, you could get really good at it.
also, you should consider playing brawl again. Now that you understand competition and the mental stuff that goes into fighting games as a whole, you could get really good at it.
This thread is hilarious.
:Tally Hoes
Banned via Administration
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- 62
I disargee on very level that there would ever be a set in stone best way to play(not counting movement camping with % lead till a time out) the issue is there isn't a single thing broken enough yet to make it so we have only one option nearly everything in this game can dirctly handled but what beats it is also beaten but playing in a different syle(non best) makes it harder to adapt and predict and really that's how you fight space animals by getting a feel of their pattern then cracking it open like a coconut.
The best way to play is just silly to believe we have knowing nothing is broken and everything is counterable. At perfect play where each person is looking at the others controller to know if they'll shine or power sheildit'd be like playing chess with just a king and queen on both sides they would just keep spacing to gain the offensive and defensive advantage. So just dding sheild poking and xD at yoshi
The best way to play is just silly to believe we have knowing nothing is broken and everything is counterable. At perfect play where each person is looking at the others controller to know if they'll shine or power sheildit'd be like playing chess with just a king and queen on both sides they would just keep spacing to gain the offensive and defensive advantage. So just dding sheild poking and xD at yoshi
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@da K.I.D.: Really? Well, I'll think about it. At this point, I don't think it could hurt...
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
idk man, mango thinks armada is campy as hell, unless he's holding a turnip.
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To be fair, Mango isn't super aggressive himself (no, I'm not calling him campy). He just isn't as aggro as he looks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYl8jt4cAIA&feature=related
Old yes, but interesting, nonetheless. And I guess he was kind of DD camping at G2 (more of it was to apply pressure, but there was some avoidance there, too).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYl8jt4cAIA&feature=related
Old yes, but interesting, nonetheless. And I guess he was kind of DD camping at G2 (more of it was to apply pressure, but there was some avoidance there, too).
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
You talking about the one moment where he lasers for like 10 seconds and they laugh at him? Seems like he did that because he was annoyed/annoyed with m2ks style, he did sit back and needle a bunch and was gonna try and ledge stall.
cause ive never seen mango laser more than twice in a row