Don't Approach: Melee's Flaw Dissected

[da K.I.D.]

no hes not.

he sits at the ledge and waits for space animals to approach him stupidly. Thats how he pulled a 3 stock comeback vs shiz.

the real problem, is that everyone here is acting like theres something wrong with that strategy. why are people so concerned with pleasing the crowd? you guys are acting like laming people out isnt a legitimate way to win. like theres something wrong with Jason because he doesnt go into a tournament match looking for the most agressive and flashiest way to win so he can look cool to all the wack players, and instead settles for the most effective, most easily executable strategy, because it wins and more importantly because its fun to him.

 

[Big_R]

mostly because i want it to be more campy. the more offensive the game gets, the more fox/falco are at an advantage and every other char is at a disadvantage. at least if the game is more defensive it has better risk/reward dynamics for those awesome deathgrabs or 50-death edge guards. the balance is really good as is, it's not like camping ruins the game.

i agree that the balance is pretty good for the most part, until it isn't. that's why i'm voicing the other half of the balance of this game. because aggression has happened and it is a large part of the game. then m2k has to say he's gonna try to time out...god deezy lol. i just want someone representing the side of...."i wanna 4 stock you in one minute" however impossible it may be for 2 even...moderately equal opponents.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

dunno if your referring to me beyond the part about shiz, but i never said anything was wrong with what he was doing, I was simply saying that for a professional, I feel m2k goes harder on "play to win" than alot of people i've seen. And to wheoever asked why wouldn't you play to win, i didn't mean that literally. I'm talking "doing anything to win" no matter what people think, like laser camping an entire match with fox/ falco or stalling out the timer kinda stuff. I play to win on a totally different aspect of the game.

i don't complain about much involving this stuff, but i do find shiek ledge camping once she's in the lead to be INCREDIBLY lame.

 

[Deleted member]

Camping ruins the community and is frowned upon.. so **** that **** with your BS.

You've said dumber things, but this one is still pretty bad. A marginal change in style is more likely to develop the game than ruin it. And why do I care about what's "frowned upon"? Losing is what's frowned upon. Just do whatever wins.

i agree that the balance is pretty good for the most part, until it isn't. that's why i'm voicing the other half of the balance of this game. because aggression has happened and it is a large part of the game. then m2k has to say he's gonna try to time out...god deezy lol. i just want someone representing the side of...."i wanna 4 stock you in one minute" however impossible it may be for 2 even...moderately equal opponents.

The balance is pretty good and looks to stay that way. Playing to 4 stock someone in one minute is fine but why lower your win percentage to do it? You should play to beat as many players as consistently as possible, even if you only beat all of them last stock last hit. 4 stocks don't pay you more, placing higher does.

I understand that some people dislike camping (read: every fighter ever) but the amount of scrub in this thread is outright depressing.

 

[Divinokage]

Of course you don't care, you don't even participate in huge tournaments anymore... words become empty when you don't constantly practice what you are trying to say even if it's right, i can't take someone's word for it. It's like a trainer who doesn't train, a teacher should always be able to own his students.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Camping ruins the community

...

...

...How?

 

[EPsilon933]

...

...

...How?

It doesn't. The community's already ruined

 

[Divinokage]

...

...

...How?

If the purpose to battle is to fight then why would you run away from your opponent.. it's like a fight where 2 fighters just stare at each other not throwing many punches, it's boring. Yes it's an opinion but it's something too many people dislike seeing so.. Hell, even some fighters get fired simply because they are not entertaining. Sure smash is different but do you really want to be someone hated? Idk... I wouldn't like it that's for sure.

 

[EPsilon933]

Isn't running away part of a player's strategy? So what if it's boring. It's not everyone's job to entertain everyone else. Are you trying to appease someone?

 

[ShroudedOne]

From the standpoint of "We want to keep this game fun for people," I can understand your point, except for the fact that (and you cannot ignore this) there are people who have fun camping. Personally, I'm too impatient for it, but I'm not going to vilify someone just cause they don't play the game in a way that is conventionally entertaining.

"Do you really want to be someone hated?" This is my biggest gripe with this foolish community (and I'm not calling you out specifically, Kage, or anyone in this thread). Why is it that people who camp have to be hated? Really? da K.I.D. actually has been instrumental in me realizing that this game is defensive (I don't think it's hardcore campy like he does, but whatever), and this claim to legitimacy through "aggression" that people seem to have a boner for needs to stop. You can't expect newcomers to look at this game seriously when all they here is, "Camping is sooo gay," and, "Man, that guy plays like a ******."

I was watching Genesis 2 crews the other day, and in between matches (right after the Hbox Shroomed match) I was hearing HMW and some others talking about Hbox's play style. I don't need to tell you what they said, but it was extremely disrespectful, and immature. It honestly makes me think about how stupid some people are. At the end of the day, it's a video game. Let people play however they want to.

Sometimes I wonder if this community is actually better than the Brawl community. They, at least, have no idiotic, preconceived notions about their game.

 

[joejoe22802]

trash

10chars

 

[Divinokage]

Isn't running away part of a player's strategy? So what if it's boring. It's not everyone's job to entertain everyone else. Are you trying to appease someone?

Of course it's not, but every action has it's consequence, how do you want to be remembered by?

From the standpoint of "We want to keep this game fun for people," I can understand your point, except for the fact that (and you cannot ignore this) there are people who have fun camping. Personally, I'm too impatient for it, but I'm not going to vilify someone just cause they don't play the game in a way that is conventionally entertaining.

"Do you really want to be someone hated?" This is my biggest gripe with this foolish community (and I'm not calling you out specifically, Kage, or anyone in this thread). Why is it that people who camp have to be hated? Really? da K.I.D. actually has been instrumental in me realizing that this game is defensive (I don't think it's hardcore campy like he does, but whatever), and this claim to legitimacy through "aggression" that people seem to have a boner for needs to stop. You can't expect newcomers to look at this game seriously when all they here is, "Camping is sooo gay," and, "Man, that guy plays like a ******."

I was watching Genesis 2 crews the other day, and in between matches (right after the Hbox Shroomed match) I was hearing HMW and some others talking about Hbox's play style. I don't need to tell you what they said, but it was extremely disrespectful, and immature. It honestly makes me think about how stupid some people are. At the end of the day, it's a video game. Let people play however they want to.

Sometimes I wonder if this community is actually better than the Brawl community. They, at least, have no idiotic, preconceived notions about their game.

Sorry but it isn't going to stop, people like seeing other people get destroyed. That's basically typical human behavior even in real fights. The crowd boos when nothing is going on as the fighters feel each other out. Yes I know what's going on, you don't need to tell me.. but I'm kinda talking right now as a general observation, it's not what I think. Can something really be done about this? I don't think so, it's always going to be like that. The viewers want to see some action.

 

[ShroudedOne]

No, I guess it won't stop, huh...well hopefully not too many new players are turned away by this attitude. (inb4 someone states that more people come into Melee because of its "aggression.")

And I like seeing someone get thrashed as much as the next person. But I'm not going to hate on someone simply because they don't play like that.

 

[Mew2King]

my falco is pretty legit right now (ask velocity or cactuar) and I don't use lasers and I'm kind of aggressive. Actually my falco is probably better at my fox in more MUs right now, but isn't the best in any MU over my sheik/marth so I'd never have a reason pull him out in tourney, but I could do MMs vs people with my falco at apex if they want. or mewtwo =D (depends who but I'll accept most).

 

[Divinokage]

Why would you suddenly talk about your Falco? I'm confused lol.

 

[Mew2King]

i just want someone representing the side of...."i wanna 4 stock you in one minute" however impossible it may be for 2 even...moderately equal opponents.

This is very ironic you say this. As recent as genesis2, I 4 stocked a falco player in my THIRD round pools (so he was decent at very least) in 58 seconds on battlefield marth vs falco. I also beat a fox player with MEWTWO in my 1st round pools at that same tournament, 4 stock low %, in front of a large crowd. I actually go for 4 and jv 5s more than any other player does.

The best way to describe my style is I simply try to beat them as badly and efficiently as possible, by as much as possible.

I just go for 0-deaths all the time while trying to not get hit myself. It's honestly as simple as that. That's the way my mind works. Doesn't matter if it's a CG to death, a gimp, or a super long combo. As long as it's a 0-death, I go for it a lot (not all the time, but a very large amount).

I've also spent an incredible, INCREDIBLE amount of time thinking of different possible outcomes and options for different scenarios. Something I might never stop doing.

 

[S l o X]

have you seen m2k play falcon players?

yea, real aggresive. lol.

 

[da K.I.D.]

You've said dumber things, but this one is still pretty bad. A marginal change in style is more likely to develop the game than ruin it. And why do I care about what's "frowned upon"? Losing is what's frowned upon. Just do whatever wins.

The balance is pretty good and looks to stay that way. Playing to 4 stock someone in one minute is fine but why lower your win percentage to do it? You should play to beat as many players as consistently as possible, even if you only beat all of them last stock last hit. 4 stocks don't pay you more, placing higher does.

I understand that some people dislike camping (read: every fighter ever) but the amount of scrub in this thread is outright depressing.

All of my love to this man.

Of course you don't care, you don't even participate in huge tournaments anymore... words become empty when you don't constantly practice what you are trying to say even if it's right, i can't take someone's word for it. It's like a trainer who doesn't train, a teacher should always be able to own his students.

Despite my sig, im going to have to call BS on this one.

The 'You dont do, so you dont know' line of logic is painfully flawed. First off, I still attend plenty of tournaments fairly regularly, and I have exactly the same mindset as him on this topic, so how does him being inactive somehow = him being wrong, when Im plenty active and feel the same way.

Also, your phrasing in that post makes it sound like you think that the 75 year old crotchety guy in the movies could beat Rocky in a fight simply because he was his trainer/coach. Teacher/trainer/coach = better/stronger/faster than the student, does not work.

Isn't running away part of a player's strategy? So what if it's boring. It's not everyone's job to entertain everyone else. Are you trying to appease someone?

this.

From the standpoint of "We want to keep this game fun for people," I can understand your point, except for the fact that (and you cannot ignore this) there are people who have fun camping. Personally, I'm too impatient for it, but I'm not going to vilify someone just cause they don't play the game in a way that is conventionally entertaining.

"Do you really want to be someone hated?" This is my biggest gripe with this foolish community (and I'm not calling you out specifically, Kage, or anyone in this thread). Why is it that people who camp have to be hated? Really? da K.I.D. actually has been instrumental in me realizing that this game is defensive (I don't think it's hardcore campy like he does, but whatever), and this claim to legitimacy through "aggression" that people seem to have a boner for needs to stop. You can't expect newcomers to look at this game seriously when all they here is, "Camping is sooo gay," and, "Man, that guy plays like a ******."

I was watching Genesis 2 crews the other day, and in between matches (right after the Hbox Shroomed match) I was hearing HMW and some others talking about Hbox's play style. I don't need to tell you what they said, but it was extremely disrespectful, and immature. It honestly makes me think about how stupid some people are. At the end of the day, it's a video game. Let people play however they want to.

Sometimes I wonder if this community is actually better than the Brawl community. They, at least, have no idiotic, preconceived notions about their game.

@ the first bolded part:
/pride =D
@ the second bolded part
lol that.

I also agree with everything else in his post.

Of course it's not, but every action has it's consequence, how do you want to be remembered by?

Sorry but it isn't going to stop, people like seeing other people get destroyed. That's basically typical human behavior even in real fights. The crowd boos when nothing is going on as the fighters feel each other out. Yes I know what's going on, you don't need to tell me.. but I'm kinda talking right now as a general observation, it's not what I think. Can something really be done about this? I don't think so, it's always going to be like that. The viewers want to see some action.

Being in the majority doesnt make you explicitly right...

And something being hard to change doesnt make it right either.

 

[Bones0]

I don't see how anyone can whine about any play style when your opponent is just doing his best to win. Especially in a game as balanced as Melee where most extremely offensive and extremely defensive strategies do not work. M2K makes his defensive style work because he is insanely good. It's not the other way around. M2K isn't only good because he plays defensive.

I've always just lived by the notion that if you don't like they way someone is playing, make them lose because of their play style. If you can figure out all the different ways to beat a Marth camping the ledge, you essentially make that strategy obsolete and you won't have to deal with it nearly as much. If you can't beat it, then what right do you have to complain about them using that strategy in the first place?

It's really cliche, but fits the discussion perfectly: Don't hate the player, hate the game. (And guess what? There's nothing wrong with the game, you just suck.)

 

[Mew2King]

well if it was the brawl community u could just ban staying by the ledge instead of having to deal with it or getting better

 

[ShroudedOne]

I don't see how anyone can whine about any play style when your opponent is just doing his best to win. Especially in a game as balanced as Melee where most extremely offensive and extremely defensive strategies do not work. M2K makes his defensive style work because he is insanely good. It's not the other way around. M2K isn't only good because he plays defensive.

I've always just lived by the notion that if you don't like they way someone is playing, make them lose because of their play style. If you can figure out all the different ways to beat a Marth camping the ledge, you essentially make that strategy obsolete and you won't have to deal with it nearly as much. If you can't beat it, then what right do you have to complain about them using that strategy in the first place?

It's really cliche, but fits the discussion perfectly: Don't hate the player, hate the game. (And guess what? There's nothing wrong with the game, you just suck.)

Quoted for insane amounts of truth.

 

[da K.I.D.]

well if it was the brawl community u could just ban staying by the ledge instead of having to deal with it or getting better

why must you make it so hard to be nice to you...

 

[:Tally Hoes]

I wonder how hate, dislike, or hopelessness has helped someone further themselfes in life or in smash.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Hungrybox probably has the mentality and fortitude of an actual champion...

 

[Twinkles]

Someone define aggressive, someone define defensive, someone define campy
I don't understand these strange terms and cannot participate in intelligent discussion
on a respectable internet forum
If I do not have these tools at my disposal

 

[Divinokage]

Also, your phrasing in that post makes it sound like you think that the 75 year old crotchety guy in the movies could beat Rocky in a fight simply because he was his trainer/coach. Teacher/trainer/coach = better/stronger/faster than the student, does not work.

That's a bit different, you are in a competitive settings.. I mean for me to be a quality teacher I'd have to always be ahead of my students because like that they'll always be able to grow. To me, it should be an absolute rule.. I don't really see the point of teaching someone when you have given up yourself. True masters do that, and I know some of them here in Montreal, just like for example a Tai Chi/Kung fu master.. He's always teaching and practicing because if he doesn't then he'll forget what's really important in the training and he'll mislead people with wrong information. How is this BS? It's the truth. I personally would not want to learn from someone who sits on their *** and talks random **** who thinks he's right, no way in hell. I need proof that he's actually awesome if I want something to be taught to me. Like a champion teaching others how to fight, now that's cool.

Being in the majority doesnt make you explicitly right...

And something being hard to change doesnt make it right either.

Yes but unfortunately, it is a collective truth, so what do you want to do about it? Whine about how it's not right to boo people that aren't doing anything? If something is agreed upon millions then how the hell are you going to go against that?

I don't see how anyone can whine about any play style when your opponent is just doing his best to win. Especially in a game as balanced as Melee where most extremely offensive and extremely defensive strategies do not work. M2K makes his defensive style work because he is insanely good. It's not the other way around. M2K isn't only good because he plays defensive.

I've always just lived by the notion that if you don't like they way someone is playing, make them lose because of their play style. If you can figure out all the different ways to beat a Marth camping the ledge, you essentially make that strategy obsolete and you won't have to deal with it nearly as much. If you can't beat it, then what right do you have to complain about them using that strategy in the first place?

It's really cliche, but fits the discussion perfectly: Don't hate the player, hate the game. (And guess what? There's nothing wrong with the game, you just suck.)

Well, it's too bad not everyone can see something like you.

I wonder how hate, dislike, or hopelessness has helped someone further themselfes in life or in smash.

Oh, you'd be surprised.. prove those *******s wrong for example.. oh yes, I like doing that. =) I've been someone that was downtalked a lot too back in the day but I didn't care, I just kept doing what I love and eventually.. well.. I don't really need to prove anymore to myself that I can do it despite the odds against me.

 

[Wake]

From the standpoint of "We want to keep this game fun for people," I can understand your point, except for the fact that (and you cannot ignore this) there are people who have fun camping. Personally, I'm too impatient for it, but I'm not going to vilify someone just cause they don't play the game in a way that is conventionally entertaining.

"Do you really want to be someone hated?" This is my biggest gripe with this foolish community (and I'm not calling you out specifically, Kage, or anyone in this thread). Why is it that people who camp have to be hated? Really? da K.I.D. actually has been instrumental in me realizing that this game is defensive (I don't think it's hardcore campy like he does, but whatever), and this claim to legitimacy through "aggression" that people seem to have a boner for needs to stop. You can't expect newcomers to look at this game seriously when all they here is, "Camping is sooo gay," and, "Man, that guy plays like a ******."

I was watching Genesis 2 crews the other day, and in between matches (right after the Hbox Shroomed match) I was hearing HMW and some others talking about Hbox's play style. I don't need to tell you what they said, but it was extremely disrespectful, and immature. It honestly makes me think about how stupid some people are. At the end of the day, it's a video game. Let people play however they want to.

Sometimes I wonder if this community is actually better than the Brawl community. They, at least, have no idiotic, preconceived notions about their game.

Oh thank goodness. I was waiting for this post after seeing some other people's posts.

 

[:Tally Hoes]

*Oh, you'd be surprised.. prove those *******s wrong for example.. oh yes, I like doing that. =) I've been someone that was downtalked a lot too back in the day but I didn't care, I just kept doing what I love and eventually.. well.. I don't really need to prove anymore to myself that I can do it despite the odds against me.

Explain how that your hate, dislike, or hopelessness helped better yourself sounds like it didn't. You sound like you improved by non negative emotional means as I suggested. I think you just misunderstood my statement.*

Really I was talking more to people who get emotional during a match or ones who complain non-stop.

 

[Shroomed]

All of you should avoid logical discussion with Kage. Both parties have to be logical in order for the discussion to be fruitful.

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

You've said dumber things, but this one is still pretty bad. A marginal change in style is more likely to develop the game than ruin it. And why do I care about what's "frowned upon"? Losing is what's frowned upon. Just do whatever wins.



The balance is pretty good and looks to stay that way. Playing to 4 stock someone in one minute is fine but why lower your win percentage to do it? You should play to beat as many players as consistently as possible, even if you only beat all of them last stock last hit. 4 stocks don't pay you more, placing higher does.

I understand that some people dislike camping (read: every fighter ever) but the amount of scrub in this thread is outright depressing.

I love you.

 

[Deleted member]

That's a bit different, you are in a competitive settings.. I mean for me to be a quality teacher I'd have to always be ahead of my students because like that they'll always be able to grow. To me, it should be an absolute rule.. I don't really see the point of teaching someone when you have given up yourself. True masters do that, and I know some of them here in Montreal, just like for example a Tai Chi/Kung fu master.. He's always teaching and practicing because if he doesn't then he'll forget what's really important in the training and he'll mislead people with wrong information. How is this BS? It's the truth. I personally would not want to learn from someone who sits on their *** and talks random **** who thinks he's right, no way in hell. I need proof that he's actually awesome if I want something to be taught to me. Like a champion teaching others how to fight, now that's cool.

If you're always ahead of the people you teach, they can only ever be as good or worse than you. Why would the student want that?

True masters teach their life's work. This isn't my life dedication, it's just a hobby I've had for a long time. I'm definitely the best person to learn this game from, and I'm very choosy about picking students because I can be. The very few people that want to win and aren't afraid to work for it find me sooner or later.

Defense is part of the game. Deal with it or go home.

 

[Prince_Abu]

relax umbreon ur not some wise sage of smash ur just another loser playin a 10 year old childrens game

 

[da K.I.D.]

hes kind of both actually.

 

[Kal]

I personally hate camping. I also personally hate Falco. But it's not worth deriding the player for. If things were switched, and most players hated aggression, spouting nonsense along the lines of "why doesn't he stop to think before he attacks," how would you feel?

You'd feel annoyed. But you'd also tell everyone to **** off: "this is how I want to play. If you can't beat it, then I'm doing the right thing. If you can, then quite *****ing."

 

[Wake]

I personally hate camping. I also personally hate Falco. But it's not worth deriding the player for. If things were switched, and most players hated aggression, spouting nonsense along the lines of "why doesn't he stop to think before he attacks," how would you feel?

You'd feel annoyed. But you'd also tell everyone to **** off: "this is how I want to play. If you can't beat it, then I'm doing the right thing. If you can, then quite *****ing."

oh yes. More posts like this.

 

[Divinokage]

If you're always ahead of the people you teach, they can only ever be as good or worse than you. Why would the student want that?

True masters teach their life's work. This isn't my life dedication, it's just a hobby I've had for a long time. I'm definitely the best person to learn this game from, and I'm very choosy about picking students because I can be. The very few people that want to win and aren't afraid to work for it find me sooner or later.

Defense is part of the game. Deal with it or go home.

I think you mean why would a student want a guy that sits on his *** and does nothing but teach other people? If you want the best teacher then you need someone powerful and that truly knows his ****. I wouldn't care if the teacher is always stronger than me, that just means there's always something to be learned and you can grow infinitely.. it's too awesome.

Edit: Shroomed, shut the **** up if you have nothing fruitful to say.

 

[Max?]

i just want someone representing the side of...."i wanna 4 stock you in one minute" however impossible it may be for 2 even...moderately equal opponents.

You should talk to PC, that kid embodies aggression.

If you're always ahead of the people you teach, they can only ever be as good or worse than you. Why would the student want that?

True masters teach their life's work. This isn't my life dedication, it's just a hobby I've had for a long time. I'm definitely the best person to learn this game from, and I'm very choosy about picking students because I can be. The very few people that want to win and aren't afraid to work for it find me sooner or later.

Defense is part of the game. Deal with it or go home.

lol.

Wouldn't be a day on the boards without a bold, ******** statement from Mow.

 

[Prince_Abu]

yea seriously this umbreon guy is a ***** scrub

 

[Deleted member]

I think you mean why would a student want a guy that sits on his *** and does nothing but teach other people? If you want the best teacher then you need someone powerful and that truly knows his ****. I wouldn't care if the teacher is always stronger than me, that just means there's always something to be learned and you can grow infinitely.. it's too awesome.

I do know my ****, probably too well.

If the teacher is always better than you, you can never be your personal best. The best way to teach is to pass all you have, and then teach them to teach themselves.

That said, defense doesn't ruin the game, it just changes it. You can either learn it or you can...play falco dittos and nothing else?

 

[Bones0]

I do know my ****, probably too well.

If the teacher is always better than you, you can never be your personal best. The best way to teach is to pass all you have, and then teach them to teach themselves.

That said, defense doesn't ruin the game, it just changes it. You can either learn it or you can...play falco dittos and nothing else?

That doesn't make any sense. :|