Don't Approach: Melee's Flaw Dissected

[da K.I.D.]

Or it could be the level of self understanding needed to truly be a great warrior in life.

 

[Bones0]

wtf, how do you know about lombardi?

someone must be putting you up to this, i'm just a scrub.

PP mentioned you in the SotG stream. lol

 

[Divinokage]

Or it could be the level of self understanding needed to truly be a great warrior in life.

Nope, a true warrior always grows.

 

[da K.I.D.]

You grow more in your knowledge when you teach. Regardless of your actual ability to do.

 

[Deleted member]

anyone who is seriously teaching this game has more or less given up on personal greatness. a student not passing the teacher in talent is pathetic. most of the path to greatness is traveled alone.

quoted for stupidity!!

 

[Divinokage]

You grow more in your knowledge when you teach. Regardless of your actual ability to do.

I find that pretty pointless if you don't use that knowledge yourself to become stronger.. for me it's never a good time to stop so, you aren't gonna convince me otherwise, it's pretty much impossible. =P

 

[S0FT]

“a teacher should always be able to own his students.”

“That's a bit different, you are in a competitive settings.. I mean for me to be a quality teacher I'd have to always be ahead of my students because like that they'll always be able to grow. To me, it should be an absolute rule.. I don't really see the point of teaching someone when you have given up yourself. True masters do that, and I know some of them here in Montreal, just like for example a Tai Chi/Kung fu master.. He's always teaching and practicing because if he doesn't then he'll forget what's really important in the training and he'll mislead people with wrong information. How is this BS? It's the truth. I personally would not want to learn from someone who sits on their *** and talks random **** who thinks he's right, no way in hell. I need proof that he's actually awesome if I want something to be taught to me. Like a champion teaching others how to fight, now that's cool.”

“I think you mean why would a student want a guy that sits on his *** and does nothing but teach other people? If you want the best teacher then you need someone powerful and that truly knows his ****. I wouldn't care if the teacher is always stronger than me, that just means there's always something to be learned and you can grow infinitely.. it's too awesome.”

Being a good teacher is different from being a good player. You can be the best player and be awful at teaching. Just like playing the game well is a practiced skill, so is teaching. Most really good chess players have teachers that are not the best players in the world but are exceptional teachers. I think the best way to judge a teacher is not by his actual skill in the game but by his students…

 

[Deleted member]

While that may be true, I still think that's being a huge ***** in life. lol.

If a student was never as good as the teacher, the education system would fundamentally fail as each generation got continuously dumber. Then again, you already said you can't be convinced, so this is an exercise in futility anyway.

s2j I actually respect your opinion, can you go into depth why you think it's stupid?

 

[Legend4ryFlower]

anyone who is seriously teaching this game has more or less given up on personal greatness. a student not passing the teacher in talent is pathetic. most of the path to greatness is traveled alone.

This seems more or less like many cases of confirmation bias of people who no longer have competitive drive but still understand the game and appreciate it (much like yourself).

I can say in academia this is 100% not true. While the competition is stiff for grants, publications, and positions, no one goes into academia cause they like fame, they do it cause they like what they do.

At the end of the day the grants and awards are just there to make you stay relevant, and you are very happy if your colleagues accomplish better things than you. You can just take their work and do something better or different with it.

I don't really like saying this to people, but I think youre wrong. Your current understanding isnt based on that much experience to be honest. There is not a large community of melee vets who are now devoted to teaching others solely, and I think its fairly obvious that this is the case.

My experience is not directly with the melee community, but it from the same sort of environment where:
1) There is competition
2) People enjoy what they do
3) You are rewarded for high performance.

Thats all.

edit: and what soft said is true, especially about the large gap between teaching and doing.

 

[PEEF!]

The student usually does surpass the master.

 

[Deleted member]

yeah i could see some confirmation bias definitely. although honestly my own experience is all i have to draw off of, i haven't met many players that serious sat down and taught others. the ones that did (wife is a good example) stopped playing as much the same way i did. while there isn't much to draw conclusions from, i don't see going off of my observations as a bad start. the lack of the opposite might be a logical fallacy, but it's still present. that is to say, i don't see any players that take the teaching aspect seriously while also focusing on self-improvement.

excellent points though.

 

[Bones0]

What about PP's thread? I think that's a great example of a player who is clearly passionate about self-improvement, yet he continues to be a great teacher to many players in his thread, some who hardly even play Falco.

The problem with your assumption that each generation would get more and more stupid is that teachers aren't usually the average level of knowledge. If someone with their intelligence in the top 1% teaches a class, even if NONE of his students surpasses him, there would still be a much higher level of intelligence than if the teacher was of below average intelligence and ALL of his students surpassed him. Assuming the students are all equally capable, which teacher is better? The one that is very intelligent that you won't surpass, or the one that is below average and you will surpass? I'd always argue that the less likely it is for you to surpass your teacher, the more you will learn, UNLESS the student's inability to surpass the teacher is a result of the teacher's ability to convey their ideas successfully, which is what I think your point has been.

 

[Battlecow]

I think Mow means a teacher in the sense that he sees himself as a teacher; someone who coaches one or two players an insane amount. 99% of the smash community, however, learns from a different kind of teacher: the good player who occasionally plays sets with them, offers advice, critiques, etc. PP teaches people, but I doubt that any of his students will surpass him. Yet, their skill levels will be far and away better than the skill levels they'd otherwise have.

 

[Divinokage]

If a student was never as good as the teacher, the education system would fundamentally fail as each generation got continuously dumber. Then again, you already said you can't be convinced, so this is an exercise in futility anyway.

s2j I actually respect your opinion, can you go into depth why you think it's stupid?

Why do you think so? I'd think it would provide unlimited potential.

But ya you guys are right, but still.. Bones idea is good i find.

 

[Deleted member]

If a student was never as good as the teacher, the education system would fundamentally fail as each generation got continuously dumber. Then again, you already said you can't be convinced, so this is an exercise in futility anyway.

s2j I actually respect your opinion, can you go into depth why you think it's stupid?

sorry for the rude quote, looking at it again i probably just misunderstood u

 

[Deleted member]

whatever, this long side tangent doesn't matter. the point is that defense is a fundamental part of the game and no amount of complaining is going to hate it out of the game. the best answer is to deal with it in-game. i reiterate that the scrub level in this thread is dangerously high.

 

[Myztek]

I don't know why you assume that someone teaching the game has given up on greatness. Would you care to elaborate on your reasoning for this?

If both the teacher and student use their personal time, outside of "class", to improve themselves, then how is the teacher holding himself back?

 

[Bones0]

I believe it's because Umbreon's actual definition of "teacher" is someone who is more focused on helping their student become the best than becoming the best themselves. Any improvement a 100%-dedicated teacher makes is simply incidental.

 

[ph00tbag]

i reiterate that the scrub level in this thread is dangerously high.

Welcome to the Smash community since '07.

 

[Strong Badam]

you mean 2008 after brawl came out

 

[SmashMac]

This was a very good read. One thing I've noticed in the past several years is the big difference between the pros nowadays and how they play opposed to the ones from when I first started back in 2005 competitively. With a few exceptions, it seems that unless one has perfect tech skill, their offensive game can be easier to pick apart and dealt with. It almost seems that since higher level players are playing safer nowadays is why I see more ***** than I did before. The mental game has gone up a notch because realistically, this is a patience game. Using HBox as an example was perfect. Every time I see him play or play him, he's incredibly patient and if he happens to lose a match he is disappointed because he knows he could have won the match, regardless of who he's playing. He's been like that since before anyone even knew him. If everyone started the game out competitively with that kind of mindset, we would have a more diverse character roster for in top 10 players. Besides HBox, take players like Shroomed and Wobbles for example. Hopefully this will start a trend other than the typical god-tier top 10 player character list.

 

[bossa nova ♪]

yeah, some variety to spice up summa deez lists would be nice




honestly though, falco dittos are the best haha

 

[danieljosebatista]

whatever, this long side tangent doesn't matter. the point is that defense is a fundamental part of the game and no amount of complaining is going to hate it out of the game. the best answer is to deal with it in-game. i reiterate that the scrub level in this thread is dangerously high.

^lol. Mow, you make a lot of sense. I'm probably what you would call a scrub as I'm a new player, but could you elaborate and explain what you mean by "deal with it in-game"? Do you mean that if your opponent chooses a defensive strategy that you should in turn play defensively and look for an opening, or look for a way to poke holes in his defense/camping?

 

[ShroudedOne]

I'm quite sure that's what he means. It does you no good to get frustrated with the mindset, "Oh, their so gay, they aren't approaching, all they do is camp, etc." Just stay safe while looking for the pattern with which they defend and exploit it, or find an opening, push your way in aggressively, and don't let them go until you're done. That's kind of what you need to do against campers: bide your time, stay patient, poke at them until you can get in/crack them, and then make that hit count for every little thing you possibly can.

 

[Giygacoal]

Ten years after its release, Melee suddenly became very philosophical.

 

[Deleted member]

^lol. Mow, you make a lot of sense. I'm probably what you would call a scrub as I'm a new player, but could you elaborate and explain what you mean by "deal with it in-game"? Do you mean that if your opponent chooses a defensive strategy that you should in turn play defensively and look for an opening, or look for a way to poke holes in his defense/camping?

first off, you may or may not be a scrub. a scrub is someone that doesn't do what is needed to win. this includes sandbagging, intentionally making poor counterpicks, or pretty much any type of self-sabotage. you can be a good player and still be a scrub. it doesn't mean that the player is bad, just that his mindset is flawed concerning competition. you are probably inexperienced, sloppy and lots of other things. those can be fixed with practice and testing. it's hard to remove the scrub mentality, especially in older players that have a solidified view of the game.

if your opponent is playing defensively, you must find some way to overcome it. this can involve pressure with well spaced attacks, camping back, running the timer, exploiting a player habit, whatever. just do what wins.

 

[BigD!!!]

zaatar ive played pretty much everybody but ghost

 

[SSBMLahti]

first off, you may or may not be a scrub. a scrub is someone that doesn't do what is needed to win. this includes sandbagging, intentionally making poor counterpicks, or pretty much any type of self-sabotage. you can be a good player and still be a scrub. it doesn't mean that the player is bad, just that his mindset is flawed concerning competition. you are probably inexperienced, sloppy and lots of other things. those can be fixed with practice and testing. it's hard to remove the scrub mentality, especially in older players that have a solidified view of the game.

if your opponent is playing defensively, you must find some way to overcome it. this can involve pressure with well spaced attacks, camping back, running the timer, exploiting a player habit, whatever. just do what wins.

Umbreon...are you that guy that went to that one tournament once?

 

[Bones0]

lol, I've never thought about how scrubby it is to sandbag, but it definitely seems really obvious now that I think about it. Wow.

 

[Deleted member]

Umbreon...are you that guy that went to that one tournament once?

I've entered around 130 tournaments and probably attended another 40-50 without entering a bracket in my modest 9 years of experience.

 

[ShroudedOne]

lol, I've never thought about how scrubby it is to sandbag, but it definitely seems really obvious now that I think about it. Wow.

Explain what you mean?

 

[Dark_Crono]

I've entered around 130 tournaments and probably attended another 40-50 without entering a bracket in my modest 9 years of experience.

hahahahahaha

 

[Bones0]

Explain what you mean?

first off, you may or may not be a scrub. a scrub is someone that doesn't do what is needed to win. this includes sandbagging, intentionally making poor counterpicks, or pretty much any type of self-sabotage. you can be a good player and still be a scrub. it doesn't mean that the player is bad, just that his mindset is flawed concerning competition. you are probably inexperienced, sloppy and lots of other things. those can be fixed with practice and testing. it's hard to remove the scrub mentality, especially in older players that have a solidified view of the game.

I've typically thought of scrub mentality as someone who thinks they are good/plays to win, but doesn't. Sandbagging is someone intentionally avoiding playing to win, so I never really noticed how it is essentially included under the definition of scrub.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Ah, I see. I'd read that, but somehow didn't connect the dots.

 

[Prince_Abu]

I've entered around 130 tournaments and probably attended another 40-50 without entering a bracket in my modest 9 years of experience.

wow ur a big loser, 190 tournaments and 9 yrs playin this kiddie game and ur still not good

 

[Deleted member]

wow ur a big loser, 190 tournaments and 9 yrs playin this kiddie game and ur still not good

in the choice between being a "has been" vs being a "never was", i'll keep my position and you can keep yours.

 

[Bones0]

Daaaaamn... get at the kid.

 

[Prince_Abu]

in the choice between being a "has been" vs being a "never was", i'll keep my position and you can keep yours.

ya but the flaw in ur argument is that uve had 9 years and 190 tournaments to be good and you still arent, whereas ive just started and im probably already better than u

all u do is post dumb stuff on this website and make outrageous claims like sayin ur the best person in the world to learn this game from and u choose ur disciples wisely. u just look stupid.

 

[da K.I.D.]

The funniest part is that if youve had any experience with the community for any semblance of time, youd clearly see that Max isnt the one making himself look like an ignorant fool in this situation.

 

[Deleted member]

ya but the flaw in ur argument is that uve had 9 years and 190 tournaments to be good and you still arent, whereas ive just started and im probably already better than u

all u do is post dumb stuff on this website and make outrageous claims like sayin ur the best person in the world to learn this game from and u choose ur disciples wisely. u just look stupid.

i played semi-pro for a couple years, made 5 digits of cash when this game had money, and dipped and went to college. i don't have to prove ****.

besides, who are you? should i know you from somewhere? i'm not being sarcastic, this is a legit question, i used to play with vidjo a lot and he's from ohio so maybe there's some connection there?