Don't Approach: Melee's Flaw Dissected

[Battlecow]

Yo mow, out of curiosity (not hating on you or anything) are there vids of you from back when you were good?

 

[Prince_Abu]

im just a guy who trolls this website

 

[Deleted member]

Yo mow, out of curiosity (not hating on you or anything) are there vids of you from back when you were good?

most of where i made money were smaller regional events in NY and PA, during a time when only nationals had videos, and those videos were usually only top 3. like the last MLG i went to i got 7th and that wasn't recorded at all. the community support has really added a lot to the game that was never there when i played.

all of my matches that were on youtube were on scars account and got taken down, cape's account and he only uploaded the ones he won (>_>) or a random teams set of me and chu vs PC/plank well after i quit playing seriously. i think the best you'll get now are me playing project m, but that's not exactly the same thing? sorry.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Yo mow, out of curiosity (not hating on you or anything) are there vids of you from back when you were good?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79gocAJdbJA

the only thing that matters

 

[Divinokage]

in the choice between being a "has been" vs being a "never was", i'll keep my position and you can keep yours.

LOLLL, now that's funny.

 

[Strong Badam]

umbreon **** on prince abooboo

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

meh, prince did call him out. sure he's still a 'never was', but he hasn't had 9 YEARS to even get that opportunity

it's cool that you made money back in the day, but we're in 2011 and you're still presently giving yourself alot of credit semi pro back then is like, average level today, if that.

i also don't see how the best teacher in the world is at a semi-pro level, i don't see you teaching beyond your own understanding.

 

[Strong Badam]

max hasn't really taken this game seriously since like 2007 i bet

understanding != skill. it just unlocks potential.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

max hasn't really taken this game seriously since like 2007 i bet

understanding != skill. it just unlocks potential.

but who's to say his understanding is correct if he can't apply it?

 

[Strong Badam]

it's pretty obvious that he can apply it since he's won tourneys and such and taught M2K to not be bad

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

i don't think winning tourneys from 4+ years ago would apply to being the best teacher in todays meta..

the m2k thing applies the same

 

[Strong Badam]

yeah because M2K is not relevant in today's metagame

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

yeah because M2K is not relevant in today's metagame

i think you're giving umbreon far more credit than m2k here.

he taught m2k how to be viable in a 4 year old metagame. it's not like he's teaching him how to play in todays sucessfully.

 

[Shroomed]

i think you're giving umbreon far more credit than m2k here.

he taught m2k how to be viable in a 4 year old metagame. it's not like he's teaching him how to play in todays sucessfully.

Agreed. Stop saying M2K's presence in today's metagame is thanks to Umbreon's 5 year old teaching. That's stupid.

 

[KishPrime]

If you've been at a level where you're winning regional/national tournaments in a developed metagame, it doesn't matter when you played. You can understand the game.

Kids nowadays think they're so fancy. Game hasn't changed that much over the past 5-6 years, just a bit faster and the follow-ups are more developed. It's not like us old-timers watch a new combo and go WHOA HOW DID THAT HAPPEN. We give a little nod and say, "huh, that follow-up makes sense if you shave a few frames here and there." It's impressive, and it's new, but it's nothing that people with established ability couldn't go back and add into their game.

If you've won a regional or national tournament, you're definitely qualified to have an opinion and be heard. You can still be wrong, but you are qualified.

 

[Strong Badam]

i think you're giving umbreon far more credit than m2k here.

he taught m2k how to be viable in a 4 year old metagame. it's not like he's teaching him how to play in todays sucessfully.

Give a man a fish, teach a man to fish.

 

[Divinokage]

Give a man a fish, teach a man to fish.

That's not how it works lol. Even if you were the best teacher, it's still up to the student to understand how to do it with his own understanding. The teacher can only show a door. Someone's own understanding of the game has probably different levels of power let's say. Someone might know to fish slowly but the other guy can probably catch a fish instantly. Some people think being efficient is the best way, some don't.. It's different.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

If you've been at a level where you're winning regional/national tournaments in a developed metagame, it doesn't matter when you played. You can understand the game.

Kids nowadays think they're so fancy. Game hasn't changed that much over the past 5-6 years, just a bit faster and the follow-ups are more developed. It's not like us old-timers watch a new combo and go WHOA HOW DID THAT HAPPEN. We give a little nod and say, "huh, that follow-up makes sense if you shave a few frames here and there." It's impressive, and it's new, but it's nothing that people with established ability couldn't go back and add into their game.

If you've won a regional or national tournament, you're definitely qualified to have an opinion and be heard. You can still be wrong, but you are qualified.

before anything else, unless i'm wrong, he wasn't winning national tournaments back then, nor do i think he was winning NOTICEABLE regionals. regional is also so subjective since you can have like 3-4 people from different parts of america and have it a regional. i could be wrong anyway.

this whole thing isn't even about letting your opinion be heard though, it's about umbreon thinking he's the best teacher out there, in todays current metagame.

Game hasn't changed that much over the past 5-6 years

..really? I wholeheartedly disagree. Say chillen and azen came back to melee after not seeing the new meta for years, they sat in their room for about a week playing with eachother only, not learning new meta. Then they go up against some current day pro. You really think they would do good at all? I don't, i really don't.

(i'm aware they came back, just using a random example)

 

[Strong Badam]

Errr yeah. It is how it works. If you teach someone how to understand a game, their potential is unlocked. You can be talented and suck until you learn. You CAN become better than your teacher, you know.
People don't know of Umbreon now because of what he said; videos were largely just not recorded except at national/MLG level tournaments.

This is incredibly relevant to Melee's Flaw Dissected btw.

 

[Beat!]

Chillin didn't really get any super good results until he started adjusting to the current meta game...

It seems to be a never ending debate, but to me, the meta game really looks very different now compared to 4-5 years ago.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

wait that fish thing was a real example ?

no1 should even have to respond to that, lol.

hey i taught mango the basics of melee, i created him

 

[Beat!]

Trahh, Creator of Mango

 

[Strong Badam]

wait that fish thing was a real example ?

no1 should even have to respond to that, lol.

hey i taught mango the basics of melee, i created him

 

[Divinokage]

Errr yeah. It is how it works. If you teach someone how to understand a game, their potential is unlocked. You can be talented and suck until you learn. You CAN become better than your teacher, you know.
People don't know of Umbreon now because of what he said; videos were largely just not recorded except at national/MLG level tournaments.

This is incredibly relevant to Melee's Flaw Dissected btw.

Of course you can, that's called evolution lol. But all I was saying before was that a true teacher should keep growing too and not just teach stuff.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

lol..how? how was my example any less ludacris than "Give a man a fish, teach a man to fish."

 

[Strong Badam]

teaching someone how to SHFFL/wavedash != teaching them higher level understanding and how to win tournaments

 

[KishPrime]

..really? I wholeheartedly disagree. Say chillen and azen came back to melee after not seeing the new meta for years, they sat in their room for about a week playing with eachother only, not learning new meta. Then they go up against some current day pro. You really think they would do good at all? I don't, i really don't.

You're missing my point. Clearly they wouldn't be good after a week of practice. When you aren't actively competing, your skills degrade. You know what you want and need to do, but you can't do it.

Skills are far different from understanding. The underlying mindgames that are just as critical as the execution component never change. It's the same game. The application of skills is all that has changed, and that's easy to relearn.

Frankly, people abuse the word metagame. This has got nothing to do with the metagame (or maybe 10%). The metagame is just the knowledge of what works and what doesn't. You can learn that by watching videos. What matters is the ability to apply that knowledge through your skill, which is what "has-beens" lack.

 

[Mew2King]

most of you guys don't know what you're talking about

Mow (Umbreon) is the first smash player I knew actually, just before I even made my account back in 2002. My first tournament was 2005, and the first day we played he 4 stocked me in fox dittos, and often we went back and forth in fox dittos a lot in 05 and 06. And just to give you an idea of my skill at that time period, I was able to 3-0 great players like KoreanDJ in fox dittos at both MLG Anaheim and MLG Dallas back to back, so it's not like I'm bad at that matchup. He is one of the few fox's that can beat my sheik sometimes, and when you consider that I just 4 stocked Eggm this weekend in that MU that can say a lot. I also learned from him to up tilt edge guard fox illusion in fox dittos, which is a concept that I have used not only in that MU but got ideas to spawn from that as well, such as jabbing or down tilting the illusion with marth to set up for gimp kills, and F Tilt illusions sometimes with sheik.

he ACTUALLY IS really good, and DOES know what he's talking about with most things he says.

I've also teamed with him at Chu Dat biweekly before and won, pretty easily.

 

[Strong Badam]

aight guys im sorry im full of ****

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

just because m2k complimented umbreon doesn't mean what you just argued was good or right..at all


and kish, i get that the things that never change, never do, but skills are definitely largely part of the game changing within 5+ years

i just used a week as an example of practicing, enough to be back in the groove. it could be a month of sitting in their room getting un-rusty without learning the new meta, i still think they'd get bodied.

The application of skills is all that has changed, and that's easy to relearn

i don't agree, learning proper movement, spacing in accordance to new counters, learning the new counters, (counters to the counters, etcetc.) CC'ng, reaction time, new techskill, not to mention if you play fox or falco thats a whole new level of relearning your character. melee is one of the hardest games to control nowadays, i don't think anyone can deny that. this is not an easy game to relearn.

 

[Strong Badam]

what about kishprime's?

 

[Divinokage]

teaching someone how to SHFFL/wavedash != teaching them higher level understanding and how to win tournaments

I'm not sure if it's possible to teach someone how to completely change the way their mind works. Like having better mindgames just means you have more experience usually because YOU understand the game better, no teacher can teach you how to do that. My evidence is that NO ONE plays exactly the same because everyone has a unique style of play.

 

[Niko45]

lol m2k I 4 stocked eggm therefore mow is good.

I think some old school players would disagree with you about Mow.

As far as the game not changing that much LOL @ the example of like a single combo...how about things like tons of spacing tricks, SDI, CCing relentlessly, Falco/Fox shield pressure, general ledge stuff, Jigglypuff., how about something as simple as DIing properly...

Honestly you can watch top 8 evo 07 vids of melee and the DI is ****ing awful...no other way to put it.

It's cool that you can watch something happen and say "oh, that makes sense" but it's a way way different thing to actually be a player that is doing that.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Anyone who has played Umbreon says hes still really good. He was at a MD/VA weekly a few months ago and people were ranting and raving about how smart he is. I didn't get a chance to play him, but now I really regret it.

I mean, what, do you guys actually think hes a scrub a dub or something? That hes been playing for 9 years and hasn't learned anything along the way? Come on.

And no matter what you think of his particular views, its undeniable that hes had a profound effect on smash theory. Yeah, hes gotten a lot more abrasive over the years and he should probably try to be gentler, but its not like hes talking out of his ***.

The great thing about smashboards that just about no other competitive gaming community has is that the good, smart people post. Umbreon has been a part of that camp for a long time.

 

[Mew2King]

niko I am just giving one random example. I could name many others. The point I am trying to make it, that mow was incredibly good for his time, and I honestly believe he would be top 10 in today's metagame for sure if he continued the effort he had from back then based on his skills from the time.

Maybe I'm wrong, but what I am saying is that he IS credible and very good and DOES know what he is talking about with most things. I can personally attest to that.

 

[Niko45]

yea I don't sleep on old school. I don't really mean to **** on mow cause nobody I've talked to denies that he was good back then but comments like the game hasn't changed since 04 therefore mow is still an authority are really ridiculous.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

niko I am just giving one random example. I could name many others. The point I am trying to make it, that mow was incredibly good for his time, and I honestly believe he would be top 10 in today's metagame for sure if he continued the effort he had from back then based on his skills from the time.

Maybe I'm wrong, but what I am saying is that he IS credible and very good and DOES know what he is talking about with most things. I can personally attest to that.

but do you think that he could teach someone to be a top competitor in todays metagame? this doesn't verify anything for me, but i'm curious.

half the people jumping into this discussion think it's about if mow was a good player, it was about if he could still teach people to be a top level player, since he did 4-5 years ago. i think far too much has changed.

 

[Prince_Abu]

why is every1 so mean!! lets all b friends and play smash together!

 

[Strong Badam]

mow was a big part of why druggedfox got so good so quickly. he just never traveled so he never really got the experience/exposure to be well known or high level.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

druggedfox is great, but he's not a top competitor