Don't Approach: Melee's Flaw Dissected

[Max?]

On the topic of Old School vs New School:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbcNpoioZVo

 

[ShroudedOne]

I don't know why, but for some reason, I knew you were going to post that.

It's a good set, anyways.

 

[Warhawk]

Forward looked pretty good there actually for not having played in awhile... Just rusty. Has he played in any tournaments since?

 

[Max?]

He won a tournament in Arizona two weeks ago iirc

 

[Warhawk]

If that's the case then that's awesome. He was my first real inspiration to become a better Falco. I hope he makes a full comeback into the current smash scene, I always loved watching videos of him play.

 

[Strong Badam]

He used Sheik like an ******* tho IIRC.

 

[Warhawk]

He used Sheik like an ******* tho IIRC.

Damn, that just ruined it for me . Well that's incredibly disappointing...

 

[Max?]

I didn't know that, that ****ing sucks.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

yeah it was actually worse than just using shiek..he was getting ***** by TAI in marth vs falco for a few games in their set, then he switches to shiek and just wins out the rest basically.

 

[Divinokage]

What's wrong with winning by switching characters? ...

 

[Strong Badam]

because **** sheik

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

eh generally nothing but i find switching to shiek vs. marth (known to be quite rough for marth usually..) to be in bad taste, especially when falco is your actual main, you play falco because you like him alot and you think you're good with him, but your losing so you switch to your alternate, most would say 'not as good' character to lean a matchup in your favor.

sure there's nothing wrong with playing to win, i would never tell forward what he did was wrong, but i won't deny it's an easy out.

the same could be said about your argument for defensive play being gay.

 

[crush]

yeah i definitely agree.

 

[Warhawk]

What's wrong with winning by switching characters? ...

Nothing is wrong with winning. I'm just more disappointed because the guy was my inspiration for improving my play as Falco and was one of the biggest early influences on the Falco metagame. I just wanted to see more of that which I admired him for. Imagine you have someone you respect and is your inspiration for the way you play with their style of play and then you hear that they have come out of retirement. You then get all excited only to find they don't even play the same as they did that so inspired you in the first place. You'd be disappointed, no?

 

[Divinokage]

eh generally nothing but i find switching to shiek vs. marth (known to be quite rough for marth usually..) to be in bad taste, especially when falco is your actual main, you play falco because you like him alot and you think you're good with him, but your losing so you switch to your alternate, most would say 'not as good' character to lean a matchup in your favor.

sure there's nothing wrong with playing to win, i would never tell forward what he did was wrong, but i won't deny it's an easy out.

the same could be said about your argument for defensive play being gay.

What if he would have lost would you still say it's an easy out or would you say it was a terrible decision now? I don't really like extremes in this case. Both these choices deter from the player's skill, if he could have taken Sheik at that high of a level and still win that means he's quite good. It's about making smart choices for yourself sometimes when things don't go your way. Just like let's say i would take Falcon for Falco because I feel like I'm more comfortable with him just because I don't feel like my Ganon would win, inside tournament pressure does these things, i was legitimately scared to change what I normally do since I don't know what the outcome is going to be, sometimes you have to feel these things out. And spacies vs Marth is pretty gay too, imo, so ya. Using only one character is not always the answer because certain players know your playstyle so you do have to switch it up to throw them off somehow. I mean also it's not always about fanboyism, I know a lot of lower level players like to see someone use their legendary mains to own everyone but I mean sometimes it doesn't work out and it sucks ***. Just look at it from a top player's perspective not from what you want out of them.

Warhawk, I guess so but I mean the things that were working before generally don't really work right now so things do change, it's a lot harder. I know plenty of people that went to the dark side a long time ago, meaning they'll do whatever is necessary to win even by going against their code or what they believed in. But I mean to me if someone I idolized did this, then that would give me motivation to do it myself instead, I mean try to take the reins and continue to do whatever was being worked on. You can't rely on stronger people forever. =P

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

What if he would have lost would you still say it's an easy out or would you say it was a terrible decision now?

I would most definitely still call it an easy out that he failed at executing.

I don't really like extremes in this case. Both these choices deter from the player's skill, if he could have taken Sheik at that high of a level and still win that means he's quite good.

But if the matchup is much more balanced in falco vs marth than it is vs shiek, i wouldn't give him nearly as much credit. He uses less effort in this case, easily.

It's about making smart choices for yourself sometimes when things don't go your way.

Couldn't i use this exact example in your argument about defensive play being gay? You think playing defensively is not cool, but it's a smart strategy for winning. Why not do something that can further your chances of winning? I feel like you argued exactly what i'm arguing earlier (playing to win vs playing to win morally, i guess), this isn't much different of a scenario.

Just like let's say i would take Falcon for Falco because I feel like I'm more comfortable with him just because I don't feel like my Ganon would win, inside tournament pressure does these things, i was legitimately scared to change what I normally do since I don't know what the outcome is going to be, sometimes you have to feel these things out.

You switching from ganon to falcon against falco is much different than switching from falco to shiek against marth. You went from a terrible matchup to a more balanced out one, which is still not even in your favor. Forward went from a balanced matchup, to a matchup heavily favoring his character, in my opinion.

And spacies vs Marth is pretty gay too, imo, so ya. Using only one character is not always the answer because certain players know your playstyle so you do have to switch it up to throw them off somehow. I mean also it's not always about fanboyism, I know a lot of lower level players like to see someone use their legendary mains to own everyone but I mean sometimes it doesn't work out and it sucks ***. Just look at it from a top player's perspective not from what you want out of them.

It's not anything about what I want whatsoever. I'm simply stating that although forward made a smart choice in switching to shiek, I thought it was a copout/a win of less value. He couldn't figure out why his falco was being out played (he is not lacking in the marth MU i'm sure), so he relied more on the game rather than his actual mental ability. There's a reason he chose shiek of all characters vs marth. He's incredibly good with fox too, but he wasn't trying to just switch up things, he was going for the easiest matchup.

also 'a certain player knowing your style' is not a legit john, you should learn to counter that player knowing your style. switching your character doesn't even resolve that issue, i don't see that as very professional.



and lastly...

Originally Posted by
Isn't running away part of a player's strategy? So what if it's boring. It's not everyone's job to entertain everyone else. Are you trying to appease someone?

replace running away with switching characters.

Kage:
Of course it's not, but every action has it's consequence, how do you want to be remembered by?"

You confuse me, i could take your argument about gay defensive play and use those quotes to argue with your current argument. which side are you on?

 

[ShroudedOne]

Honestly? For the top seven, playing defensive is only just as "gay" as playing offensive.

 

[Beat!]

So now switching to Sheik when playing against Marth is "in bad taste" and "an easy way out"?

Dat mentality.

:/

 

[Strong Badam]

when you're Mother****ing Forward and are known for Falco? yea
it'd be like if darkrain started using jigglypuff or something... eugh

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

So now switching to Sheik when playing against Marth is "in bad taste" and "an easy way out"?

Dat mentality.

:/

when the matchup is pretty noticeably easier for shiek, then yes i do find that in bad taste. especially when you don't even main shiek.
have you ever seen m2k play as marth vs a shiek? actually, i have ONCE vs over and m2k lost. i would consider m2k a tier level itself above overtriforce, but he still lost.

exactly what SB said. beat, you over simplified the **** out of my point, but okay.

 

[Strong Badam]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCH5XwufAkQ

 

[Beat!]

I disagree completely, and I think it's a terrible mentality, but whatever.

 

[Divinokage]

You shouldn't link 2007 references anymore, things are much different. =P But I'll get to those points soon. Just gimme a sec I'm working atm. =P

 

[Max?]

Realistically tho switching from Falco to Sheik (in general) is moving down a tier or so

>.>

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

Realistically tho switching from Falco to Sheik (in general) is moving down a tier or so

>.>

well sure a tier list based on every matchup. in this case (playing vs marth) you would most definitely be moving up a tier.

lol 07' smash, he even loses and switches to fox >__>


im not saying people shouldn't switch characters during tournament, or that it's wrong, it's definitely a strategy to win during tournament. But aside from that, I just think it's (and it's not really a bad thing if you don't see it that way) an easy out. realistically you aren't solving your problem or bettering yourself as a player, you're only substituting your problem out with a "patch".

 

[Strong Badam]

Kage: "have you ever seen m2k play as marth vs a shiek?" does not specify a time frame

 

[ShroudedOne]

im not saying people shouldn't switch characters during tournament, or that it's wrong, I just think it's (and it's not really a bad thing if you don't see it that way) an easy out. realistically you aren't solving your problem, you're only substituting your problem out with a "patch".

I think that this is very important to note. There is not a top 7 MU that is unwinnable by any means (no, not eve Falcon vs spacies). So switching characters does really solve your problem with that MU, and it is an "easy way out" in terms of the matchup.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I thought it was a copout/a win of less value.

Im sorry, does winning by counterpicking not move you as far up in the bracket or something?

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

Im sorry, does winning by counterpicking not move you as far up in the bracket or something?

you should really read the last paragraph of my last post.

less value as in morally (dunno if that's the right choice of word), not statistically.

 

[Beat!]

im not saying people shouldn't switch characters during tournament, or that it's wrong, it's definitely a strategy to win during tournament. But aside from that, I just think it's (and it's not really a bad thing if you don't see it that way) an easy out. realistically you aren't solving your problem or bettering yourself as a player, you're only substituting your problem out with a "patch".

This I agree with completely. I even said it a little earlier in this thread (last page, I think?). But the way you worded it at first ("in bad taste") made it sound like you thought it was immoral or unfair or something.

Edit: Maybe it wasn't in this thread, but I've said it somewhere.

 

[da K.I.D.]

just as a point as reference

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyN8K-iDmOM i believe this is the set in question.

 

[Warhawk]

im not saying people shouldn't switch characters during tournament, or that it's wrong, it's definitely a strategy to win during tournament. But aside from that, I just think it's (and it's not really a bad thing if you don't see it that way) an easy out. realistically you aren't solving your problem or bettering yourself as a player, you're only substituting your problem out with a "patch".

This I agree alot more with then the rest of what you're saying. I wasn't trying to fault Forward earlier for switching, I just personally want to see him use that Falco he's known for. Though as you say, unfortunately by this strategy he is not growing and unfortunately it will make that comeback that I hope he can make that much more difficult.

 

[da K.I.D.]

how is learning multiple characters considered not growing as a player?

how is a person who plays 1 character at a high level somehow better than the player that plays 3 characters at that same level?

Apparently mango da bess in the world, and he plays like 7 characters...

you people confuse me.

 

[Strong Badam]

you can't read. we're stating that specifically going Sheik for the Marth match-up will make you win, but it won't improve your Falco or you as a player.
play to win etc. we aren't scrubs, we're talking long term improvement here.

 

[Beat!]

Yeah, we're not saying that people with more than one good character are worse (quite the opposite). We're saying that by switching character every time you're having a hard time against a certain character, you're potentially not improving long term.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

edit -nevermind LOL clearly handled

 

[da K.I.D.]

why does he need to improve his falco enough to overcome a bad matchup when he can be a BETTER and SMARTER PLAYER by switching to a matchup that is easier for him to win.

Player skill starts at the character selection screen.

the concept of not playing your main in every single matchup no matter how bad it is makes you a worse player is ********.

The only person here that had a legitamate point was the dude who just flat out said, 'yea it was a really smart move for forward to switch but i just really wanted to see more of his falco so i could study it an improve myself' everything else ive seen in here is ignorance.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

why does he need to improve his falco enough to overcome a bad matchup when he can be a BETTER and SMARTER PLAYER by switching to a matchup that is easier for him to win.

Player skill starts at the character selection screen.

the concept of not playing your main in every single matchup no matter how bad it is makes you a worse player is ********.

The only person here that had a legitamate point was the dude who just flat out said, 'yea it was a really smart move for forward to switch but i just really wanted to see more of his falco so i could study it an improve myself' everything ive seen in here is ignorance.

you seem more ignorant than anyone here..almost every post you make is a result of you not understanding the topic at hand..


for one, how does that make him a better or smarter player? If anything the most that means is that he's better at playing in tournament, as he has more options with his counter picking. Sure, i will give him that.

It's not the concept of playing your main in every single matchup at all. once again, you can't read.

 

[Strife]

At this point I think Forward's top priority is earning money and not improving at the game.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I understand the topic at hand just fine, but the points you guys are making are just plain nonsensical.