Don't Approach: Melee's Flaw Dissected

[crush]

AMRada ' s watching !

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

LOL great now imma get chewed out for his young link reasoning ;P

 

[Divinokage]

but how isn't that relevant? I had assumed that was the entire discussion, that forward chose the easy-out by switching to shiek. he is not bettering himself as a player by placing higher with shiek. He's bettering his tournament performance, sure..

I don't think that makes any sense, how do you become better by using the same main the whole tournament? The point is to win not make yourself have a hardtime.

I don't think this is true whatsoever though. Peepee analyzes the **** out of himself and his opponent during matches, just the other day he posted about "okay, i see im getting hit, why is this happening? etcetc."

I think only PP is able to do that which is why he's the best. Everything is ridiculous. When I play, I try to do reads and stuff based on how he's going to try to attack me but I mean asking myself why he did this in mid-battle? Man.. I personally don't even remember my matches.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me!
if you're getting beat the second game by the same exact tactics that beat you last time, why do you deserve to even win?

adapting is the entire discussion here. how can one not adapt throughout a match? thats a large part of this game.

It's not exactly the same tactics I'm refering to, I think everyone needs to stop thinking about perfect play here. The exact same tactics, some of them are guaranteed kills and there's always lots of ways to put you in there since there are situations which will happen at different times. You might be able to adapt but eventually you'll find yourself getting spiked or gimped it's just setup differently, even if you adapted the other can adapt too and put you in the same ****. How else do you think M2k is able to crush spacies all the time, it looks the same but in reality there's little differences as to how he's going to approach you with marth and then kill off your stock.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

I don't think that makes any sense, how do you become better by using the same main the whole tournament? The point is to win not make yourself have a hardtime.

You're not becoming better by using the same main all tournament, you're bettering yourself by understanding why your character is losing, instead of substituting your problem with a different character. staying one character all tournament isn't the point, it's switching from your character that's losing.

I think only PP is able to do that which is why he's the best. Everything is ridiculous. When I play, I try to do reads and stuff based on how he's going to try to attack me but I mean asking myself why he did this in mid-battle? Man.. I personally don't even remember my matches.

You honestly don't think Mango, Armada, Hbox etc. don't do this throughout a match? Honestly this is largely why they are some of the best out there, they are adaptive players to their surrounding. Being able to adapt throughout a match is much more valuable than adapting by switching your character.

It's not exactly the same tactics I'm refering to, I think everyone needs to stop thinking about perfect play here. The exact same tactics, some of them are guaranteed kills and there's always lots of ways to put you in there since there are situations which will happen at different times. You might be able to adapt but eventually you'll find yourself getting spiked or gimped it's just setup differently, even if you adapted the other can adapt too and put you in the same ****. How else do you think M2k is able to crush spacies all the time, it looks the same but in reality there's little differences as to how he's going to approach you with marth and then kill off your stock.

I wasn't being literal about exact tactics, but generally if someone is winning playing a certain way, they are gonna continue on playing how they were.


i feel like your whole argument is 'sometimes you can't do anything about the situation, and you just have to switch your character to fix things', which i don't agree at all. we probably lose discussion at this point.

 

[BigD!!!]

i think the problem here is that trahh has some romantic notion of what it means to be a good player that is separate from being good at winning in tournament

if a marth wants to be considered good, it should be able to beat sheiks that people dont use except to pull out vs marths. if the sheiks are good enough to beat good marths, then why would you disrespect someone for using a character that they've trained with for years to get it to the point that they can use it at a top level?

marths beat bad sheik mains all the time, but apparently its more respectable to lose while maining sheik than to switch to sheik and win

winning any matchup with any character takes skill and practice; having multiple characters that can win sets is respectable in my opinion. maybe it does inhibit you in the long run of becoming a top player, but its still something that they worked at

 

[Divinokage]

Ya exactly, actually I disagree with the fact that playing multiple characters essentially reduces your chances to become better. Viewing other character's functionality takes a complete different mindset as to how you approach every matchup. So when you know how the characters function a lot better than it becomes even easier to read the opponent. Like I said in tournament, sometimes you have to feel it out. It depends on who I guess. Take Vanz for example, he's amazing with lots of characters and uses his characters appropriately depending on how it feels more comfortable for him. Forward probably did the same thing, he chose Sheik because he felt he had a higher chance of winning at the time.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

lol romantic

i never once said forward wasn't a good player for switching. I said it was an easy out and that he is not improving himself as a player by doing what he did.

if a marth wants to be considered good, it should be able to beat sheiks that people dont use except to pull out vs marths. if the sheiks are good enough to beat good marths, then why would you disrespect someone for using a character that they've trained with for years to get it to the point that they can use it at a top level?

Right, but this isn't about the marth. Tai needing to practice more vs shiek is on him. That doesn't change forwards choices of character. if he chose shiek from the beginning , then that's one thing (actually no that still would be wrong, what i meant was if he already mained shiek, then the shiek vs. marth was already inevitable). but he didn't, he felt he could win with falco, but couldn't, and couldn't figure out why after 2-3 matcghes.

marths beat bad sheik mains all the time, but apparently its more respectable to lose while maining sheik than to switch to sheik and win

I do find this to be true, because the shiek mains play shiek already, they enjoy playing shiek and are maining her. youre not picking this character to win vs marths(as forward did), it just works out that way for you already.

maybe it does inhibit you in the long run of becoming a top player, but its still something that they worked at

this is largely my point. yes i do respect them for understanding multiple character at their level, but it still puts them back as a player for not understanding why they are losing, and instead solving it with a character switch.


kage playing multiple characters doesnt reduce your chances to become better, but if you are swithcing your character throughout a set because you are losing, then yes that will reduce your chances.

 

[BigD!!!]

regardless of all that, no reason to hate on the dude for being overall a more capable player than his opponent

 

[ShroudedOne]

I love reading arguments where one side completely misunderstands what the other is saying, and refuses to acknowledge such.

@Max and Strong Bad: You guys obviously don't know about that blue Zelda. Come on, guys. Don't sleep.

 

[Strong Badam]

Blue DK is broken. I have too much honor to use him and instead use Black DK.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

I love reading arguments where one side completely misunderstands what the other is saying, and refuses to acknowledge such.

me too


@bigD, saying he chose an easy-out for the win isn't really hating. i really admire forward as a player, but it doesn't mean i cant criticize a cheap win. he probably could care less.

this whole argument is just based off me thinking he chose the easyout/less valuable of a win, wasn't a huge deal i was just defending my reasoning for that, which kinda turned the topic into why changing your character while losing mid set is less valuable rather than understanding why you are losing.

 

[Divinokage]

kage playing multiple characters doesnt reduce your chances to become better, but if you are swithcing your character throughout a set because you are losing, then yes that will reduce your chances.

I see what you are saying but I feel like it's not an actual truth. It's very safe to assume that by now we should at least know the match-ups, every single one of them maybe except a few obscure ones but yes sometimes it's not only just the character. Why wouldn't you try something new if you are already getting owned 0-2 in GFs for example? Do you think you'll have enough time to beat your opponent before he beats you? A change of pace is sometimes the key. If you are talking about bettering yourself as a player then everything needs to be considered not just one character vs all 26 matchups. There's always more options.

You said that him using Sheik while I'm using Falcon to CP is not the same thing because I still have the bad match-ups but I still felt like I had better chances to win if I chose Falcon, these things need to be felt on the spot, it's not always about the match-ups themselves as to how YOU play the match-up. Which is why I made sure to emphasize that certain styles can counter yours.

 

[da K.I.D.]

you guys honestly think it betters you just as much switching your character, as much as it would by understanding WHY you were losing with your current character and resolving the issue?

I would think that at that point in time, if you can analyse why falco lost and come to the conclusion that maybe falco was being too agressive, leading ot getting grabbed by marth which was ending stocks early. To stay falco, the counter to this would be to play more campy and safe, so as not to fall into the traps. But if he understands this, then the choice is, do I stay falco and play campy to counter this, which he may not like to do, or do I play a character in which i can continue to play agressive, and simultaneously avoid his traps as well.

In this situation, he may very well, CLEARLY understand why his falco is losing, and chooses to switch anyway. You can have your cake and eat it too in this case, which is why im saying that you cant seperate the two issues as easily as you claim.

adapting is the entire discussion here. how can one not adapt throughout a match? thats a large part of this game.

why is character choice not considered a method of adapting to you?

Also what if Forward DOES recognize what he's doing wrong and so fixes that by switching characters? Maybe he recognizes he won't be able to fix his Falco's style for the Marth matchup as immediately as he could by switching to his Sheik who has a different style than his Falco to begin with that may be more suited to Marth.

i don't think he does recognize the problem, or he would've solved it. That would be a very weird mentality to understand what your doing wrong and now you know how to not lose, but then you switch to shiek for the **** of it. >____>

not really, if you analyse the match and see what you did wrong and understand what you need to change to win, and then come to the conclusion that that change would be best implemented by a different character, what reason is there NOT to switch.

You honestly don't think Mango, Armada, Hbox etc. don't do this throughout a match? Honestly this is largely why they are some of the best out there, they are adaptive players to their surrounding. Being able to adapt throughout a match is much more valuable than adapting by switching your character.

regardless of which one is MORE important, you speak as if one of those isnt important at all.

this is largely my point. yes i do respect them for understanding multiple character at their level, but it still puts them back as a player for not understanding why they are losing, and instead solving it with a character switch.

You can understand why your losing and still want to switch characters due to like I said, your secondary (which we have concluded that he has had for a while now) fitting the bill for the necessary changes better than your main.

Tournaments arent the time to improve. Thats what friendlies and practice times are for. Tournament time is when you, like Kage said, put your established plan into action and follow through with the choices that are most likely to get you the W

 

[BigD!!!]

yeah really i was arguing more with the whole group that started this like 2 pages ago

i just see a win as a win, probably because i switch characters all the time. i love the feeling of ruining what they thought was gonna be a good counterpick, or letting them feel like they have no options of where to go

i dont consider switching to sheik vs marth an easyout either, just because if you expect to actually win with sheik you still do have to put the work in. it might be relatively advantaged, but its far from free, especially if you dont play sheik a lot

sometimes you can recognize why youre losing, but not feel like you can make the adjustment within that match and it will be more like something you'd work on for the next tournament or something. i dunno, i just can think of a million reasons to change characters at least occasionally that i wouldnt consider cheap or easy-outs at all

 

[Divinokage]

It's definitely never an easy-out unless you go to extreme match-ups.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

I see what you are saying but I feel like it's not an actual truth. It's very safe to assume that by now we should at least know the match-ups, every single one of them maybe except a few obscure ones but yes sometimes it's not only just the character. Why wouldn't you try something new if you are already getting owned 0-2 in GFs for example? Do you think you'll have enough time to beat your opponent before he beats you? A change of pace is sometimes the key. If you are talking about bettering yourself as a player then everything needs to be considered not just one character vs all 26 matchups. There's always more options.

I still feel like you are dicussing the right way to win tournament, which isn't what i'm talkin' about. Being down in tournament and switching your character is the right way to win, but it isn't the right way to understand your flaws.

i also don't think friendlies are nearly as valuable to learn from.


da kid it was implied throughout this entire convo that he wasn't aware of the issues, and that switching char's was his resolution, you basically even went with this idea.


imma go ahead and drop this discussion, i feel like it's going nowhere now since some things are simply seen completely different (kage thinking only PP adapts well in a match, or that some problems can't be solved and that a matchup change can help, i simply just don't agree with these points, everyone has their own view though.)

also people keep discussing about how he made the right choices to win in tournament, which i've said countless times that i agree with those choices 100%

 

[da K.I.D.]

How do you become a better player without winning/placing higher in tournament is my point.

The two concept are not seperate entities, its just two sides of the same coin

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

Because you are learning from your mistakes. If you are already a pretty decent player with shiek and falco, and your falco can't win, and you switch to shiek and win convincingly (as he did), then what have you gained as a player? you've placed higher in tournament, but that doesn't mean anything.

now if you stick with falco and start understanding your flaws, but still lose, then you have learned something for the future without placing higher. bettering yourself.

it's about playing2learn, not playing2win. unless youre at a national. :3 jk, sorta.

 

[da K.I.D.]

you dont do that in tournament tho. you do that kind of learning when there isnt money on the line.

and you can still learn your flaws, and still want to switch.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

eh but who knows how valuable that learning is when your playing that same person in a friendly.

also how do you know if you learned from your mistakes, if you switch instead of testing your theory? i'd understand if you switch after winning convincingly, but that wasn't the case.

 

[Divinokage]

Because you are learning from your mistakes. If you are already a pretty decent player with shiek and falco, and your falco can't win, and you switch to shiek and win convincingly (as he did), then what have you gained as a player? you've placed higher in tournament, but that doesn't mean anything.

now if you stick with falco and start understanding your flaws, but still lose, then you have learned something for the future without placing higher. bettering yourself.

it's about playing2learn, not playing2win. unless youre at a national. :3 jk, sorta.

I guess it hasn't been said that you can learn from anything you do even if you play to win.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

I guess it hasn't been said that you can learn from anything you do even if you play to win.

yes of course you can learn from playing2win.

my point was Forward winning as shiek was much less knowledge for him to take in than he would have gotten from finishing out the set as falco.

or maybe you're just pointing that out anyways, whatever

 

[Divinokage]

Why's that though? It's one game.. if he would have won with Falco then he's not really learning anything more either.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

Well regardless of the set count, I just meant he would be learning more losing as falco than he would be ****** as shiek. I guess the set count makes that kinda iffy, but that was never what i meant. And if he wins with falco atleast once, and it's convincing and not a fluke, then he has successfully learned from losing a match ago, which i would be really proud of.

 

[Strong Badam]

this thread is even more boring than the OP now

 

[Divinokage]

Leave the real men to talk about business yo.

 

[Strong Badam]

lol kage you're hilarious sometimes

 

[Shroomed]

lol kage you're hilarious sometimes

Agreed x10000. I take all his posts for their comedic value nowadays.

 

[crush]

^yeah same

 

[Tee ay eye]

 

[Divinokage]

What is this troll city? Stfu all of you.

 

[crush]

Lol cages posts keep getting funnier and more stupid :D

 

[Tee ay eye]

At this point I think Forward's top priority is earning money and not improving at the game.

We split, so it was all pride

Well sometimes there's certain styles which outright beat you and there's nothing you can do about it

I would disagree with that assuming we're talking about like, the top 8 characters. As Ganon, there might be nothing you can do about it, but I don't think there's ever a situation in the top/high tiers where you are simply style-countered and have "nothing you can do about it."

TAI had every opportunity to switch from Marth to another character to counter Forward's Sheik. The fact that he didn't and mostly can't == Forward being a better player overall. It's the person that makes the character, not the other way around.

I definitely could have switched to another character. I mained space animals for 1-2 years, and still have all the tech skill. Hell, my tech skill is leagues better than it was when I used Fox and Falco. I'm easily the most technical player in Arizona behind Axe, though that's not saying much. However, I'm super idealistic about playing Marth, so I'd rather take the loss than switch.

I'm not saying I deserved to win, but I'm saying I didn't want to win unless I did it with Marth.

Hell, it's not really even a matter of idealism. I just care more about long-term improvement rather than short-term wins, especially considering that we split the pot. Also, towards the whole counterpicking argument, I think I would grow a lot more as a player by making improvements to my game to overcome bad matchups rather than trying to circumvent them entirely. In my experience, when you make a breakthrough with a focus in one matchup, it transcends character and can be applied to many other situations, making you an overall more solid player. Tl;dr: In my opinion, counterpicking hinders long-term improvement.

Tai is a really technical player and Forward's tech is pretty solid but nothing incredible and sometimes not so good and if you can't keep up when you're playing Falco, throw the matchup chart out the window, you're done.

So basically he goes sheik because it minimizes the stress on his own execution and reduces how strong of an advantage Tai can push with superior tech skill. If he plays a matchup that mostly stresses patience, spacing, and experience he can win. So basically despite being so outclassed in tech he chooses a matchup that emphasizes his strengths as a player more while marginalizing his opponent's strengths.

It's not just about Marth vs Falco or Marth vs Sheik in a vacuum.

Agreed

Because you are learning from your mistakes. If you are already a pretty decent player with shiek and falco, and your falco can't win, and you switch to shiek and win convincingly (as he did), then what have you gained as a player? you've placed higher in tournament, but that doesn't mean anything.

now if you stick with falco and start understanding your flaws, but still lose, then you have learned something for the future without placing higher. bettering yourself.

it's about playing2learn, not playing2win. unless youre at a national. :3 jk, sorta.

Agreed with this, too.

 

[Warhawk]

I think its pretty cool when players have enough respect for one another to split the winnings, but still play out the grand finals.

 

[Shroomed]

What is this troll city? Stfu all of you.

No matter what you say in your post, I always see a "THE WARRIOR" at the end. I've tried to fight it to no avail.

And I'm not trolling.

I could go back and quote how you say people shouldn't play defensively and all that because it's "gay", while defending that switching characters to counterpick a matchup is a necessary condition to win for some. So if playing defensively is what some players do to win, why do you not condone this? Why is it ok to go Sheik and chaingrab a Pichu player all day, but it's not alright to laser camp?

Your mindset is right, but the way you support makes me think you should be on dat der yellow bus when you post.

 

[mesa23]

Your mindset is right, but the way you support makes me think you should be on dat der yellow bus when you post.

by yellow bus do you mean a bus made of cheese? like you're implying the cage is cheesy?

 

[crush]

No he's saying that the cage is metaphorically made of cheese, so all of cage's victims can easily break out from the inside

 

[Divinokage]

No matter what you say in your post, I always see a "THE WARRIOR" at the end. I've tried to fight it to no avail.

And I'm not trolling.

I could go back and quote how you say people shouldn't play defensively and all that because it's "gay", while defending that switching characters to counterpick a matchup is a necessary condition to win for some. So if playing defensively is what some players do to win, why do you not condone this? Why is it ok to go Sheik and chaingrab a Pichu player all day, but it's not alright to laser camp?

Your mindset is right, but the way you support makes me think you should be on dat der yellow bus when you post.

Why does everyone keep bringing that up? I don't get it. lol. How do you think the game should be played?

 

[Deleted member]

Why does everyone keep bringing that up? I don't get it. lol. How do you think the game should be played?

on a couch, away from the yellow bus. you always defend either the most ******** angle possible, or you start getting the right idea and then contradict yourself.

like i said, no one says you're a bad player, just horrible at posting your ideas. or your ideas are actually horrible and you post them accurately.

 

[Divinokage]

Of course I contradict myself, aren't we supposed to look at things from different angles? I may say something from one point of view then change to another which might contradict the previous one. It definitely happens a lot, but the point of this is trying to be creative. And yes, I did explain already that I'm bad at explaining stuff which is why I'm posting, I'm training not to be bad at posting. Everything can be a good exercise right? And I mean maybe I'm right or not at times but one thing for sure is that I hate thinking I'm right and then something else comes right through to tell me otherwise, which is why I try to look at things from whatever angle possible... it may seem random but that's who I am. Think of it as thought bubbles that comes to mind.