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Don't Approach: Melee's Flaw Dissected
- Thread starter Hax
- Start date
Warhawk
Smash Lord
He isn't learning multiple characters if he only uses sheik to beat one matchup that his Falco can't that is much more in Sheik's favor. He isn't learning by that, merely taking advantage of that matchup. That won't work against top players. If he was using sheik for more than just this matchup or even for more than when his Falco can't beat that matchup it would be learning but it doesn't seem to be the case here.
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
no one is saying that, correct lol.
da kid doesn't seem to realize the discussion. he keeps going on about how smart and better of forward it was to switch in tournament, i have nothing against that. that isn't relevant.
i like how were all nonsensical while everyone is basically telling him he can't read/is posting things no1 is talking about
this post i made earlier should easily make sense dude.
trahh said:
Beat!
Smash Master
M2K does great vs anyone that's not PP, Mango, Armada or Hbox (and he occasionally does good vs them too)...
Divinokage
Smash Legend
I don't really understand the part where you are not growing as a player when you are switching with a character that you are most likely more comfortable with a match-up. The smart choice should be to switch it up and not be a hard headed noob where as everyone else can get used to you, it's good to make your opponent guess outside the game.
Well sometimes there's certain styles which outright beat you and there's nothing you can do about it which is why switching characters can be the real answer as the psychology between each character is different apparently. You can't beat a problem that will always be there in certain matchups like getting destroyed off-stage or gimped at low % where everyone knows it happens a lot in marth vs falco. Sometimes you don't really want to deal with that because you might be shook or pressured. What's the real problem here? Switching styles in battle is pretty much impossible as it takes usually months or years to actually perfect new techniques sometimes so you have to think on the spot. So ya if the style doesn't work, you probably have to switch char, why do you think I always get 5th at locals.. it's usually because I get either outright owned by the match-up or the players know me inside-out and because of my chars weakness there's nowhere to go.
Well sometimes there's certain styles which outright beat you and there's nothing you can do about it which is why switching characters can be the real answer as the psychology between each character is different apparently. You can't beat a problem that will always be there in certain matchups like getting destroyed off-stage or gimped at low % where everyone knows it happens a lot in marth vs falco. Sometimes you don't really want to deal with that because you might be shook or pressured. What's the real problem here? Switching styles in battle is pretty much impossible as it takes usually months or years to actually perfect new techniques sometimes so you have to think on the spot. So ya if the style doesn't work, you probably have to switch char, why do you think I always get 5th at locals.. it's usually because I get either outright owned by the match-up or the players know me inside-out and because of my chars weakness there's nowhere to go.
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
I feel people are seeing growing as a player differently all together. I don't consider winning a tournament by switching to shiek bettering yourself as a player over losing and taking 2nd as falco. he didn't better himself by switching to a matchup he was more comfortable with, he just made a better TOURNAMENT decision. he wasn't learning from his mistakes, he was just pushing his mistakes away. Yes i agree this is a good tournament decision and is the right choice for trying to win tournament. That is not my point.
i completely disagree and this is probably where our discussion started. i guarantee the top 10 players in the world would disagree aswell.
i feel the opposite. how is someone bettering themself as a player by instead of solving your problem, you are substituting it. where is he growing here? again yes he is growing as a tournament player by having more counter-pick options and more answers to his dilemmas, but that is not the same concept.
Beat!
Smash Master
You're potentially not growing. For some players, it might work (it would probably yield some success for everyone at some point). But by only using this pseudo-secondary in tournament vs one single character, chances are you won't be able to look at the bigger picture.
Warhawk
Smash Lord
See but M2K has trained and studied for those matchups and advanced himself as a player by learning certain matchups with certain characters to get the best of all of them to apply all of the tools he has from them at his will. I feel that's different then just picking up Sheik to get a solid advantage against a Marth player because you aren't playing the Marth matchup very well. However if Forward has trained for this situation with Sheik in preparation for that and would do that against top players as well then that's fine, but from my understanding that wasn't the case. I feel like against a top player he would have stayed Falco knowing that a top player wouldn't fall to something like that.
Not sure if that's exactly what you were saying so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong...
I'm also not meaning to rant/hate on Forward. I respect the hell out of Forward. I just would like to see him return to the top of the competitive scene and I feel like he can't do that with those methods. Not that he has to prove anything anymore to anyone either...
Beat!
Smash Master
^Lol my bad, I coulda sworn you mentioned M2K in your last post haha.
(I agree with you)
(I agree with you)
Max?
Smash Champion
TAI had every opportunity to switch from Marth to another character to counter Forward's Sheik. The fact that he didn't and mostly can't == Forward being a better player overall. It's the person that makes the character, not the other way around.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,545
I'm pretty sure Doctor Mario is broken, Max
Beat!
Smash Master
Not as broken as DK, though.
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
10charssssssssmy last post said:
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
What if he considers playing falco against marth to be his 'mistake'? wouldnt he be learning from that mistake by changing?
this.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Then what's the point in using Falco to get 2nd and not use Sheik to get 1st? Tournament is not the time to grow yourself as a player, I mean **** your life is on the line.
You can do all that outside of tournaments and simply use your tournament experience to better yourself after, just use Falco against Marth more and if you still can't do it then practice Sheik vs Marth.. idk. lol.
Warhawk
Smash Lord
That's not what we're arguing. We're trying to argue that switching to Sheik just to counter Marth players worse than himself does not help Forward grow and get back into the competitive scene... Unless of course this is not the case and he does use Sheik for more than this or has studied the Sheik v Marth matchup to have an ace in his back pocket. Doesn't AXE get to play Forward frequently enough? I wonder where he is so we can ask him about Forward's Sheik.
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
wtf? how can you jsut say "this". when i literally pointed out 3+ times how this is a completely different concept.
this is getting to the point where i feel like your trolling, but you aren't.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
what about responding to my first and more important poiint trahh
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
this doesn't seem to be getting across to people holy ****
again, again, again, again, yes he is growing as a tournament player by having more counter-pick options and more answers to his dilemmas, but that is not the same concept.
i am talking about bettering himself as a player. learning WHY you are losing a match is much more valuable in the long haul rather putting your unresolved problem away and using a substituted solution.
again, again, again, again, yes he is growing as a tournament player by having more counter-pick options and more answers to his dilemmas, but that is not the same concept.
i am talking about bettering himself as a player. learning WHY you are losing a match is much more valuable in the long haul rather putting your unresolved problem away and using a substituted solution.
Beat!
Smash Master
The discussion isn't about which one of Tai and Forward is the better player (because IMO Forward is still better), it's about which one of them is more likely to improve faster.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
you never responded to this.
The disconnect here is happening because the two concepts are not mutually exclusive. They are interconnected and cant really be seperated.
Niko45
Smash Master
If your Falco main is getting bodied that hard your sheik secondary isn't at all guaranteed to win.
Basically you have to look at the specifics in matchups, not just the general matchup ratio or whatever to see why Forward won.
Tai is a really technical player and Forward's tech is pretty solid but nothing incredible and sometimes not so good and if you can't keep up when you're playing Falco, throw the matchup chart out the window, you're done.
So basically he goes sheik because it minimizes the stress on his own execution and reduces how strong of an advantage Tai can push with superior tech skill. If he plays a matchup that mostly stresses patience, spacing, and experience he can win. So basically despite being so outclassed in tech he chooses a matchup that emphasizes his strengths as a player more while marginalizing his opponent's strengths.
It's not just about Marth vs Falco or Marth vs Sheik in a vacuum.
Basically you have to look at the specifics in matchups, not just the general matchup ratio or whatever to see why Forward won.
Tai is a really technical player and Forward's tech is pretty solid but nothing incredible and sometimes not so good and if you can't keep up when you're playing Falco, throw the matchup chart out the window, you're done.
So basically he goes sheik because it minimizes the stress on his own execution and reduces how strong of an advantage Tai can push with superior tech skill. If he plays a matchup that mostly stresses patience, spacing, and experience he can win. So basically despite being so outclassed in tech he chooses a matchup that emphasizes his strengths as a player more while marginalizing his opponent's strengths.
It's not just about Marth vs Falco or Marth vs Sheik in a vacuum.
Warhawk
Smash Lord
I think the issue is that we're wondering if that Sheik is in fact a secondary or just a character he picked up for that match and because of the matchup advantages to get over his Falco not being able to handle the matchup against TAI. However the more I think about it I think that Forward might actually have a Sheik secondary and more than he just uses for Marth.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
well i youtube searched forwards shiek and the first vid that came up was from four years ago. so i dont think he just picked her up recent just to counter that one match.
Warhawk
Smash Lord
This is not true. If you're a Dr. Mario player and you for whatever reason cannot get past Jigglypuff and in tournament a player worse than you is against you and you might lose so you take up Fox and circle camp the entire set to win you still haven't solved your Jigglypuff problem. You haven't grown and against a better player that won't work and you're back to the same dilemna.
Niko45
Smash Master
They had a set like 6 months ago where Tai lost game 1 to Forward's Falco and Tai ended up beating his sheik in game 3, so go figure.
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
yes i did respond to that da kid like 5 different times saying hes bettering himself in tournament. switching to falco does not make things any different. he is not solving the problem he had while he was playing the character prior to falco. picking a different character is not bettering yourself as a player.
i don't think bettering yourself in tournament and bettering yourself as a player are the same at all. one is applying what you've learned into a competitive environment. the other is learning/improving yourself at the game.
i don't think bettering yourself in tournament and bettering yourself as a player are the same at all. one is applying what you've learned into a competitive environment. the other is learning/improving yourself at the game.
this is alot of words dedicated to something i'm not arguing mang.
Strife
Banned via Warnings
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2011
- Messages
- 786
I think what you're missing is that, defeating Marth's in the falco match-up instead of switching to Shiek, doesn't just make you grew in the Marth match-up; it improves your falco game overall and that's why people are saying that Forward is running away and not learning when he switches characters for the(an even one at that) match-up.
Max?
Smash Champion
This whole topic is dumb.
I know.
He's like #3 on the tier list, Doc's #1 atm I think.
Warhawk
Smash Lord
Yea I think this is the case which is why I was arguing that he isn't improving ONLY if he just picked Sheik to avoid his own Falco's problems to beat a lesser player. I do think Sheik is a secondary though in which to keep in his back tournament as an extra tool, thus making it an asset to his game.
I still would have liked to see him go Falco, but that's just for my own personal desires lol.
Beat!
Smash Master
If Forward is actively using Sheik as a secondary, then he's kind of a bad example. The point was regarding players who just change to a character they never use otherwise, because of a single matchup. And even then, it's not about how good they are NOW. It's about what kind of improvement rate they will have.
@Max
It's clear that DK's inner potential is way ahead of anything Doc could throw out. I mean, look at that taunt. Look at it.
@Max
It's clear that DK's inner potential is way ahead of anything Doc could throw out. I mean, look at that taunt. Look at it.
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
i don't think it really matters if he plays shiek actively or not. regardless, he is still switching from his intended character, not solving the problem he had while losing with that character, and solving it with something that causes him less problems, clearly. I don't see how this isn't clear.
you guys honestly think it betters you just as much switching your character, as much as it would by understanding WHY you were losing with your current character and resolving the issue?
you guys honestly think it betters you just as much switching your character, as much as it would by understanding WHY you were losing with your current character and resolving the issue?
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,545
i almost beat Dart in a set w/ DK.
you guys just don't know about how broken he is
you guys just don't know about how broken he is
Niko45
Smash Master
Oh ya idc about the argument I was just commenting
Beat!
Smash Master
But if he's actively playing Sheik, then that's just as much (or at least almost) his "intended" character.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Ya but Trahh you said he isn't bettering himself as a player when he chose Sheik which is completely irrelevant because he is in a tournament with his life on the line already. It might of been a tough decision but it payed off still. I mean the problem could be the stage too where Sheik could be good on. (I didn't watch the match but this should be taken into account). There's no TIME to think about why you lost, you do that outside of tourney... all you have is your own gameplan that you planned ahead before the tournament. Like I said before the problems never disappear in match-ups, it's always going to be there.. you might have lost because you failed to mix it up and then you are dead off-stage, it's simple as that. Ya you understood why you lost but why would want to deal with the same thing twice?? This is melee remember? A million situations possible where the littliest thing can be your downfall, sometimes you can't even understand why you lost because anything can happen in a match.
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
regardless, he is not solving the problem he was having. He is not understanding why his falco was losing to marth. so instead of solving that issue, he avoids. this is a a huge part of bettering yourself as a player, or improving yourself. switching characters does not improve yourself..
i hope forward thinks i completely hate him even though he pioneered my main.
responding to your post kage.
but how isn't that relevant? I had assumed that was the entire discussion, that forward chose the easy-out by switching to shiek. he is not bettering himself as a player by placing higher with shiek. He's bettering his tournament performance, sure..kage said:
I don't think this is true whatsoever though. Peepee analyzes the **** out of himself and his opponent during matches, just the other day he posted about "okay, i see im getting hit, why is this happening? etcetc."
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me!
if you're getting beat the second game by the same exact tactics that beat you last time, why do you deserve to even win?
adapting is the entire discussion here. how can one not adapt throughout a match? thats a large part of this game.
Warhawk
Smash Lord
Yes as long as its a tool in preparation for tournament play. I mean no one would argue M2K is bad but he uses multiple characters to account for certain matchups. He's giving himself multiple tools at his disposal. It'd be different if he was just doing it to avoid his own character's problems because he knows it will work against a player worse than him. But if he's just accounted for more situations then that makes him a better player for covering more scenarios.
Also what if Forward DOES recognize what he's doing wrong and so fixes that by switching characters? Maybe he recognizes he won't be able to fix his Falco's style for the Marth matchup as immediately as he could by switching to his Sheik who has a different style than his Falco to begin with that may be more suited to Marth.
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
gah i feel like i have said this like 10+ times. I am not saying he's making the wrong choices in tournament play. he clearly did the right thing to win, he has more counter options.
He's covering more options outside of the game yes, but he is not understanding why he is losing, which is crucial.
i don't think he does recognize the problem, or he would've solved it. That would be a very weird mentality to understand what your doing wrong and now you know how to not lose, but then you switch to shiek for the **** of it. >____>
Max?
Smash Champion
This is true.
I can't believe I of all people would forget how powerful DK becomes when he's blue.