Don't Approach: Melee's Flaw Dissected

[Strong Badam]

which I said

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

okay, well not sure what your post before last really provides

anyways i love melee's flaw dissected

 

[tarheeljks]

i don't agree, learning proper movement, spacing in accordance to new counters, learning the new counters, (counters to the counters, etcetc.) CC'ng, reaction time, new techskill, not to mention if you play fox or falco thats a whole new level of relearning your character. melee is one of the hardest games to control nowadays, i don't think anyone can deny that. this is not an easy game to relearn.

idk, not sure how true this is after seeing recent vids of pc chris, though idk the extent to which he stopped playing melee


edit: the part about learning/applying new tech, not the part about melee characters being difficult to control

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

idk, not sure how true this is after seeing recent vids of pc chris, though idk the extent to which he stopped playing melee


edit: the part about learning/applying new tech, not the part about melee characters being difficult to control

from what i have seen/heard, he still plays allllllllllllll the time and has been for quite awhile, he definitely has been up to date with the metagame.

 

[Deleted member]

I appreciate the compliments and hate equally.

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

 

[Divinokage]

You definitely cannot have absolutely everyone to like you or to hate you, that would be absurd for sure. I guess that's why some people don't like me being a warrior. =)

 

[Pi]

nevvverrrmindddd jus gonna say umbreon that that quote is...out of place in this instance lol

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

i wasn't aware you had enemies within a smash community

 

[Divinokage]

Well I'd consider some people not liking you or being rivals to be enemies.

 

[Niko45]

no umbreon in this context it just means you've been kind of a douche on an internet forum lol

 

[Deleted member]

You definitely cannot have absolutely everyone to like you or to hate you, that would be absurd for sure. I guess that's why some people don't like me being a warrior. =)

the only people that don't like you are that way because many of your posts are inane or straight nonsensical. as far as i know, everyone thinks you are a good player and/or support your positive views on the game, self-improvement, etc.

 

[Divinokage]

the only people that don't like you are that way because many of your posts are inane or straight nonsensical. as far as i know, everyone thinks you are a good player and/or support your positive views on the game, self-improvement, etc.

Hey man, I cannot be perfect but I can always try to be. lol.

 

[Deleted member]

Hey man, I cannot be perfect but I can always try to be. lol.

i've met/played you a few times, you're a nice guy and a good player. you just say things that make no sense sometimes.

niko if you care about douchebags on internet forums you should talk to the other max before you talk to me lol. he's got me flat out beat.

 

[KishPrime]

It's cool that you can watch something happen and say "oh, that makes sense" but it's a way way different thing to actually be a player that is doing that.

i don't agree, learning proper movement, spacing in accordance to new counters, learning the new counters, (counters to the counters, etcetc.) CC'ng, reaction time, new techskill, not to mention if you play fox or falco thats a whole new level of relearning your character. melee is one of the hardest games to control nowadays, i don't think anyone can deny that. this is not an easy game to relearn.

The question was about the understanding, teaching, tactics. No one's suggesting that an old-school player can just jump right back in after 3 years away and execute well. It takes a lot of matches to incorporate tactics into split-second gameplay. They could do it, but most top old-school players won't come back with that level of commitment.

As to understanding/teaching/tactics, I think it's very easy for even a formerly top 50 player to watch a modern video and understand what's going on, how they're using their characters, where the mistakes are and what tactics are detrimental or leaving exploitable openings.

what about kishprime's?

What about KishPrime's what? Whatever it is, KishPrime's is great!

 

[Strong Badam]

Eat At KishPrime's

 

[EPsilon933]

No one got anything on KishPrime's

 

[KishPrime]

Eat At KishPrime's

5 stars and counting!

 

[Max?]

niko if you care about douchebags on internet forums you should talk to the other max before you talk to me lol. he's got me flat out beat.

<3

Thanks brosef.

 

[Bones0]

I appreciate the compliments and hate equally.

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

Not sure that quote fits the situation at all... I mean, it just doesn't prove your point. I'm sure Hitler had the same mentality. >_>

 

[crush]

But hitler is good at smash.

 

[Plairnkk]

max is so smart

<3

 

[Bones0]

But hitler is good at smash.

You're missing the point.


Just because Hitler was good back in his time doesn't guarantee he would be a good teacher with the current metagame. A lot of new techs are being implemented that he has never dealt with, such as ballistic missiles and nukes.

 

[EPsilon933]

You're missing the point.


Just because Hitler was good back in his time doesn't guarantee he would be a good teacher with the current metagame. A lot of new techs are being implemented that he has never dealt with, such as ballistic missiles and nukes.

Didn't Germany come close to making a nuke? It just wasn't fully developed yet

 

[Bones0]

Didn't Germany come close to making a nuke? It just wasn't fully developed yet

No johns.

 

[blindfreak9]

if as falcon you are playing against a laser-spamming falco, how do u know when to approach, or do u approach right off the bat to avoid lasers?

 

[Jonas]

Every laser fired is an opportunity to hit Falco. If Falco thinks he's safe from attacks just because he jumps in place and spams lasers, try hitting him with a long jump nair.

Not sure that quote fits the situation at all... I mean, it just doesn't prove your point. I'm sure Hitler had the same mentality. >_>

Hitler certainly had enemies.

 

[Battlecow]

Lol mow.

"People dislike me, therefore I'm doing this right."

Come on, bro, even you have to admit that that makes no sense.

You're probably a good teacher though. Seems almost obvious that learning how to approach the game and how to improve would be more important than specific little things that work in today's meta.

 

[john!]

no, he just means that if you have enemies, you aren't a wimpy pushover

 

[bossa nova ♪]

you can't say the game has or hasn't changed if you haven't been grinding from then until now


it's annoying when old school n****z who don't even enter tournaments these days and just see the videos try to come into these threads and claim that **** hasn't changed much since they've been around. i know recording smash and putting it on youtube isn't some new school phenomenon, but i guess acknowledging the limitations of understanding the game through merely watching it might be.

 

[ShroudedOne]

You aren't understanding him. The fundamentals never change, which is what Kish is getting at. The applications of such do.

Honestly, it's not difficult to keep up with the metagame through Youtube/Smashboards, and see what has changed and what hasn't.

 

[KishPrime]

Yeah it really doesn't.

Seriously, HBox basically plays the exact style that I did in 2007. Watching his videos is very fun for me because I always know what he's trying to do and I can see what would have been possible if I'd been able to amp up my speed and execution. Probably one or two times a match, he does a combo that I've not seen before or he surprises me with his reaction time, and it makes perfect sense to me that it would work. However, I did have to ask the forums once what the point of dair was since I'd never found any use for it in any of my practice/experience. There you go, caught up with metagame.

Shrug. Other characters haven't changed that much, either. It's the same moves, the same strings, the same mindgames, except execution has improved by 15%, speed by 12%, and people have come up with some new tricksies using the same tools. Once you've played at a high level, it doesn't take much to keep up with simple game knowledge.

 

[bossa nova ♪]

using the same tools?

so the tools haven't changed?

people were always doing this level of shield pressure?


can i get some specifics? you guys seem to just like to talk out of your ***. all i've heard that's concrete is that in today's metagame things are "faster."

a specific analysis please, if you're so informed...


from watching vids i think it's clear, if anything, old school players were smarter in the sense that there was far less tech skill **** involved, and people just tried to trick one another. this day in age it seems like the increased prevalence of technical players has caused a spike in the defensive aspects of the game (shield mechanics and tricky use of SDI among other things), and i believe we're slowly moving towards a metagame where defense and offense is sophisticated enough that we go back to the old school methods of outsmarting the opponent instead of being overwhelming... or the opposite (being mad campy). Mango is a great example of a person with enough knowledge that he can "old school + new school" people... he knows enough to deal with the pressure as well as dish it out.... he creates opportunities like an old school player and punishes like a new school player.


idk, that's my take. you guys weren't giving this issue much substance (evidence), so i thought i'd try instigating some...

 

[Warhawk]

Honestly, it's not difficult to keep up with the metagame through Youtube/Smashboards, and see what has changed and what hasn't.

But isn't seeing and recognizing what has changed different from actually being able to get into the mindset to consistently see the applications and make use of the applications of what's new into your actual gameplay when it comes up as you're playing?

 

[Prince_Abu]

its not that hard to watch smash videos and know what people are trying to do, whats hard is coming up with that stuff while playin a match

 

[Qzzy]

I don't understand, what's wrong with a more defensive game? I don't understand it as flaw. The pace of the game is slower, so what? And extra one to three minutes for some matches, maybe a few more timeouts than before?

I can see why some people wouldn't like this trend, I get that. It's personal preference. The only sport I ever care to watch is soccer, so I guess personally it makes sense that smash is really the only fighter i care to spectate. I don't really know. Whatever. Also, I like watching characters other than fast fallers and marth, so maybe I'm weird.

Again, what's wrong with more defense that doesn't involve infinite unbeatable stalling, if that even exists? I've read all sort of things about this from good and knowledgeable players saying it is or isn't a real problem, but they're really hasn't been a consensus or any major event showing otherwise.

Wobbles, name search! I'm a fan. Can you learn Sheik or Puff and ledge camp at some major event and win EVERYTHING? If anyone has the BALLS, it's you. It's you.

Just two cents from a fan and spectator.

And also, honestly, which older pro who's been completely isolated from smash thinks he could do well? I think they would have more sense than that.

 

[choknater]

i agree with kishprime. i peaked around 07~08, but i can still go to a tournament and do just as well as i did before. the tools really are the same. the combos and execution, and all the players in general have all just gotten better.

dat 2012 tech is all just really technical stuff.

 

[tarheeljks]

come to an itt and prove it!

 

[KishPrime]

Shrug. I went to a tournament about 2 years after I quit and took Scar, who'd placed in 5th place at a recent national, to the last round, last stock in a pools match. This on literally like 5 hours of practice in the previous 6 months. I also lost to a couple guys that were fairly new and ended up with like a 2-5 record in my pool, advancing through the slightest of tiebreakers (I also "won" a match in losers by lucking into a bye...ended up in like 47th with only 2 wins all day). You don't have the consistency of execution or the ability to keep up like you used to, but the mindgames are fairly standard and you pretty much know what you want to do. You try to play aggressive and use your old tactics, and your fingers just fail you at inopportune times and get you easily killed when you miss a fastfall or l-cancel.

You guys are still confusing execution with understanding the metagame. The original question wasn't about if old pros could come back and win, it was about whether or not an old pro can still follow and understand the game well enough to coach/teach. Shield pressure hasn't fundamentally changed the game, there are just more options available to do it. It's still the same fundamental concept - beat on shield until you get through. People did that in 2007, too, with the tools that we had then. It was just applied in more limited circumstances.

That said, this is a fairly meaningless topic that is well outside the OP scope.

 

[choknater]

haha tarheel i don't think i can bc of school!

 

[bossa nova ♪]

( =①ω①=)