Don't Approach: Melee's Flaw Dissected

[Deleted member]

Of course I contradict myself, aren't we supposed to look at things from different angles? I may say something from one point of view then change to another which might contradict the previous one. It definitely happens a lot, but the point of this is trying to be creative. And yes, I did explain already that I'm bad at explaining stuff which is why I'm posting, I'm training not to be bad at posting. Everything can be a good exercise right? And I mean maybe I'm right or not at times but one thing for sure is that I hate thinking I'm right and then something else comes right through to tell me otherwise, which is why I try to look at things from whatever angle possible... it may seem random but that's who I am. Think of it as thought bubbles that comes to mind.

it's fine to look at things from different views points or to focus on self-improvement. just...try one angle at a time.

 

[Divinokage]

That might be hard to do.. lol.

 

[da K.I.D.]

If youre going to have a stance, be consistent in that stance.

And nothing is wrong with learning that you were wrong about something that you thought before. You just have to change your beliefs to be more accurate. It happens to people all the time.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

Yeah i was gonna say the above aswell. Changing your stance is fine, but when you're not openly telling us that you see a new light, we just assume you still believe what you said previously.

 

[john!]

don't worry too much about it kage... if you truly look at things from multiple points of view, then you're already better than half of the people who argue on the internet.

 

[Scar]

Of course I contradict myself, aren't we supposed to look at things from different angles? I may say something from one point of view then change to another which might contradict the previous one. It definitely happens a lot, but the point of this is trying to be creative. And yes, I did explain already that I'm bad at explaining stuff which is why I'm posting, I'm training not to be bad at posting. Everything can be a good exercise right? And I mean maybe I'm right or not at times but one thing for sure is that I hate thinking I'm right and then something else comes right through to tell me otherwise, which is why I try to look at things from whatever angle possible... it may seem random but that's who I am. Think of it as thought bubbles that comes to mind.

kage's posts are written by manatees? of course... it all makes sense now...

 

[BigD!!!]

if you take one point of view out, the whole thing falls apart and it refuses to work

 

[Divinokage]

kage's posts are written by manatees? of course... it all makes sense now...

LOL that's great. Those thought bubbles man.. they are hard to control. =P

 

[Signia]

wtf?

You can consider many points of view, but you can't hold two contradicting views at once. Don't post if you haven't worked things out yet.

 

[bossa nova ♪]

i guess it's old now, but @ the forward topic: the guy had been going sheik in tourney and ****** *****es with that ***** since the golden days. that **** is nothing new.

 

[Divinokage]

Thank you, Mr.Popo.

Edit: <3

 

[bossa nova ♪]

no problem nikkuh



and god bless all of you little nikkuhs

 

[choknater]

hm, now that i think of it

i do remember a player that, at the end of his career, started implementing hax's mindset

that player is pink shinobi

and we all know what happened to him

he started being AMAZING, WINNING, and timed out rockcrock with 3 stocks left.

 

[ShroudedOne]

To be fair, Pink Shinobi was amazing before that, I believe. But you do have a point.

 

[crush]

WINNING

chickn uggets

 

[Warhawk]

To be fair, Pink Shinobi was amazing before that, I believe. But you do have a point.

Yea pretty sure he beat Silent Specter without camping.

 

[SSBMLahti]

Kage got 5th at ROM4 with Ganon.

That is all.

Spoiler

Canada *****.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Revival of Kage?

thats happened at like 2 of the 4 roms right?

 

[EPsilon933]

Rom1: 5th
Rom2: 4th
Rom3: idk
Rom5: 5th

iirc

 

[Divinokage]

Rom1: 5th
Rom2: 4th
Rom3: idk
Rom5: 5th

iirc

RoM 1: 5th (Lost to Shiz and PC)
RoM 2: 3rd (Lost to Hbox and PP)
RoM 3: 13th (Lost to Hbox and Mango)
RoM 4: 5th (Lost to Mango and M2k)

It's tough.. lol.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Welp, i know who Im puttin my money on for the next one.

 

[Warhawk]

5th time's the charm though right Kage?

 

[Varist]

regarding the argument over forward's shiek and falco and all that BS, being able to counter-pick characters is an element of skill. Someone who has mastered the entire cast and manipulates his choice to fit his opponent's character choice is definitely a better player than someone who's completely dedicated himself to only one character, if the former is taking the win.

Just wanted to give my $.02 without re-opening the debate, because no one can convince me otherwise so it'd be pointless to argue. props to KID for being smart.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

regarding the argument over forward's shiek and falco and all that BS, being able to counter-pick characters is an element of skill. Someone who has mastered the entire cast and manipulates his choice to fit his opponent's character choice is definitely a better player than someone who's completely dedicated himself to only one character, if the former is taking the win.

Just wanted to give my $.02 without re-opening the debate, because no one can convince me otherwise so it'd be pointless to argue. props to KID for being smart.

no..props to you aswell for not being able to read the actual arguement that was at hand (as da kid did, no offense to him though). if you read the whole thing, you'd see that countless times, people addressed that he made the smart choice IN TOURNAMENT PLAY. As in yes to win that set, he had the better tournament tools and ability to win.

that wasn't the argument at all, no one denied that point. very moot. the point was that he wasn't learning as a player from that set at all, because he decided to push away his problem, rather than addressing it and learning why he was losing. in other words i feel he chose the easy-out, which is fine. I was just addressing that.

he also hasn't "mastered" falco if he felt the need to switch after clearly losing the first few games.

this argument doesn't need to spark up again, it wasn't that great. but i just wanted to address to you the same thing i have liek 124151251 times in this thread already, people have made that almost exact same statement like 20 times in here, as if anyone was denying your point..

 

[Warhawk]

regarding the argument over forward's shiek and falco and all that BS, being able to counter-pick characters is an element of skill. Someone who has mastered the entire cast and manipulates his choice to fit his opponent's character choice is definitely a better player than someone who's completely dedicated himself to only one character, if the former is taking the win.

Just wanted to give my $.02 without re-opening the debate, because no one can convince me otherwise so it'd be pointless to argue. props to KID for being smart.

You clearly didn't read the whole argument as most of us except for probably one or two people on both sides agreed that was true. The confusion was that some people thought (including me, I'm ashamed to admit) that Forward pulled Sheik without having Sheik as a secondary to abuse the matchup difference between Marth and Sheik to avoid having to get better and avoid the issue his Falco has with Marth. Clearly he secondaries Sheik, so now so its a moot point.

 

[Varist]

i read the whole thing. being a better player means you at some point learned to be a better player. using shiek was him learning, becoming a better player. both of you are bad at semantics.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

who the hell said he wasn't the better player?

i love hearing you **** talk us while pointing out things that have no value in this discussion

he obviously learned to play shiek at some point, i don't see how him destroying tai with shiek taught him anything he didn't already know.

lemme just clarify the entire discussion for you;

I said that forward chose the easy-out win because he switched his characters after consistently losing. I say this because he chose to avoid his problems and subsitute them out with an answer he's already familiar with. Yes in tournament, he made the right choice, easy-out or not. But in the long run, as a player, he didn't learn from his mistakes nor did it help him advance as a player whatsoever. Sure he understood that his falco was losing, and that he should switch. which is the right TOURNY CHOICE, but not the right choice in the long run by understanding the game better and understanding your flaws better. Pushing your flaws away and bringing out an answer he already knows is not learning the game. it's learning how to win tournament. completely different.

 

[Varist]

who the hell said he wasn't the better player?

i love hearing you **** talk us while pointing out things that have no value in this discussion

he obviously learned to play shiek at some point, i don't see how him destroying tai with shiek taught him anything he didn't already know.

experience doesn't make people better players? oh ok. i concede the argument to you mister steezy.

 

[Warhawk]

i read the whole thing. being a better player means you at some point learned to be a better player. using shiek was him learning, becoming a better player. both of you are bad at semantics.

I'm not bad at semantics, abusing a matchup advantage is not becoming better. If it won't work at a top level its teaching you bad habits (making you worse) that are not making you better and against a top caliber opponent switching to abuse a matchup won't help you. Forward didn't do that though clearly so why are you even arguing this beyond to irritate a few more people?

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

i don't even get the point your making. your saying him playing against tai's marth with shiek was experience? sure he got 3 more matches worth of experience, over learning your flaws and understanding the game better. i don't count someone destroying another player as experience, when youre already clearly high level and know how to move around with your character.


HAY HAXXXX, DONTCHA LOVE OUR DISCUSSION THAT ISN'T ABOUT DEFENSE?

 

[Varist]

Subbing in characters doesn't help you at top level?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU7G-A4D4nA

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

hey how about you address my post instead? cause that wasn't my point or idea at all.

 

[Varist]

Destroying another player is totally experience. If that player is Ness and you're Falco, even if you destroy him, you just got Ness experience. Maybe not a level up, but totally got you that XP.

Shiek v Marth in tournament is more matchup XP. how can you deny this is experience?


again, i'm not going to change my mind. just drop the arg. you're talking to a wall here.

 

[Warhawk]

hey how about you address my post instead? cause that wasn't my point or idea at all.

He can't, he just puts words in our mouths and argues things that we didn't even necessarily say.

 

[Divinokage]

Destroying another player is totally experience. If that player is Ness and you're Falco, even if you destroy him, you just got Ness experience. Maybe not a level up, but totally got you that XP.

Shiek v Marth in tournament is more matchup XP. how can you deny this is experience?


again, i'm not going to change my mind. just drop the arg. you're talking to a wall here.

Lol nice so you would deliberately close your mind to a possibility that might help you grow as a player? That's not very good imo.

 

[Varist]

He can't, he just puts words in our mouths and argues things that we didn't even necessarily say.

you've said all the things i've said you've said. say something i've said that you've said that you haven't said.

@kage
please tell me how I would grow as a player by listening to these clowns. i might as well be closing my mind to drugs tbh, there's only harm here. consider that closing your mind isn't always a bad thing, kage.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

you're taking 'experience' far too literal. if i sit in my room and play a bot i am getting experience. why would i count that? im saying that the amount of experience he's getting from learning from his mistakes heavily outweighs him destroying someone in a matchup he already knows.

im not really arguing, youve brought less to the table than any other person discussing this has.

also it seems quite childish to state your opinion in the argument and then follow it up with AND NO IM NOT CHANGING MY MIND SO DONT BOTHER, like why even tell us your point then?

ATTENTION ALL, VARIST HAS STATED HIS POINT

 

[Varist]

i told you my point to offer support in numbers to the side i agreed with. it's the same thing you and warhawk are doing. 2 on 1s aren't fair, the other guys needed rep.
and don't get so mad you ape.

 

[Divinokage]

you're taking 'experience' far too literal. if i sit in my room and play a bot i am getting experience. why would i count that? im saying that the amount of experience he's getting from learning from his mistakes heavily outweighs him destroying someone in a matchup he already knows.

im not really arguing, youve brought less to the table than any other person discussing this has.

also it seems quite childish to state your opinion in the argument and then follow it up with AND NO IM NOT CHANGING MY MIND SO DONT BOTHER, like why even tell us your point then?

ATTENTION ALL, VARIST HAS STATED HIS POINT

Ok but in tournament it's not the time to risk things like that, would you stay Falco with the risk of getting owned the 3rd game? He already lost 2 games in a row and can very well use that to think about for a later time. The level ups usually happen on downtime, it's when you can reflect about yourself and see what you can do better next time, you can use ANYTHING to grow. Even a RL lesson outside of smash can be used inside smash.

 

[Warhawk]

you've said all the things i've said you've said. say something i've said that you've said that you haven't said.

@kage
please tell me how I would grow as a player by listening to these clowns. i might as well be closing my mind to drugs tbh, there's only harm here. consider that closing your mind isn't always a bad thing, kage.

We've been saying that if you're using character abusing strategies that work at a mid(or mid to high)-level of play you are teaching yourself a bad habit that won't work at a high level. If you are a Marth player hypothetically and you get ***** by every Sheik, even those worse than you and so you just use Fox and laser camp out those Sheik's have you become better? No, you've found out how to beat people worse than you. A top Sheik would destroy your campy Fox. You've taught yourself a bad habit that would actually impair your ability to increase your level of play because you can't win against the better Sheiks with what you used to beat those worse than you and on top of that you didn't better your Marth when you could have just done that instead to rid yourself of this problem. If you learn to play Fox then that's alright, you have an extra tool up your sleave and knowing the matchup with Fox works at a higher level, abusing it does not. Again though, it has found to be a moot point as Forward does in fact secondary Sheik.


Also, just because we agree doesn't mean we are teaming up on you. I actually slightly disagree with his opinion on the matter but on the part of it you are arguing we agree and are expressing our opinions on that matter. Nothing wrong with that.