Don't Approach: Melee's Flaw Dissected

[trahhSTEEZY]

i'm only posting with some tension, since from the beginning you insulted everyone disagreeing with you. ("da kid being smart") while not even addressing what we were actually arguing. your coming off so insulting. oh and then you edited in that were clowns, so there's that.

why would 'support in numbers' matter? are we tallying down whos side everyone is on? and i don't see how i can prevent what warhawk is doing. he simply wants to address his opinion as i do, we aren't..working together or anything, what can i do?



andddd kage, im completely aware of all of that, but as i've said that isnt my point at all, if you don't feel like risking it then you don't simple as that. that doesn't make his choice any less of an "easy out"


varist i would love to money match you, since i'm a clown in terms of melee and all

 

[Varist]

Ok but in tournament it's not the time to risk things like that, would you stay Falco with the risk of getting owned the 3rd game? He already lost 2 games in a row and can very well use that to think about for a later time. The level ups usually happen on downtime, it's when you can reflect about yourself and see what you can do better next time, you can use ANYTHING to grow. Even a RL lesson outside of smash can be used inside smash.

i agree. tournaments are for the exp, downtime for the level-ups. forward isn't DQd from learning just because he didn't do the leveling-up within the tourney.

warhawkstuff

i consider tai and forward high-level, if not top-level players to some degree. It's not like the next tier of good players instantly picked up tons of Shiek knowledge.

and labeling something a "secondary" or not a "secondary" doesn't really change anything imo. you're setting arbitrary frequency-of-play thresholds.

steezy stuff

i wasn't insulting anyone in the beginning, and i edited in the kage response, not necessarily the clowns part, i thought you guys were being clowns on page 56 lol.

 

[Divinokage]

I just dont like the term "easy-out" It has a negative connotation with it, but oh well. lol.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

lol @ thinking tai and forward are top level

im glad your willing to state that you agree with kage, but you cant address the counter-argument.

never seen such childish posts from someone that isn't crush

i wasn't insulting anyone in the beginning

props to KID for being smart.

your very first post, implying that anyone that iisn't agreeing with that topic isn't smart.

 

[Varist]

i predate crush by a day, and we're both orange, glad you made the parallel. but i'm making a lot of sense, present your counter-argument so i can make some more sense. i forget which arguments you're trying to uphold when you spray disagreements.

edit for your edit: compliments to one person are not insults to every other person rofl. telling someone they're beautiful means everyone else in the world is ugly?

this is why i think you're a clown

 

[Warhawk]

i consider tai and forward high-level, if not top-level players to some degree. It's not like the next tier of good players instantly picked up tons of Shiek knowledge.

and labeling something a "secondary" or not a "secondary" doesn't really change anything imo. you're setting arbitrary frequency-of-play thresholds.

Again, again, again this is why I'm saying it is now a moot point. I didn't realize that Forward had a Sheik at first or that the Marth was TAI. The fact that it is make our original arguments non-applicable, but you decided to bring them back up.

And the character being a secondary very much so matters, because it means that Forward didn't just pull Sheik to abuse the matchup advantage, he knows the matchup from previous experience.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

i predate crush by a day, and we're both orange, glad you made the parallel. but i'm making a lot of sense, present your counter-argument so i can make some more sense. i forget which arguments you're trying to uphold when you spray disagreements.

i clearly explained how your version of "experience" is ridiculously minimal compared to what he would gain if he would've stuck with falco in this scenario. then you just brushed it off and said you are a wall.


also learning in friendlies =/= tournament

 

[Varist]

people can only gain real experience if they're using falco? that's what i'm getting. flesh your arguments out a little better, and organize them in a claim-warrant-impact style.

when your arguments are silly, there's no way you can get me to agree with you (which is what you're trying to do!) so make them not-so-dumb.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

edit for your edit: compliments to one person are not insults to every other person rofl. telling someone they're beautiful means everyone else in the world is ugly?

that is a terrible example, maybe if you were in a room with 5 other people and you told that one person they were beautiful, then yes that would imply your calling the others not beautiful.

when you say that da kid is smart, what else could you possibly be implying? that we all discussing this are also smart, but your just giving da kid credit? that makes alot of sense. it's pretty common sense what you were getting at without having to directly say it.

your arguments have been far more silly. Why would i say that it's falco giving him experience? I clearly added "in this scenario" for a reason. As in, staying his INITIAL CHARACTER , is far more beneficial to experience than using a character/matchup hes clearly familiar with and winning 3 games in a row. how can you not see this?

i've made each posts incredibly clear in my opinion, and from previous discussion, nothing has changed. i don't see how your getting so lost.



and if you predate crush by a day (in terms of age) then this all makes loads more sense.

 

[Divinokage]

To me it seems a little contradictory because you can't play to win and play to learn at the same time. You can learn stuff after the match but during the match it's more like you are trying to do everything to kill the opponent. I mean for me, I rarely remember my tournament matches hell I don't even remember anything from my RoM 4 sets because it requires so much focus to play really well with what you learned before. I mean there's always plenty of time for friendlies to gain more experience while doing the matchup that gave you trouble inside the tournament.

 

[Varist]

that is a terrible example, maybe if you were in a room with 5 other people and you told that one person they were beautiful, then yes that would imply your calling the others not beautiful.

so what's enough before it stops being insulting? 10 people? 25? 26? arbitrary thresholds are arbitrary.

when you say that da kid is smart, what else could you possibly be implying? that we all discussing this are also smart, but your just giving da kid credit? that makes alot of sense. it's pretty common sense what you were getting at without having to directly say it.

i was implying that he presented his side in an intelligent way obviously. you're such a defensive person that you naturally assume any compliment to another is an insult to you rofl. that's bad, let other people have their props without blowing up.

your arguments have been far more silly. Why would i say that it's falco giving him experience? I clearly added "in this scenario" for a reason. As in, staying his INITIAL CHARACTER , is far more beneficial to experience than using a character/matchup hes clearly familiar with and winning 3 games in a row. how can you not see this?

what if his initial character was kirby? he chose kirby first match, lost, counterpicked falco? he should've stayed kirby because now he's not "learning" with falco? flesh out your side and let it be objective and universal, not circumstantial.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

To me it seems a little contradictory because you can't play to win and play to learn at the same time. You can learn stuff after the match but during the match it's more like you are trying to do everything to kill the opponent. I mean for me, I rarely remember my tournament matches hell I don't even remember anything from my RoM 4 sets because it requires so much focus to play really well with what you learned before. I mean there's always plenty of time for friendlies to gain more experience while doing the matchup that gave you trouble inside the tournament.

see this is discussion i can work with, this is far more beneficial than a single thing varist has said.

i guess my idea that it was an easy-out spawned from the fact that it was an AZ local tournament. Forward was playing to win a local and get money, not venture further as a player. This AZ local in particular is not a tournament to prove yourself at the level he is at in my opinion. If this was at a national, then I would completely agree that he shouldn't be learning here. But given the circumstances of the tournament and the two people who we're playing, I definitely saw it as an easy out.

i'm not even gonna bother addressing the da kid stuff

what if his initial character was kirby? he chose kirby first match, lost, counterpicked falco? he should've stayed kirby because now he's not "learning" with falco? flesh out your side and let it be objective and universal, not circumstantial.

Your using such awful examples as points, your being far more circumstantial about it then I am. quit addressing individual characters.

It's about switching from your initial character whom your less familiar in the matchup to a character you are more familair with in the matchup.

you are learning less switching the 2nd character you've chosen, than you would be by understanding why your first character is losing and addressing that problem.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i dont understand how trahh comes up with this weird notion that people who switch characters are somehow lesser players.

the better player is the one who comes up on the winner screen at the end of the game. to try and analyse it any further than that is just incorrect.

also trahh, your talking about forward, whos been playing this game since like... 03 or something, I think he knows all his matchups. you act like him switching off of falco means he was only trying to win money...

whos to say hes not practicing his intelligent and skillful (its definitely a big part of the game) counterpicking skills for a national?

 

[Warhawk]

see this is discussion i can work with, this is far more beneficial than a single thing varist has said.

i guess my idea that it was an easy-out spawned from the fact that it was an AZ local tournament. Forward was playing to win a local and get money, not venture further as a player. This AZ local in particular is not a tournament to prove yourself at the level he is at in my opinion. If this was at a national, then I would completely agree that he shouldn't be learning here. But given the circumstances of the tournament and the two people who we're playing, I definitely saw it as an easy out.

See here I disagree, cuz now isn't he expanding his Sheik knowledge? He doesn't need the Falco side of the matchup if he always goes Sheik. Yes, it would make his Falco better, but he's also bettering his Sheik, since Sheik is one of his other characters. Its like M2K, he has 3 characters and uses them all for different matchups and situations. He mains Sheik, but if Puff comes up he's playing Fox because he has more knowledge and is more comfortable with Fox in that situation. He could get better at it with Sheik, but feels getting better with Fox is more important since he's always going to go Fox in that situation anyways. He's not abusing a matchup he can't get over with another character, he is actually learned in the matchup and that is in fact his strategy.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

i dont understand how trahh comes up with this weird notion that people who switch characters are somehow lesser players.

where are you getting the weird notion that i have said this or think this? pleasseeeeee quote me

both of you think that this is about who the better player is. i am dying to know where am i implying this.


clearly he doesn't know the matchup enough if hes losing with falco against someone whos played probably half or less of what he has.

See here I disagree, cuz now isn't he expanding his Sheik knowledge? He doesn't need the Falco side of the matchup if he always goes Sheik. Yes, it would make his Falco better, but he's also bettering his Sheik, since Sheik is one of his other characters. Its like M2K, he has 3 characters and uses them all for different matchups and situations. He mains Sheik, but if Puff comes up he's playing Fox because he has more knowledge and is more comfortable with Fox in that situation. He could get better at it with Sheik, but feels getting better with Fox is more important since he's always going to go Fox in that situation anyways. He's not abusing a matchup he can't get over with another character, he is actually learned in the matchup and that is in fact his strategy.

my point is that he's expanding less playing shiek vs. TAI's marth than he would by staying as his initial character and understanding why he lost. yes he is learning by switching to shiek but the difference of learning is very big.

whos to say hes not practicing his intelligent and skillful (its definitely a big part of the game) counterpicking skills for a national?

da KID i guarantee you he is already aware that his shiek is better vs marth than his falco. he probably just wanted to try it anyway, see if he could do it, couldn't, wanted to win the tournament (i've been there before, i get it.), and switched.

 

[crush]

Varist you change your avatar to crush logo me love you long time.

Also wtf trahh how are my posts childish?

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

cage cage cage cage cage cage cage

 

[crush]

cage cage cage cage cage cage cage

What a disrespectful, immature, childish post. What are we, 16?

Fellow chaps of good breeding and social stature, what shall we discuss next?

Also fyi I apologized to cage at rom, and he admitted that it was all his fault.

 

[Divinokage]

How about.. how campers get super salty when they get out-camped? I saw Jman get frustrated when he lost to M2k saying that he doesn't like getting camped but I thought that was a little hypocritical since we all know Jman is also a pretty defensive player. I just think he didn't capitalize in the way he should, I mean M2k isn't invincible, he's super good but I mean if he camps the ledge then you have to wait at a safe distance until you can start to fight again. I don't see why someone would get frustrated by that, camping the ledge does nothing but stall for time which is fine by me. I mean I'd think Fox should be fast enough to punish ledge stalling, I mean even PP with Falco punished M2k for that doing that plenty of times..

Crush, a true warrior must look at his faults for what they are and not convince himself of imaginary stuff.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

crush i like you don't get me wrong babeh

kage all i can think of when you say that is jman vs amsah, god i hate that set

 

[Warhawk]

I think that set is hilarious.

 

[da K.I.D.]

where are you getting the weird notion that i have said this or think this? pleasseeeeee quote me

both of you think that this is about who the better player is. i am dying to know where am i implying this.

you have definitely implied this on mulitiple occasions but the topic has been going on for so long I dont feel like going back and looking for it.

clearly he doesn't know the matchup enough if hes losing with falco against someone whos played probably half or less of what he has.

OR
He knows the matchup well enough to know he shouldnt put himself in a losing situation needlessly. And did it for the first 2 games just for the hell of it.

my point is that he's expanding less playing shiek vs. TAI's marth than he would by staying as his initial character and understanding why he lost. yes he is learning by switching to shiek but the difference of learning is very big.

My point is that hes expanding more by learning to understand exactly what adaptations you may have to make in order to get the W. Character is a form of adaptation and the fact that he won the next 3 games shows that he figured out exactly why he lost and applied that knowledge in a more favorable situation. Which is what the best players do. Expanding, gaining and applying knowledge learned, and adapting. Use all the tools at your disposal because the W is the only thing that matters

da KID i guarantee you he is already aware that his shiek is better vs marth than his falco. he probably just wanted to try it anyway, see if he could do it, couldn't, wanted to win the tournament (i've been there before, i get it.), and switched.

Yes but that has nothing to do with the expanding your knowledge and understanding why you lost motif that you seem to be running with.

Also, Id like to let you know that even though your logic annoys me, I still like you more than most people for the simple fact that you spelled my tag correctly, with KID in all caps.

How about.. how campers get super salty when they get out-camped?

This.

This is delicious. One of the guys ive been practicing with refuses to acknowledge that he is a campy player. And then I camped him back and played a 12 minute puff vs peach match with him. He was furious.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

you have definitely implied this on mulitiple occasions but the topic has been going on for so long I dont feel like going back and looking for it.

but, if you brought it up agaaain, there must be some instance recently? I only ask because i'm pretty confused, i've never once stated that forward was a lesser player than TAI or anybody, i've verrrry consistently stated that my point was that he was not growing as a player by switching. that is far different from being a "lesser player"..

OR
He knows the matchup well enough to know he shouldnt put himself in a losing situation needlessly. And did it for the first 2 games just for the hell of it.

what makes you think he is taking this serious enough to learn about switching your characters if he's doing things just for the hell of it?

My point is that hes expanding more by learning to understand exactly what adaptations you may have to make in order to get the W. Character is a form of adaptation and the fact that he won the next 3 games shows that he figured out exactly why he lost and applied that knowledge in a more favorable situation. Which is what the best players do. Expanding, gaining and applying knowledge learned, and adapting. Use all the tools at your disposal because the W is the only thing that matters

But you see, while he is adapting to understanding what character to use, he's heavily failing in adapting to understanding why his falco is losing, THIS is what the actual best players do, ask any top level player which is more beneficial; understanding why the character your using at the time is losing, or understanding which character to use (assuming your good with all of them) after losing.

"and the fact that he won the next 3 games shows that he figured out exactly why he lost and applied that knowledge in a more favorable situation."

He didn't figure out why he lost at all, he figured out that he WAS losing, and found a solution to that. that is far different than understand why your losing.

and if you mean he applied the faults in the falco matchup to the shiek, then i disagree they are completely different matchups, i don't see how he could've applied anything from it and i really don't think he did. I think he knows the shiek marth matchup better, plus it's easier.


also just thought i'd add the top comment from tai vs. forward:
"I know the marth match up very well, doesn't it show?" -forward
quite obviously sarcastic. to me that's him saying he doesn't know it that well, and shiek can handle that situation.

 

[crush]

Crush, a true warrior must look at his faults for what they are and not convince himself of imaginary stuff.

lol dude i was joking you didnt say it was your fault irl. 3 word warrior vision much?

let the flame war begin (again)!

 

[Divinokage]

lol dude i was joking you didnt say it was your fault irl. 3 word warrior vision much?

let the flame war begin (again)!

Lol, I'm just playing along. =)

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

damn crush get trolled within a troll

T R O L L C E P T I O N

 

[crush]

im not actually a troll. im a very serious person and i do not believe in sarcasm. you'll have to see me in real life to believe it.

also im not bi-polar, im bi-winning

 

[Anand]

also just thought i'd add the top comment from tai vs. forward:
"I know the marth match up very well, doesn't it show?" -forward
quite obviously sarcastic. to me that's him saying he doesn't know it that well, and shiek can handle that situation.

I thought that was a reply to an earlier comment "learn the matchup" that (I think) was directed at Tai (saying to learn the Sheik matchup as Marth so people can't beat him with Sheik secondaries), so Forward was just replying to it as a joke.

 

[Stevo]

I litterally did not know what thread I was in without checking.


I agree the game leans towards defensiev play over aggressive. In rock paper scissors, you would basically lose every time if you act first. Although the comparison does not fully apply, if you do something, that leads to the opponent being able to choose what to counter with. You have to take into consideration a lot such as timing and limiting options etc etc, but if you do a move that allows for the enemy to counter it, chances are they will (or will at least try to).


I do want to mention, though, that I think aggressive play can work in melee. There is a reason people think momentum is important. Even if technically a fox could shine out of shield against an attack, doesn't mean they will or will be able to or will think to do it at that moment. In addition to this, perhaps getting shined out of shield is not that bad for you, and the pros of getting your attack to work outweigh the cons of getting shined out of shield. Perhaps you could even anticipate the shine out of shield by limiting their options to only that. etc. etc.

 

[Tee ay eye]

We've been saying that if you're using character abusing strategies that work at a mid(or mid to high)-level of play you are teaching yourself a bad habit that won't work at a high level. If you are a Marth player hypothetically and you get ***** by every Sheik, even those worse than you and so you just use Fox and laser camp out those Sheik's have you become better? No, you've found out how to beat people worse than you. A top Sheik would destroy your campy Fox. You've taught yourself a bad habit that would actually impair your ability to increase your level of play because you can't win against the better Sheiks with what you used to beat those worse than you and on top of that you didn't better your Marth when you could have just done that instead to rid yourself of this problem. If you learn to play Fox then that's alright, you have an extra tool up your sleave and knowing the matchup with Fox works at a higher level, abusing it does not. Again though, it has found to be a moot point as Forward does in fact secondary Sheik.

i agree with this guy

pay attention to the bolded and italicized part

we are not (or at least, i am not) saying that counterpicking is illegitimate. it's a completely legitimate strategy when done well, and ESPECIALLY when your main can't handle a certain matchup. we're not blasting people for counterpicking, jesus christ.

what we ARE saying is that counterpicking with a character you don't normally use at all should be an unreliable strategy because melee is a deep enough game that you shouldn't be able to beat someone evenly matched (or closely matched) with you by using a character that you're mediocre at (forward using sheik against me is legit because he's been an amazing sheik for longer than i've been playing melee)

also, trahsteezy, i don't think forward was being sarcastic with that comment. he really is good at the sheik vs marth matchup. his sheik has done so well vs mew2king's marth and taj's marth in 2007 (in their primes)

 

[Warhawk]

Thank you lol that's what I was trying to say but kept coming across wrong and confusing people as to what I was trying to say. Much better job explaining that than me lol. Didn't help my case that in my initial argument I didn't realize Forward has a Sheik (ashamed I forgot this as a fan of his) or that you were the Marth he was playing.

 

[forward]

Hi guys, just thought I'd share a couple thoughts with you all. Most of what I was thinking has been said already though.

My #1 priority was to beat Tai. Like he said we agreed to split the $ but it was personal for me and I had to get salty revenge for losing to him at the last tourney.

My Falco was losing because of my tech skill more than anything, IMO. My sheik came close to losing in the first couple of matches, too, IMO also because of tech skill. I don't practice so there's no reason my tech skill should be great. As the matches progressed though it came back and I did better. I used to be able to break out of grabs after one pummel up to ~30% (I could even break out before the first pummel up to ~10% on a good day) and if you watch the matches you'll see I didn't escape grabs till the later matches.

Back in 07, beating marth with spacies was near impossible thanks to M2K. The game evolved and it became possible but I trained my sheik a lot for that match up and I considered myself one of the best sheik vs marth players in the world.

As for Falco, I knew the match up but consistency and Falco don't really go hand in hand. I learned other characters and have always been the kind of player who was good with multiple characters (as in tourney viable). Falco, Fox, Sheik, Marth, Falcon, Peach, I've used them all in high level tourneys to pull out wins whenever I thought it was the right choice. Some people are character loyalists and that's cool, the great thing about melee is that you can play it almost any way you want and be successful. Character loyalists are awesome because they pull out the sickest and most intricate spacing and moves with their characters but I respect the hell out of people who run multiple characters in tourney because their knowledge of the game is undeniable. Like Tai said the game is deep enough where characters alone won't get you wins, you still have to learn the match up.

Cheers, smashers *raises tequila*

/old man posts

 

[TheBOSS]

Sooo i'm not going to sift through 60 some-odd pages but having read the first post I will say this...

I consider myself an aggressive player for sure. I approach often and strive to get those beastly combos as often as possible because that's what I LOVE about melee (as most of us do). It's what's fun to me, but that being said...I feel aggression works in doubles (for the most part) but in singles...not so much. I spent the past 3 months up in NorCal where Shroomed and I would play a few times a week. Hax's point couldn't be more understood as to when I would play with Shroomed. Unless he was messing around with fox or falco, Shroomed simply would not approach...at all. If he had a clear 2 stock lead, then maybe, but other wise, nope. And like Hax said, that defensive play style DOMINATES aggressive/offensive tactics simply because it takes only one slight mistake (missed L-cancel, slightly off spacing, etc.) and then ur grabbed and/or put in a terrible situation which with today's level of play, tends to lead to a lost stock or at least 40-60% damage. DaJuan's (Shroomed) sheik and doc are a nightmare to face, i've never been CC'd d-smashed and sheild grabbed more in my life. And where our "skill" at the game is comparatively very close, Shroomed(s) overall decision making/defensive game won him the majority of our matches. 90% of the time I played fox/falcon but when I would switch to jiggs, where I could slow down the pace of the match to my liking and would sync with his defensive style, our matches would be to the last stock close to every time. BUT, the flaw in that (for me personally..which is also why I don't really play jiggs anymore) is because I just don't have fun. I CAN stay back and space my back air's like a champ all day long but that's just not M.E.L.E.E. to me. Maybe it's because I'm "old school" but that's just me. At any rate, I don't want my post to sound like I'm bagging on DaJuan's play style (because I think and know he is an amazing player and have mad respect and love for that homie) but I bring it up as an example to corroborate with what Hax had to say in his first post.

I've been a part of this community since the MLG days and have truly experienced this games insane progression in every way. I've tried to quit Melee countless times and I just cant do it lol. The game (like the players now) are just TOO good. Melee is so unique to competative gaming in all aspects; from the community to the combos and I absolutely love it. So dispite Melee's flaws (which I DO agree with Hax about), I'll follow this game till it dies or I do.

 

[MasterShake]

I wish I could play to win. I agree with you, TheBoss, I just can't camp all day, if I'm not trying to be aggressive or pull off a sick combo (which can be accomplished through defensive play) I'm not having fun. And I've made that my #1 priority instead of winning. So it goes. I may never be a good player but I'll always have fun.

 

[finalcloud13]

IMO peoples' physical ability is a much tighter bottleneck - including but not limited to - reaction time, timing, and motor skills. So I think that even if between offensive and defensive playstyles one is slightly more advantageous, it will never be made very apparent due to human physical limitations.

 

[Spyro]

damn crush get trolled within a troll

T R O L L C E P T I O N

Smash Boards

The land of trolls.

 

[Drodeka]

Here in early 2014, ProjectMelee has increased my hope of this never happening.

 

[Xyzz]

Here in early 2014, my hope of never seeing this thread again has been crushed.

 

[SAUS]

Is this the first post about this kind of stuff? It's definitely interesting stuff, but I think this is more common knowledge now. Shield pressure with spacies and peach is not guaranteed and it is not autopilot, and shield pressure with other characters is not futile. On top of that, cornering your opponent has proven to be a huge aspect of the game. While it doesn't mean you can go all nuts on them cause they're at the edge, you clearly have an advantage. I actually like where the game is at currently. Regardless, this is a pretty old post, so if it is one of the first insights into this kind of idea, it is really good.

You can't be super aggressive in melee in the sense that you can just jump all over your opponent attacking and not get punished. Honestly, it would be extremely stupid if you could. While approaching is bad, there are ways to force your opponent to "approach", and that is done by cornering them. Get superior position and then crush them. That's why I love how melee has evolved. It's so interesting.

I always try to tell my friends that approaching is bad, but I can't seem to explain it right. It kind of makes me sad when someone asks "what are my approaches?", or says "Falco's approaches are XYZ and Marth's approaches are ABC". Really, you should not look at the game like that. While it may seem bad to say that, I think it is good. Offense is extremely complicated, but it is still powerful. You just have to know how to do it, and then when you do it, it is amazingly beautiful.

 

[gravy]

If I could murder this thread, I would.