Don't Approach: Melee's Flaw Dissected

[Strong Badam]

you are better against jigglypuff than 99% of the community jason

 

[Mew2King]

i mean comparatively. Like, i **** ganons, falcons, foxes, marios, Marths, peachs (except armada), but i always lose to falcos and jiggs for like 6 years now

 

[Wake]

Marios? That's an odd one...

 

[KirbyKaze]

I disagree with "M2K is better than 99% of the community vs Puff".

I also think he's really, really good against Sheik (mostly in the ditto). Sheik dittos against M2K are really hard.

 

[Lovage]

LMFAO im so happy m2k likes windowlicker

what a dope avatar

 

[Strong Badam]

I disagree with "M2K is better than 99% of the community vs Puff".

The number itself may not be accurate but I think it's true. Outside of obvious Armada, PP, Mango, and possibly Jman/Col Bol/Fly Amanita, who is better?

 

[ShroudedOne]

Does Armada count if he can't beat Hbox with Peach, though?

 

[ArcNatural]

you are better against jigglypuff than 99% of the community jason

The problem is the more accurate statement that your saying is "you are better with Fox against Mango's Jigglypuff and Hungrybox's Jigglypuff than 99% of the community Jason".

Which may or may not be true. M2k's history shows that he has lost to multiple jiggs across his history when he played fox. Jiggs that other foxes handled fine. Which is what M2k bases his problems with jiggs on.

So while M2k may do better against the best jigglypuffs, he also has trouble with other top jiggs that other foxes don't IMO. So it's a hard to quantify statement.

 

[SSBMLahti]

I once beat a puff using the kratos character

 

[Armada]

ShroudedOne: I guess against Puff does not mean I have to play Peach =)

 

[ShroudedOne]

ShroudedOne: I guess against Puff does not mean I have to play Peach =)

I meant no disrespect. I just thought that "with mains" was a qualifier.

But you should totally learn the matchup. It'd be cool to see that happen, from a Peach perspective, anyways. =)

 

[Wake]

I would like to see that also... but Hbox is a beast against Peach oolmonke

 

[DJMirror]

this is just plain nonsense in some ways but this is a good read tho

 

[Armada]

No disrespect taken.

Yeah maybe I should =)

 

[Bones0]

Armada's English isn't quite perfect. What I think he's trying to say is:

"Young Link for life! Even Hbox's secondaries won't be able to handle my Cambodian camping."

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

What about

 

[flaw]

please don't dissect me

 

[Armada]

Armada's English isn't quite perfect. What I think he's trying to say is:

"Young Link for life! Even Hbox's secondaries won't be able to handle my Cambodian camping."

Where is the like button? =)

 

[Avalancer]

But what if you don't approach, and the other player decides to spam projectiles? (more important, needles )

 

[Thimo]

Then, if u dont have missiles yourself, you will eventually feel forced to approach since otherwise you will lose the match by %.

 

[ArcNatural]

But what if you don't approach, and the other player decides to spam projectiles? (more important, needles )

Watch Armada vs Hungrybox at Genesis 2 to get the full effect of what happens when one person (Armada) throws projectiles and the other player (Hungrybox) doesn't want to approach.

You can not get a better example.

 

[S l o X]

But what if you don't approach, and the other player decides to spam projectiles? (more important, needles )

Falco / Foxs lasers you mean? Needles can't even compete for top two projectiles.

People grow impatient, if they don't then you're ****ed.

 

[adumbrodeus]

that IS why. I broke the character, I invented tactics that got him banned (when he shouldn't be; a democracy is a terrible system), and I also can 2 or 3 stock EVERY other top MK out there except for ally in dittos (who goes about even with me with snake and even in dittos; altho last time we played i beat his mk first set but lost to his snake in close 2nd set). But I lose to other characters, but rarely ever dittos unless it's ally we go back and forth (I have small advantage but very small)

I barely play fox anymore btw, I only use him because he's broken on pokemon stadium and I have no answer to jigglypuff (even my fox can't answer her; ive had a puff problem for long time)

Gah, we talk about this enough on the brawl boards, can we please have the melee boards being MK-ban free?

We banned him years ago anyway




Also, you're right, democracy is terrible, just less terrible then any other system we've come up with.

 

[john!]

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch."

 

[adumbrodeus]

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch."

Rule by the one is one wolf deciding what to have for lunch while ruling a hundred lambs.


Rule by the few is ten wolves deciding what to have for lunch while ruling a hundred lambs.



A bad monarchy is a hundred times worse then a bad democracy, but a good monarchy is twice as good as a good democracy. (arbitrary number values, but right idea, obviously)


Similar issue with a good aristocracy vs a bad aristocracy, but less extreme.


Democracy is mediocrity, yes it does still have fundamental issue of tyranny of the majority, but it's nowhere near as bad as the arbitrariness that's possible with more concentrated forms.

 

[john!]

what about a republic? that's better than democracy.

this thread is slowly getting off topic...

 

[adumbrodeus]

what about a republic? that's better than democracy.

this thread is slowly getting off topic...

Heh? No, a republic is a type of aristocracy and it really doesn't have sufficient control mechanic to prevent it from ultimately degrading.


Oh, you mean a republican democracy, it's primarily democracy, though it does have some of the advantages of a aristocracy, the major disadvantage is that it has the capacity to slide into a bad case of rule by the few without a coupe or revolution.




Also, guys, approaching is generally bad. I think PP responded to my post a while back, should probably find it and respond.

 

[Mew2King]

approaching with falcos lasers is very good though.

 

[Sinji]

Laser spacing meaning not lasering in the same spot or in the same pattern.

 

[Bones0]

Falco's lasers are not some sort of auto-approach option that people tend to make them out to be...

 

[adumbrodeus]

Falco's lasers make me wish I was better at power shielding.

 

[Mew2King]

well yeah not if you're obvious with them, but having that as a tool he can use at any time is EXTREMELY useful

 

[Deleted member]

Falco's lasers are not some sort of auto-approach option that people tend to make them out to be...

yeah actually they kind of are. lagless god-priority large hitbox with massive range that stuns and leads into absolutely anything or offers amazing projectile camping that forces opponents to jump with a character that can easily style out 60% combos. the only reason laser is bad is if you are bad. don't blame the perfect tool if you can't use it.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

noones saying laser isn't an amazing tool for approaching. Its just not guaranteed that when you shoot a laser and try to come in afterwards that you'll automatically land every approach. (Unless you're at the perfect laser spacing, and even then it's still not guaranteed.)

 

[gm jack]

But powershielding means they also have the perfect tool at their disposal. Weighing in that risk devalues it considerably.

 

[CloneHat]

The thing about lasers is that they force the opponent to either approach and/or take damage. That's power.

 

[adumbrodeus]

The thing about lasers is that they force the opponent to either approach and/or take damage. That's power.

Meh, not with Powershielding.

Problem is, even at this point in the game, there's nobody that's able to PS reliably enough.

 

[JPOBS]

PS'ing isn't even necessary to punish lasers.

 

[Bones0]

yeah actually they kind of are. lagless god-priority large hitbox with massive range that stuns and leads into absolutely anything or offers amazing projectile camping that forces opponents to jump with a character that can easily style out 60% combos. the only reason laser is bad is if you are bad. don't blame the perfect tool if you can't use it.

They have pretty bad startup and they don't offer any frame advantage because of landing lag. I never said they were bad though. On the contrary they're the best projectile in the game. All I was saying is that you can't just approach with lasers constantly and have any sort of success like most people seem to believe. They're used just as often, if not more often, in defensive ways than in offensive ways. Stuff like retreating lasers are used with much greater success than just approaching with SHLs.

 

[Strong Badam]

Lasers do have frame advantage. Hitlag that Falco doesn't have to suffer because of how projectiles work negates landlag, plus hitstun. Usually all the opponent can do in time if you're close is shield (or spacie shine) and we all know what happens when falco gets an opponent to shield.
laser to shine or jab combos also