Don't Approach: Melee's Flaw Dissected

[john!]

everyone else got it; melee has a ton of stage variety when compared to most other fighters.

and since this topic concerns fighting games in general, i thought it would be accurate to say that.

 

[SSBMLahti]

Myself and 99% of this sexy community, want to have fun while playing Melee, meaning we won't resort to camping or never approaching because it's just not fun.

I play aggressive and sometimes get ***** for it, I may lose sometimes because of it but I do it because it's fun. I will never be some campy *** player 'cause it's just boring in my eyes.

People tend to leave the fact that a lot of players don't want to play defensive and campy in their posts.

Melee.

 

[The Tycon]

some people find camping fun, though.

 

[SSBMLahti]

some people find camping fun, though.

Some, but not most.

Mango doesnt, Light does <-lawl.

 

[john!]

well, since hax is talking about top level play, and people at top level play do whatever it takes to win, then he's saying top level play will become overly defensive despite the fact that it isn't "fun"

...unless you're mango and you can do stupid **** and still be the best in the world

 

[ShroudedOne]

Whenever people talk negatively about camping (which doesn't make sense, but whatever) they fail to mention the fact that not everyone is going to have fun playing the game the same way. Some people find it more fun to see how long they can outrun their opponent, some people find it more fun to rush down their opponent. Even saying "most people prefer to approach" I find flawed, cause we can't take a sample of the community and find out exactly who likes doing what.

Also, without clear definitions of what it means to camp, and what it means to approach, we can't even do that.

 

[SSBMLahti]

Whenever people talk negatively about camping (which doesn't make sense, but whatever) they fail to mention the fact that not everyone is going to have fun playing the game the same way. Some people find it more fun to see how long they can outrun their opponent, some people find it more fun to rush down their opponent. Even saying "most people prefer to approach" I find flawed, cause we can't take a sample of the community and find out exactly who likes doing what.

Also, without clear definitions of what it means to camp, and what it means to approach, we can't even do that.

Appraoching...moving closer to your opponent maybe?

Camping...not moving closer your opponent maybe?

Very basic and elementary way of explaining it, but yeah I'm lazy.

 

[Divinokage]

Alright so...

DDing close to your enemy looking for a roll is what? Defensive or Offensive now? looll.

 

[SSBMLahti]

Alright so...

DDing close to your enemy looking for a roll is what? Defensive or Offensive now? looll.

Offdefensive.

Jeez.

But I'd say offensive <3

 

[Sinji]

Just believe
And you will achieve

 

[SSBMLahti]

Just believe
And you will achieve

I believe you will stop changing your avatar every day.

 

[omgwtfToph]

2 quick points that nobody really brought up:

1. it doesn't really matter, or mean anything, for melee if it is truly the case that defensive play is ultimately superior. most melee players have so much fun with the game that they couldn't camp for more than 2-3 minutes if they were getting paid to do so. (there are numerous examples of this) how many matches do you really see go to time between good players? most bracket matches in nationals are "legit" and I think it's going to continue to be that way

2. that said, an interesting corollary to hax's argument is, if the metagame ever does "degenerate" to the point where defensive play straight out beats offensive play, i think you could make a pretty good case for melee 2v2 being richer/deeper than 1v1. you can't really camp in 2v2, haha. plus the cast list is arguably much more balanced because of the mechanics inherent in teams gameplay

 

[Sinji]

I believe you will stop changing your avatar every day.

Tru. I believe you will stop getting distracted from it.

I believe in the heart of the cards. (Yugioh)

 

[j00t]

It's still 6 times as various as the traditional fighter.

six times zero is zero, you know.

 

[crush]

Seriously though. Noone in the Melee community should fret.

Why? I thought playing guitar made your fingers faster for melee.

 

[HugS™]

LoL Leffen, there was nothing in my post to show that I'm butthurt, just pointing out your pattern of immaturity.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

Whenever people talk negatively about camping (which doesn't make sense, but whatever) they fail to mention the fact that not everyone is going to have fun playing the game the same way. Some people find it more fun to see how long they can outrun their opponent, some people find it more fun to rush down their opponent. Even saying "most people prefer to approach" I find flawed, cause we can't take a sample of the community and find out exactly who likes doing what.

Also, without clear definitions of what it means to camp, and what it means to approach, we can't even do that.

If you have fun watching stuff like this you should probably be playing Brawl.

 

[ShroudedOne]

It's the fact that that is one of the many styles Melee has to offer that makes this game amazing. Just because you like campy doesn't mean you like Brawl (no one likes tripping).

And that set wasn't THAT horrible.

 

[Deleted member]

LoL Leffen, there was nothing in my post to show that I'm butthurt, just pointing out your pattern of immaturity.

It's not immaturity really. The pattern is usually something like "Falco sucks, America sucks, I'm awesome". As soon as you realize that he's just going to say the same **** over and over again, it becomes more entertaining to watch him post.

 

[crush]

Blah. You just hate Melee. And I can only partially see why.

Brawlers gonna brawl.

 

[Mew2King]

Myself and 99% of this sexy community, want to have fun while playing Melee, meaning we won't resort to camping or never approaching because it's just not fun.

I play aggressive and sometimes get ***** for it, I may lose sometimes because of it but I do it because it's fun. I will never be some campy *** player 'cause it's just boring in my eyes.

People tend to leave the fact that a lot of players don't want to play defensive and campy in their posts.

Melee.

this is the newbiest thing i have ever heard LOL

It's not immaturity really. The pattern is usually something like "Falco sucks, America sucks, I'm awesome". As soon as you realize that he's just going to say the same **** over and over again, it becomes more entertaining to watch him post.

this is also funny because it's completely true. all falco players like to pretend they don't play the best or 2nd best character.

 

[Kal]

Myself and 99% of this sexy community, want to have fun while playing Melee, meaning we won't resort to camping or never approaching because it's just not fun.

I play aggressive and sometimes get ***** for it, I may lose sometimes because of it but I do it because it's fun. I will never be some campy *** player 'cause it's just boring in my eyes.

People tend to leave the fact that a lot of players don't want to play defensive and campy in their posts.

In friendlies, do whatever the hell you want. In tournament, I expect people to play to win. If it turns out that whatever subjective notion you have of what is "not fun" wins, then I'm going to use it.

Of course, as ShroudedOne pointed out (and props to him for being one of the few people to actually make this very important point), what is fun is subjective. Some players legitimately enjoy camping. It's annoying to you because you enjoy the opposite, and what they're doing also works against what you're doing, i.e., if you're trying to be aggressive and get in your fun-*** combos, it's not going to be easy if your opponent runs away.

2. that said, an interesting corollary to hax's argument is, if the metagame ever does "degenerate" to the point where defensive play straight out beats offensive play, i think you could make a pretty good case for melee 2v2 being richer/deeper than 1v1. you can't really camp in 2v2, haha. plus the cast list is arguably much more balanced because of the mechanics inherent in teams gameplay

I want to make it clear that defensive gameplay is not in any way shallower than offensive gameplay. People should not worry about the game's depth when they notice a tendency towards defensive gameplay. They should worry about subjective preference (which is a normal exercise one goes through before choosing to compete in any game).

Anyway, I would say that it's almost tautological that 2v2 is deeper than 1v1. It seems obvious to me that taking a game which maintains a very similar gameplay to 1v1, and simply adds additional "characters" (in this game "characters" are combinations of characters), as well as additional players, will necessarily add depth.

 

[S0FT]

I feel like limiting yourself to one particular style and saying it's the "best" will never allow anyone to be the number one player.

If you only know how to play defensively you will always have a disadvantage vs players who can play both defensively and aggressively.

It also seems kind of ridiculous to think there is one "formula" or one "strategy" that will work vs everyone, when people have the ability to play so differently.

 

[Deleted member]

I feel like limiting yourself to one particular style and saying it's the "best" will never allow anyone to be the number one player.

If you only know how to play defensively you will always have a disadvantage vs players who can play both defensively and aggressively.

It also seems kind of ridiculous to think there is one "formula" or one "strategy" that will work vs everyone, when people have the ability to play so differently.

seems to be working for mango. mango's style is just jigglypuff translated into every character.

the better you get at the game, the more one style makes more sense because at that point you can attack the character weakness instead of the player weakness. players can adapt, but the characters have been the same for ten years. abusing what the characters cannot deal with is going to be repetitive but it's also going to win more than anything else.

 

[leffen]

this is also funny because it's completely true. all falco players like to pretend they don't play the best or 2nd best character.

its funny because it isnt true at all. I don't play Falco anymore and he isnt my best character anymore either. I play Yoshi and Fox ;o

and lol, you play fox and metaknight (the two best character, one seen so good as it breaks the game completely) and you ALWAYS say that its because you are good and not because the character is OP lol.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

quit caring so much :|

 

[leffen]

I think you mistake me caring over me trolling people who are on a internet forum and yet they still find it worth their time to call people immature LOL

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The Internet: Where if you get insulted and try and defend yourself, you are caring too much.

 

[crush]

I love leffen he's my role model and I wanna grow up to be just like him.

 

[john!]

I think you mistake me caring over me trolling people who are on a internet forum and yet they still find it worth their time to call people immature LOL

ah, the old "i was just trolling the whole time" defense

where's that trollface comic?

 

[leffen]

I wrote what I thought, it just so happens that I stopped saying anything constructive after the second post so trolling / spamming / whatever obviously happened.

and lol hugs, "ENDLESSLY RIPPED ON ME ONLINE" hahahahahaha really. I said I didnt want to argue with someone who just used someone elses arguments without a clue him self (I also answered to someone who said that you were way better than me by quoting our placements lol) and you call that "endlessly rippin". One time, god dammmm

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

Oh Leffen.

 

[VGmasta]

I'm Hax brought up this thread.

Doc has an uphill battle everytime he loses the lead.

And Shroomed is good at CCing into grabs/dsmashes. But it's absolutely necessary as Doc.

I'm glad this game has crouch cancelling for some of the lower tier characters. But I really wish Peach and Ganon didn't have CCing (vs Doc anyway). It's tough enough to approach Peach and Ganon without them crouch cancelling my aerials into grabs. And it's not like it's safe for Doc to crouch against Ganon or Peach.

And the pills don't do all the work either. Peach's b-air and n-air cuts through them always. Ganon coconut jumps right over them. And if there are any platforms for Ganon to use, then Doc is totally ***'d.

Anyways, great thread Hax.

 

[Sinji]

You need both tactics to win a battle. Mainly pressure is needed for both factors to be successful.

Camping with a space animal (mainly fox) is a great tool to use. While camping, use tricky approaches then fall back and camp again. This is good defensive pressure for several reasons because it leaves your opponent guessing. But camping should be the last thing you should do,(especially if your stock gap is further away from the opponent). Use CC in areas that can lead up to a nice follow up like under the tip of the middle level platform.

Approaching should be taken more methodical. laser spacing (especially with falco) should be taken into consideration. Use platforms to your advantage.

At a players stand point, don't feel intimidated by the other player. Think about the character that their using and develop a game plan before the match.

Always believe.
And you will achieve.

 

[HugS™]

I wrote what I thought, it just so happens that I stopped saying anything constructive after the second post so trolling / spamming / whatever obviously happened.

and lol hugs, "ENDLESSLY RIPPED ON ME ONLINE" hahahahahaha really. I said I didnt want to argue with someone who just used someone elses arguments without a clue him self (I also answered to someone who said that you were way better than me by quoting our placements lol) and you call that "endlessly rippin". One time, god dammmm

I just don't understand what prompted you to talk **** to a guy who up until then had no clue who you were. And to say you were a better player too...LOL I don't know what kind of reaction you'd expect from a dude like me.

 

[Mew2King]

its funny because it isnt true at all. I don't play Falco anymore and he isnt my best character anymore either. I play Yoshi and Fox ;o

and lol, you play fox and metaknight (the two best character, one seen so good as it breaks the game completely) and you ALWAYS say that its because you are good and not because the character is OP lol.

that IS why. I broke the character, I invented tactics that got him banned (when he shouldn't be; a democracy is a terrible system), and I also can 2 or 3 stock EVERY other top MK out there except for ally in dittos (who goes about even with me with snake and even in dittos; altho last time we played i beat his mk first set but lost to his snake in close 2nd set). But I lose to other characters, but rarely ever dittos unless it's ally we go back and forth (I have small advantage but very small)

I barely play fox anymore btw, I only use him because he's broken on pokemon stadium and I have no answer to jigglypuff (even my fox can't answer her; ive had a puff problem for long time)

 

[Grim Tuesday]

He shouldn't be banned in your opinion. You are making it sound like something objective whenever you talk about it when really, he was borderline banworthy.

 

[Mew2King]

no he wasn't

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Well, I guess you're right then.

My bad.

 

[Mike G]