Balanced Brawl Public Preview *GENESIS UPDATE*

[Amazing Ampharos]

A small question...

it says, "Footstool abuse" removed, what exactly does that pertain to? Being a Link main, I do have some rather useful ways that I implicate footstools on occasion, and I'm wondering if they still work. To be precise, Bombstools.

I also am wondering a small bit about the removal of Jablocks... but I suppose it is neccesary.

The change to footstools is that if you footstool an aerial opponent (ZSS's stun effect counts as aerial) and they hit the ground while helpless, they don't slam into the ground and instead just do a normal landing and can thus shield. Any combo involving a footstool on a grounded opponent or an aerial footstool that does not abuse the landing effect will be completely in-tact. If your combo did require that, consider it a victim of removing things that were quite sinister.

I am not sure the DK cargo behavior is actually a glitch, and either way it's not really something that could be easily changed. DK, to be honest, didn't see much play in our internal testing (though he saw somewhat more than Peach and Snake). It doesn't mean that we stand by our work relative to him any less than for anyone else, but it does mean we have to rely on the DK mains out there to show us what he can do... or show us his limits.

 

[Suspect]

Wait so snake can still grab and uptilt you from like the other side of FD still?

 

[Rykoshet]

I'll have vids up as of tonight.

 

[5ive]

I think the people who failed to accept Brawl+ will accept this project. That is a whole lot of people. But I think this project could get in the way of Brawl+. Please read the below.

The reason why people didn't like Brawl+ was:

The similarities to Melee
The new physics
Combos

Or simply because they already liked Brawl.

This project keeps all Brawl's physics intact, but makes characters balanced:

That appeals to so much more people than the Brawl+ project. Rather than learning a new game and physics, the vBrawl players will almost make a direct transition into this hack.

Because this is essentially Brawl with better balance, I am pretty sure this will be more widespread than Brawl+.

There are some people who joined Brawl+ because of the character balancing, not the new physics. Now, they can choose BBrawl instead of Brawl+.

Of course, I think Brawl+ will be more of a tournament game, as it is a totally different game in comparison to BBrawl. No offense to the creators of this project, but if the SBR ever has to choose between BBrawl and vBrawl, obviously, vBrawl will come out the winner.

If the goal of this is to be a side event kind of thing, I still think Brawl+ is the superior. Like I said, this project WILL undoubtedly get in the way of Brawl+; creating a split in the hacking community.

 

[Big O]

I agree, those things would be awesome, but I think it would buff DK too much.

But seriously, cargo thing is really annoying, get rid of it.

Maybe DIing backwards during up B too.

You just have to accept that some moves like side B and nair just are not so good.

I think if the goal is to have everyone be as good as Diddy then even with all of those changes he'd need a little bit more to be just as good. Even without D3's chaingrabs he isn't as good overall but is pretty close.

I didn't mention dash attack or some other not as good moves because buffing them wouldn't really do anything. It sucks that jab combo won't really combo until like 30% but it wouldn't really help if that was fixed. If Nair had a bigger hit box it could be used to get rid of pikmin, beat the tornado from above, clank with fireballs, Pit's arrows 100% of the time instead of it being seemingly random for all of those. If side b had less cooldown it would fix being punished for hitting them with it and help as a better aerial stall. Those kind of changes would be more meaningful and he could use a few slight tweaks.

They still wouldn't be great moves but at least they would be worth using once in a while. Some moves are okay being not so good but moves like a spike being punished after a successful hit is kinda silly.

 

[Thinkaman]

really really amazing.. Yay yoshi buffs!! Very excited about it..

Would have liked to have a random force trip on down tilt but still very very very good.

I'm not sure d-tilt trip would be natural at all for Yoshi, but you have perked my interest in terms of what effect that would have. I love these mental exercises.

Yoshi's d-tilt ends in only 30 frames... it would need to be at least 40 for d-tilt to not be an infinite combo sans SDI, so we would almost certainly have to nerf the speed of the move considerably.

Yoshi's d-tilt hits 3 frames earlier than Falcon's so he would have 3 frames less to followup.

Could Yoshi get a dashgrab on roll away? I bet so. Yoshi could probably get an f-smash on get-up-attack, but I doubt it could on standup. D-smash is certain on f-roll.

It would be interesting, and probably not tremendously useful. It would make Yoshi a little more like Ganondorf, that's for sure. The idea that we would have to slow down the attack 33% to make this possible really kills the idea, but it's still interesting to think about.

 

[noradseven]

I almost came in here and raged about how dumb this is, then I actually read what you were doing it sounds interesting because it looks more like what other game patches look like slight changes to damage or specific moves not physics changes or concept changes.

How often is this going to be officially updated, like seriously don't offical update too much like maybe 7-8 times a year MAX.

 

[Thinkaman]

How often is this going to be officially updated, like seriously don't offical update too much like maybe 7-8 times a year MAX.

While we are not going to commit to an update schedule just yet, I would like to see this project updated only biannually. Of course, this is after the dust settles from this preview build, and we get valuable feedback and data we can use to make our first true final version.

Me and Ampharos will reserve the right to make urgent updates if needed; what if we made some big mistake and created an infinite? However, both of us agree that when it comes to updating, less is more. Balance changes have to be "digested" by the players and community, and that takes time.

 

[Plum]

I think the people who failed to accept Brawl+ will accept this project. That is a whole lot of people. But I think this project could get in the way of Brawl+. Please read the below.

The reason why people didn't like Brawl+ was:

The similarities to Melee
The new physics
Combos

Or simply because they already liked Brawl.

This project keeps all Brawl's physics intact, but makes characters balanced:

That appeals to so much more people than the Brawl+ project. Rather than learning a new game and physics, the vBrawl players will almost make a direct transition into this hack.

Because this is essentially Brawl with better balance, I am pretty sure this will be more widespread than Brawl+.

There are some people who joined Brawl+ because of the character balancing, not the new physics. Now, they can choose BBrawl instead of Brawl+.

Of course, I think Brawl+ will be more of a tournament game, as it is a totally different game in comparison to BBrawl. No offense to the creators of this project, but if the SBR ever has to choose between BBrawl and vBrawl, obviously, vBrawl will come out the winner.

If the goal of this is to be a side event kind of thing, I still think Brawl+ is the superior. Like I said, this project WILL undoubtedly get in the way of Brawl+; creating a split in the hacking community.

I don't see how a split in the hacking community would really happen.
Everybody working on B+ is giving it their full support because of how much they enjoy the project, its not like any of the WBR is going to quit B+ to play BBrawl. To the users who want the balance without the physics, I would hope most had enough fun with B+ to keep following the project... it isn't like you can't enjoy each version of Brawl. I can definitely see people who will follow each project as well as vBrawl. Plenty of top level vBrawl players already play both B+ and vBrawl, and if switching between this and vBrawl is going to be as seamless as it intends then there is no reason to not be able to play all three.

Overall I do see this project having more widespread potential then B+. B+ will fill more of a niche in the Brawl world, for those who like a faster gameplay along with what Brawl brings to the table (whether it is characters, stages, or Brawl specific AT's) whereas this caters to a more diverse community who prefer the slower paced gameplay but would like a more balanced cast at the same time.

It's even harder to say that this could take over B+ considering how far B+ has already made it with a solid tourney scene developing. A few B+ only tourneys, a lot of side event tourneys, things like Chu's Biweeklies using B+ as a main event, and etc. already show how successful B+ is, and I just can't see this ever overtaking that success.

They are going to cater to different groups, and those who want fun speed activate are going to still choose B+.

 

[noradseven]

The reason I don't like brawl+ has nothing to do with its faster game its its less user control, and I mean thats what is awesome about brawl besides its characters, I mean I wish brawl was in speed brawl all the time, but I mean even brawl+ or melee for that matter, has none of the speed of MvC2 or even melty.

This is the main reason why most of my friends who don't like it don't like it of course the ppl who do like it arn't bothered by it. But don't always put it up too we like slow games.

While we are not going to commit to an update schedule just yet, I would like to see this project updated only biannually. Of course, this is after the dust settles from this preview build, and we get valuable feedback and data we can use to make our first true final version.

Me and Ampharos will reserve the right to make urgent updates if needed; what if we made some big mistake and created an infinite? However, both of us agree that when it comes to updating, less is more. Balance changes have to be "digested" by the players and community, and that takes time.

Thats probably the best scedual I was just saying don't go down the route of going crazy with updates I have seen this happen before, not just in brawl+, and it just alienates the community.

2 times a year is probably the best, and I like the love of ganon, and can't wait to try this out it actually seems p. good.

Now this just has to overtake brawl + in tournment enviros.

 

[daisho]

I am not sure the DK cargo behavior is actually a glitch, and either way it's not really something that could be easily changed. DK, to be honest, didn't see much play in our internal testing (though he saw somewhat more than Peach and Snake). It doesn't mean that we stand by our work relative to him any less than for anyone else, but it does mean we have to rely on the DK mains out there to show us what he can do... or show us his limits.

I always refer to Big O on anything to do with in depth research or testing. (Hes amazing at it btw, I really appreciate the work you put in). And I'm pretty sure it is a glitch. Here is a quote from his frame thread:

"100+5*D-10*N is the formula for the cargo hold's duration in frames. D is damage % the opponent has during the cargo hold and N is the number of button inputs the opponent does. The cargo hold gets cargo armor on frame 1 (after pressing forwards so it's nigh instant) and you can start to move/throw on frame 20. Frame 20 is also when the formula starts. The secret method (which shall remain secret at least in here) reads as a constant button press every frame : ("

That means that it is a real glitch. If its too hard for you guys to get rid of then I understand, but if DK could do all the stuff he used to be able to do, like carry guys to the edge and D throw or CSS then I think it would help get DK up to Diddy level.

Maybe with nair instead of giving it a bigger hitbox make it hit at a better trajectory. I always felt it would be a useful attack if it hit horizontally instead of its stupid angle that it does now.

 

[TreK]

OMFG just what I always dreamed of !
I WILL support you guys
Just not now cus it's 2 am. I faved the thread tho.

I don't know anything about hacking, but if there's any way to help this project, pm me. I intent to tell french people about it asap.

 

[5ive]

I don't see how a split in the hacking community would really happen.
Everybody working on B+ is giving it their full support because of how much they enjoy the project, its not like any of the WBR is going to quit B+ to play BBrawl. To the users who want the balance without the physics, I would hope most had enough fun with B+ to keep following the project... it isn't like you can't enjoy each version of Brawl. I can definitely see people who will follow each project as well as vBrawl. Plenty of top level vBrawl players already play both B+ and vBrawl, and if switching between this and vBrawl is going to be as seamless as it intends then there is no reason to not be able to play all three.

Overall I do see this project having more widespread potential then B+. B+ will fill more of a niche in the Brawl world, for those who like a faster gameplay along with what Brawl brings to the table (whether it is characters, stages, or Brawl specific AT's) whereas this caters to a more diverse community who prefer the slower paced gameplay but would like a more balanced cast at the same time.

It's even harder to say that this could take over B+ considering how far B+ has already made it with a solid tourney scene developing. A few B+ only tourneys, a lot of side event tourneys, things like Chu's Biweeklies using B+ as a main event, and etc. already show how successful B+ is, and I just can't see this ever overtaking that success.

They are going to cater to different groups, and those who want fun speed activate are going to still choose B+.

Nicely said. I pretty much agree with you that this project will have a hard time overtaking Brawl+'s tournament success.

I still think that this will get more attention from a wider select of people. The greater attention that this project will get will indirectly effect and hinder Brawl+'s development in terms of spreading as a tournament game.

Like I've said, BBrawl will have more widespread potential than Brawl+. Look at the positive support this already has. When Brawl+ started, there was a huge debate on whether the physic changes would be a good idea. Compare it to right now, where it seems as though I am the only one who is questioning it.

I can't say I'm a supporter of this project, but I definitely am not a hater. Good luck.

I intent to tell french people about it asap.

This is the kind of global support Brawl+ needs. Tell them about Brawl+. Seriously.

 

[The Cunning Weasel]

down with Brawl+ and hooray for BBrawl.

bring on the hate >.> this project looks more appealing

 

[Thinkaman]

Now this just has to overtake brawl + in tournment enviros.

I mean, there's no competition going on. We just want our project to be as well-developed as possible, and for as many people to enjoy it as much as possible. Brawl+ seems to be after the same goals, for different people. I agree with those who say the "conflict" is imaginary.

Our main obstacle, that is see, if gaining acceptance among mains of Pikachu, DDD, and Falco; not because they are particularly better or worse, but simply different. We have testers with all three of them as mains who approve of the changes, so it's promising... but only time will tell, and we will continue listening to pursue the best solutions. I urge everyone to pay careful attention to these characters.

Other characters should universally enjoy the changes; even mains of MK, Snake, and Wario have widely approved of the nerfs they received.

 

[5ive]

down with Brawl+ and hooray for BBrawl.

bring on the hate >.> this project looks more appealing

And there is a perfect example of my worries.

/bringontrolls

 

[demonictoonlink]

Eh...I guess I'll just have to try it...but...From what it seems, the TL part is bull****

 

[King~]

im an idiot so im having trouble getting the codes to work, i keep saying error to many code lines found





even though i dont like the sound of what happend to pikachu i would like to give this a try.

 

[jokey665]

im an idiot so im having trouble getting the codes to work, i keep saying error to many code lines found





even though i dont like the sound of what happend to pikachu i would like to give this a try.

Are you using the newest Gecko OS? If so, do you have gameconfig.txt in the root of your SD card?

 

[Thinkaman]

Eh...I guess I'll just have to try it...but...From what it seems, the TL part is bull****

Hmmm? Toon Link's grounded up-B is simply a little bit more damaging and more consistent, since people hit by the tip used to not be sucked in always.

We were not sure that Toon Link needed any help, but we decided to err in his favor and include this modest buff. He has done quite well in testing, he likes the MK nerfs more than most characters too.

im an idiot so im having trouble getting the codes to work, i keep saying error to many code lines found

even though i dont like the sound of what happend to pikachu i would like to give this a try.

Do you have the gameconfig.txt file in the root of your SD card?

 

[Stealth Raptor]

I mean, there's no competition going on. We just want our project to be as well-developed as possible, and for as many people to enjoy it as much as possible. Brawl+ seems to be after the same goals, for different people. I agree with those who say the "conflict" is imaginary.

Our main obstacle, that is see, if gaining acceptance among mains of Pikachu, DDD, and Falco; not because they are particularly better or worse, but simply different. We have testers with all three of them as mains who approve of the changes, so it's promising... but only time will tell, and we will continue listening to pursue the best solutions. I urge everyone to pay careful attention to these characters.

Other characters should universally enjoy the changes; even mains of MK, Snake, and Wario have widely approved of the nerfs they received.

you have my full support, though i guarantee that most pikachus will hate this.

 

[Thinkaman]

If we can find a way for Bowser to avoid the f-throw CG, we can restore f-throw's speed by 6 frames so that it is barely different from the original but can't CG Fox and friends. (It can even get gauranteed u-smash at 0%!)

 

[hotgarbage]

I may post more in-depth impressions later, but for the time being: this project is great. It's already clearly a better game than Brawl, so hats off to both of you . Keep up the good work!

 

[King~]

Are you using the newest Gecko OS? If so, do you have gameconfig.txt in the root of your SD card?

yep got the 1.9


i guess this is where im getting lost

does it need to be amongst the folders(apps, and codes)

or does it need to be in one of said folders

 

[Plum]

And there is a perfect example of my worries.

/bringontrolls

Well you can always think on the bright side:

Player 1 wants to play BBrawl.
Player 1 installs the HBC.
Player 1 has a good time playing BBrawl, yay!
Player 1 already has the HBC installed, decides he mine as well try B+.
Player 1 has a good time with B+ too, yay!

There is truth in saying that there are a fair number of Brawl players who would try B+ if they could, but might be afraid to install the HBC.
Something like this may push more people to install it (the Wii is basically brick proof with BootMii, and every method of installing is proven to be perfectly safe) and curiosity will cause people to try BBrawl as well as B+ out.

 

[demonictoonlink]

@Thinkaman: Aight...I'll play around with him. I guess having people like Snake and Meta nerfed should help ^^

 

[jokey665]

yep got the 1.9


i guess this is where im getting lost

does it need to be amongst the folders(apps, and codes)

or does it need to be in one of said folders

gameconfig.txt needs to be in the root, so if your sd card is drive letter F it should be

F:/gameconfig.txt

and not in any other folder.

 

[goodkid]

I don't know if I agree w/ this. This is good as a side event only for now.

 

[Tyr_03]

I don't understand the rationale behind removing jab and Dtilt locks. They are rarely set up because they can always be avoided by teching or airdodging except in the rare case of footstools which only applies to a few characters. Taking Lucas's Dtilt lock out really hurts his game because he actually has a decent setup for it at higher percentages allowing him to combo into kill moves.

This project in general seems very futile to me. Removing infinites is great and all but actually making the game more balanced to any great extent seems more or less impossible to me. Some characters are always going to be noticably better than other characters unless you remove a great deal of variety. I doubt that this could be significantly more balanced than Brawl is.

I'm not against the project or anything I just doubt that it will ever interest me enough to play it. It won't become a tournament standard and honestly, I have a feeling that most people who want to play an edited version of Brawl will just go for Brawl+ because it's more flashy.

Not being mean. Just giving honest input.

 

[NintenJoe]

so, if I have texture hacking that works properly on my SD card (meaning I have Gecko and Homebrew) can I just simply put the gameconfig file in the base of my SD card or do I have to download and place more things in various places?

 

[5ive]

I don't know if I agree w/ this. This is good as a side event only for now.

Some one PLEASE say Brawl+.




Please.

Even as a side event, Brawl+ is vastly superior.

 

[stingers]

5ive, please stop talking about Brawl+ in here -_-

 

[Lily]

Brawl+ > this poop

>_<

 

[money113]

Can someone please play me with this thing? I wanna see how good I am at wi-fi...
Brwal FC:2277-8918-2997

 

[Thinkaman]

so, if I have texture hacking that works properly on my SD card (meaning I have Gecko and Homebrew) can I just simply put the gameconfig file in the base of my SD card or do I have to download and place more things in various places?

That's it. If you already have that file, great, that'll work. If you need it, just add it.

Of course, the main file is the RSBE01.gct file, that's what has all the important things in it. You only need gameconfig.txt to load big files it. Make sense?

EDIT: Money, I'll play with you a round or two. Online now.

 

[5ive]

Getting kind of annoying, right?

Here's my final thought, then I'm done for good:

This project is aimed at balance, I support that; but what really was one of Brawl+'s original intent?

Speed? Combos? Edge Guards?

Many people forget about the balancing. As a member of the hacking community, I thing Brawl+ is being intruded on. I agree, this project sounds good on paper, and has a more widespread appeal than Brawl+ but...

It's stealing our thunder.

Alright, back to the IRC.

 

[stingers]

5ive, people will play what they want to. Don't try to force anything on anybody.

 

[5ive]

I didn't say or even imply anything that forced anyone into playing a certain hack. I'm just stating my opinion, which I'm entitled too.

 

[Sakuraba Neku]

I always thought regular brawl players enjoyed their two character roster?

but seriously I don't really see this getting to even a side event since this is just a more balanced Brawl =/.

 

[XACE-K]

Grat job with this Ampharos, this is a pretty good idea. But I'll stick with Brawl+. I prefer its speed over Brawl which BBrawl will be keeping.