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Balanced Brawl Public Preview *GENESIS UPDATE*

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A2ZOMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Oct 13, 2007
Messages
12,542
Location
RPV, California
NNID
A2ZOMG
Switch FC
SW 8400 1713 9427
Just saying...

Ganondorf and G&W need a few more tricks.

Ganondorf needs one aerial besides his D-air that can be used to hit people under him. He needs something like the lag of N-air reduced so it is relatively safe on block just so that it isn't a simple deal of shieldcamping and spotdodging him to death.

Ganondorf's B-throw needs to be able to kill before 180%. His D-throw and U-throw just need to be plain better, they do mediocre damage and have little setup value. His U-throw sends people way too high, but never kills. His D-throw sends people too far away from him to easily set up. Something there needs to be changed, considering how difficult it is for Ganondorf to grab in the first place anyway.

G&W needs better close up options, since all of his attacks are on the slow side and have less range than someone like Marth. D-smash should be frame 10 (the same frame as the 2nd hit of MK's D-smash), spotdodge should be a bit faster, Up-B should be invincible starting frame 1. Or if you don't give him that, at least make his D-throw better, like more damaging, or untechable.

Other things that I can think of off the top of my head that needed balancing:

Mario's B-throw needs to have more knockback (like Luigi's).
ROB needs something besides U-air that does good damage.
Kirby and Fox, like Luigi, suffer from the huge problem of approaching and not having a good camping to compensate.

Also I'm just nitpicking, but I can't see how the change to Sonic's Up-B is a game changer. His Up-B is easily outprioritized by many attacks, so most characters can just Up-B right through it.
 

Linkshot

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Messages
5,236
Location
Hermit in the Highrise
BACK TO BUSINESS

I'd prefer Live & Learn for the WiFi Training Room (I'm in a Sonic craze), or Target Smash!!.

I'd suggest having Samus kill reliably at around 140%, seeing as she can't rack up damage quite as fast as Sonic (actually, she's just not as fast as Sonic, period).

I'm okay with Samus having trouble close-range; it defines her.

I, personally, would give the Super Missiles the gimping power of ROB's laser. Super Missiles are harder to land with little reward. Harshly lower KBG and greatly buff the BKB (unless they already gimp well).

All-in-all, Samus is famous for shooting crap at people. I'd focus on making Bomb and Screw Attack her gtfo moves. Higher BKB on Bomb should be interesting without causing major changes.

Although, this all depends on where she stands right now. I feel bad for not being able to try this out yet.
 

Me_Aludes

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 9, 2008
Messages
144
lol @ all the B+ discussion

This is not a branch of Brawl+ nor is anything a branch of Brawl+ just because it uses codes. Even Kupo's set, which contained only small differences from the official set was not truely Brawl+, per se. zxeon, or anyone else, please don't mention this again. Let's drop the Brawl+ name semantics.

While the codes used in our project were made for us, everyone is free to use them unless stated by the author (in the possible case of PK's future throw mod, for example).
WTH. Kupo's set IS Brawl+. It was Brawl+ before Plussery existed, and it's still Brawl+. Brawl+ is about modding the game by using hacks.

kupo's right. The plussery seems to want to keep their codes secret. which IMO is really stupid. if you believe that i'm wrong, i'll ask: when was the last time a code was posted in the Code Agenda? i don't care if the Plussery wants to keep their changes they're trying secret (it's their project), but not releasing the codes doesn't seem the way to go. just sayin'

and zxeon is right too. this is B+, just with another name.

if anyone wants to quote me: i won't answer here, because this thread is about bBrawl and stuff, and this discussion is really pointless.
 

cobaltblue

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
455
Man seeing you guys like this makes me wonder how the creators of Brawl and Nintendo feel when their work gets twisted by hackers....
 

Big O

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Jun 13, 2008
Messages
1,401
Location
California
NNID
BiiigOOO
I must say all the semantics arguments really need to go. The flame wars should also be in PM's instead of in this thread.

A2Z, most of our changes aren't really doable at the moment. Most throws can't be changed yet and invincibility frames can't be shifted around. They are more or less stuck on whatever frames they are assigned to regardless of how you speed up or slow down the moves. Also frame speed changes to moves or landing lag is only done if other changes can't fix the character. It is only really done as a last resort or to prevent infinites/grab release shenanigans. While I agree Ganon still needs work, I doubt G&W needs any significant buffs. The most I would expect are slight buffs or some kind of trade-offs to help depolarize his match-ups. He did wreck a good portion of the cast pretty badly in regular Brawl after all.
 

Steeler

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 5, 2006
Messages
5,930
Location
Wichita
NNID
Steeler
"brawl+" and "hacking project that aims to change the competitive value of brawl" are not synonyms people, regardless of whether they share some codes or not.

anyway wichita will be recording some bbrawl matches today so you all can expect to see my PT ****** everything in sight.

loljk

i meant to say that you can expect to see Mr. Doom's Ike ****** everything in sight

edit change charizard fsmash hit 1 to not suck so badly and hit them directly behind charizard, avoiding the second hit, if they merely hold the stick that way
 

Linkshot

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Messages
5,236
Location
Hermit in the Highrise
Nintendo is probably laughing at us because they got paid to make an unbalanced game and we're painstakingly balancing it for free; they still get the profits from the games purchased, too.

I'd suggest changing trajectory on dThrow/uThrow is it really has become a problem (or at least to stop all the whining). Maybe up and forward? Yes, I realise you want to keep his tech-chase game.

I guess they are getting closer to figuring out how to modify throws...until then, we'll just plug our ears :p
 

Big O

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Jun 13, 2008
Messages
1,401
Location
California
NNID
BiiigOOO
I think you could do a sum in the op about what you already decided to change thx to the feedback... I was about to re-spam about the water =D

And I'm going to respam about the PAL version because the search fonction really sucks at searching. Is a trial version out ? I told you I intended to be a PAL tester D=
Here is the PAL set. I just copy pasted this from AA's post. These are the codes so just copy paste this into notepad and use that to make your own GCT with code manager or whatever program you use. AA mentioned that the stage boundary mods are missing in this too just fyi.

Code:
Default Settings Standard
* 24496898 80000000
* 20525200 00000000
* 04525200 DEADBEEF
* 4A000000 9000E220
* 1417F360 00000102
* 1417F364 03000A00
* 1417F368 08010101
* 1417F36C 01000000
* E0000000 80008000

Stage Specific Speed Reduction
* 4A000000 9000E220
* 1416A904 3F000000
* 3A180F3A 00000004
* 3A180F3A 00000005
* 1416A904 3F2AAAAB
* 3A180F3A 00000024
* 3A180F3A 0000002D
* 3A180F3A 00000031
* 1416A904 3F800000
* E0000000 80008000

Character ID Fix
* C2810318 00000006
* 819E003C 907EFFFC
* 80E30030 2C07000F
* 40A2001C 80FE0008
* 3C008180 7C070000
* 4080000C 39030008
* 9107FFFC 00000000

Frame speed mod engine V3.1
* C2761C20 00000012
* 3C008180 807D0008
* 8063FFFC 7C030000
* 4080000C 80630030
* 48000008 386000FF
* 809D0014 C0240040
* FC40081E 80840058
* 60848000 D8410008
* 8001000C 80BD007C
* 80A50038 38C200D8
* 84E60008 2C070000
* 41820038 7CE8C671
* 41A0000C 7C081800
* 4082FFE8 54E8863E
* 7C004000 41A0FFDC
* 54E8043E 7C082800
* 4182000C 7C082000
* 4082FFC8 C0060004
* D01F0010 00000000
* C2761FB8 00000003
* 2C1D0001 4182000C
* C0230010 48000008
* C02283C0 00000000

Hitbox property mod engine
* C273FA3C 00000019
* 3C008180 80FC0028
* 81070008 8108FFFC
* 7C080000 408000A8
* 81080030 80DE0020
* 5106C00E 801E0000
* 5006821E 801E0018
* 5006442E 80E7007C
* 80E70038 813E0030
* 5127C0CE 801E0014
* 50076226 390204C8
* 85480018 81680004
* 7D405B79 41820060
* 7C0A3000 4082FFEC
* 7C0B3800 4082FFE4
* 88080008 90030004
* 88080009 9003001C
* 8808000A 90030024
* 8808000B 500906FE
* 91230034 A008000C
* 90030018 80080010
* 2C00FFFF 41820008
* 90030038 C0080014
* C03E0010 EC010032
* D0030014 7F83E378
* 60000000 00000000

Frame Speed Modifier Data
* 065AB1C0 00000070
* 071F8073 3F000000
* 0700003B 3FAAAAAB
* 08190112 40000000
* 091E0029 3F000000
* 1300003B 3FAAAAAB
* 141E0029 3F000000
* 0F0C8070 3F000000
* 1A13001E 40000000
* 1F2D0114 3DCCCCCD
* 2000003B 3FAAAAAB
* 2201011C 40000000
* FF000040 3FAAAAAB
* FF000041 3FD55555
* FF0E0054 40A00000

Hitbox Property Mod Data
* 065AB5C0 00001578
* 000F4928 0016902F
* 0F532F00 01690000
* FFFFFFFF 3F800000
* 000C4B23 0016902F
* 0C562A00 01690000
* FFFFFFFF 3F800000
* 00055014 00050029
* 06504400 00640000
* FFFFFFFF 3F800000
* 00075014 00050029
* 07504400 00640000
* FFFFFFFF 3F800000
* 000D4B14 00118033
* 0D4B4600 01180000
* FFFFFFFF 3F800000
* 000E5A20 00053032
* 0E642000 00530000
* FFFFFFFF 3F800000
* 6405191E 05169000
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* FFFFFFFF 3F800000
* 64051416 05169000
* 06141605 01690000
* FFFFFFFF 3F800000
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* FFFFFFFF 3F800000
* 020D6014 02169027
* 0D651402 01690000
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* 020C325A 02050029
* 0C425A02 00500000
* FFFFFFFF 3F800000
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* 0B502800 00320000
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Tripping rate mod
* 04817B68 C0220020
* 045AB110 00000000

Infinite replays
* 040ED354 60000000

Conditional Action Modifier
* C277A780 0000000E
* 2C030000 41820060
* 3C008180 80BF0008
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* 939E0038 00000000

CAM data
* 065AAEE8 00000050
* 0400011A 00100073
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* 1F000114 0010000F
* 2200011C 0010000F
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* FF000071 004A0016
* FF0000B6 00BB00BC
* FF0000B7 00BB00BC
* FF0000B9 00BB00BC
* FF00008D 008A008E
 

MK26

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Messages
4,450
Location
http://www.mediafire.com/?zj2oddmz0yy for ZSS fix!
A2Z, most of our changes aren't really doable at the moment. Most throws can't be changed yet
Well...technically, they can, but the WBR hasn't released the code yet. Just like they did with the hitbox size modifier. Why do these codes have to be kept private until a release in a Plussery set?

Also, Bbrawl is a Brawl hack. Brawl+ is a Brawl hack. However, bBrawl is not Brawl+. And Big O, would you mind using
Code:
 tags?
 

fromundaman

Henshin a go-go Baby!
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Miamisburg, OH
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Fromundaman
3DS FC
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Also I'm just nitpicking, but I can't see how the change to Sonic's Up-B is a game changer. His Up-B is easily outprioritized by many attacks, so most characters can just Up-B right through it.
I haven't played this myself, but ITT (A sonic main, who in fact has one of the best tourny records to date) was telling me it completely counters Sonic's need to kill, since it gives him a completely safe projectile spike. A weak spike, but it's still a projectile spike. He no longer NEEDS KO moves with that.
 

Big O

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Well...technically, they can, but the WBR hasn't released the code yet. Just like they did with the hitbox size modifier. Why do these codes have to be kept private until a release in a Plussery set?

Also, Bbrawl is a Brawl hack. Brawl+ is a Brawl hack. However, bBrawl is not Brawl+. And Big O, would you mind using
Code:
 tags?[/QUOTE]

Lol I'm kind of embarrassed to say this but how do I do that exactly? I always wondered how they made it fit in a small little box.

Knowing that the code actually exists is reassuring though. I assume it's not out yet because it is being debugged/tweaked further?

EDIT: Thanks betterthanbonds9.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
1. it cost me a lot of time making the throw mod, and people telling me I SHOULD release it are just morons. I might just as well not release it at all since B+ can live without it.
2. what better way to release a code than with a codeset? if I released the throw mod now, people wouldn't even be able to use it since there still is barely any data to modify.

also kupo, wth is up with your attitude? you didn't expect to be kicked out or something?

also whoever said that kupo's set is B+ is wrong. there is 1 official build, not more. kupo's set would at best be described as a nightly build.
 

Linkshot

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Messages
5,236
Location
Hermit in the Highrise
Paprika, just to clarify, you have a working codeset that modifies the properties of throws, right?

If you do, withholding it from use of BBrawl would be quite, well, evil.
 

TreK

Is "that guy"
Joined
Aug 27, 2008
Messages
2,960
Location
France
Here is the PAL set. I just copy pasted this from AA's post. These are the codes so just copy paste this into notepad and use that to make your own GCT with code manager or whatever program you use. AA mentioned that the stage boundary mods are missing in this too just fyi.

Code:
[/QUOTE]

Isn't it the one that freezes your wii ? Gonna test it anyway :V
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I don't.

maybe shanus made a set with the beta version I gave him, but I doubt it.
 

Thinkaman

Moderator
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Just saying...

Ganondorf and G&W need a few more tricks.
Ganondorf, always.

Mr. Game & Watch, never.

Ganondorf needs one aerial besides his D-air that can be used to hit people under him.
Like down-b, which annihilates shields and has a finishing clearing hitbox?

He needs something like the lag of N-air reduced so it is relatively safe on block just so that it isn't a simple deal of shieldcamping and spotdodging him to death.
Ganondorf has been dealing with shields somewhat easily since the dawn of time. Ganon's problem is that everyone in the game attacks faster than him.

Ganondorf's B-throw needs to be able to kill before 180%. His D-throw and U-throw just need to be plain better, they do mediocre damage and have little setup value. His U-throw sends people way too high, but never kills. His D-throw sends people too far away from him to easily set up. Something there needs to be changed, considering how difficult it is for Ganondorf to grab in the first place anyway.
First, Ganon's grab is his fastest ground move and faster than most characters.

Second, u-throw does suck. However, a lot of Ganon players use d-throw to great effect. B-throw is for off-stage positioning, which Ganon and his trusty uair like.

G&W needs better close up options, since all of his attacks are on the slow side and have less range than someone like Marth. D-smash should be frame 10 (the same frame as the 2nd hit of MK's D-smash), spotdodge should be a bit faster, Up-B should be invincible starting frame 1. Or if you don't give him that, at least make his D-throw better, like more damaging, or untechable.
Are you... serious? Like, I hope I'm not being rude, but these are the sort of suggestions people make sarcastically. Ampharos then chimes in and says "Yeah, and the turtle should do 10% per hit" and I add "Rest's hitbox should be the size of the stage too" and someone in the back says "Oooh, and DDD should have an infinite on everyone! And ICs u-smash should be buffed!" and we laugh and laugh and laugh. Oh, the fun.

Other things that I can think of off the top of my head that needed balancing:

Mario's B-throw needs to have more knockback (like Luigi's).
This is a good fit for Mario and something Ampharos has wanted to do since the dawn of time. Sadly, we can't change throws.

ROB needs something besides U-air that does good damage.
Kirby and Fox, like Luigi, suffer from the huge problem of approaching and not having a good camping to compensate.
ROB needs something that does good damage? Damage is all ROB does!

Kirby's bair and floatiness makes him moderately able to pressure shields. If I can't shieldgrab it with Jigglypuff, I expect no one but Charizard and Dedede to.

Fox I have no idea what you are talking about. Fox can camp and approach just fine, even if he has nothing on Falcon in either department.

Also I'm just nitpicking, but I can't see how the change to Sonic's Up-B is a game changer. His Up-B is easily outprioritized by many attacks, so most characters can just Up-B right through it.
...and otherwise it would be broken. Play with Sonic some. I get about one out of five KOs with Sonic as spring gimps now, though it varies by matchup.

I'd suggest having Samus kill reliably at around 140%, seeing as she can't rack up damage quite as fast as Sonic (actually, she's just not as fast as Sonic, period).
Samus killing "reliably" at 140% is not Samus, unless you have a more liberal definition of what attacks constitute "reliable". If Samsu wants to kill early, she is going to need a f-smash, charge shot, dair spike, or well-placed super missile.

I'm okay with Samus having trouble close-range; it defines her.

I, personally, would give the Super Missiles the gimping power of ROB's laser. Super Missiles are harder to land with little reward. Harshly lower KBG and greatly buff the BKB (unless they already gimp well).

All-in-all, Samus is famous for shooting crap at people. I'd focus on making Bomb and Screw Attack her gtfo moves. Higher BKB on Bomb should be interesting without causing major changes.

Although, this all depends on where she stands right now. I feel bad for not being able to try this out yet.
Your suggested change for super missiles is the exact opposite of what you just said about making her more reliable. Higher growth (and less base if you must) is what makes kill moves more reliable.

Samus's Super Missiles are by default, actually almost identical to ROB's laser. They do 1 more damage and a tad less knockback on average, both barely noticeable.

Good reading for those interested in how to go about balancing a game: http://www.sirlin.net/articles/street-fighter-hd-remix-design-overview.html
Heh... In our very first conversation about this project, in a car ride on the way back from that circuit event, me and Ampharos talked about these HDR changes as examples.

I've always liked Sirlin, beyond the scope of PtW being considered public fashion. I had a good time talking to him at GDC, and his card game is well-developed for anyone who hasn't played it. He is an excellent writer and probably deserves more credit that anyone else for this project.
 

Eyada

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
186
Location
Utah
All of this arguing needs to stop.

Everyone who supports BBrawl is grateful (or should be, if they aren't) to the Brawl+ community for all of your hard work; without your dedication, BBrawl couldn't even exist.

paprika killer, forgive me if I'm wrong, but it seems that you have been offended by Thinkaman or AA due to their code attributions. (Or lack thereof?) If that's the case, then I'm sure having a discussion with them can easily set things right. I very much doubt that they purposefully slighted or undermined anyone in the Brawl+ community when they were putting BBrawl together. If a misunderstanding has occurred, I'm sure amends can be made.

So again, please, let's stop all of the argument and petty attacks. There is no reason for animosity, and nothing good can come of it. We're all here because we love Smash and we want Brawl to be better; there's no need to hate one another.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
the only problem is that tinkaman and AA removed all code specifick credit and changed all the names.
so far I have NEVER seen that.

seriously just fix it guys.
 

Linkshot

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Messages
5,236
Location
Hermit in the Highrise
Ah, sorry for the misunderstanding. "Reliable kill" is basically a single attack she can pull out from practical location to finish a stock, as opposed to "gimping" which ends it earlier than what she should be killing at (140% imo).

I'll actually just nod and smile until I can get evidence and/or start participating in the project x.x Sorry for any shortsightedness I had/have. I just love this concept so much and am far to eager to help out.
 

Sterowent

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 10, 2008
Messages
648
Location
Southgate, MI
hey, this is interesting.

another brawl project! likin this. not too happy with the lack of author labels, but that shouldn't be too tough to type up, eh?

brawl with the core 'strategy/mindgames heavy' thing that comes with no hitstun. i've always Wanted to like brawl more, but there was that (lesser) balance that held me back.

went to b+ because i looked for this, found an awesome game nevermind balance even though there's plenty of that. now there's another project, and brawl's getting some needed tweaking as well. maybe i should buy another sd...

while there'll certainly be some resistance, this should be a smidgen easier to promote though maybe needing more incentive than b+ since it's not as far away from the original. nevertheless, i await to see what happens! especially with MK, hah. oi, he's going to be somethin to deal with...(edit: people will always argue as to how balanced he is. if no major game-changers are added for him, it's going to be an ongoing process for 'true' mk balance)
 

fromundaman

Henshin a go-go Baby!
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Fromundaman
3DS FC
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First, Ganon's grab is his fastest ground move and faster than most characters.

Kirby's bair and floatiness makes him moderately able to pressure shields. If I can't shieldgrab it with Jigglypuff, I expect no one but Charizard and Dedede to.
Ganon's grab is indeed fast, but it's range is absolute garbage unless pivoted (unless that got changed in BBrawl, which I sadly don't have a working Wii to try it out on atm.).

Also, Kirby is okay at shield-pressuring, but his point was about approaches, which Kirby has trouble doing.
That being said, I don't actually think Kirby needs changes, but since I haven't played BBrawl, maybe he would considering the changes to other characters.
 

Thinkaman

Moderator
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Thinkaman
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1504-5749-3616
the only problem is that tinkaman and AA removed all code specifick credit and changed all the names.
so far I have NEVER seen that.

seriously just fix it guys.
I'll have Ampharos edit the post whenever he gets on, if that will make everyone a loving and happy family again. Picnic baskets are on me.
 

Eldiran

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 8, 2008
Messages
1,707
Location
Pennsylvania
Ganon's grab is indeed fast, but it's range is absolute garbage unless pivoted (unless that got changed in BBrawl, which I sadly don't have a working Wii to try it out on atm.).
It didn't -- but, they did make Ganondorf's pummel do 5% (!), so I think Ganon's grabs should be okay for racking up some extra damage at least.
 

Thinkaman

Moderator
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Joined
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Messages
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Madison, WI
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Thinkaman
3DS FC
1504-5749-3616
It didn't -- but, they did make Ganondorf's pummel do 5% (!), so I think Ganon's grabs should be okay for racking up some extra damage at least.
Two pummels and an f-throw is almost 25%.

EDIT: Also, if you pummel once and they escape, you still did more damage than any Marth throw.
 

kupo15

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
7,002
Location
Playing Melee
I guess they are getting closer to figuring out how to modify throws...until then, we'll just plug our ears :p
Paprika, just to clarify, you have a working codeset that modifies the properties of throws, right?

If you do, withholding it from use of BBrawl would be quite, well, evil.
Yes. The throw mod is made and it works. I read in the WBR that shanus got it to work. You would probably need data for it but the engine very much works
also kupo, wth is up with your attitude? you didn't expect to be kicked out or something?
I did expect to get kicked out eventually. But actually, seeing how the past month my attitude has been more reserved with canceling my set and just being helpful with info to the plussery, I was a little surprised to see myself get kicked out. There must have just been some people holding a vendetta against me and wanted me out just because. Not sure why the Kishes are still back there. When was the last time they were active?
 

Thinkaman

Moderator
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Madison, WI
NNID
Thinkaman
3DS FC
1504-5749-3616
Yes. The throw mod is made and it works. I read in the WBR that shanus got it to work. You would probably need data for it but the engine very much works
I'm just throwing out there that I would stay up all night gathering data for every throw in the game if this actually existed.
 

Pierce7d

Wise Hermit
Joined
Dec 20, 2006
Messages
6,289
Location
Teaneck, North Bergen County, NJ, USA
3DS FC
1993-9028-0439
Falcon still sucks. Also, he can chaingrab Bowser (fthrow-fthrow, etc)

I almost didn't want to tell you this, but Mario's jab still wall locks. considering Usmash's buff, it's even worse now, since Mario can kill more reliably before his opponent escapes. Mario is high tier otherwise, and well balanced.

Lucario needs a slight buff. Fair and dtilt + 1 perhaps. It helps take off Marth's overwhelming edge.

Samus fsmash or charge shot + 1 more

I'm loving the new Link.

I'm suggesting to nerf Olimar's pummel. It will help ruin his inside game, which plays more into Olimar, and helps people actually do work when they get in. The first hit should be almost completely ineffective IMO.

And Ganon's jab needs more BKB. His Fair needs another +2 as well (seriously, this move needs to win when you connect. It's bad.)
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
If you do remove IC' infinites, what do you plan on giving them in return?
 

A2ZOMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Oct 13, 2007
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A2ZOMG
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SW 8400 1713 9427
Ganondorf, always.

Mr. Game & Watch, never.
G&W isn't broken at all.

Like down-b, which annihilates shields and has a finishing clearing hitbox?
Doesn't stop a good player from having a full shield and punishing. And besides, it's laggy enough to the point where you don't want to randomly throw it out in the first place.

Ganondorf has been dealing with shields somewhat easily since the dawn of time. Ganon's problem is that everyone in the game attacks faster than him.
My god, you don't know what you're talking about. The whole REASON why Ganondorf is so godforsakenly difficult to use is his predictability due to having nothing good on shields. His ONE move that is okish on shields can be spotdodged or grabbed fairly easily.


First, Ganon's grab is his fastest ground move and faster than most characters.
7-8 frame grab is NOT fast. Most characters have a 6-7 frame grab. His dashgrab is 11-12, which is also slow (average Dashgrab is 10-11). Jesus christ, why the hell do people keep saying this? GANON'S GRAB IS THE WORST ONE IN THE ENTIRE GAME DUDE. <_<

Second, u-throw does suck. However, a lot of Ganon players use d-throw to great effect. B-throw is for off-stage positioning, which Ganon and his trusty uair like.
D-throw still sucks. b-throw sucks at offstage positioning on anyone that can DI, and IS in fact better for KOs (and it sucks at that). Trust me, I'm a Ganon user.


Are you... serious? Like, I hope I'm not being rude, but these are the sort of suggestions people make sarcastically. Ampharos then chimes in and says "Yeah, and the turtle should do 10% per hit" and I add "Rest's hitbox should be the size of the stage too" and someone in the back says "Oooh, and DDD should have an infinite on everyone! And ICs u-smash should be buffed!" and we laugh and laugh and laugh. Oh, the fun.
No, I'm being quite serious. The buffs I'm giving him don't make him better than Diddy Kong. They just give him an option he needs in nightmare matchups. I'm not suggesting that we make it easy for G&W to get inside people's range. We just need to make it more rewarding for him so that he can survive versus Marth, Metaknight, and maybe a few other people.

ROB needs something that does good damage? Damage is all ROB does!
If ROB did more damage on certain attacks, he would be less forced to use kill moves to deal damage, and every bit helps. Currently ROB has a major problem in several matchups since his damage output is so low that he can't even get his opponent into KO range.

Kirby's bair and floatiness makes him moderately able to pressure shields. If I can't shieldgrab it with Jigglypuff, I expect no one but Charizard and Dedede to.
Play against a good Marth or G&W and come back to me. This is where Kirby has ridiculous problems that need to be solved.

Fox I have no idea what you are talking about. Fox can camp and approach just fine, even if he has nothing on Falcon in either department.
Fox was quite terrible in Brawl. He has nothing safe on block, and his defensive game is poor and limited outside of spamming 1-2 lasers before the opponent gets in range. And all his aerials are horrible on shields. Not helping that he's super light, and not that good at recovery.

...and otherwise it would be broken. Play with Sonic some. I get about one out of five KOs with Sonic as spring gimps now, though it varies by matchup.
When you get spring gimped in general, it's because it interrupted what you were doing, RARELY because of the angle at all.

If anything the change looks pretty minor because the characters you want to be gimping are hardly affected by this (and I mean matchups that are problems for Sonic). The only characters I can see this having a real affect on are Ganondorf, Link, Captain Falcon, Donkey Kong, and Bowser, who already were gimped sorta hard by the Spring in Brawl anyway. If anything, the damage increases Sonic has on staple attacks make a MUCH bigger difference.
 

Thinkaman

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Guys, we have an updated file made that will be playable at Genesis thanks to Stealth Raptor. The Genesis Edition file will be made available tomorrow.

Falcon still sucks. Also, he can chaingrab Bowser (fthrow-fthrow, etc)

I almost didn't want to tell you this, but Mario's jab still wall locks. considering Usmash's buff, it's even worse now, since Mario can kill more reliably before his opponent escapes. Mario is high tier otherwise, and well balanced.

Lucario needs a slight buff. Fair and dtilt + 1 perhaps. It helps take off Marth's overwhelming edge.

Samus fsmash or charge shot + 1 more

I'm loving the new Link.

I'm suggesting to nerf Olimar's pummel. It will help ruin his inside game, which plays more into Olimar, and helps people actually do work when they get in. The first hit should be almost completely ineffective IMO.

And Ganon's jab needs more BKB. His Fair needs another +2 as well (seriously, this move needs to win when you connect. It's bad.)
Falcon and Samus are only getting small buffs due to lack of matchup data. We are serious about improving them further, though.

Lucario is getting +1% on most his ground moveset. It's a nice boost for him, sort of recalibrates Lucario for a universe where most people kill a wee bit sooner.

Olimar isn't going to get nerfed anytime soon. Olimar is being affected more than most characters by the buffs other characters are getting... In fact, to even things out, Olimar himself is also getting a small buff to up-b, to help a bit against floaty character... (Pesky foes like Peach who refuse to get grabbed!)

Ganon has meaningful buffs, but nothing that will push him to the top.

I look forward to posting the update.
 

Big O

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Guys, we have an updated file made that will be playable at Genesis thanks to Stealth Raptor. The Genesis Edition file will be made available tomorrow.
Nice! Yet another reason why my trip to Genesis will be epic.
 

Eyada

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Fox was quite terrible in Brawl. He has nothing safe on block, and his defensive game is poor and limited outside of spamming 1-2 lasers before the opponent gets in range. And all his aerials are horrible on shields. Not helping that he's super light, and not that good at recovery.
I can't comment on anything else, but this is wrong. Fox is just difficult to use properly; he isn't a bad character. He doesn't have any blatantly obvious "LOL Spam me!" approaches (like G&W's Turtle, for example), but he has excellent mobility for superb cross-ups (both aerial and ground-based) and he has plenty of effective mix-ups. He just has a steep learning curve, so most people think he sucks; however, he is really quite competent. (To be fair though, he is not viable in vBrawl, but it's because of the Death locks, not a lack of good approach options.)

What's more, he does have moves that are safe on block. (Except against D3 and tether grabs, but Fox handles D3 well anyway and Fox does have some safe-on-block strings against tether grabbers.)

-SH Fair is safe on block. You can just hover backwards to avoid retaliation. This one is safe on D3 if you do it right.
-Spaced Nair is safe on block against non-tethers/D3. If it hits a shield (spaced properly) it pushes them back far enough that they can't shield-grab Fox. Most people don't know that so they try to grab anyway and it gives Fox a free punishment opportunity.
-SH Shine into buffer SH Shine on top of shield is safe on block. Landing afterwards should either be a cross-up to avoid shield grab or an auto-canceled Nair into Jab. (See next point.)
-SH Shine into auto-canceled Nair into Jab is safe on block. (Properly timed Nair into Jab true combos and beats out grabs.)
-Blatantly doing an auto-canceled Nair into jab on shield against tether grabbers (and Zelda, lol) is safe. The Jab beats out tether shield-grab attempts through sheer speed. If they catch on just mix it up, go for a grab. (Preferably a ground cross-up via a Boosted Pivot Wave Grab. It's harder to punish if the grab misses due to the extremely sexy distance that Fox slides during a PWG.)

By and large though, Fox is best off not mindlessly trying to attack the front of shields. Either laser camping and pressuring to force mistakes (which you then punish) or cross-ups are preferred. (I can't stress the cross-ups enough. Fox's cross-up game is fantastic.) When approaching, Fox requires a large number of mix-ups and the tricks I described above. He can't just mindlessly Dair shields all day and expect to get anywhere.

So, basically, you're wrong. Fox doesn't suck, and he has plenty of options. They just aren't readily apparent and Fox isn't an easy character to use well.
 

Big O

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Is there any real difference between an attack that has fire, electric, darkness, coin (is this an element I vaguely remember seeing this somewhere before), and other elements from regular attacks? I know fire and electric attacks don't hurt red and yellow pikmin but do they have other effects as well or is it just merely for show? I'd also like to know if there are drawbacks to adding certain elements. Ganondorf with some darkness on his Fair would look really nice.
 

Thinkaman

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Is there any real difference between an attack that has fire, electric, darkness, coin (is this an element I vaguely remember seeing this somewhere before), and other elements from regular attacks? I know fire and electric attacks don't hurt red and yellow pikmin but do they have other effects as well or is it just merely for show? I'd also like to know if there are drawbacks to adding certain elements. Ganondorf with some darkness on his Fair would look really nice.
Won't anybody think of the Pokemon? :p
 
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