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Balanced Brawl Public Preview *GENESIS UPDATE*

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Amazing Ampharos

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The Genesis edition was honestly thrown together rather quickly so we could put our best foot forward for it. Those other codes you list as well as some changes like unpunishable Kirby Swallow (though I haven't personally verified it to be punishable) and DK cargo fix (that is, preventing him from being punished when they break out of it) that were just overlooked.

As per Lucario, we realize that the included moves range across the quality spectrum from the amazing (fsmash) to the near useless (dash attack). It's certainly not our expectation that all six (yes six!) buffs Lucario got are of equal value, but we leave it as an exercise to the Lucario players to use what they like best.
 

Anomilus

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...You guys absolutely sure you don't want Ivysaur to have the flower element in any of his attacks...? ;_;


Well looks like I need to get some more people to play me with this codeset. I'll definitely be giving Lucario a try. I did kind of avoid him previously due to having no changes. But FIRST I gotta see if I can get my own music onto Brawl using Phantom Wings's new File Change code. :o

....

*mopes*
 

Rykoshet

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Too bad none of those codes exist on your list since you changed all the names. Change them back. C'mon it shouldn't be this hard to get this right.
Theyre not going to, they are crediting the creators though, shut up already.

Yes I get you're trolling, no I don't care.
 

YagamiLight

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Did you guys mean to make all of Ike's throws do +1 damage? The changelog says it was only meant for Fthrow/Bthrow. Not that I'm complaining or anything. Ike is really nice now.
 
D

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hm after actually looking at the change of the names, that's not really what I expected. seriously you guys are the ONLY people I have EVER seen change the names of codes? why are you so hestiant of using the common format?
 

Amazing Ampharos

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I just want the names to make as much sense to me as possible when I'm looking at them in the code manager. Having the credit there in particular makes it really long, and the names I put in make more sense to me (it's subjective). Like I said, if this is legitimately important to you, I'll change it, but I'd prefer not to. It's not an attempt to obscure credit or anything like that; it's just me wanting to format things in the way that makes the most sense to me which makes it the easiest for me to work with.

To be honest, as the issue is pressed, I just remembered why I originally changed the names of a bunch of codes internally. I read over them in other venues and had no idea at all what they actually did and had to actually use them to figure it out. Of course, it has a lot to do with how I read things. Like, I read "Conditional Action Modifier" as a modifier of "conditional actions" with no idea what a "conditional action" was. I made the name to reflect, in my mind, the more accurate statement that you're just modifying the condition a character is in (like helpless falling). All of them are really the same case. To me, the names I applied are more descriptive of the function of the codes.

This is really a trivial issue (and, contrary to a certain element of the peanut gallery, not really related to giving credit, which we are readily giving), but all else being equal I'd prefer to not change it so I'm trying to figure out where you stand. If it's legitimately important to you, I can change it. I'm not really looking to offend anyone over something like this. If you are just commenting on it being strange, well, aren't we all allowed our own quirks?

I hope you understand why things have happened the way they have on this issue, and hopefully it will be easy for you to make clear to me your perspective on it so we can proceed in the way that maximizes everyone's happiness here.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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The principle is "few" as opposed to "none". We felt as though Zelda's ridiculously limited ability to make safe attacks justified this rare case.
 
D

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it is conditional as in the previous action being a condition to have took place before the current should be replaced.

this as opposed to the original action modifier, which switched the action regards less of what happened before it.

furthermore, crediting people for a certain code that has a different name in the actual set is something that will only confuse other people. if it is really that confusing, you can just have your private set have it's own name, while the one you publish here has the actuall names.

you can call this whole thing trivial but you are going against the way everybody so far handles code names and credit. if you were on the wiird forums you would have been banned by now, just saying.
 

PKNintendo

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Wow, good job Amazing A and Thinkaman.

Brilliant. I especially love the Ness updates. PK Fire is a brilliant move now, and i believe PK Flash kills at unbelievably low percentages.

The main thing that interests me is the grab release animation has been fixed. Kudos.
 

zxeon

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The names do matter they aren't personal preference and no my avatar will not smile ever (unless I change it) because I am always angry about something. Just change the names back
 

Mit

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Just curious, what exactly was the "GENESIS UPDATE"? I searched around the first post and didn't see any mention of the word, nor did I see any mention of the Genesis tournament, which I assumed it was referring to :p

On the topic of changing code names, what if they just included the original code name in the credits for the code? I also seem to think it's a bit trivial. If he changes the names around to make it easier for him to work with his own project, I don't see the issue, especially when he's still giving credit. I think including the original name within the credits would be a good solution.
 

Thinkaman

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Why a frame reduction on Zelda's f-tilt, I thought you said you werent or at least trying no to do such things?
Zelda had to have something to deal with a shielding opponent; she has the worst grabs in the game, and no attacks that could be effectively used to pressure a shield. No hitbox buffs could change that fact, so Zelda had to receive a fundamental change. I tested multiple thigns to make sure it counted, and we only needed on timing change.

Just curious, what exactly was the "GENESIS UPDATE"? I searched around the first post and didn't see any mention of the word, nor did I see any mention of the Genesis tournament, which I assumed it was referring to :p
I posted the changelog on the previous page. (For my page length settings, at least.)
 
D

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zxeon, please stop. I can handle this.

mit, I don't know you but I have a strong feeling that you are new to the whole hacking scene. no offense meant, but this is someting between me and AA/tinkaman.
and I could easily turn the "it's trivial" argument around saying that if it is that trivial to you why would you care not to just change it?

also you can just keep a notepad file somewhere containing the code name, a description and possibily a syntax of the code.
 

MK26

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http://www.mediafire.com/?zj2oddmz0yy for ZSS fix!
Those other codes you list as well as some changes like unpunishable Kirby Swallow (though I haven't personally verified it to be punishable)
Check out the Kirby board some time.
ok, thanks to sasukebowser, I tested what moves can hit Kirby immediately out of Inhale->Copy...it was on wifi, but the testing is still valid, since Kirby's shield is buffered anyway.

Note that all characters can hit Kirby after he uses copy if they have an item in hand, by throwing it down immediately after.

Bowser: Nothing

Captain Falcon: Down B

Diddy Kong: Up B, item

Donkey Kong: Nothing

Falco: Nothing

Fox: Down B

Game and Watch: Down Air

Ganondorf: Down B

Ice Climbers: Down Air

Ike: POSSIBLY Up B, I didn't manage to pull it off, but with some kind of funky B-reversal, it may be possible.


Jigglypuff: Nothing

King Dedede: Nothing

Kirby: Nothing (Stone almost does it though)

Link: Item


Lucario: Down Air

Lucas: First hit of Down Air, Down B (with reversal, very difficult to do), PK Thunder doesn't quite hit, but can have interesting results


Luigi: Nothing

Mario: Nothing

Marth: Nothing

Meta Knight: Down Air

Ness: Nothing

Olimar: Nothing

Peach: Float-cancel to Down Air...very difficult to do, I never pulled it off, but my testing partner did a couple times

Pikachu: Nothing

Pit: Nothing

Pokemon Trainer-
Charizard: Nothing
Ivysaur: Down Air
Squirtle: Up B with funky B-reversal action


ROB: Down Air


Samus: Nothing

Sheik: Down Air

Snake: First hit of Down Air

Sonic: Up B, Down Air

Toon Link: Down Air, item
-Note that Down Air will most likely hit you twice for a lot of damage, if you are at a fairly low percent


Wario: Possibly fully charged Down B (not tested, but a half-charged Fart missed)

Wolf: Nothing

Yoshi: Down B

Zelda: Nothing, Neutral B is close though

Zero Suit Samus: Down Air, item


So there you have it. I'm sure some of this comes as a surprise to most of you, especially Snake's Down Air o_O


hm after actually looking at the change of the names, that's not really what I expected. seriously you guys are the ONLY people I have EVER seen change the names of codes? why are you so hestiant of using the common format?
I've done that too, but not in the same way (such as changing "Jump/Grav Values" to "Jump & Grav Values Mod Engine"). The difference is that I've actively searched for the authors of codes, even though I never found out who wrote the Default Settings Modifier or the one-line Infinite Replays code (or what the Launch Power Modifier does, but that's a different story...)
 

Brinzy

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Rather than suggesting to someone to go to every single character board to pick up every single fact, why don't you simply tell them what the deal is and make stuff efficient?


I reviewed that Zelda, and if the ftilt works as advertised, I may just say that she's a decent character now, which is perfect because she also has Sheik.
 

Adapt

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What exactly did you do to remove the ZSS fthrow chain?

Also, Zelda and sheik seem better for sure. have yet to really test any of the other changes
 

Amazing Ampharos

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I really can't understand what your objection to the style of formatting I was using was, but it seems to mean a whole lot to you so I've included a version that follows your formatting style as an option. People can use whatever they want. Regardless, this whole controversy is a massive derailment from what is really the main focus here, and that's the design ideas. Hopefully this should end it.

We ended up just having to implement slowdowns to throws (including ZSS's fthrow) to end chaingrabs that were just too bad (low distance chaingrabs that only work on guys like Bowser and don't go over 50%, like Ike's and Pit's, are known and not planned to be removed at this time). We definitely intend to remove most of those with the release of a throw modifier code, but in the meantime, we are just minimizing damage.
 

zxeon

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I really can't understand what your objection to the style of formatting I was using was, but it seems to mean a whole lot to you so I've included a version that follows your formatting style as an option. People can use whatever they want. Regardless, this whole controversy is a massive derailment from what is really the main focus here, and that's the design ideas. Hopefully this should end it.
Good but you got the labeling backwards.

A lot of people that post in the workshop are already familiar with the codes you use and if you change the names of the codes you can't tell what code it is at a glance. it's holding you back to go against the established standard. Having to explain to everyone what codes you are using every time they ask is gonna get old. By using the original names you avoid any confusion.
 

bobson

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What's the problem inherent with freezing stages? It seems like an arbitrary exclusion, especially when one of your goals is to increase stage viability. Wario Ware can be a great neutral when frozen, although a code that just gets rid of the random rewards and leaves the stage as-is would be optimal.
 

Rykoshet

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What's the problem inherent with freezing stages? It seems like an arbitrary exclusion, especially when one of your goals is to increase stage viability. Wario Ware can be a great neutral when frozen, although a code that just gets rid of the random rewards and leaves the stage as-is would be optimal.
I'm gonna agree, whilke I like mansion regardless of lameness, freezing deadlands and wario ware would give 2 extra neutrals and furthermore increase stage viability.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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In the midst of actually making this update, we forgot to do the hype thing!

Stealth Raptor is bringing Bbrawl to Genesis, and he'll be using this version. This version incorporates both internal testing and user feedback to put forth the absolute best for such a major crowd. Hopefully it will make a positive impression, and even more hopefully such an event will provide the data we need to bring something even better in the upcoming standard release.

We already have tons of starter stages and don't need more really (if you can't find 9 starter stages out of those 11 that you think are good, you're probably being a bit too stiff), especially not at the sacrifice of Luigi's Mansion which is a valid counterpick stage. For WarioWare, I really am holding out for better codes here mostly because of that desire to keep what makes it special. It could be made better than it is now and be an alright starter if we just froze it, but if we hold out for the ability to alter prizes, it could be an AMAZING counterpick. The main reason I haven't just gone with what is best for now is politics to be honest; I bet people would complain a lot if a change in Bbrawl made a starter into a counterpick even if it would be what's best in terms of game design.

Also, it wasn't mentioned, but the water changes are reverted in the Genesis build. Expect to see more water mechanics work in the future, but for now this is how it is. Obviously Pirate Ship goes to recommended Banned this way though...
 

Amazing Ampharos

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Let me put it this way. We're not in contact with the TOs of Genesis, and if they chose to last minute change which game they are playing, it would be shocking (I would not complain though!). It's more like it will be set up on the side, and to be really honest we're just hoping he manages to draw a crowd. Fingers crossed!
 

Rykoshet

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In the midst of actually making this update, we forgot to do the hype thing!

Stealth Raptor is bringing Bbrawl to Genesis, and he'll be using this version. This version incorporates both internal testing and user feedback to put forth the absolute best for such a major crowd. Hopefully it will make a positive impression, and even more hopefully such an event will provide the data we need to bring something even better in the upcoming standard release.

We already have tons of starter stages and don't need more really (if you can't find 9 starter stages out of those 11 that you think are good, you're probably being a bit too stiff), especially not at the sacrifice of Luigi's Mansion which is a valid counterpick stage. For WarioWare, I really am holding out for better codes here mostly because of that desire to keep what makes it special. It could be made better than it is now and be an alright starter if we just froze it, but if we hold out for the ability to alter prizes, it could be an AMAZING counterpick. The main reason I haven't just gone with what is best for now is politics to be honest; I bet people would complain a lot if a change in Bbrawl made a starter into a counterpick even if it would be what's best in terms of game design.

Also, it wasn't mentioned, but the water changes are reverted in the Genesis build. Expect to see more water mechanics work in the future, but for now this is how it is. Obviously Pirate Ship goes to recommended Banned this way though...
I'm sorry to burt your bubble but it was far more ban worthy as it was in bbrawl as opposed to being reverted. Keep the accumulating swim time but raise the jump time out of water to 10 frames if possible, if not then leave it as is because it'll be banned either way.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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I really don't want to get into a long argument over this, but virtually every matchup on Pirate Ship is completely broken by one side water stalling in standard Brawl. I don't really see how any mechanic that discourages being in the water, no matter how undesirable its side effects are, could make Pirate Ship a worse stage.
 

Mr. Escalator

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The water mechanic in the previous build of BBrawl obviously made Pirate Ship a fair stage, and reverting back means going back to a completely degenerate stage focused around who gets the lead and can camp the water better. I'll miss Pirate Ship being playable, but the old water mechanics are better with Delfino in mind.

I do hope you guys find ways to make Water Stalling less rewarding without making water itself the biggest hazard on that stage, as well as finding a way to alter Wario Ware's reward mechanic.

I am looking forward to the possibility of making Ice Climbers a balanced character if you guys do ever get your hands on the way to modify throws. As it stands, they still are pretty 'broken' for what you guys are trying to achieve, but being able to at least limit their CGs or take out the infinites and do your best on making them balanced would make the ICs an extremely interesting character.

Also, Port Town is a stage I would very much like to see be tweaked to make the cars a weaker hazard. I don't think it's unplayable in Brawl, but weakening the cars would probably get a lot more people willing to play it. Big Blue and MK-1 are pretty huge successes in my eyes. Excellent job Thinkaman, AmazingAmpharos.

I'll be uploading some BBrawl Team matches later if you guys care about footage still.
 

betterthanbonds9

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Not really, you can escape after the second one by shielding or dodging
a damage boost to Lucario's most used move is kinda insane imo. Honestly, why would you want to get rid of the combos at low percents? Fair isn't going to kill and giving it a damage boost can only hurt it's combo ability. Fsmash got the a boost, which should be plenty.

ftilt and dtilt are very good moves (especially ftilt for being near unpunishable and dtilt for zoning pretty well)

Only buff on lucario i can see is a better angle and less knockback on dtilt- to set up combos around 60% where other means are unavailable for a good fair setup.

The current damage boosts should be more than enough to wreck some havok.
 

daisho

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Just wondering, what were the matchups that you felt DK was having trouble with and why did you give DK a buff on his down B?

Seems pretty useless to me, Down B now does 15% instead of 14, DKs will use this in matches against characters who mainly approach from the ground (Snake ICs DDD) and against those matchups probably land it like 5 times a game if he is lucky. This probably won't help him get a kill ever.

I understand it was a small buff but in my opinion it is basically useless.

But i would like to understand your reasoning.


I think you should at least link the new update post (on page 107) to the OP so people aren't confused.

Also, what did you say about DKs cargo throw?
 

Eldiran

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Excellent! Encore on the new update. It looks like a good one.

I just hope I can convince my free-for-all-ing item-enabling friends to let me try it out while I play with 'em. I'll give in-depth reports on how this affects low-level play :p. (Not really, I assume that data isn't very useful.)

EDIT: Curious; what is "Hitbox testing"? I use other codes with these so I have to splice it all together. Judging by its length it seems important, so I will include it when I use it tomorrow, but I am still curious what it is. (Probably hit box data, but then I wonder why it's separated.)
 

#HBC | ZoZo

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Falco's throws are still bad.

Bthrow allows for a follow up except if they airdodge? ofcourse they will airdodge, and if they have even a little bit DI we can't properly follow.

I'll say it for the last time now, decrease Bthrow's knockback and make the lasers stop momentum, to allow for followups where airdodges are punishable.
 

daisho

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Falco's throws are still bad.

Bthrow allows for a follow up except if they airdodge? ofcourse they will airdodge, and if they have even a little bit DI we can't properly follow.

I'll say it for the last time now, decrease Bthrow's knockback and make the lasers stop momentum, to allow for followups where airdodges are punishable.
You can punish airdodges...
 

Arkaether

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AA, I think you're misunderstanding Paprika_Killer and zxeon. They're not trying to get the titles changed out of spite or because of some sort of OCD. What they're trying to do is to provide proper credits to the people involved.

The same idea applies everytime someone posts bbrawl with "credits to AA and Thinkaman for an incredible job". Imagine if instead of mentioning you, all references to your work was removed and people just posted "Bbrawl, a new project by some random people". Would you be happy that they failed to credit you and your hard-earned hundreds of hours of work? By providing names of the creators, you serve to give proper credit where proper credit is due, and pay respect to the people who made this possible and their hard work in doing so. I can assure you that P.W. invested quite a bit of time into all the work he has done making both Brawl+ and Bbrawl possible, and to fail to credit him undermines all the work he has done. I respect you and Thinkaman for your great job in creating Bbrawl, but I also respect the coders for the great work they have done in making it possible, so I wish for them to be credited as well.

As for the name-change, the names of the codes are important because they help to unify the community and provide a universal set of guidelines that help to organize the codes. If someone referred to "Balanced Brawl" as "Tournament Brawl" or "New Brawl" or "Changed Brawl" or "Uncheap Brawl", imagine the chaos that could result when you have 20 different names flying around all referring to the same thing. People would be confused at whether "New Brawl" refers to Bbrawl or Brawl+ or EXBrawl. By using the names that the creators have, you make sure that people know exactly what each code does and that there is no chaos as far as naming is concerned. I know some of them may be complex or not easily understandable, but by using "Conditional Action Modifier", there is only one possible code that could refer to, whereas "Modifies certain actions depending on circumstances" could refer to two or three codes. While it may help you because you know that only CAM is in Bbrawl, an outsider looking into Bbrawl might not know of it is the CAM or AM or GSM. By calling it the same thing as it has always been called, any outsider will automatically understand the specific functions and applications of the code and exactly which one it is. This is particularly important concerning that there are hundreds of codes available for Brawl, and it is very hard to distinguish between similar ones.

Lastly, there is nothing particularly wrong with changing the names to be more easily understandable, but please do realize that by releasing this to the public, you are creating a project for use by the community. If the community uses it, there needs to be proper organization and understanding involved. There is absolutely nothing wrong at all if you choose to use differing names for your own build, but names in the public build should be organized and properly referenced. Other people won't understand particularly well unless you go by what is generally accepted as the proper naming.
 
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