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Balanced Brawl Public Preview *GENESIS UPDATE*

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Rykoshet

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Colored shields would be nice. All in all I must agree with a lot of things MK26 said. Mostly it's me being bitter that my 2 best counterpicks on ike are easily 2 of my worst now. Trust me, I'm not the type who doest know my way around other stages, I exploit stages far more and better than large majority of players, with easily one of the best knowledge of every intricacy on each of them (I can 0% KO someone on frigate by using the stage flip mechanic and the shortened blast zones to my advantage by just knowing when to throw an up tilt and where based on my relative position to my opponent, for example) bt it's really harsh to see a stage I exploited to its full extent suddenly be closed off to me hard.
 

Steeler

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bullet seed should obviously plant a flower on the opponent

it makes perfect sense
 

Revven

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Okay I just FINALLY played this thing with people for a brief period of time tonight and here are my thoughtd (quickly summarized):

Hyrule Temple - Change it. For the love of God, go back to what it was, it's not good in this new form at all. I don't know if you guys knew or not but, you can stall below the walk-through platform near the stairs on the left side, the death boundary doesn't reach there. Meta Knight could keep Nairing the area and I could simply not do anything about it (yes I know it's NAIR but, if it was Uair, it'd be even WORSE). Take this for what you will but, it's not good in its current form at all.

Captain Falcon - Dtilt has some uses... mostly Dtilt > Falcon Kick... didn't see much else because frankly, it's quite too laggy to chase after someone when they roll out of the trip. FK is the quickest option, when they roll away at least (which technically IS their only option). I find it to be a problem when Yes! doesn't kill off the top at 51% on BRINSTAR despite its "buff". Dtilt helped a bit, and I guess Fair (trip) > Dtilt > FK could be a new combo but, aside from that... I don't see him jumping up spots, or at least very many spots with the current buffs in place. Especially when considering that umm... Nair is utter ****. Although, he did seem to do better against DDD because of the CG loss, I just wasn't ****** really like he can in +. =(

Ike - Frankly, I don't like Side B. It is not comparable to Pikachu Side B or Luigi Side B. You're buffing a weakness, which is strange, even when it DOES help him, I don't think it's the right way at all. In any case, the reason why I see it as ridick is because he can chase people offstage with it. Who else can do that with a special move that goes that far and that fast? (Again, Glides do not count) and while it may fit the theme of ridiculous recoveries in Brawl I find it too overwhelming simply because not only did you remove the fallspecial but, you also took away its wind-down from the slash part of it. Which could lead to legit "combos" offstage like QD > QD (slash) > jump > Fair and then Side B back and Up B. You can literally do that, and I find that insane, truly insane because Pikachu nor Luigi can do that yet you compared his Side B to them as though they are completely similar... recovery-wise yes, usefulness? No. Just my opinion, if you don't change it, fine, I just will not be happy with it. =\

DDD Uthrow - I honestly do not care if you can DI it, tech it, or whatever. If you can't fix DDD Dthrow right at the expense of Uthrow getting messed up, you just don't make the change and you give the reason why in the OP. It is soooooooooo ridiculous to see a Uthrow send down like that. I understand the limitations, it's not that I don't, it's that you shouldn't have done any throw changes until you could because doing something like fixing Dthrow just makes people think you can edit throws (as you have been seeing a lot in this thread). It is easily the most potent throw right now and I think that's ridiculous, pure ridiculousness. Especially if this beta were to ever be used in a tournament, a side event no less. People will pick DDD, it isn't hard to land that grab with him... and once he does, it's techchase time to whatever and get them to the ledge and edgeguard. Whoopee!... No, get rid of the Dthrow change until you can actually do it right or keep this and watch as it gets abused. =\

That's all who I touched and had the time to look at or played against (I played against DDD). It's small feedback and likely, I won't be giving much more feedback for awhile (due to low interest in this and I just kinda played it on a whim). Just my personal thoughts. Some of the BBrawl matches were recorded... I'll ask for a few of them and see if I can upload them to my account.
 

Thinkaman

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I did a lot of experiments on Big Blue today; it really is a great stage... never would have guessed.

Unrestricted camera codes I have no idea why they are missing. I've personally used them since them dawn of time.

I thought tags in replays was prone to glitches?
 

Big O

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DDD Uthrow - I honestly do not care if you can DI it, tech it, or whatever. If you can't fix DDD Dthrow right at the expense of Uthrow getting messed up, you just don't make the change and you give the reason why in the OP. It is soooooooooo ridiculous to see a Uthrow send down like that. I understand the limitations, it's not that I don't, it's that you shouldn't have done any throw changes until you could because doing something like fixing Dthrow just makes people think you can edit throws (as you have been seeing a lot in this thread). It is easily the most potent throw right now and I think that's ridiculous, pure ridiculousness. Especially if this beta were to ever be used in a tournament, a side event no less. People will pick DDD, it isn't hard to land that grab with him... and once he does, it's techchase time to whatever and get them to the ledge and edgeguard. Whoopee!... No, get rid of the Dthrow change until you can actually do it right or keep this and watch as it gets abused. =\
Well considering the alternative of keeping his Dthrow as is... I'm pretty sure as a DK main you know it would be the kiss of death and the goal of this is to get rid of those one-sided matches. The Uthrow may be glitchy but I think it is an understandable trade-off considering it has more utility than the old one and means no more Dthrow abuse.

I agree with you on Temple though especially since the lower left platform is an extremely good camping spot.
 

Rykoshet

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Ike's aerial QD slash does string into double jump fair at low % but whether or not it can be air dodged is not known to me just yet. I find QD, considering how very mind-game and not frame advantage based his entire moveset is otherwise perfectly fine. He still gets shut down by frame disadvantage and the fact that his fastest moves after frame 3 are a 2 frame 13 moves (one with considerable lag) and an autocanceling frame 14 move. I think as of now his QD connection animation may need to be raised slightly as it is currently too rewarding in my opinion but otherwise the recovery and usefulness is pretty much on point. The move is punishable though, don't think otherwise. I can shut down most ikes just based on the fact few are remotely as creative as myself and I see everything, including QD, coming from a mile way.
 

Revven

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Well considering the alternative of keeping his Dthrow as is... I'm pretty sure as a DK main you know it would be the kiss of death and the goal of this is to get rid of those one-sided matches. The Uthrow may be glitchy but I think it is an understandable trade-off considering it has more utility than the old one and means no more Dthrow abuse.

I agree with you on Temple though especially since the lower left platform is an extremely good camping spot.
Oh yeah, I'm thankful for a new match-up (though I had it in + anyway... lol... so I'm not really "new" to it per se but you get the idea) I just didn't use DK against DDD because DK didn't change at all so I used Falcon mostly (which STILL I don't think is quite up to snuff yet... sorry dudes).

As for temple, you can literally release grab someone for a kill right in that spot, I did it with Ike on the MK and... yeah, he died.
 

Thinkaman

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Hyrule Temple - Change it. For the love of God, go back to what it was, it's not good in this new form at all. I don't know if you guys knew or not but, you can stall below the walk-through platform near the stairs on the left side, the death boundary doesn't reach there. Meta Knight could keep Nairing the area and I could simply not do anything about it (yes I know it's NAIR but, if it was Uair, it'd be even WORSE). Take this for what you will but, it's not good in its current form at all.
First, I'd point out that the huge loop made it 110% unplayable before, so I find the call to go back to that strange.

Second, camping the lower platform is intentional and immediately obvious. In fact, the first match me and Ampharos ourselves played here started with him going to camp that space. I simply baited an attack and then dove down myself to flush him out. After this happened a few times, always to my success, he stopped trying. It really isn't hard to get someone out, since they have really limited options for attacking someone approaching them.

I still don't think it's a good stage at all, but your inability to deal with simple camping casts doubt on your analysis, no offense.

Captain Falcon - Dtilt has some uses... mostly Dtilt > Falcon Kick... didn't see much else because frankly, it's quite too laggy to chase after someone when they roll out of the trip. FK is the quickest option, when they roll away at least (which technically IS their only option). I find it to be a problem when Yes! doesn't kill off the top at 51% on BRINSTAR despite its "buff". Dtilt helped a bit, and I guess Fair (trip) > Dtilt > FK could be a new combo but, aside from that... I don't see him jumping up spots, or at least very many spots with the current buffs in place. Especially when considering that umm... Nair is utter ****. Although, he did seem to do better against DDD because of the CG loss, I just wasn't ****** really like he can in +. =(
I'm not sold on d-tilt yet, but it does have several followups. Obviously it has tons of followups up close including smashes, but Raptor Boost and u-smash are often possibilities on away roll, and you can always get a dash attack.

Ike - Frankly, I don't like Side B. It is not comparable to Pikachu Side B or Luigi Side B. You're buffing a weakness, which is strange, even when it DOES help him, I don't think it's the right way at all. In any case, the reason why I see it as ridick is because he can chase people offstage with it. Who else can do that with a special move that goes that far and that fast? (Again, Glides do not count) and while it may fit the theme of ridiculous recoveries in Brawl I find it too overwhelming simply because not only did you remove the fallspecial but, you also took away its wind-down from the slash part of it. Which could lead to legit "combos" offstage like QD > QD (slash) > jump > Fair and then Side B back and Up B. You can literally do that, and I find that insane, truly insane because Pikachu nor Luigi can do that yet you compared his Side B to them as though they are completely similar... recovery-wise yes, usefulness? No. Just my opinion, if you don't change it, fine, I just will not be happy with it. =\
I'm not entirely sure what the complaint here is... that Ike isn't like Pikachu or Luigi?

DDD Uthrow - I honestly do not care if you can DI it, tech it, or whatever. If you can't fix DDD Dthrow right at the expense of Uthrow getting messed up, you just don't make the change and you give the reason why in the OP. It is soooooooooo ridiculous to see a Uthrow send down like that. I understand the limitations, it's not that I don't, it's that you shouldn't have done any throw changes until you could because doing something like fixing Dthrow just makes people think you can edit throws (as you have been seeing a lot in this thread). It is easily the most potent throw right now and I think that's ridiculous, pure ridiculousness. Especially if this beta were to ever be used in a tournament, a side event no less. People will pick DDD, it isn't hard to land that grab with him... and once he does, it's techchase time to whatever and get them to the ledge and edgeguard. Whoopee!... No, get rid of the Dthrow change until you can actually do it right or keep this and watch as it gets abused. =\
First, DDD's d-throw is one of the most polarizing, most unbalanced, and most damaging to stage viability moves in all of Brawl. Leaving it in simply because we don't want to sacrifice u-throw is turning a very large blind eye to a serious issue.

Second... most potent throw? HOW? It's inferior to d-throw in every way except against Luigi. How is DDD supposed to force a techchase to the ledge? In our playtest groups, including a lot of DDD matches I played tonight, humans just avoid the edge during tech rolls against DDD. (The only one I got over the course of several hours tonight was on Pirate Ship, where he didn't care.) Also, you act like it kills you; it obviously doesn't, unless you are a single Ice Climber or really bad at the game.

How on earth is anyone going to "abuse" u-throw? You sound like you looked at in in a passing glance, made a bunch of wrong assumptions about how it works, and declared judgement. I don't know of any other tester who has had complaints of u-throw "abuse".
 

Big O

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I'm kind of curious as to whether DK will get any changes on the official version. I know nothing is probably set in stone but will he be getting any buffs? I think DK needs some slight buffs to reach Diddy level.

His worst match-up now that D3, Wario, and Falco have thier chaingrabs removed is Olimar. With the new buffs I think Ivysaur is also a contender for his new worst match-up. Any buffs you choose down the line should probably focus on those two and maybe Samus/Pit as well.
 

Thinkaman

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I don't want to comment too much of planned or upcoming things that might change, but we've been testing a small buff for DK: just +1% on down-b hits, to help out a tiny bit in matchups against defensive characters like the ones you mentioned.

Donly worry too much about "Diddy level", it was dumb that I ever said that; Diddy himself is affected by these chagnes too, so tying goals to Diddy is a moving target. Marth is almost better if you want to pick a character, since he is rather static in terms of matchups and stage preference, at least more so than other characters.
 

Steeler

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i think just "high tier" or "above average" are good enough results for characters. if the worst characters are the equivalent of low B tier right now, then that's good enough for me honestly, because that means they are fairly viable. i mean, marth is a good goal right now because it doesn't make sense to limit your goal to C tier or average but i just hope people don't expect every single character to be right at that level after 5 bbrawl editions.
 

storm92

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They are the same thing. These guys are just dressing it up in different clothes and acting like it's something new.
zxeon, long time no see. I've missed you.

Anyways, I concur on SMK's complaint with D3's Uthrow--say you can't change it in the OP due to code limitations, don't cop out.
Also, after testing it out, Temple...ugh. Change it back.
 

Steeler

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temple is broken anyway. it's not like you are losing an existing counterpick stage.
 

adumbrodeus

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I never said they weren't allowed or that they were stealing, but it is what it is. It's just another configuration of Brawl+. Because unlike replay and file replacement codes and stuff it's built on the foundations of Brawl+.
I don't think you're attempting to troll, you're merely annoyed at what you perceive as people incorrectly defining something.


However, what you're doing is defining Brawl+ as "any usage of a any of a certain set of codes to hack smash" (or maybe over a certain number). In that sense, any project that fullfills that requirement is Brawl+.


The thing is, you're extending the term beyond both it's prescriptive and descriptive meaning. The project (Brawl+) defines itself as something with a specific design philosophy about how to make Brawl better, and the community does so as well. Brawl+ could be using completely different codes to achieve the same effect.


If the community decided that Brawl+ would mean that, you could claim that this is a Brawl+ project (since Brawl+ would be a reasonable catch-all for Brawl hacks, or ones using those codes), but then what would we call the specific project now refered to as Brawl+? If Brawl+ is a class of projects, by definition it cannot be the specific project with a specific define philosophy.

So, what is the name of this specific project if Brawl+ is a name for a class of projects?
 

Crescens

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Samus: Still has problems. I think 2 simple changes could go a long way here.

1: Samus still has major problems coming down from the air. Is there a way to make her DownB bombs fall faster? If they fell faster, they would fall further before they exploded, too. This would allow Samus to space while returning to the ground after taking a hit. Currently, a competent opponent can keep her airborne indefinitely. The only problem is that it may inhibit her bomb-recovery. Testing would obviously be required to see if it would still work at all. Perhaps there is another way to modify bombs to achieve the same end?

2: Samus is a character that will always lose in extended close-quarters combat. She needs to be able to use bombs/projectiles/zairs to set up opportunities to rack up damage and set up vital opportunities to use her more powerful moves. Unfortunately, the current state of balance allows competent players to completely deny her of the space necessary to make such opportunities. Currently, she has no move that effectively gives her horizontal space. Solution? Giving the second hit of her jab and her Ftilt significantly more horizontal knockback could be the sort of 'game changer' she needs. Exploiting her lack of good close-combat options would no longer be so painfully easy for opponents if she could get them out of her face for a while.

On the more minor side, I could suggest a few less significant changes:

3: I would avoid increasing Dtilt knockback; it's already one of her better KO moves. As a damage-oriented character, she should have to use her smashes to seal a KO. The Charge Shot damage boost may be too much if you implement #2.

4. Is there any way to make her Up Smash more viable by modifying the knockback to "suck you in"? Right now, it's easy to SDI out of, usually only partially hits, is very hard to set up, and not very rewarding even if you do land it.

Other than that, I would just like to thank you for this amazing project. The severity criticism here is unwarranted; there is simply no reason one should choose ever vBrawl over this for tourney standards or competitive needs. Yes, water needs to be fixed. Granted, a few of the stages listed as tournament viable shouldn't be; but overall, from a competitive standpoint, the game goes from having 3-5 viable characters, to almost an entire roster, with nothing but more improvements to look forward to. Congratulations for a job well done!
 

betterthanbonds9

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on falcon: take away the 5 frames of lag you added to dtilt, you basically nerf'd your buff lol. Falco is right, the only combo out of it is dtilt to FK. Even if they roll away and you start dashing, maybe my actions aren't frame perfect but i had a strange knack for falling into jab combos or a throw depending on the character. Rolling away is the smarter idea because all falcon can do is FK, which isn't exactly going to kill you if you know how to DI.

Maybe less frames? Assuming that no 5 frames is broken, that is.
-unlike falco400, I like the nair on falcon....

I can see a super smart DDD as ****, but DDD is the same as before: dont get grabbed (at the edge). It's just that this time there aren't infinites or no effort dthrow chains across stages..... Don't be predicable with rolls/attack getups/getups and you'll probably last though >_>. Actually, buffing his fthrow for damage might make that throw viable, but it's probably a dumb suggestion..lol, who needs it when you have bthrow amirite?

Hyrule does suck, really, it's BAD (too long sideways, too oddly cut off). Honestly, hyrule is just badly altered. And it's not like you lose anything by just saying "screw this level" lol.

QD is fine, if my friend missed me (i'd airdodge) then chances are i could get back to the stage before him or just gimp him right there >_> anybody with a decently quick bair can get the gimp imo. Granted, neither of us are M2K or Ally, but I don't see QD being severly broken as you make it out to be 400

link's arrows make spacies tremble. Also, link on lylat is almost unfair and it's only "almost" because you still need to play as link :p

corneria b(^_^b)

can i change the music on training room? That song, whatever it is (i believe there is only one set for that stage), gets annoying really fast. (at least make it an awesome song--like molgera or go kk rider lol

i need to play more before i can critique it, but so far I like the way this project is looking.
 

adumbrodeus

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Oh, Samus impressions.

She still kills way too low. With dtilt, without DI, my opponent was surviving till 168 (I was playing a human, but not a very good one), that's way too much for a kill move.

Down-smash, pretty much same, and bair also fails to kill at reasonable percentages unless off-stage.

Fully charged shot too, still too low.


Honestly, if you want Samus to be usable, what she needs is a way to kill right now. When she can actually kill, other aspects of balance become viable.


She really only needs one true Ko move, but she needs something that can kill reasonably well with DI at around 100 and is relatively safe.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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I think you really need to stop arguing semantics zxeon. If you feel the need to defend yourself it would be better to just PM people who you feel misunderstand your posts.

Anyways I love what you guys did to Big Blue and Mushroomy Kingdom. I overlooked them before but after giving them a shot they are pretty fun and not really broken. I hated Big Blue since melee but slowing it down a little really makes all the difference. That and Sonic keeping up with the cars is too epic.
Thanks for trying these out! I was worried everyone would still hate Big Blue and not give it a chance, but that may not be true.

Now, on to some feedback. I see that there hasn't been much on stages, so that's what the rest of this post will be about.



It's true that the #1 problem with walkoffs was due to chaingrabs, but blastzone camping is also a major problem. If a fast character with a projectile and a good bthrow just camps out near the edge of the stage, a character without a projectile will have trouble approaching and run the risk of getting KO'd as soon as he gets in.

Onett: Onett is just a poor stage altogether. There are still walls all over the place for wall locks (ex multi-jabs), blastzone camping is nigh unbeatable, and don't get me started on the cars. The layout is still very constricted, and it was really only Dedede's cg that was much of a problem - removing it isn't nearly enough to make me consider playing on this stage.Mario Circuit: Same deal as Onett, but to a lesser extent. Again, watch out for blastzone camping and annoying cars. This is another one I don't see working.

Distant Planet: I've always liked DP, even if it isn't the most competitively-oriented stage. The cg fix does get rid of a problem, and makes the stage closer to legal. How much closer is up to debate.

Yoshi's Island (Melee): Now that the cgs are gone, YI still has one problem in my eyes: small blastzones. Of course, having small blastzones could be a good thing...Personally, I find the double slopes a bit constricting as well. YI is better already, though.

Bridge of Eldin: No. Just no. It's just too much of a boon to camping. The bomb that breaks the stage in 2 completely grinds the match to a halt, and even when unbroken, it's too easy to spam a projectile all day.

MK 1-1: At first I was skeptical, but "Rainbow Cruise for ground characters" is an apt descriptor. Great job on this stage, I never thought I'd see the day when I considered Mushroomy Kingdom a legit counterpick.

I am highly against the swimming fix. The intent is there, but it has a whole slew of side effects, such as creating a super-high blastzone once you hit 90%. Instead of making the water a place to be careful around, this fix only makes it something to be avoided, which isn't what it should be. Perhaps simply using the frame speed mod to speed up the swimming and flailing states 2x or 3x would suffice, but removing flailing altogether just won't cut it. Pirate Ship: Even though this works to fix to stage, it breaks it in another way. I began to fear chasing an opponent into the water after I died on the offensive. The blastzone height change at 90% also irks me. I doubt that you can remove the abuse of voluntarily going in the water (ie camping) without creating an abuse of involutarily going in (ie being hit in). Right now, Pirate Ship just isn't ready. (EDIT: give water the flower effect? Good idea? Possible?)

Jungle Japes: You already would want to get out of the water asap, this just restricts your timing when you hit higher percentages. Makes the stage worse, even if only by a little bit.

Delfino Plaza: The beauty of the water (not to mention the walkoffs) at Delfino is that it is temporary, and therefore just about immune to abuse in vBrawl. The fix only puts limitations on the attacker. Again, it's small, but it makes the stage overall worse.



Stage slowdowns: Great job on all counts. Green Greens and Big Blue at 2/3 have a much larger positive effect than I expected them to. Though the hazards are out longer at Picto, there is more time between the hazards, so it's good. I especially like that the wind effect is slower. As I said before, great job on Mushroomy. Mansion is still fairly campy, and I miss deadlands, but it's better than vBrawl. I still think it's more suitable for doubles.

Blastzones: Though Corneria still has the wall to contend with, its blaszones are better. Perhaps give this treatment to Yoshi's Island Melee? Spear Pillar is still off...random floors caving in, laser beams coming out of the sky, and other random stuffz. The blastzone is too high, and I know you can;t lower it. All things considered, SP is a writeoff. Temple, even though the loop was removed, is still campy, and it seems to have too-close blastzones on all sides. I especially love what I have termed the "descent into Hell". Twas fun. Again, We've got a writeoff. It was worth trying, but I don't think it'll make the greatest cometitive stage.



Dude, replace 75m or Mario Bros., those stages don't have a ghost of a chance of being anywhere close to legal. Hanenbow has a chance, at least in doubles. Also, what specifically does the music code change (is it music on all instances of wifi waiting room, wifi waiting room only when attached to hanenbow, or what?), and how can I return it to normal? Also, the button combinations are cool and all, but they won't make either of those stages legal. Also, I support not making WWR aonther FD. Sandbag forever! :p



I was going to argue the stage list, but it's only a suggested list. I'd just like to say that I don't consider anything below Brinstar playable (except Big Blue, wtf is it doing down there?). Half of what's above Brinstar should probably be shifted down a notch as well...



I don't see Flat Zone 2 being legal, even with a stage hazard modifier...PTAD could work, though
I'm skeptical, but I'd like to see a fix for Rumble Falls
The minigames can cost you a stock. You end up fighting the stage, not the opponent. Is that fair? Frozen WarioWare is a great neutral. I know you've made a rule against it, but at least consider it
Again, for the water, 2x or 3x on swimming and flailing should do the trick (EDIT: flower effect on water)
I don't know if we want to speed up character transformation for Sheik/Zelda...that would increase interdependency and be seen as a buff to the two of them together, making any single-character strat weaker. Also, it'd probably be seen as unfair to PT if it didn't include him.



I didn't realize it before, but the Halberd problem applies to Brawl+ as well. We should get a fix for it.
As well, when we tested out Spear Pillar (Dialga) today, the screen sorta went fuzzy when he did his 'slow down time' routine. I'm not sure if that's supposed to happen and I just haven't been on that stage in so long that I forgot...

======

Other stuff: Is it a problem to include the buffer-handicap code in bBrawl? It doesn't really change anything, and being able to choose a buffer allows much greater precision.
Also, if you're considering any buffs for Kirby, I recommend looking at ftilt (damage or bkb buff) or nair (see BRawl+). Ftilt would be a buff in most matchups, the kind you would want to put in if it turns out that Kirby is low tier. As it is presently outshadowed by utilt, dtilt, fsmash, or jab, depending on the situation, this would result in a general buff. The nair buff present in Brawl+ (bkb 60 from 10) would be a more specific buff, as it pays greatly to have a ranged move that can positively trade hits with vertical recoveries and can kill. Bair is much more precise against a horizontal move, as, say, a Phantasm user can maneuver around the laggy nair. Running offstage to nair a Marth's Dolphin Slash, on the other hand, can easily result in hits trading, with Kirby going verical and Marth flying horizontally, away from the stage without his jumps. Nair is much too laggy to risk not hitting when offstage, regardless of its power, and so it would be very effective as a stock finisher but not as a general-purpose WOP-type move. Note that G&W's Parachute goes straight through nair, so it would be useless in that matchup.

I think I suggested it before, but you should add:
Coloured shields
File replacement
Unrestricted Color Choice
Unrestricted Pause Camera
Unrestricted Replay Camera
Unrestricted Button Mapping Editing
Tags in Replays
There was probably more, too

Altogether, AA and Think, I applaud your efforts thus far.
I'd like to thank you for spending time with the stages, but be warned I do disagree with a lot of your assessments so I'm going to make my case.

I have played on walk-off stages perhaps more than any other serious tournament player on smashboards, and I say with absolute confidence that blastzone camping is not even close to a broken strategy. In fact, it's not even a good strategy except in a few matchups.

First of all, obviously, you only have to approach if you are down. Just not running in when you don't have to really limits the use of that as a powerful tactic. Even more though, the fact that when you are really close to a walk-off you take continuous damage really limits the use of it as a low percent kill technique. Most back throws have pretty bad base knockback and won't kill if you aren't in the constant damage zone, and of course if you do just stand in the constant damage zone, you are inviting the opponent to sit back and relax as you take damage (even if I'm a stock down, I'm happy to wait until you are at 200% to approach). Forward throws, on the other hand, tend to have pretty good base knockback. What it means is that in general you are setting yourself up to be killed at low damage off the walk-off by camping near it far moreso than you are setting up your opponent. If you grab me, I probably won't die. If I grab you, you are going to die (well, not me since G&W sucks at exploiting walk-offs, but you know what I mean). Even if I'm at high enough damage to die to your back throw, it's not bad for me. I'm already hurt, and I'm in danger anywhere. I'd much rather you choose to fight somewhere we are both in danger instead of somewhere where you may not be in danger and I am.

The only character I find has a legitimate and threatening walk-off camping game is Olimar, and even with him it can be countered. It's really just good for the same reason Olimar is a good camper in general, but all the same ways you beat a camping Olimar really do still apply. I should throw out that Sonic in particular has a bthrow that kills really easily off walk-offs, but landing it in the proper position as Sonic is just not something you should be doing often to a skilled opponent.

Onett: I think you're being really unfair to this stage. Walls are not broken at all (other than Ike who is being fixed and maybe with DK who is being looked into). Those jab and dtilt abuses against walls are so hard to set up in real matches against opponents who know they're possible, and they're escapable with SDI pretty easily. You take a decent chunk of damage for getting caught in them, but given how hard they are to land, it's fair. Walk-off camping, as I've already gone into, just plain isn't broken at all. As per the cars, let's get into them. They come at semi-predictable intervals, give a VERY clear warning they are coming, and interrupt all the previous tactics discussed. They do a lot of damage (30%), but it's not a totally unreasonable amount, and they literally never kill unless you were practically in the blast zone yourself. On this stage, the anti-walk-off camping tactics I mentioned aren't even needed for that matter. I'll just wait for a car and attack in unison with it. I don't see how there's anything wrong with this; strategic use of predictable hazards is a legitimate skill (see also: Norfair).

Mario Circuit is just all around fair. Camping walk-offs is still far from gamebreaking, and otherwise there's little reason to dislike the stage. The karts are a pretty weak hazard all around, and they are really, really predictable with the stage having multiple background elements that tell you when and where they are coming. I don't really consider them being "annoying" as a problem, in any case. Annoying is subjective. This stage is a really, really amazing Ness counterpick, but I don't think that should be too big of a problem.

Distant Planet is a stage I have just plain never understood the complaints against it in standard Brawl (though the chaingrabs in specific matchups certainly weren't good so the stage is better regardless). I see occasional posts saying it's bad or non-competitive, but I've never seen a well-ariculated post explaining it as unfair. The closest I've ever seen is people posting why they think it's obnoxious or just explaining how it's a pretty different stage... I have a long history of arguing over this stage though, with people usually just flat out ignoring me when I say it should be legal at [insert tournament here]. It's definitely a strategically very deep stage so it will be very interesting to see how play evolves here.

Yoshi's Island (Melee) is a stage on which I intuitively find the small blast zones a good thing. They do make it a decently strong counterpick stage, but that's mostly for characters like Bowser who really "deserve" it IMO (despite his usual preference for small stages, it's actually not very good for Mr. Game & Watch). I do want to see how tactics evolve here; this is a pretty complex stage that I don't think ever got explored very well.

Bridge of Eldin has problems, but I think you're slightly off on what they are. Among high level players who are decent at powershielding, I don't find projectiles are really that hard to get through here. The main issue I see is that running away is a little ridiculous here, especially as Olimar who has a total field day with this stage and maybe uses it as too strong of a counterpick. Ironically, the stage breaking seems to help this because, while it's true it can stop matches dead if you are on opposite sides, you can usually pretty easily ensure you're on the same side, and that actually makes it a lot harder to run away and camp. I really can see this stage needing to be banned in the end (which is why I put it where I did), but I think simple things like "run away and spam laser with Falco" aren't as good as people think.

Water mechanics are definitely an issue, and at this point the currently implemented mechanics aren't going to be in the final version. We're working on finding something or another we can do that will hopefully be winning for everyone, but we do understand and have come to even agree with most of what you've said here about it.

Yeah, the slowdowns worked out pretty well. Despite it not being a particularly good stage for my character, I've actually always loved Brawl's Luigi's Mansion to death for its strategic depth; I have a personal interest in seeing this one work out!

Spear Pillar and Temple were really just an experiment. I don't think they're total write-offs, but I know they're... questionable. In any case I'm not too worried. They're mega-insta-banned in standard Brawl so what is there to lose, right?

I am being completely serious when I say that I really don't think Hanenbow is any more fair than 75m. That's not to say 75m is good; both are just terrible for both singles and doubles and even if you were going to have doubles only stages I think you'd start with several counter/banned stages that you might be inclined to be against like Green Hill Zone and Bridge of Eldin. The difference is that 75m is hilarious, looks cool, and has good music while Hanenbow is obnoxious, ugly, and has no music. That was my logic at least; I'd like to have some button activator to let you select Hanenbow regardless so this becomes a non-issue. I'll probably compile an alternate version for the final release that replaces Mario Bros. for people who really love Hanenbow if that doesn't work out though (it shouldn't desynch online so no issue).

Flat Zone 2 is a lot closer to fair than you might think, though of course you have to agree with me about walk-offs in general...

The games on WarioWare are actually a lot more tame than you'd think. Most of them don't have any hazards at all, and the ones that do are pretty well telegraphed and easy to avoid (a few would qualify for a power down though, mostly the arrows that rain on you). The main thing is that I really don't want to remove what makes this stage unique; one of my favorite elements of Brawl is how every stage really stands out from every other stage.

Speeding up the swimming animations definitely won't fix water because rapidly jumping out isn't really addressed by it. Water mechanics are really difficult to make work favorably with our current code limitations...

Dialga causing fuzziness is normal.

Honestly, I think the raw confusion (as well as online desynchs) the buffer=handicap code causes as a negative outweighs its positives, though I'm somewhat dubious of a code that causes characters to control differently anyway.

As per the other assorted codes, most of those are extras that some people like and some people don't, and as such they will probably be included as non-default extras in the next version with a few of them (like unrestricted button editing) being just standard. We didn't spend much time looking at these sort of extras, but there's no philosophical objection to them.

This was a really long post in which I disagreed with you far more than I agreed with you, but I do appreciate the feedback and the effort you put into it. I just get REALLY into stages.

Okay I just FINALLY played this thing with people for a brief period of time tonight and here are my thoughtd (quickly summarized):

Hyrule Temple - Change it. For the love of God, go back to what it was, it's not good in this new form at all. I don't know if you guys knew or not but, you can stall below the walk-through platform near the stairs on the left side, the death boundary doesn't reach there. Meta Knight could keep Nairing the area and I could simply not do anything about it (yes I know it's NAIR but, if it was Uair, it'd be even WORSE). Take this for what you will but, it's not good in its current form at all.

Captain Falcon - Dtilt has some uses... mostly Dtilt > Falcon Kick... didn't see much else because frankly, it's quite too laggy to chase after someone when they roll out of the trip. FK is the quickest option, when they roll away at least (which technically IS their only option). I find it to be a problem when Yes! doesn't kill off the top at 51% on BRINSTAR despite its "buff". Dtilt helped a bit, and I guess Fair (trip) > Dtilt > FK could be a new combo but, aside from that... I don't see him jumping up spots, or at least very many spots with the current buffs in place. Especially when considering that umm... Nair is utter ****. Although, he did seem to do better against DDD because of the CG loss, I just wasn't ****** really like he can in +. =(

Ike - Frankly, I don't like Side B. It is not comparable to Pikachu Side B or Luigi Side B. You're buffing a weakness, which is strange, even when it DOES help him, I don't think it's the right way at all. In any case, the reason why I see it as ridick is because he can chase people offstage with it. Who else can do that with a special move that goes that far and that fast? (Again, Glides do not count) and while it may fit the theme of ridiculous recoveries in Brawl I find it too overwhelming simply because not only did you remove the fallspecial but, you also took away its wind-down from the slash part of it. Which could lead to legit "combos" offstage like QD > QD (slash) > jump > Fair and then Side B back and Up B. You can literally do that, and I find that insane, truly insane because Pikachu nor Luigi can do that yet you compared his Side B to them as though they are completely similar... recovery-wise yes, usefulness? No. Just my opinion, if you don't change it, fine, I just will not be happy with it. =\

DDD Uthrow - I honestly do not care if you can DI it, tech it, or whatever. If you can't fix DDD Dthrow right at the expense of Uthrow getting messed up, you just don't make the change and you give the reason why in the OP. It is soooooooooo ridiculous to see a Uthrow send down like that. I understand the limitations, it's not that I don't, it's that you shouldn't have done any throw changes until you could because doing something like fixing Dthrow just makes people think you can edit throws (as you have been seeing a lot in this thread). It is easily the most potent throw right now and I think that's ridiculous, pure ridiculousness. Especially if this beta were to ever be used in a tournament, a side event no less. People will pick DDD, it isn't hard to land that grab with him... and once he does, it's techchase time to whatever and get them to the ledge and edgeguard. Whoopee!... No, get rid of the Dthrow change until you can actually do it right or keep this and watch as it gets abused. =\

That's all who I touched and had the time to look at or played against (I played against DDD). It's small feedback and likely, I won't be giving much more feedback for awhile (due to low interest in this and I just kinda played it on a whim). Just my personal thoughts. Some of the BBrawl matches were recorded... I'll ask for a few of them and see if I can upload them to my account.
I don't see any way the old Temple could be better than this new Temple just because the old Temple was really, really bad. Is there harm in this experiment?

Captain Falcon is a big concern for us, and he'll probably be buffed up a bit for the final version (though at the same time likely see a bit of a knee tonedown). He's a very hard character to get right; he and Brawl just don't get along very well.

I'm really not sure how else Ike could be legitimately good with a fair time against characters like Falco, Pit, and Toon Link who run and spam him and generally abuse his mobility without being broken against guys like Mr. Game & Watch who already had to work against him without a change like this. That is to say that the old Ike wasn't good enough to worry about, but if just buffed across the board, Ike would quickly become the most polarizing character in the game which would not really be acceptable. In any case, I think the way Ike falls like a rock means his off-stage game is really not above average for Brawl; it's just existent contrary to its former state.

King Dedede's change makes Donkey Kong a character again. I'm not sure how his uthrow could be so bad as to negate that to be honest, though we're pretty sure proper DI negates most of the abuse stemming from it.

Samus: Still has problems. I think 2 simple changes could go a long way here.

1: Samus still has major problems coming down from the air. Is there a way to make her DownB bombs fall faster? If they fell faster, they would fall further before they exploded, too. This would allow Samus to space while returning to the ground after taking a hit. Currently, a competent opponent can keep her airborne indefinitely. The only problem is that it may inhibit her bomb-recovery. Testing would obviously be required to see if it would still work at all. Perhaps there is another way to modify bombs to achieve the same end?

2: Samus is a character that will always lose in extended close-quarters combat. She needs to be able to use bombs/projectiles/zairs to set up opportunities to rack up damage and set up vital opportunities to use her more powerful moves. Unfortunately, the current state of balance allows competent players to completely deny her of the space necessary to make such opportunities. Currently, she has no move that effectively gives her horizontal space. Solution? Giving the second hit of her jab and her Ftilt significantly more horizontal knockback could be the sort of 'game changer' she needs. Exploiting her lack of good close-combat options would no longer be so painfully easy for opponents if she could get them out of her face for a while.

On the more minor side, I could suggest a few less significant changes:

3: I would avoid increasing Dtilt knockback; it's already one of her better KO moves. As a damage-oriented character, she should have to use her smashes to seal a KO. The Charge Shot damage boost may be too much if you implement #2.

4. Is there any way to make her Up Smash more viable by modifying the knockback to "suck you in"? Right now, it's easy to SDI out of, usually only partially hits, is very hard to set up, and not very rewarding even if you do land it.

Other than that, I would just like to thank you for this amazing project. The severity criticism here is unwarranted; there is simply no reason one should choose ever vBrawl over this for tourney standards or competitive needs. Yes, water needs to be fixed. Granted, a few of the stages listed as tournament viable shouldn't be; but overall, from a competitive standpoint, the game goes from having 3-5 viable characters, to almost an entire roster, with nothing but more improvements to look forward to. Congratulations for a job well done!
For 1. the answer is just no, it's not possible. It would also mess up bomb jumping which wouldn't be desirable.

2. sounds very reasonable and is definitely something to be considered.

For 3., the change is actually pretty small and mostly is there to prevent the horrible yet common in standard Brawl case of failing to kill with it and getting stuck in a nasty staleness loop where she doesn't end up getting a kill until 20%+. I definitely agree design wise about how Samus shouldn't be killing easily, but I look at how hard she has to work for it in standard Brawl (probably harder than even Sonic), and it just seems silly.

For 4., probably and it's worth looking into.

Thanks for the positive comments, and thanks for feedback on this tricky character.

on falcon: take away the 5 frames of lag you added to dtilt, you basically nerf'd your buff lol. Falco is right, the only combo out of it is dtilt to FK. Even if they roll away and you start dashing, maybe my actions aren't frame perfect but i had a strange knack for falling into jab combos or a throw depending on the character. Rolling away is the smarter idea because all falcon can do is FK, which isn't exactly going to kill you if you know how to DI.

Maybe less frames? Assuming that no 5 frames is broken, that is.
-unlike falco400, I like the nair on falcon....

I can see a super smart DDD as ****, but DDD is the same as before: dont get grabbed (at the edge). It's just that this time there aren't infinites or no effort dthrow chains across stages..... Don't be predicable with rolls/attack getups/getups and you'll probably last though >_>. Actually, buffing his fthrow for damage might make that throw viable, but it's probably a dumb suggestion..lol, who needs it when you have bthrow amirite?

Hyrule does suck, really, it's BAD (too long sideways, too oddly cut off). Honestly, hyrule is just badly altered. And it's not like you lose anything by just saying "screw this level" lol.

QD is fine, if my friend missed me (i'd airdodge) then chances are i could get back to the stage before him or just gimp him right there >_> anybody with a decently quick bair can get the gimp imo. Granted, neither of us are M2K or Ally, but I don't see QD being severly broken as you make it out to be 400

link's arrows make spacies tremble. Also, link on lylat is almost unfair and it's only "almost" because you still need to play as link :p

corneria b(^_^b)

can i change the music on training room? That song, whatever it is (i believe there is only one set for that stage), gets annoying really fast. (at least make it an awesome song--like molgera or go kk rider lol

i need to play more before i can critique it, but so far I like the way this project is looking.
Dtilt to Falcon Kick does do good damage and set up a positional advantage though. The 5 frames are simply necessary with tripping by the way; it prevents really trivial infinites (dtilt -> dtilt -> dtilt...).

Link's arrows are being tweaked a bit because of polarization, but it's just a bit.

Yes, the song can be changed. It's just that one because I really like that one which is obviously subjective to the point where there's no point discussing it. With the final version, I'm going to include a better walk-through for compiling your own version with instructions on how to make changes like this.

Oh, Samus impressions.

She still kills way too low. With dtilt, without DI, my opponent was surviving till 168 (I was playing a human, but not a very good one), that's way too much for a kill move.

Down-smash, pretty much same, and bair also fails to kill at reasonable percentages unless off-stage.

Fully charged shot too, still too low.


Honestly, if you want Samus to be usable, what she needs is a way to kill right now. When she can actually kill, other aspects of balance become viable.


She really only needs one true Ko move, but she needs something that can kill reasonably well with DI at around 100 and is relatively safe.
Having kill move problems is something I think Samus needs, but it's definitely a question of how bad. I fear she would be a little ridiculous if she could easily kill at around 100%... Thanks for the input.
 

TreK

Is "that guy"
Joined
Aug 27, 2008
Messages
2,960
Location
France
I think you could do a sum in the op about what you already decided to change thx to the feedback... I was about to re-spam about the water =D

And I'm going to respam about the PAL version because the search fonction really sucks at searching. Is a trial version out ? I told you I intended to be a PAL tester D=
 

shanus

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Messages
6,055
I don't think you're attempting to troll, you're merely annoyed at what you perceive as people incorrectly defining something.


However, what you're doing is defining Brawl+ as "any usage of a any of a certain set of codes to hack smash" (or maybe over a certain number). In that sense, any project that fullfills that requirement is Brawl+.


The thing is, you're extending the term beyond both it's prescriptive and descriptive meaning. The project (Brawl+) defines itself as something with a specific design philosophy about how to make Brawl better, and the community does so as well. Brawl+ could be using completely different codes to achieve the same effect.


If the community decided that Brawl+ would mean that, you could claim that this is a Brawl+ project (since Brawl+ would be a reasonable catch-all for Brawl hacks, or ones using those codes), but then what would we call the specific project now refered to as Brawl+? If Brawl+ is a class of projects, by definition it cannot be the specific project with a specific define philosophy.

So, what is the name of this specific project if Brawl+ is a name for a class of projects?
All of the questions you posed in this attempt at a clever response were just a horrid rebuttal where all you truly accomplished was trying to derail the true topic at hand. You know, as well as I know, the intentions of his post were incriminating the creators of BB by using the codes that we made for Brawl+ over time for their project. We aren't discussing the semantics and underlying theory of the name Brawl+, so either argue the point at hand or don't comment on it at all.

However, what you're doing is defining Brawl+ as "any usage of a any of a certain set of codes to hack smash" (or maybe over a certain number). In that sense, any project that fullfills that requirement is Brawl+
There is a profound difference here though. When its all the work that we put into our codes then being explicitly taken and reused, I think people have a right to voice their opinions as to the legitimacy of those actions. Taking our work and then removing the coders names on individual codes is outright offensive. I know while I might not have been an explicit coder for a lot of these codes, I spent many many hours debugging these codes before a lot of them were even released to the public. But given how you havent dedicated yourself to these projects like we have, I doubt you can relate.

Please don't defend this post here though, I don't want to fill BB's thread with Brawl+ rants again out of respect for Thinkaman and AA as they are both nice guys. If you want to discuss, PM me.
 

ChronoPenguin

Smash Champion
Joined
May 26, 2007
Messages
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Location
Brampton Ontario, Canada
3DS FC
4253-4494-4458
I wish it were just possible to edit the hazards precentage on spear pillar themselves, so that the bottom cavern laser happens quite frequently, making playing in the cavern hazardous business, and attempts at using the predictable lazer to kill off your opponent a type of strategy.
But I suppose that's not possible at the moment >.<
I dont like the removal of the cavern, nor these absurdly high blast zones. If anything I rather spear pillar was felt as a "It is what it is" kinda deal. However it doesnt appear that Hazards can be changed....though it should be possible because from what I coul tell their activation was random. So it should've just been a "Disable Dialgia walking out" thing, and then enable the lazers, which are so stupidly visible to see people complaining about them is nothing more than a preference. Sure the cavern laser can really stop the fight for a moment with people shielding, but people alreay feel the cavern is to...campy.
So that's not even an issue.
My 2 cents on Spear pillar despite it not really amounting to anything.


Anywho....
 

Revven

FrankerZ
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
7,550
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
First, I'd point out that the huge loop made it 110% unplayable before, so I find the call to go back to that strange.

Second, camping the lower platform is intentional and immediately obvious. In fact, the first match me and Ampharos ourselves played here started with him going to camp that space. I simply baited an attack and then dove down myself to flush him out. After this happened a few times, always to my success, he stopped trying. It really isn't hard to get someone out, since they have really limited options for attacking someone approaching them.

I still don't think it's a good stage at all, but your inability to deal with simple camping casts doubt on your analysis, no offense.
I just don't like the new Temple, I'm sorry. It's not any better than before, it hurts tethers and actually hurts Ike somewhat too because of the close boundaries (which you COULD fix, at least the left most boundaries and right side, probably can't do **** about the bottom boundaries). Point being, I do not see how Temple OR SP can be legit CPs for a tournament in their current states, at all. The only way SP is going to work is if you froze it when the hole was always there and HT just isn't ever going to work, you can't save that stage, even with this change I don't find it to be MUCH better (or infinitely better) it's at best "okay". You can keep it if you want, I just won't be playing on it still.

I played on it in one match though and pretty much didn't like the camping that MK could do there. I think that's way worse, than it was originally, I don't care if I could live forever down there. In its current form, I can already probably see characters having a hard time against MK here, he'll basically just dominate with Uair in that one spot. If you bait, that's great, that still doesn't mean MK can't go back down there and camp once more and if you bait once, is MK gonna fall for it again? I highly doubt that. Plus, I was playing Ike against MK... and I DID stop the camping once, release grabbed him to his death. That didn't really make him stop doing it the next stock... =\

Oh and I'm sorry that apparently I somehow "can't deal with camping" when it's a completely changed stage and I was playing a character I almost never play.

I'm not sold on d-tilt yet, but it does have several followups. Obviously it has tons of followups up close including smashes, but Raptor Boost and u-smash are often possibilities on away roll, and you can always get a dash attack.
I tried CF for only about a few matches, just like for 30 minutes (a very brief period like I said). I didn't have a whole lot of chance to try stuff with him, but, Dtilt is alright. CF is someone hard to get working in this environment because to be honest, he just doesn't work in an environment with very little hitstun and a bunch of campy characters, it doesn't help that he doesn't have much if any priority at all. If you increased his individual dash speed, that might help him get inside people better (even though he is already 2nd fastest in the game, I still feel he is super sluggish). Whatever you plan to do, I HOPE he at least becomes mid or high of mid tier...

I'm not entirely sure what the complaint here is... that Ike isn't like Pikachu or Luigi?
The complaint should be pretty obvious, Ike QD is 2gud and the comparison you made like many many many pages ago is totally inaccurate. I'm aware you can probably bait Ike's QD, punish it, or whatever, but aside from that it's just a weird move to buff, especially since it's a weakness of his to have a bad recovery like it is for Link, yet Link doesn't get a no fallspecial from his Up B? I... don't understand. I guess QD helps Ike in his match-ups and that you don't want to buff him in his strengths because even when you do that it doesn't help his tough match-ups...? I don't play the guy but like, QD, IMO, is just stupid to me in its current form. But whatever.

First, DDD's d-throw is one of the most polarizing, most unbalanced, and most damaging to stage viability moves in all of Brawl. Leaving it in simply because we don't want to sacrifice u-throw is turning a very large blind eye to a serious issue.

Second... most potent throw? HOW? It's inferior to d-throw in every way except against Luigi. How is DDD supposed to force a techchase to the ledge? In our playtest groups, including a lot of DDD matches I played tonight, humans just avoid the edge during tech rolls against DDD. (The only one I got over the course of several hours tonight was on Pirate Ship, where he didn't care.) Also, you act like it kills you; it obviously doesn't, unless you are a single Ice Climber or really bad at the game.

How on earth is anyone going to "abuse" u-throw? You sound like you looked at in in a passing glance, made a bunch of wrong assumptions about how it works, and declared judgement. I don't know of any other tester who has had complaints of u-throw "abuse".
I know how DDD's Dthrow was before... I'm a freaking DK main, you don't need to tell me how it is. And I'm not "really" bad at the game, I certainly can't pick up how to DI this abomination of a throw in less than 5 minutes. The point I was trying to make was, if you can't make a GOOD change to his Dthrow without it affecting Uthrow, (meaning no side effects like that) then don't make the change. The thing is still in beta, people will understand if you don't make the change RIGHT away, the first time you preview it. It's too late now to take back the change, so I suppose I'll just say that I didn't have THAT bad of a time against it. I didn't get Uthrow > Swallow against and the only real bad part I experienced was when King Yoshi Uthrow'd me near Delfino's water and we both fell in, him dying first (we're both at above 90%) and me dying a second later.

I honestly just do not like how Uthrow is. I can't tolerate it, it has a weird timing for teching (which I did manage to do a few times) but even so, techrolls in this game are extremely slow so DDD will have a lot of options from Uthrow to techchase with, a lot more than Dthrow IMO (can you tech Dthrow? I don't think you can...?) simply because of the fact that most character's techrolls are just terribly slow, or even standing techs (which are terrible in this game). I was just trying to say that, Uthrow shouldn't work like this and unfortunately, it does because of the limitations, those limitations could've been avoided if you just didn't make the change to his Dthrow (and I KNOW how potent his Dthrow was...) however, it is too late for that so just keep doing what you're doing then.

I definitely didn't like how you made two charges against me of being a bad player, which I'm not, changes like Temple are real problems, you can't deny that. And maybe I just suck against DDD Uthrow? Ever thought of that? Yeah, you didn't need to take a jab at me like that... completely what I didn't ask for in a response from someone who works on this.
 

timothyung

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
948
Location
Hong Kong
I'm sure that everyone like this codes, and for those who don't like it, they don't affect them.
File replacement
Unrestricted Pause Camera
Unrestricted Replay Camera
Unrestricted Button Mapping Editing
Tags in Replays
Buffer related codes
Thinkaman and AA, you should add these codes.

And you might consider adding individual trainer Pokemons for those who want to use a single Pokemon, but not the trainer's other Pokemons. This will give more people a chance to main one of the Pokemons.

And giving credits of each coder for each individual code would be better. And you might want to ask their permission before using the codes, or at least tell them that you are using their codes.
 

Anomilus

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 30, 2004
Messages
1,221
Location
The space between genius and madness
NNID
Hyperdon
For those who have been asking, here's how you change the WiFi Training Music to whatever theme you want.

Locate this code within the provided codeset.

WiFi Training Room Music
* 0410FE04 386327C3

Replace the bolded part of that code with any of the hexcode IDs in the list below:

Code:
Music ID List
26F9 Menu 1
26FA Menu 1
26FB Menu 2
26FC Battlefield
26FD Final Destination
26FF Online Practice Stage
2700 Results Display Screen
2701 Tournament Registration
2702 Tournament Grid
2703 Tournament Match End
2705 Classic: Results Screen
2706 ENDING
2707 All-Star Rest Area
2708 Home-Run Contest
2709 Cruel Brawl
270A Boss Battle
270B Trophy Gallery
270C Sticker Album / Album / Chronicle
270D Coin Launcher
270F Stage Builder
2712 Target Smash!!
2713 Credits
2714 Ground Theme (Super Mario Bros.)
2715 Underground Theme (Super Mario Bros.)
2716 Underwater Theme (Super Mario Bros.)
2717 Underground Theme (Super Mario Land)
2718 Airship Theme (Super Mario Bros. 3)
2719 Castle / Boss Fortress (Super Mario World / SMB 3)
271A Title / Ending (Super Mario World)
271B Main Theme (New Super Mario Bros.)
271C Luigi's Mansion Theme
271D Gritzy Desert
2720 Delfino Plaza
2721 Ricco Harbor
2722 Main Theme (Super Mario 64)
2723 Ground Theme 2 (Super Mario Bros.)
2724 Mario Bros.
2725 Mario Circuit
2726 Luigi Circuit
2727 Waluigi Pinball
2728 Rainbow Road
2729 Jungle Level Ver.2
272A The Map Page / Bonus Level
272B Opening (Donkey Kong)
272C Donkey Kong
272D King K.Rool / Ship Deck 2
272E Bramble Blast
272F Battle for Storm Hill
2730 Jungle Level
2731 25m BGM
2732 DK Jungle 1 Theme (Barrel Blast)
2733 Title (The Legend of Zelda)
2734 Main Theme (The Legend of Zelda)
2735 Great Temple / Temple
2736 The Dark World
2737 Hidden Mountain & Forest
2739 Tal Tal Heights
273A Hyrule Field Theme
273B Ocarina of Time Medley
273C Song of Storms
273D Molgera Battle
273E Village of the Blue Maiden
273F Gerudo Valley
2740 Termina Field
2741 Dragon Roost Island
2742 The Great Sea
2743 Main Theme (Twilight Princess)
2744 The Hidden Village
2745 Midna's Lament
2746 Main Theme (Metroid)
2747 Norfair
2748 Ending (Metroid)
2749 Vs. Ridley
274A Theme of Samus Aran, Space Warrior
274B Sector 1
274C Opening / Menu (Metroid Prime)
274D Vs. Parasite Queen
274E Vs. Meta Ridley
274F Multiplayer (Metroid Prime 2)
2750 Ending (Yoshi's Story)
2751 Obstacle Course
2752 Yoshi's Island
2754 Flower Field
2755 Wildlands
2757 The Legendary Air Ride Machine
2758 King Dedede's Theme
2759 Boss Theme Medley
275A Butter Building
275B Gourmet Race
275C Meta Knight's Revenge
275D Vs. Marx
275E 0 Battle
275F Forest / Nature Area
2760 Checker Knights
2761 Frozen Hillside
2762 Squeak Squad Theme
2763 Main Theme (Star Fox)
2764 Corneria
2765 Main Theme (Star Fox 64)
2766 Area 6
2767 Star Wolf
2769 Space Battleground
276A Break Through the Ice
276B Star Wolf (Star Fox: Assault)
276C Space Armada
276D Area 6 Ver. 2
276E Pokémon Main Theme
276F Pokémon Center
2770 Road to Viridian City (From Pallet Town / Pewter City)
2771 Pokémon Gym / Evolution
2772 Wild Pokémon Battle! (Ruby / Sapphire)
2773 Victory Road
2774 Wild Pokémon Battle! (Diamond / Pearl)
2775 Dialga / Palkia Battle at Spear Pillar!
2776 Team Galactic Battle!
2777 Route 209
2778 Mute City
2779 White Land
277A Fire Field
277B Car Select
277C Dream Chaser
277D Devil's Call in Your Heart
277E Climb Up! And Get The Last Chance!
277F Brain Cleaner
2780 Shotgun Kiss
2781 Planet Colors
2783 Fire Emblem Theme
2784 Shadow Dragon Medley
2785 With Mila's Divine Protection (Celica Map 1)
2787 Preparing to Advance
2788 Winning Road - Roy's Hope
2789 Attack
278A Against the Dark Knight
278B Crimean Army Sortie
278C Power-Hungry Fool
278D Victory Is Near
278E Ike's Theme
278F Snowman
2793 Humoresque of a Little Dog
2795 Porky's Theme
2796 Mother 3 Love Theme
2797 Unfounded Revenge / Smashing Song of Praise
2798 You Call This a Utopia?!
2799 World Map (Pikmin 2)
279A Forest of Hope
279B Environmental Noises
279C Ai no Uta
279D Tane no Uta
279E Main Theme (Pikmin)
279F Stage Clear / Title (Pikmin)
27A0 Ai no Uta (French Version)
27A1 WarioWare, Inc.
27A2 WarioWare, Inc. Medley
27A3 Mona Pizza's Song (Japanese Version)
27A4 Mona Pizza's Song (English Version)
27A5 Mike's Song (Japanese Version)
27A6 Mike's Song (English Version)
27A7 Ashley's Song (Japanese Version)
27A8 Ashley's Song (English Version)
27B3 Title (Animal Crossing)
27B4 Go K.K. Rider!
27B5 2:00 a.m.
27B7 The Roost
27B8 Town Hall and Tom Nook's Store
27B9 K.K. Crusin'
27BA K.K. Western
27BB K.K. Gumbo
27BC Rockin' K.K.
27BD DJ K.K.
27BE K.K. Condor
27BF Underworld
27C0 Title (Kid Icarus)
27C1 Skyworld
27C2 Kid Icarus Original Medley
27C3 Famicom Medley
27C4 Gyromite
27C6 Chill (Dr. Mario)
27C7 Clu Clu Land
27C8 Balloon Trip
27C9 Ice Climber
27CA Shin Onigashima
27CB Title (3D Hot Rally)
27CC Tetris: Type A
27CD Tetris: Type B
27CE Tunnel Scene (X)
27CF Power-Up Music
27D0 Douchuumen (Nazo no Murasamejo)
27D2 PictoChat
27D3 ELECTRO
27D4 Flat Zone 2
27D5 Mario Tennis / Mario Golf
27D6 Lip's Theme (Panel de Pon)
27D7 Marionation Gear
27D8 Title (Big Brain Academy)
27D9 Golden Forest (1080Snowboarding)
27DA Mii Channel
27DB Wii Shop Channel
27DC Battle Scene / Final Boss (Golden Sun)
27DD Shaberu! DS Cooking Navi
27DE Excite Truck
27DF Brain Age: Train Your Brain in Minutes a Day
27E0 Opening Theme (Wii Sports)
27E1 Charge! (Wii Play)
27E3 Encounter
27E4 Theme of Tara
27E5 Yell "Dead Cell"
27E6 Snake Eater (Instrumental)
27E7 MGS4 Theme of Love Smash Bros. Brawl Version
27E8 Cavern
27E9 Battle in the Base
27EB Theme of Solid Snake
27EC Calling to the Night
27ED Credits (Super Smash Bros.)
27EE Menu (Super Smash Bros. Melee)
27EF Opening (Super Smash Bros. Melee)
27F2 Green Hill Zone
27F3 Scrap Brain Zone
27F4 Emerald Hill Zone
27F5 Angel Island Zone
27F6 UCANDO
27F7 Sonic Boom
27F8 Super Sonic Racing
27F9 Open Your Heart
27FA Live & Learn
27FB Sonic Heroes
27FC Right There, Ride On
27FD HIS WORLD (Instrumental)
27FE Seven Rings In Hand
27FF Princess Peach's Castle (Melee)
2800 Rainbow Cruise (Melee)
2801 Jungle Japes (Melee)
2802 Brinstar Depths (Melee)
2803 Yoshi's Island (Melee)
2804 Fountain of Dreams (Melee)
2805 Green Greens (Melee)
2806 Corneria (Melee)
2807 Pokémon Stadium (Melee)
2808 Poké Floats (Melee)
2809 Big Blue (Melee)
280A Mother (Melee)
280B Icicle Mountain (Melee)
280C Flat Zone (Melee)
280D Super Mario Bros. 3 (Melee)
280E Battle Theme (Melee)
280F Fire Emblem (Melee)
2810 Mach Rider (Melee)
2811 Mother 2 (Melee)
2812 Dr. Mario (Melee)
2813 Battlefield (Melee)
2815 Multi-Man Melee 1 (Melee)
2816 Temple (Melee)
2817 Final Destination (Melee)
2818 Kong Jungle (Melee)
2819 Brinstar (Melee)
281A Venom (Melee)
281B Mute City (Melee)
281C Menu (Melee)
281D Giga Bowser (Melee)
281F Adventure Map
2820 Step: The Plain
2821 Step: The Cave
2822 Step: Subspace
2823 Boss Battle Song 1
2824 SSE Results (Nameless)
2825 Boss Battle Song 2
2826 Save Point
2827 SSE DK Jungle (Nameless)
2828 SSE Luigi Mansion (Nameless)
2829 Halberd Interior (Nameless)
282A SSE Data Select (Nameless)
282B SSE Brinstar (Nameless)
282C Step: Subspace Ver.2
282D Step: Subspace Ver.3
282E Halberd Moving (Nameless)
I used "Environmental Noises" for my Wifi Training Room. :)
 

zxeon

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 11, 2006
Messages
1,476
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana
I don't think you're attempting to troll, you're merely annoyed at what you perceive as people incorrectly defining something.


However, what you're doing is defining Brawl+ as "any usage of a any of a certain set of codes to hack smash" (or maybe over a certain number). In that sense, any project that fullfills that requirement is Brawl+.


The thing is, you're extending the term beyond both it's prescriptive and descriptive meaning. The project (Brawl+) defines itself as something with a specific design philosophy about how to make Brawl better, and the community does so as well. Brawl+ could be using completely different codes to achieve the same effect.


If the community decided that Brawl+ would mean that, you could claim that this is a Brawl+ project (since Brawl+ would be a reasonable catch-all for Brawl hacks, or ones using those codes), but then what would we call the specific project now refered to as Brawl+? If Brawl+ is a class of projects, by definition it cannot be the specific project with a specific define philosophy.

So, what is the name of this specific project if Brawl+ is a name for a class of projects?
"It's called Brawlplusery - Brawl+ Codeset". Like it says on the thread.
 

adumbrodeus

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 21, 2007
Messages
11,321
Location
Tri-state area
All of the questions you posed in this attempt at a clever response were just a horrid rebuttal where all you truly accomplished was trying to derail the true topic at hand. You know, as well as I know, the intentions of his post were incriminating the creators of BB by using the codes that we made for Brawl+ over time for their project. We aren't discussing the semantics and underlying theory of the name Brawl+, so either argue the point at hand or don't comment on it at all.



There is a profound difference here though. When its all the work that we put into our codes then being explicitly taken and reused, I think people have a right to voice their opinions as to the legitimacy of those actions. Taking our work and then removing the coders names on individual codes is outright offensive. I know while I might not have been an explicit coder for a lot of these codes, I spent many many hours debugging these codes before a lot of them were even released to the public. But given how you havent dedicated yourself to these projects like we have, I doubt you can relate.

Please don't defend this post here though, I don't want to fill BB's thread with Brawl+ rants again out of respect for Thinkaman and AA as they are both nice guys. If you want to discuss, PM me.
....

Wow, I don't know how it's possible to misread a post so thoroughly.


No, I make extremely fine points, and you need to actually, FOLLOW THE TRAIN OF LOGIC to understand what I'm saying.

You obviously just skimmed the post.


The post poses the question that "if Brawl+ is a specific class of projects, then what is the project that is commonly refered to as Brawl+"? In other words, it was a rebbuttal to Zxeon's arguement that this project is Brawl+.

"It's called Brawlplusery - Brawl+ Codeset". Like it says on the thread.
Not the thread name, what is the project inside the thread called? Because it can't be Brawl+ if Brawl+ is a class of projects.
 

Thinkaman

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
6,535
Location
Madison, WI
NNID
Thinkaman
3DS FC
1504-5749-3616
I definitely didn't like how you made two charges against me of being a bad player, which I'm not, changes like Temple are real problems, you can't deny that. And maybe I just suck against DDD Uthrow? Ever thought of that? Yeah, you didn't need to take a jab at me like that... completely what I didn't ask for in a response from someone who works on this.
This was not meant to be a personal attack, especially talking about DDD; I'm sorry you took it that was an apologize for my post. At worst, I meant the Temple comment as "c'mon, you know better". At any rate, there's no point arguing over Temple. It's Temple, and it's never going to be anything more than, at best, a novelty stage for teams.
 

Swordplay

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
1,716
Location
Chicago
I agree with falco400. and many other posters.

Pillar and Temple will never be viable stages. The new boundaries are terrible and there is nothing you can do.

I would rather have them the old way and banned from competitive play but at least I will be able to play them for fun in a non-competitive fashion without having to go back to VB.

And don't give me any crap. From what I understand, BB's goal is to increase viability, If something is not viable regardless then it shouldn't be changed.
 

Rykoshet

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 1, 2008
Messages
2,225
Location
No really, I quit.
I think you could do a sum in the op about what you already decided to change thx to the feedback... I was about to re-spam about the water =D

And I'm going to respam about the PAL version because the search fonction really sucks at searching. Is a trial version out ? I told you I intended to be a PAL tester D=
Yeah it's in there. It's on page 21 for me but I have maxed posts per page so this thread is only like 37 pages to me.
 

shanus

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Messages
6,055
Not the thread name, what is the project inside the thread called? Because it can't be Brawl+ if Brawl+ is a class of projects.
Brawl+ is one project. Thats why I called you out on your terrible semantic nonsense since it makes -zero- sense. I didn't just skim your post, I laughed it since it reeks of pure ignorance. We have had a unified codeset for ages now. It was called the Plusery back then when there were a ton of sets, and the thread title remained. I give you 10 special points!

Example, we wouldn't have things like this if Brawl+ wasn't a unified project:
http://brawlplus.net/


...
 

ffdgh

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
391
Location
Who cares
3DS FC
4768-8177-0708
>_> this has turned into a giant flame thread but whatever
been having a bit more fun with samus and charge shot impo is now her main killer for me
 

kupo15

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
7,002
Location
Playing Melee
There is a profound difference here though. When its all the work that we put into our codes then being explicitly taken and reused, I think people have a right to voice their opinions as to the legitimacy of those actions.
Why should it be questionable to use the same codes as b+? Did B+ not search the GSC boards for codes made by other coders who didn't support the project or had no interest to see if we could snatch codes for ourselves? Yes we did. Should b+ not have been allowed to share the same codes that was made for other projects? I see absolutely no reason why anyone can't take codes that are availble and use them for their own projects much like what B+ did. Yes, B+ did not have to really rely on sharing codes from other projects because of the generous hackers that made specifically for us, but we still have borrowed codes preB+ and even during the development of B+. The codes are already made, how do you expect someone to get a code they want if the code was already made and your not allowed to use it? Ask another coder to waste time making a code that was already made?

I know while I might not have been an explicit coder for a lot of these codes, I spent many many hours debugging these codes before a lot of them were even released to the public. But given how you havent dedicated yourself to these projects like we have, I doubt you can relate.
And how many hours were spent debugging things like the Gecko, file replacement, stage size mods and many other codes? How involved were we with the development of the Gecko project yet we are reaping the rewards from other's hard work?Did we not take advantage of the resources that were there whether or not they were specifically made for us? Lets put B+ in BBs shoes. If BB came first and had all the codes B+ currently has made for the purpose of BB, how would B+ feel if they were denied or restricted codes that B+ wanted? I just don't see how one could refuse to share codes especially given how blessed B+ was with its support. You don't have to extensively help them like B+ but codes shouldn't be hiden from th public eye seeing how B+ is an open source project and the codes are also open source. BB should have full right to use any codes made for B+ as long as credit is given for the hackers who spent the time making them


This is the impression I got from your post combined with what I saw in other places. Sorry if its incorrect
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
no

there are no copyrights on codes, but it is generally accepted that the makers kind of "own" the codes, sicne it's their work. things like switching values and calling it your own work, changing the codes name and leaving out credit for the code are considered very disrespecfull.

you must know that almost all codes in the B+ set are made with the purpose of being added to the B+ set in mind. this would lead the the indirect conclusion that a lot of codes are owned by the B+ project, which is ofcourse nonsense, but I would appreciated that AA and tinkaman had told us (the coders) that they were using our codes, and the name changes and leaving out the proper credit are somewhat unusual.

EDIT: shut up kupo. you never made a single code nor had any respect for their makers.
 

Shell

Flute-Fox Only
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
2,042
This is not a branch of Brawl+ nor is anything a branch of Brawl+ just because it uses codes. Even Kupo's set, which contained only small differences from the official set was not truely Brawl+, per se. zxeon, or anyone else, please don't mention this again. Let's drop the Brawl+ name semantics.

While the codes used in our project were made for us, everyone is free to use them unless stated by the author (in the possible case of PK's future throw mod, for example).

Finally, Amazing Ampharos, you really should add the authors' names to the individual codes on the txts in the OP and the hosted txt. This has been a very reasonable request from one of the authors, and I'm not really sure why you chose to remove them in the first place. Thank you.
 

kupo15

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
7,002
Location
Playing Melee
EDIT: shut up kupo.
Shut up PK. Wanting your new codes kept from BB is flat out ********. I was shocked when I read that. Flat out attempting to monopolize the codes is the most selfish thing I read. Why would you do that? What are you afraid of by sharing your codes with BB?

you never made a single code
So what. I sure as hell spent a **** load of time researching, debugging and tweaking codes to make them work nicely as well as being a major project organizer before you ever came on the scene. Whether you choose to believe it or not, I was a long time, contributor and really helped progress b+ despite not having the ability to make codes.

nor had any respect for their makers.
Yea....ok :laugh:
 
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