Balanced Brawl Public Preview *GENESIS UPDATE*

[Thinkaman]

I hope this question hasn't been addressed, but i did try searching this thread for it....

Why were damage taken away from Wario's fsmash and uair, but not knockback on either.
-This seems weird because of the top3 characters, Wario is fundamentally the same, whereas Snake needs to use ftilt less (so it goes undiminished) or more aerials for KOs and MK got his dsmash and shuttle loop reduced. Wario's don't use fsmash, especially, to rack up damage, they use it to kill.

Damage is intrinsically tied to knockback growth (that is, how knockback scales with damage). I dont know why they didnt just nerf the KBG directly), but nerfing damage is one way to go about doing it.

Correct. This change *is* intended to limit Wario's KO power a bit, and it really does.

We chose to nerf damage AND knockback because Wario can use these moves for damage racking if many matchups; f-smash's super armor lets it trade with other moves easily, and it does 19%! Even if Wario does 19% to you and you do 25% to him... He still wins because he lives longer than almost everyone. As for uair, name an aerial in the game that is as easy to position and hit with, yet does 17%.

I'm sorry. Why would you ask for character specific discussion when the characters (most of them) are fundementally the same.

Like the metagame for the heavy majority of the cast is unchanged, and if altered, you only need to adapt to a few changes. There are no more than 10 charaters you have to adapt, and no more than 5 you have to "relearn".

Most of the metagame of the roster carries over like THAT to BBrawl. You'd essentially be discussing pretty much the same thing in the Brawl character boards, sans the small slew of changes and some match adjustments.

That's just me. I'm for a sticky of this thread, but character discussion seems near fruitless considering what BBrawl is trying to do.

I'm going to agree with this. The only exceptions:
-If anyone does a lot of study on DDD, Falco, or Pikachu's new grabs, a topic postign and discussing these findings would be justified.
-Ganondorf might deserve his own topic.
-I might be interested in running an all-character matchup thread for BBrawl.
-If this becomes more widespread, a stage legality topic might also happen.

Otherwise, discussion can stick to this thread and existing character boards, since by design as little as possible has been changed.

 

[GHNeko]

Point 1 would be merged. 2 and 3, if happen, should co-exist in the same thread. Point 4 is legit and that wouldnt suck at all. <3

 

[5ive]

I also call for a sticky and character discussion threads.
Its not very efficient getting feedback on every character and other changes all in one thread. So I took the liberty of making a Balanced Yoshi discussion thread as a place to provide feedback on Yoshi in Balanced Brawl.
I hope other character mains also do so.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7793723http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7793723#post7793723

As you've been told, the character discussion was originally made for Brawl+ character discussion; BBrawl character discussion doesn't belong there.

Seriously we need a separate board for BBrawl character discussions... I mean this board was made for B+ characters at first, and was meant to separate the discussions from vBrawl's. And putting character discussion threads from different projects in the same board is stupid. I am not saying that you can't discuss, but it will be a mess if both BBrawl and B+ character threads are posted here. You might consider starting the discussion in the vBrawl Yoshi board, seeing that only a few changes has been made to the characters in BBrawl, like what the Ness board do. Maybe later we'll have a separate board for BBrawl, but for now posting the in the vBrawl character boards seems to be a better choice.

 

[GHNeko]

BBrawl doesnt even warrent its own board because it strives to be minimalistic as possible making only character balance changes deemed necessary enough.

If BBrawl reaches a point where it does warrent its own board and its own character discussion sub forum. They would have broken their own rules.

By the end of BBrawl. It will be Brawl, but balanced. Meaning that it still wouldnt warrent its own anything besides workshop threads because you could literally pull 95% of the strats and new metagame from the existing character boards for Brawl.

:V

 

[auroreon]

I'm sorry. Why would you ask for character specific discussion when the characters (most of them) are fundementally the same.

Like the metagame for the heavy majority of the cast is unchanged, and if altered, you only need to adapt to a few changes. There are no more than 10 charaters you have to adapt, and no more than 5 you have to "relearn".

Most of the metagame of the roster carries over like THAT to BBrawl. You'd essentially be discussing pretty much the same thing in the Brawl character boards, sans the small slew of changes and some match adjustments.

That's just me. I'm for a sticky of this thread, but character discussion seems near fruitless considering what BBrawl is trying to do.

:V

As you've been told, the character discussion was originally made for Brawl+ character discussion; BBrawl character discussion doesn't belong there.

The purpose of character discussion threads for BBrawl is different to what is discussed in the vBrawl character forums. I made the thread to provide a place to give feedback on Yoshi in BBrawl, not to discuss how to play him.
Having all the feedback on the changes to every character in one thread just makes things cluttered and valid points are missed. By making a thread to discuss the how effective the changes to a character are and getting input from people who actually main the characters and completely understand how they work and their strengths and weaknesses, hopefully the developers can get a better idea of how to progress with the project.

Oh and also, the board is titled "Smash Workshop: Character Discussion", not "Brawl+ Character Discussion". IT nowhere states that the board is solely for the disucssion of characters in Brawl+.

 

[JOE!]

Anybody do Boozer vs IC's yet?

I mena, they still have their infanate...so it might as well still be like 80:20

 

[GwJ]

Is the IC CG harder to do in BBrawl?

 

[Revven]

If Brawl+ers were able to deal with discussing characters in ONE thread for 4-5 months, BBrawl can do it the whole way through.

Also, yes the Smash Workshop: Character Discussion forum IS only for Brawl+. We asked for it, Almas moderates it and gets rid of anything there that doesn't pertain to Brawl+ characters. Don't be surprised if your thread there gets trashed eventually. (Assuming you did create one there, which by the sounds of things is the case).

It makes literally no sense to lump both projects in the SAME character forum, that's DOUBLE the amount of threads and DOUBLE the amount of ridiculousness. BBrawl doesn't need its own threads... seriously... (at least not for every character) it really isn't much different from regular Brawl so WHY? Why can't you JUST make a thread in the existing character Brawl discussion forums entitled "BBrawl: Yoshi Discussion" instead of causing clutter in the Smash Workshop character discussion board? (Which was made specifically with Brawl+ in mind). Obviously Brawl+ couldn't do what BBrawl can for character discussion BECAUSE Brawl+ is completely different from the two while BBrawl is nearly identical to regular Brawl.

It makes absolutely no sense, at all, to create a new thread for each character just for BBrawl. Take it to the already existing boards or even here for that matter. Again, if Brawl+ers were able to deal with discussing characters in ONE thread for 4-5 months (including buffs and nerfs) BBrawlers can too, no excuses, no johns.

 

[GHNeko]

That does not warrant character threads imo.

As character threads are supposed to discuss everything about a character. Even for feedback purposes. :V

There are characters that would only get little feed back because of the lack of changes. There are even characters that wont get feed back because they play exactly the same. :V

 

[5ive]

The purpose of character discussion threads for BBrawl is different to what is discussed in the vBrawl character forums. I made the thread to provide a place to give feedback on Yoshi in BBrawl, not to discuss how to play him.
Having all the feedback on the changes to every character in one thread just makes things cluttered and valid points are missed. By making a thread to discuss the how effective the changes to a character are and getting input from people who actually main the characters and completely understand how they work and their strengths and weaknesses, hopefully the developers can get a better idea of how to progress with the project.

Oh and also, the board is titled "Smash Workshop: Character Discussion", not "Brawl+ Character Discussion". IT nowhere states that the board is solely for the disucssion of characters in Brawl+.

If clutter is the issue, why clutter the character discussion? You really should of notified someone before you made that thread; not only is it not needed, but discussion of feedback was asked to be placed in this thread. It isn't the Brawl+er's fault that points are being missed. If we could do it, Balanced Brawl can do it too. Unless a mod makes a Balanced Brawl character discussion, things like that should be kept to this thread. Though I remind you making a BB Character discussion pretty much defeats the purpose of this project.

And to my understanding, the character section WAS indeed intended for Brawl+. Again, out of courtesy, you should've asked first. I'd advise you to request a lock.

That does not warrant character threads imo.

As character threads are supposed to discuss everything about a character. Even for feedback purposes. :V

There are characters that would only get little feed back because of the lack of changes. There are even characters that wont get feed back because they play exactly the same. :V

Not to mention the characters that won't get feed back just because no one plays them.

Spoiler

lolyoshi

 

[GHNeko]

Workshop character discussion was created solely for Brawl+. The name might not say Brawl+, but it was indeed made for Brawl+.

I mean, AllisBrawl is called all is Brawl, but they have a SSB64 online ladder and Melee discussion there. :V

 

[Thinkaman]

Is the IC CG harder to do in BBrawl?

Nope. Can't change throws.

There are characters that would only get little feed back because of the lack of changes. There are even characters that wont get feed back because they play exactly the same. :V

I don't see character threads as being an issue. (As in, I do not think they are needed.)

However, I'm going to play devil's advocate and point out that what you are saying is very short-sighted design. It takes two to tango, and changes to most of the cast will impact the matchups of unchanged characters. Then you have potential second-generation changes rippling out, although these should be subtle if we have done our job right. On top of all of this, expanded stage legality is a huge concern for many characters.

Olimar is a huge example, as he is impacted by a lot of outside changes. A lot of his worst matchups now have tools to deal with him, requiring more careful play. On top of this, Olimar has simply *amazing* counter-pick stages that can now be legal. While again I'll say I don't think we need individual character topics, there is certainly no shortage of discussion that could be had for Olimar, or any other character... "unchanged" or not.

 

[kupo15]

Why not discuss both games in the same character thread? The first post is the B+ stuff and the second is the BB stuff. This won't add to clutter

 

[Sakuraba Neku]

kupo, do you have any idea how confusing that would be >.>.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

i agree that this thread should be stickied. i also agree that the bbrawl char threads should be done in the exisitng vbrawl forums. we are going to get the majority of our feedback from non brawl people. i think that we should start a thread in every character forum talking about the project, listing the current changes for that char, then opening up discussion for further changes.

 

[Brinzy]

Why not discuss both games in the same character thread? The first post is the B+ stuff and the second is the BB stuff. This won't add to clutter

Anything but this.

 

[Thinkaman]

Why not discuss both games in the same character thread? The first post is the B+ stuff and the second is the BB stuff. This won't add to clutter

No offense, but this is an awful idea.

If clutter is the issue, why clutter the character discussion? You really should of notified someone before you made that thread; not only is it not needed, but discussion of feedback was asked to be placed in this thread. It isn't the Brawl+er's fault that points are being missed. If we could do it, Balanced Brawl can do it too. Unless a mod makes a Balanced Brawl character discussion, things like that should be kept to this thread. Though I remind you making a BB Character discussion pretty much defeats the purpose of this project.

And to my understanding, the character section WAS indeed intended for Brawl+. Again, out of courtesy, you should've asked first. I'd advise you to request a lock.

I do wish discussion was kept in this thread, and it is trouble for us to have to search for these different threads... however, I wouldn't go so far as to say ill-intent was caused by this person or any rules were broken. I would suggest it be locked.

Not to mention the characters that won't get feed back just because no one plays them.

Spoiler

lolyoshi

Actually we've gotten a ton of Yoshi feedback, he's pretty popular. He's no Ike, but he's probably in the top 8 characters people are playing.

If you guys want my personal preference for what to do? I'd prefer the main thread to be in Brawl Tactical, and any character mains who feel a full discussion thread is warranted should make a single thread on their character sub-forum and inform the main topic. Maybe others disagree, but I don't think this is the right place for this discussion; I would prefer to be a "footnote" on the primary boards than crowding up things here.

 

[Revven]

Nope. Can't change throws.



I don't see character threads as being an issue. (As in, I do not think they are needed.)

However, I'm going to play devil's advocate and point out that what you are saying is very short-sighted design. It takes two to tango, and changes to most of the cast will impact the matchups of unchanged characters. Then you have potential second-generation changes rippling out, although these should be subtle if we have done our job right. On top of all of this, expanded stage legality is a huge concern for many characters.

Olimar is a huge example, as he is impacted by a lot of outside changes. A lot of his worst matchups now have tools to deal with him, requiring more careful play. On top of this, Olimar has simply *amazing* counter-pick stages that can now be legal. While again I'll say I don't think we need individual character topics, there is certainly no shortage of discussion that could be had for Olimar, or any other character... "unchanged" or not.

Oh no, we understand the match-up changes, it's just that right now you guys mostly just want feedback on the characters seeing as this is a "preview" and that not everything will stay the same or some things may change in the next release or something. It's just that, some characters won't have as many match-up differences as say someone who received more changes than that character. Compared to Brawl+, BBrawl doesn't change as much, so it kind of makes sense to push the BBrawl threads in their respective Brawl character boards (for advertisement + feedback).

Why not discuss both games in the same character thread? The first post is the B+ stuff and the second is the BB stuff. This won't add to clutter

That would create even more clutter. One person could be talking about Brawl+ Mario while someone else could argue against that guy, not knowing he was talking about Brawl+ Mario and argue with him about BBrawl Mario thinking that's who he is talking about. Oh, look at that, it's already confusing and I just described the situation. You know that's a terrible idea, just like it was to put your code set in the Weekly Build Thread... (when you still updated it) sure, not much discussion there, but when there was it got in the way a lot of the time (to be completely honest with you).

 

[GHNeko]

I don't see character threads as being an issue. (As in, I do not think they are needed.)

However, I'm going to play devil's advocate and point out that what you are saying is very short-sighted design. It takes two to tango, and changes to most of the cast will impact the matchups of unchanged characters. Then you have potential second-generation changes rippling out, although these should be subtle if we have done our job right. On top of all of this, expanded stage legality is a huge concern for many characters.

Olimar is a huge example, as he is impacted by a lot of outside changes. A lot of his worst matchups now have tools to deal with him, requiring more careful play. On top of this, Olimar has simply *amazing* counter-pick stages that can now be legal. While again I'll say I don't think we need individual character topics, there is certainly no shortage of discussion that could be had for Olimar, or any other character... "unchanged" or not.

I see what you're saying. I had completely missed that. :V

But would the content in changes brought about by such changes bring enough content for an actual legit character thread? The most that would be talked about would be a character match ups for a few characters, mayble almost a handful, and 4-5 new stages and if they are Pro-Advantages or Anti-Advantaged. Things like those tend to only last for x amount of time before they are considered solidified and really shouldnt be discussed again until a change in metagame.

Even though Brawl is still evolving, albeit slowly, in metagame. At this point, we generally know most of everything about every character. So the most that would come from a thread is shift in matchups and new CPs. Onces that is set in stone by the character's mains. What would be left to discuss?

I believe discussion for such things can happen either here or in the Brawl character boards. Hell, it'd probably be the smarter choice to converse with people there as Brawl and BBrawl is really the same game as opposed to B+ and Brawl.

But that's just me.

And I know you're being an advocate. <3

 

[auroreon]

Look, Guys, I can see what you are all saying.
I agree, the workshop character discussion may not be the place to put the thread, if the board is solely for the discussion of Brawl+. Don't you think that Brawl+ Character Discussion would have been a more discriptive and clear name? But thats not the point here.
I still think the creation of character discussion threads for BBrawl is a good idea. A lot of you are arguing that they are unessesary because the character hasn't changed much... but that really isn't relevent as the purpose of the thread is to provide a place where you can easily find all the input from people who actually main the character and fully understand how they are played and how best to balance them.
Having all the feedback in this single thread means a lot of it is skipped over or missed, having it all viewable in one place without having to look through dozens of pages in one thread seems like a much more effecient solution to me.

Maybe I put the thread in the wrong place, if so then I appologize.

 

[GHNeko]

Use the Normal Brawl character boards then. That way you have all the mains in a single place talking about a character they could literally pick up and already master while adapting to like 2 changes.

Simple.

 

[ffdgh]

lol auro
we need to hold back on the character threads for one main reason....
For when the Official version of bbrawl comes out,
Then we need to work on the actual discussions lol
just throwing that out there

and sticky ftw!

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I'm gonna re-ask this.

Can we have Falco's throwing lasers stop momentum? It would restore his grabgame by making uthrow and bthrow usefull for laying traps. Also Dthrow wouldn't be a problem with the new lag and I think the opponent will end up laying on the ground, making Falco's downthrow a techchase option (always nice)

 

[hankydysplasia]

It takes two to tango, and changes to most of the cast will impact the matchups of unchanged characters.

Which is why I would like to hear the ROB players or anyone else respond to this post on page 93.

I'm gonna re-ask this.

Can we have Falco's throwing lasers stop momentum? It would restore his grabgame by making uthrow and bthrow usefull for laying traps. Also Dthrow wouldn't be a problem with the new lag and I think the opponent will end up laying on the ground, making Falco's downthrow a techchase option (always nice)

I second another change to the way Falco's throw's are working. B-Throw is uncomfortable.

 

[Pierce7d]

I think that the best suggestion by far is to simply create the character threads for the bBrawl characters in the regular Brawl discussions. One thread per character on the NEEDED characters is more than sufficient.

A) This way, you are not in any area that is in danger of being cluttered
B) You can also have a link to this thread in the OP, which will vastly spread this game and it's popularity for all those who are interested.

I had a lot to say, but before I make a huge post, I'll drop this one quick note. You could always simply increase the power of Zelda's sourspot Dair without making it sweetspot enemies on the ground. This makes it viable regardless, and really does help in a lot of problem match-ups. If you can make it trip, even better. That would greatly bolster Zelda's approach game if she were to gain a slow aerial that was weak, but reliably tripped.

 

[Almas]

I guess I should finally get around to this.

I won't be stickying this thread. It's not out of any dissaproval for the project, but I don't see the point in stickying a thread that'll be perma bumped anyway. I note that there may be signs of hypocrisy due to the fact that a couple of often-posted Brawl+ threads are up there, but in fairness I didn't sticky the active ones ;p. If you ever produce a thread which is important but has a low post rate, I'll happily sticky it for you.

You're right, it does say character discussion. And it was created with Brawl+ in mind. In fact, the main motivating factor behind making the Smash Workshop and Workshop Backroom was Brawl+. They all don't have Brawl+ in the name for the reason that Smashboards doesn't want to affiliate itself with the project that clearly. However, trying to restrict other people from posting on this basis is silly - I'm sure if Balanced Brawl were as developed a project as Brawl+, a board would have been considered in its honour.
Also to consider is that many Character Board Mods don't appreciate threads about modded characters on their board. I know that when Brawl+ was kicking up people wanted a thread for their character, and it ended up causing a lot of hassle. As such, I'm not going to delete any threads started regarding Balanced Brawl on that board, provided they obey the rules in place for the board. Of course, I'm going to be a bit miffed if I see 30 more threads popping up for the characters who have not been fundamentally changed. And I am somewhat offended that a thread was started without taking the courtesy of asking, especially from you, Auroreon.

I recommend that Ampharos talk to the Staff about what the best home would be for such threads is, though. Perhaps people will be less frustrated by threads more closely related to Brawl, especially on the boards of less popular characters.

There seems to be some frustration that BB and B+ are rival projects, or that some methods/changes have been stolen from each other at times. I'm not quite sure why. The projects are fundamentally different and I don't see them having to rival each other so much. Of course, I have to say that I'm in the group of people who doesn't quite understand BB because we believe Brawl has a fundamentally flawed engine/playstyle that must be fixed before it can be balanced. But I guess I shouldn't get into that ;p. I do fully support your project (it's existance somewhat renders vBrawl obsolete, provided it is well maintained and fairly worked upon), and I think that others should too. I see no reason for why when an overlap of code contributions is possible it should not be encouraged. For example, there exist codes such as the Death Boundary Modifier which could be used to make many more stages counterpick-viable, which remain somewhat untapped for questionable reasons.

There is a Throw Modifier Code which we believe is more or less complete. Whether or not it (and the means of writing the data code) is shared is the coder's choice, and while I certainly think it should be, I will not be providing it unless it is done with permission. Creating a hostile environment is a bad idea. If and when I finally get around to finishing my optimization of certain codes, I will be sharing their design with others.

/wall of text. I forgot something. Who cares, noone will read this anyway.

 

[Steeler]

yes, creating a thread in the current character discussion boards seems like by far the best idea to me. even characters like dk or olimar would benefit from a thread.

 

[Boofy!]

I think that the best suggestion by far is to simply create the character threads for the bBrawl characters in the regular Brawl discussions. One thread per character on the NEEDED characters is more than sufficient.

A) This way, you are not in any area that is in danger of being cluttered
B) You can also have a link to this thread in the OP, which will vastly spread this game and it's popularity for all those who are interested.

I approve this message

 

[Rykoshet]

Sorry to rehash it but did a PAL codeset or gct get released?

 

[Rykoshet]

I guess I should finally get around to this.

I won't be stickying this thread. It's not out of any dissaproval for the project, but I don't see the point in stickying a thread that'll be perma bumped anyway. I note that there may be signs of hypocrisy due to the fact that a couple of often-posted Brawl+ threads are up there, but in fairness I didn't sticky the active ones ;p. If you ever produce a thread which is important but has a low post rate, I'll happily sticky it for you.

You're right, it does say character discussion. And it was created with Brawl+ in mind. In fact, the main motivating factor behind making the Smash Workshop and Workshop Backroom was Brawl+. They all don't have Brawl+ in the name for the reason that Smashboards doesn't want to affiliate itself with the project that clearly. However, trying to restrict other people from posting on this basis is silly - I'm sure if Balanced Brawl were as developed a project as Brawl+, a board would have been considered in its honour.
Also to consider is that many Character Board Mods don't appreciate threads about modded characters on their board. I know that when Brawl+ was kicking up people wanted a thread for their character, and it ended up causing a lot of hassle. As such, I'm not going to delete any threads started regarding Balanced Brawl on that board, provided they obey the rules in place for the board. Of course, I'm going to be a bit miffed if I see 30 more threads popping up for the characters who have not been fundamentally changed. And I am somewhat offended that a thread was started without taking the courtesy of asking, especially from you, Auroreon.

I recommend that Ampharos talk to the Staff about what the best home would be for such threads is, though. Perhaps people will be less frustrated by threads more closely related to Brawl, especially on the boards of less popular characters.

There seems to be some frustration that BB and B+ are rival projects, or that some methods/changes have been stolen from each other at times. I'm not quite sure why. The projects are fundamentally different and I don't see them having to rival each other so much. Of course, I have to say that I'm in the group of people who doesn't quite understand BB because we believe Brawl has a fundamentally flawed engine/playstyle that must be fixed before it can be balanced. But I guess I shouldn't get into that ;p. I do fully support your project (it's existance somewhat renders vBrawl obsolete, provided it is well maintained and fairly worked upon), and I think that others should too. I see no reason for why when an overlap of code contributions is possible it should not be encouraged. For example, there exist codes such as the Death Boundary Modifier which could be used to make many more stages counterpick-viable, which remain somewhat untapped for questionable reasons.

There is a Throw Modifier Code which we believe is more or less complete. Whether or not it (and the means of writing the data code) is shared is the coder's choice, and while I certainly think it should be, I will not be providing it unless it is done with permission. Creating a hostile environment is a bad idea. If and when I finally get around to finishing my optimization of certain codes, I will be sharing their design with others.

/wall of text. I forgot something. Who cares, noone will read this anyway.

sorry for the double post but I want you to know that all of your posts have been read by the people seeking out to actually make this game what you seek it out to be and notjust something that panders to their character (hypocritical of me to say I guess since the only thing i wanted for my charcter I got and but I have suggested downgrades to ike too), dont get down by the peoplw who post without reading, I keep up with every page of this thread

 

[Pierce7d]

Just a suggestion, Marth's Back Throw should have a buff. It only does 4% and has like no knockback, one of these should change. It's completely useless now since Down Throw outclasses it in damage and knockback, and sends opponents in the same direction.

Just something to think about.

This is a fair suggestion. However, throws cannot be altered. I'd say if Marth was found to be underpowered in this new game, I would say buff Dair, and possibly Dash attack. Pummel only if severely overpowered. Everything else is perfect as is though. I've played Marth in this game, and he ***** just the same. Wario is probably harder, but I would guess that it's just even now. MK AND Snake are easier, so it's just D3 that's a negative now (since DK and R.O.B. [the are both within 5 points of Marth either way] didn't see any buffs, and I've always considered Wolf to be slight advantage to Marth.) All and all, people that got buffs can fight Marth now, but don't threaten to overpower him. It's possible Link contends better, and Mario may go more even now. Yoshi is impossible to kill without tipping, but you still control the match. I daresay Ike vs. Marth is the funnest match in the game. Ryko and I were having the time of our lives.

But I digress. No, I daresay Marth ought to remain the same for now. Any buffs on him would make him the new MK of this game I would fathom to guess. Besides, R00kie is already breathing down my neck saying that any character with Dolphin Slash needs to have -9001 on all their other moves

bThrow sets up different tippers.

I've seen you post lots of reasonable stuff about Link, but you clearly don't know Marth in Brawl. Bthrow is a useless move. It sets up nothing, it has more lag than Dthrow, dthrow is completely and utterly better.

EDIT:

Back to Ike. Then I think it should be buffed. Base Knockback by 5 and damage +2 for the first hit only?

It needs to hit fast enough so that Olimar just can't block it on reaction to the move. As such it'll need to be the slowest option that's below frame 8 (tourney class reaction time). Frame 7 seems like it fits the bill. It doesn't need to be +2 stronger with +5 more base knockback. Just give it one more damage to make it a respectable move that puts the small annoyances where Ike wants them.

Olimar will always be a problem match-up for Ike due to the natures of these characters strategies. However, I would wait and see how quick draw affects the match-up first. Ike players never fail to surprise me with their creativity. I am aware that a Pikman toss will end Quick Draw short. We'll see. Remember, Ike may have a 0 - death on Olimar if he gets a grab. Cross-ups on Olimar are generally effective, though pivot grabbing is perhaps the greatest nuisunce of all time. Perhaps Nair is the best route . . . we'll see.

No, Links d-tilt would be impossible to hit with because of ASL.

Fixing his recovery would require physics changes and they won't do that.

Once again, after you play Link for a while and realize little things.....ex/ (such as he pivot boosts almost as fast as his dash).....and learn all his AT's......You'll realize he is one of the best. I'd say in terms of learning curve, he has one of the 5 hardest in the game easily........

* I am going to be straight up honest, I think some of his other buffs such as the spin attack buff ended up being MUCH more important and game changing than arrows......I've been using them for a while now and I don't still that much "greatness" in them. They are only good when charging situations occur and spamming/using uncharged arrows always results in punishment unless you are arrow canceling. These things are WAY overrated. It's his other buffs are what REALLY brought him up to par. Read my other posts........ *

Yes and no. I play a competent Link, I can use his ATs fairly reliably. I have studied his ways. In vBrawl, Link's ATs DO NOT fix his underlying flaws and weaknesses. I enjoy the new Link, and he is very good. He still maintains the high learning curve though! I also agree that spin attack >>>> arrows.

WARNING: Really long post ahead!! O_O

Stuff about Falco pt1

Once again, yes and no. Falco 's underlying strategy is extremely good, which is why he's top tier in vBrawl. He did not lose this strategy at all, he still has broken lasers, jab, spot dodge, and escape. However, I want to see how he interacts with buffed characters, especially having lost the chaingrab, before I would further cripple Falco.

Stuff about Falco pt2

Dair does in fact combo, however it should rarely combo into itself on the vast majority of characters. I would suggest you work on improving your DI.

Stuff about Falco pt3

I wouldn't nerf damage on any move of Falco's, except possible Phantasm. IMO, he gains too much of a reward for using a broken escape move. That is all.

Reading some of the match-ups, my suggestions may only really give Falco problems dealing with Marth and G&W - mainly since they have the range and priority to actually threaten Falco.

I am able to fight competent Falco's with Mario in vBrawl. Surely, with no chaingrab, and Mario being buffed, I feel that at the very least, I have discovered one character who was not previously high tiered or considered viable, who stands a potential chance of having a positive match-up. Let's not forget I main Marth, and also have a skilled G&W. I would recommend waiting and seeing before any further changes to Falco.
--------------------

I'm starting to think Captain Falcon's knee really was over-buffed. Not that big of a deal first, my opponent is extremely good with Falcon, meaning he can land those knees often, meaning he was KO'ing me as early as 65%+ from the middle of the stage. Strangely enough he only slightly picked up on it. I don't think buffing it was a bad idea, but I think boosting it to 24% turned into an absolute monster. Perhaps a slight decrease to 21% may be more of a modest buff. Another idea could be giving a damage buff to the sourspot knee as supposed to the buff towards the sweetspot knee. Just an idea. Outside of that though I would say Falcon's currently quite good due to having an easier time setting up opponents for aerial juggles.

At first, I thought so too, and then realized, why in the world should anyone ever sweetspot this move. Furthermore, you can SDI it pretty well. While it gives Falcon a good tech-chase reward, it's really similar to Zelda's Fair in most regards. I think it's good as is, considering how hard it is to land and that Falcon has no business using such an unreliable move in the first place. I would nerf weak knee to balance it if you truly feel it's too strong. Make weak knee more unsafe on hit.
-------------------
Stuff about Fox

I think that the current way of going about Fox is brilliant. I take my credibility from experience, especially since many players (especially on the East Coast) consider R00kie to be the best Fox, and he's my crew mate. I very often find that Fox players are, as I like to say, doing it wrong. Perhaps, without as much broken stuff breaking their spirit, Foxes will be able to collect themselves, and reanalyze how to properly make use of their character. Cross-up game is very under-developed here, especially since Fox relies on a lot of hit and run. Fox is a pretty unique character, and I greatly like his build. While I do forsee a few buffs in the future, let's give him a chance like this first. If anything, +1 to shine and Nair is good for now.
-----------------
Stuff about Wolf

This is an extremely competent character who, like Fox, suffered from very bad match-ups do to really dumb locks, combos and chaingrabs. I would definitely wait and see how this character performs now that he is free of these things.

------------------------
Stuff about Pikachu

This I mostly agree with, not the buffs themselves (I haven't looked you recommendations in detail) but the fact that Pikachu seems severely injured and underpowered in this new game. We need more data.

-------------------

Stuff about R.O.B.

Personally, I would just give R.O.B.s Usmash +2, and see what happens.

------------------------

Ganon STILL needs buffing unfortunately.

This

===================

My comments on this post are in bold.

BBrawl doesnt even warrent its own board because it strives to be minimalistic as possible making only character balance changes deemed necessary enough.

If BBrawl reaches a point where it does warrent its own board and its own character discussion sub forum. They would have broken their own rules.

By the end of BBrawl. It will be Brawl, but balanced. Meaning that it still wouldnt warrent its own anything besides workshop threads because you could literally pull 95% of the strats and new metagame from the existing character boards for Brawl.

:V

I would say that's rather silly. The act of balancing the game and changing match-ups most certainly dedicates that it is quite different. However, the transition is as seemless as possible. We aren't aiming for the same game, merely a seemless transition. Obviously when you are targeting character weaknesses, and you have new, more viable moves, match-ups and play styles change. I'm guess there are all sorts of new, match-up specific combos even, that have yet to be discovered.

Correct. This change *is* intended to limit Wario's KO power a bit, and it really does.

We chose to nerf damage AND knockback because Wario can use these moves for damage racking if many matchups; f-smash's super armor lets it trade with other moves easily, and it does 19%! Even if Wario does 19% to you and you do 25% to him... He still wins because he lives longer than almost everyone. As for uair, name an aerial in the game that is as easy to position and hit with, yet does 17%.



I'm going to agree with this. The only exceptions:
-If anyone does a lot of study on DDD, Falco, or Pikachu's new grabs, a topic postign and discussing these findings would be justified.
-Ganondorf might deserve his own topic.
-I might be interested in running an all-character matchup thread for BBrawl.
-If this becomes more widespread, a stage legality topic might also happen.

Otherwise, discussion can stick to this thread and existing character boards, since by design as little as possible has been changed.

I would say that you're going about this the right way.

Well said post

sorry for the double post but I want you to know that all of your posts have been read by the people seeking out to actually make this game what you seek it out to be and notjust something that panders to their character (hypocritical of me to say I guess since the only thing i wanted for my charcter I got and but I have suggested downgrades to ike too), dont get down by the peoplw who post without reading, I keep up with every page of this thread

Basically, this

 

[GHNeko]

I would say that's rather silly. The act of balancing the game and changing match-ups most certainly dedicates that it is quite different. However, the transition is as seemless as possible. We aren't aiming for the same game, merely a seemless transition. Obviously when you are targeting character weaknesses, and you have new, more viable moves, match-ups and play styles change. I'm guess there are all sorts of new, match-up specific combos even, that have yet to be discovered.

I meant the same in a general perspective. The only thing changes in BBrawl is match ups and viable stages (and what exploits can be used). The game is still fundamentally the same besides what I just said.

Once the match ups are re-evaluated and solidified, youll be at the same point that Brawl is right now without the gay stuff. :V

You can easily argue that BBrawl and Brawl are pretty much clones with a small amount of discrepancies. :V

The fact that you can seamlessly move from one to the other between Brawl and BBrawl shows how similar they are to each other. V:

I mean yea. They're different when you dig down into specifics IE character matchups, stage viability, and exploits, but when you compare them side by side, they become identical way before B+, Melee, and 64 as you broaden the comparisons. V:

 

[Thinkaman]

I meant the same in a general perspective. The only thing changes in BBrawl is match ups and viable stages (and what exploits can be used). The game is still fundamentally the same besides what I just said.

I would argue that there is no game besides what you just said.

I'm not entirely sure what it is you are trying to justify though.

Almas, thanks for your post. I suspect that low-tier character boards are very likely to at minimum tolerate a single BBrawl topic that someone in their community saw fit to make. (The Ness board tried this it seems, and things seem to have gone well even if premature.) Nothing needs to be decided soon, and I am waiting on Ampharos and the rest of the powers that be to make their decisions concerning the logical posting fate of this.

Also, thanks for your continued good posts Pierce.

Finally, ANYONE have Samus input? Falcon, ROB, and Jigglypuff data is also more than welcome.

 

[ffdgh]

heres my basic input on samus
shes a damage racker now and the smash buffs improve her overall character and does her netural b charge faster? lol it seems like that got a buff too

 

[Swordplay]

I would argue that there is no game besides what you just said.

I'm not entirely sure what it is you are trying to justify though.

Almas, thanks for your post. I suspect that low-tier character boards are very likely to at minimum tolerate a single BBrawl topic that someone in their community saw fit to make. (The Ness board tried this it seems, and things seem to have gone well even if premature.) Nothing needs to be decided soon, and I am waiting on Ampharos and the rest of the powers that be to make their decisions concerning the logical posting fate of this.

Also, thanks for your continued good posts Pierce.

Finally, ANYONE have Samus input? Falcon, ROB, and Jigglypuff data is also more than welcome.

Alright alright....

Samus.......

I still play samus like a spacer, projectiles and zair in BB.

that said, GTFO moves are important to her. Smash's are finally impressive and can be used but I think as a damage racking character, she needs a GTFO move with lots of damage.

I would recommend increasing the damage of screw attack and see what happens. (if the ID's are different, the grounded one.) (1-2% overall)

Samus racks damage at range finally to be competent for killing but I think she needs and lacks this. at close range and its really not so hard to approach her. She's almost like Link but with no disjointed sword so that's why I think the GTFO is so important.

Plus, Samus has THE WORST ROLL IN THE GAME. She is also VERY FLOATY thus SHADing is also somewhat punishable. Thank good she can zair out of AD or she sould be screwed. She needs something to deal with extreme pressure as its easy to overwhelm her.

I haven't played Samus a ton in BB, just a little bit. But those are my initial thoughts.

Suggestions/comments????

 

[Anomilus]

Dair does in fact combo, however it should rarely combo into itself on the vast majority of characters. I would suggest you work on improving your DI.

Maybe, but then again the way my opponent uses I gotta wonder if I can even DI it fast enough. It's not like he directly leaps over me and comes down on with it. The shorthopped version comes out darn fast. I mean it could just as easily be me...

I am able to fight competent Falco's with Mario in vBrawl. Surely, with no chaingrab, and Mario being buffed, I feel that at the very least, I have discovered one character who was not previously high tiered or considered viable, who stands a potential chance of having a positive match-up. Let's not forget I main Marth, and also have a skilled G&W. I would recommend waiting and seeing before any further changes to Falco.

Well this was mainly based on what I've read regarding those match-ups. I don't really play much Falco myself. I just have to deal with fighting a really good one. (which I tend not to like... =/ )

At first, I thought so too, and then realized, why in the world should anyone ever sweetspot this move.

I think this myself as I'm flying across the stage to my death... =(

I could always work on trying to predict and avoid it, but I only can go so far with that. My opponent still ends up be freakishly accurate with that sweetspot....

I think that the current way of going about Fox is brilliant. I take my credibility from experience, especially since many players (especially on the East Coast) consider R00kie to be the best Fox, and he's my crew mate. I very often find that Fox players are, as I like to say, doing it wrong. Perhaps, without as much broken stuff breaking their spirit, Foxes will be able to collect themselves, and reanalyze how to properly make use of their character. Cross-up game is very under-developed here, especially since Fox relies on a lot of hit and run. Fox is a pretty unique character, and I greatly like his build. While I do forsee a few buffs in the future, let's give him a chance like this first. If anything, +1 to shine and Nair is good for now.

Admittedly I do tend to be weak on using AND dealing with cross-ups. On my own though I've just recently started trying to address it. I can give this a bit of a try though. Outside of crossing up though I tend to do either meh or really well with my Fox. Just depends on the circumstances I guess...

I would definitely be all for that +1 NAir though. :o

This is an extremely competent character who, like Fox, suffered from very bad match-ups do to really dumb locks, combos and chaingrabs. I would definitely wait and see how this character performs now that he is free of these things.

Sure why not? I could always work on those particular match-ups and see how Wolf fairs.




BTW I don't recall, but you commented on my thoughts regarding Ivysaur's DAir, right? I'm positive neither Thinkaman or Ampharos has. I'm mainly interested in their comments since they're the ones working on the project. Same goes regarding all the editable elements of water (not directed towards you since I'm not sure you can obtain that sort of info).

 

[Thinkaman]

Ivysaur's dair is in a good place right now, and there's really no point to adding novelty value to it.

 

[Pierce7d]

On yet another positive note, I have obtained my copy of this game today (you might remember previously I played it with Ryko).

This means I shall have ample ability to play, and I assure you, my brother and I enjoy it immensely, so I will play. Unfortunately, it is Ryko who uploads replays, so if you wish to get replays to view sample data, I would suggest PMing me your Brawl and Wii codes and I can send you replays.

Lastly, it is most unfortunately that Samus, Falcon, R.O.B. or JigglyPuff, and neither does my brother. I DO know of a Samus player in the area, but we haven't been in touch for a while. If by chance, I manage to get ahold of him, I'll invite him over and see if he'll entertain the idea of playing a souped up Samus. I think I can appeal to his better nature, haha. I also know of a talented C. Falcon player who would probably be most interested in this. I'll see if I can get you C. Falcon live test data tomorrow. Lastly, if I'm most lucky, and if he's not in California, perhaps NinjaLink will entertain me with a visit, and we can see how R.O.B. performs.

Early Thursday morning, I'm leaving for California for Genesis myself, so I will not be able to collect data for you again until Tuesday, as I'll return Monday night.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

dont forget im bringing a dedicated setup to genesis guys, look for the fat guy with the nasa/space shuttle shirts lol

 

[auroreon]

Also to consider is that many Character Board Mods don't appreciate threads about modded characters on their board. I know that when Brawl+ was kicking up people wanted a thread for their character, and it ended up causing a lot of hassle. As such, I'm not going to delete any threads started regarding Balanced Brawl on that board, provided they obey the rules in place for the board. Of course, I'm going to be a bit miffed if I see 30 more threads popping up for the characters who have not been fundamentally changed. And I am somewhat offended that a thread was started without taking the courtesy of asking, especially from you, Auroreon.

Yea, my fault entirely. I appologize, I was a bit rash in creating the thread without asking. I'd happily have it moved to the character discussion board.