Balanced Brawl Public Preview *GENESIS UPDATE*

[JOE!]

A gazillion.

Olimar vs. Ike is not going to be 50-50 guys; Olimar's grabtastic game is always going to make him one of Ike's worst matchups; if Ike went even with Olimar, he would be 70:30 or 80:20 against many other characters. Just as Olimar is always going to be at a disadvantage of flaoty characters that avoid his grabs easily...

I was about to ask...

How exactly can you guys change things on a char vs char basis, without creating the cycle of:

Fix attack A so it helps vs Character x, but is now overpowered vs Character Z, then fix Attack B on Char Z...which becomes OP vs Char W

 

[hankydysplasia]

Nobody really responded to this before. It could be people watched it, and I just didn't understand a basic principle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmR6-OCSUuk

Why does Link fly into the air with the new Captain Falcon D-Tilt Trip? He would always just fall on the ground the other times I did it.

 

[Linkshot]

You probably didn't hit with the right hitbox.

Also, to the person before you, it will narrow down more and more until we get it right. Remember: We are considering other matchups before we mindlessly buff. I think the goal is to have the worst possible scenario be a few 70:30's here and there. It's far better than it could be, though. At least 70:30's have a decent way to be winnable for the 30.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I just updated the original post with some more videos.

Also, status update, Thinkaman and I are working really hard on the standard version, and it's coming together nicely largely thanks to the feedback we've gotten in this topic. I'm going to throw out a few things you can expect in the next version (don't ask about release dates but do know that it's over a week away).

-Wall abuse further fixed, including Ike forward throw.

-Pikachu's throws tweaked for more advantage.

-Zelda & Sheik buffed substantially and should be up to the standards of balance for this project.

-Wario and Zero Suit Samus abusive chainthrows fixed (their inclusion in the initial version was an oversight)

...and much more! Don't think things that weren't listed haven't been discussed; I just don't want to throw everything out right now so much as give you guys an idea that we are still very actively at work. And again, productive feedback has really helped us quite a bit.

I was about to ask...

How exactly can you guys change things on a char vs char basis, without creating the cycle of:

Fix attack A so it helps vs Character x, but is now overpowered vs Character Z, then fix Attack B on Char Z...which becomes OP vs Char W

We're mindful of this. The idea is to change attacks that help against bad matchups and not so much in good matchups strategically. 50-50 in every matchup is a pipe dream for sure, but a game of matchups in which no one is hard countered is probably possible.

Nobody really responded to this before. It could be people watched it, and I just didn't understand a basic principle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmR6-OCSUuk

Why does Link fly into the air with the new Captain Falcon D-Tilt Trip? He would always just fall on the ground the other times I did it.

It must be hitting with some secondary hitbox. We'll discuss it, but it's not necessarily undesirable behavior.

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ Looking forward to it Ampharos. Still hopes this is big enough so everyone can enjoy B-Brawl more... competitive wise. ^_^; ☆

 

[Mecakoto]

I don't think this has the ability to take off on a competitive level for various reasons that I might share if prompted (don't get your hopes up), but we'll see. It just doesn't have the potential other things have, such as Brawl+.

If it does become a major competitive mod, I'll send one of those Giant Pink Sugar Cookies to the next poster by mail. =p

 

[Browny]

AA could you please say what things you are working on... its entirely possible you may have missed some suggestions. especially if youre trying to work on a final release you dont want to have missed something

 

[Kitamerby]

On a side note, this project is seeming like a breath of fresh air from the Brawl+ shenanigans going on, and seems to be far more likely to be either partially or fully adopted in the long run. I especially like how the stages were tweaked, and the new code for anti-water camping.

 

[AfroPingas]

I would LOVE a downloadable RSBP01 file.
>_________>

 

[Rykoshet]

I don't think this has the ability to take off on a competitive level for various reasons that I might share if prompted (don't get your hopes up), but we'll see. It just doesn't have the potential other things have, such as Brawl+.

If it does become a major competitive mod, I'll send one of those Giant Pink Sugar Cookies to the next poster by mail. =p

You werent prompted to say anything at all yet you did. This is really simple honestly. If you wanna play plus, play plus.

 

[Eyada]

Question concerning the water/swimming/drowning mechanic: Is it possible to replace the "you have died and are sinking to the bottom" state with a simple aerial free-fall state, as if the water were no longer there? In other words, once a character has spent too much time in the water, rather than outright losing control of the character and dying, the character would simply begin to free fall as if they were airborne; thus allowing for a second jump and third jump attempt at recovery.

Edit @ GwJumpman: I should have clarified: Once a character has "drowned", it is as if the water is non-existent until they have landed on the stage again. So you can't simply jump out of the water and land in it again to reset your "drowning" state.

Effectively, once a character has "drowned", they lose their ability to interact with the water until they've set foot on the stage again, and remaining off the stage is just like being off-stage on a non-water level; i.e., not safe.

I suggest this only as a compromise for people who thought the new water mechanic was too extreme. It maintains the "rapid drowning" feature of BBrawl, but it lessens the lethality a bit.

I'm entirely unfamiliar with the limitations of hacking in Brawl, so I have no idea if this can be done.

 

[GwJ]

No way. The objective was to remove water camping. What you proposed is even worse than what it was to begin with. The point is to not have your opponent camping in the water.

 

[Mecakoto]

You werent prompted to say anything at all yet you did. This is really simple honestly. If you wanna play plus, play plus.

The ironic thing is that the only reason I downloaded it to see what it was like was because of your videos. It was what prompted me to voice my opinion in this thread. So, in a way, you prompted me. =p

 

[JOE!]

Just thought of a fix for firebreath water camping, and a general cool thing

To prevent abusing firebreath against a water-logged opponent, essentially sealing their fate:

Have firebreath (flamethrower) decrease alot faster (and if possible rech faster...)

this will prevent Charizard and Bowser having an unfair advantage against swimming opponents, seeing as they cannot essentially hold them until death in the water.

At the same time, add more damage per tick to teh breath weapons (1% per tick or so) so that while the breath does not last long at a good range, it is dangerous as ever.

And if it finally wittles down to the little breath....it's your own fault getting hit

 

[GwJ]

Maybe even having the knockback force the opponent up just enough to get them out?

 

[ffdgh]

lol spiking/throwing people into the water is fun tho
add more damage to peach air moves....she doesn't need knockback, just more damage dealers
*even tho a fair and b air buff would be cool >_> lol*

 

[JOE!]

Maybe even having the knockback force the opponent up just enough to get them out?

but that would be a nerf to non-water stages...

essentially, youd be punished for using firebreath.

The way I mentioned it turns into a punsiher, a long-ranged way for charizard or bowser to get in some damage, but not spammable.

And having it rech quicker, as well as last shorter, turns it into a good spacing tool

 

[ffdgh]

hmm couldn't most up Bs and aerials solve that issue

 

[GwJ]

Not in the water, because then you'll be SDI'ing into the flame. Regardless if you just jump away then over them from the water, you should be fine.

 

[ffdgh]

never really had an issues with fire spam so im not too worried

 

[Thinkaman]

I was about to ask...

How exactly can you guys change things on a char vs char basis, without creating the cycle of:

Fix attack A so it helps vs Character x, but is now overpowered vs Character Z, then fix Attack B on Char Z...which becomes OP vs Char W

This is exactly what makes this hard, and why changes HAVE to be made with matchup data in mind. We HAVE to find improvements that SPECIFICALLY help against certain characters.

Nobody really responded to this before. It could be people watched it, and I just didn't understand a basic principle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmR6-OCSUuk

Why does Link fly into the air with the new Captain Falcon D-Tilt Trip? He would always just fall on the ground the other times I did it.

I looked at the d-tilt hitboxes again and the closest one had an oddity; it should be fixed in the next version.

 

[Linkshot]

Thinkaman, I honestly kinda liked that. To trip, you have to hit with the tip. To juggle, you have to hit with the thigh. I think it has potential.

 

[Thinkaman]

Thinkaman, I honestly kinda liked that. To trip, you have to hit with the tip. To juggle, you have to hit with the thigh. I think it has potential.

It was a little jarring to hit that much though; I did leave the angles for the 3 hitboxes in tact of course, so I'll test the effect again.

 

[Linkshot]

Low Base, high growth, electricity, maybe making it a sort of "grounded knee" with less damage?

EDIT: Sorry. That was just a cool suggestion XD Lower Base and growth so that it can combo into a killer, maybe.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Just thought of a fix for firebreath water camping, and a general cool thing

To prevent abusing firebreath against a water-logged opponent, essentially sealing their fate:

Have firebreath (flamethrower) decrease alot faster (and if possible rech faster...)

this will prevent Charizard and Bowser having an unfair advantage against swimming opponents, seeing as they cannot essentially hold them until death in the water.

At the same time, add more damage per tick to teh breath weapons (1% per tick or so) so that while the breath does not last long at a good range, it is dangerous as ever.

And if it finally wittles down to the little breath....it's your own fault getting hit

And make them harder to SDI up out of.

And make it so Ganondorf can't punish on reaction without getting hit.

Cause honestly, unless you're off-stage, or they're in the water, there are no good results for using that move at the top of the metagame.

 

[Steeler]

flamethrower is an excellent spacing move for charizard against most characters.

 

[OFY]

Sonic with a spring spike?

Tbh, after watching a lot of Balanced Brawl videos, I am very impressed.

I like this project guise, gotta try it out sometime.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I think you should make the lasers from falcos bthrow stop momentum, and make them unDI-able if both is possible.

This should improve Falco's grab game (which was severely injured by the downthrow change) and open up for mindgames. It might sound abit inbalanced but I just think that if you're gonna replace something do it good.

 

[Linkshot]

If the throw-lasers stop momentum, Falco gets dThrow infinites.

 

[Adapt]

Question concerning the water/swimming/drowning mechanic: Is it possible to replace the "you have died and are sinking to the bottom" state with a simple aerial free-fall state, as if the water were no longer there? In other words, once a character has spent too much time in the water, rather than outright losing control of the character and dying, the character would simply begin to free fall as if they were airborne; thus allowing for a second jump and third jump attempt at recovery.

Edit @ GwJumpman: I should have clarified: Once a character has "drowned", it is as if the water is non-existent until they have landed on the stage again. So you can't simply jump out of the water and land in it again to reset your "drowning" state.

Effectively, once a character has "drowned", they lose their ability to interact with the water until they've set foot on the stage again, and remaining off the stage is just like being off-stage on a non-water level; i.e., not safe.

I suggest this only as a compromise for people who thought the new water mechanic was too extreme. It maintains the "rapid drowning" feature of BBrawl, but it lessens the lethality a bit.

I'm entirely unfamiliar with the limitations of hacking in Brawl, so I have no idea if this can be done.

I don't think this has gotten any attention and I would like to bring it up again.
I like this idea. It's not an auto-loss for landing in the water at high percentage, but you clearly wouldn't be able to camp in the water any more than you can in the current version of bbrawl.

I am against the water mechanic currently, it's pretty stupid if you get knocked over the edge for shielding an attack or you attempt to tether recover and touch the water and immediately die. I would definitely support the change that Eyada mentioned

 

[JOE!]

And make them harder to SDI up out of.

And make it so Ganondorf can't punish on reaction without getting hit.

Cause honestly, unless you're off-stage, or they're in the water, there are no good results for using that move at the top of the metagame.

Vs Spacey side-bs and Ike's, its funny to catch them in it and trap them

anyways, heres the list so far for firebreaths?:

1) Make the wind down 2x as fast (held down breath decreases in range 2x as fast)

2) Make it recharge to Full Length 2x as fast

3) +1% damage per tick

Extra1) Harder to SDI out of?

Extra2) Make start-up faster by 1 frame or 2?

Essentially, it will eliminate Firebreath camping in water, while providing a nice punisher or spacing tool for bowser and charizard, and a nice way to get like, a free 10% from range, and when caught in Firebreath, you get roasted, but seeing as it decreases faster, its not too bad

 

[adumbrodeus]

Vs Spacey side-bs and Ike's, its funny to catch them in it and trap them

anyways, heres the list so far for firebreaths?:

1) Make the wind down 2x as fast (held down breath decreases in range 2x as fast)

2) Make it recharge to Full Length 2x as fast

3) +1% damage per tick

Extra1) Harder to SDI out of?

Extra2) Make start-up faster by 1 frame or 2?

Essentially, it will eliminate Firebreath camping in water, while providing a nice punisher or spacing tool for bowser and charizard, and a nice way to get like, a free 10% from range, and when caught in Firebreath, you get roasted, but seeing as it decreases faster, its not too bad

It's easy enough to SDI out of that it's punishable on hit. That's a problem, aka, no good results.

 

[Linkshot]

If you didn't end it early enough, you get punished. It's punishment for letting them get too close.

 

[adumbrodeus]

If you didn't end it early enough, you get punished. It's punishment for letting them get too close.

I believe you can even SDI out of min burst to punish, it's got a lot of cooldown lag and doesn't inflict much stun.

 

[Big O]

Nobody really responded to this before. It could be people watched it, and I just didn't understand a basic principle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmR6-OCSUuk

Why does Link fly into the air with the new Captain Falcon D-Tilt Trip? He would always just fall on the ground the other times I did it.

If you watch closely it looks like Link jumped right before getting hit. You can't trip in the air so it just hit him upwards.

I think the idea where instead of drowning you start falling sounds good but if you think about it a little bit more in depth you will notice that it can be abused for stalling. Imagine a Jigglypuff rising pound under water. You wouldn't even be able to reach her until you can fall through the water yourself. In that time she could also hit you while you are trying to drown to reach her. I still think the water still needs work but that wouldn't be a good solution.

 

[JOE!]

I believe you can even SDI out of min burst to punish, it's got a lot of cooldown lag and doesn't inflict much stun.

hmn, maybe if teh fire had hitstun at teh end enough to cove rthe ending lag as well...

essentially, you dont get punished for hitting the move, but at the same time you cannot floow the hitstun due to the lag?



Thinka, what do you think about teh Firebreaths?

 

[Thinkaman]

Bowser and Charizard's fire is really fine as is; we are looking into water solutions, make no mistake.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Bowser and Charizard's fire is really fine as is; we are looking into water solutions, make no mistake.

As a waste of a move slot?


If I wanted to buff something I'd look there, so it doesn't become useless at the top of the metagame like it really is now.

 

[Anomilus]

Hey Thinkaman or Ampharos, perhaps you guys can explain exactly what can you do to the water? Exactly how are you able to affect the water and to what extent?

I'm asking since I had one out-there suggestion of simply having the water inflict quick steady damage to the opponent. I know the areas near the left/right blastzones are capable of inflicting slow damage, though I don't know the properties that allows it to do this. I'm just assuming it's all "hitboxes" of sorts. Would you be capable of affecting the water "hitbox" to build up damage? I know it's not as potent as quickly drowning anybody who tries to water camp, but it could serve as some incentive if excessive water camping leads to high amounts of damage.

Then perhaps if you're able to control the threshold between a person being in water and soon drowning and get it to a less extreme version of what it is now, the combined damage building could prove for a real incentive to avoid water camping without harshly punishing anybody who just happens to land in it with moderately high damage.

 

[Revven]

hmn, maybe if teh fire had hitstun

teh fire had histun

fire had histun

had hitstun

hitstun

*facepalm*

Just for future reference, there is only a tiny amount of hitstun in Brawl, if you can even consider it hitstun. However, in the case of firebreaths, they don't deal hitstun, at all. Hitstun is the moment you're in the tumble animation, where you're actually sent somewhere not where you're just getting hit consecutively by a weak hit like the flamethrowers. That's why you can't DI moves like Sheik's Ftilt lock or why you can't DI out of wall locks that well, they're all weak hits and don't send into the tumble animation (where hitstun WOULD occur IF there was enough of it and IF you couldn't momentum cancel) raising the base or knockback growth of weak hits makes them send into the tumble sooner and thus, allows you to DI, all you'd be doing to the flamethrowers if you so much touched their KB in any way is making them easier to get out of, as well as faster to get out of.

There's really no point in messing with the flamethrowers because they're not really useful for anything and won't be with any change. They're situational at best... and should stay that way.

Also for future reference, they can't add hitstun directly to any moves with the Hitbox property mod, the best they can do is make moves send into the tumble earlier which in essence, to Brawl in this case, IS the moment you're in "hitstun" but the problem is you can do anything during it... so adding hitstun to moves wouldn't really do much in the way of fixing them if the game doesn't have much hitstun to begin with.