Balanced Brawl Public Preview *GENESIS UPDATE*

[adumbrodeus]

stuff

Sorry, forgot my technical terminology for a minute. It's hitlag, which is SDI-able.

 

[Linkshot]

Water already does damage to Pikmin that aren't Blue...maybe characters just have a removable immunity, too?

 

[Eyada]

I think the idea where instead of drowning you start falling sounds good but if you think about it a little bit more in depth you will notice that it can be abused for stalling. Imagine a Jigglypuff rising pound under water. You wouldn't even be able to reach her until you can fall through the water yourself. In that time she could also hit you while you are trying to drown to reach her. I still think the water still needs work but that wouldn't be a good solution.

That wouldn't be any different than Jigglypuff stalling with rising Pound on Final Destination. She will slowly but surely fall to her death, so there's no need to go attack her; just watch her slowly lose altitude until she hits the bottom of the screen.

To be clear: Once a character has "drowned" it would be as if the water weren't even there anymore (for that character only), so they will fall to their death if they don't get back to the stage.

Regardless, I just threw it out there as a suggestion in case Thinkaman/AA hadn't already considered it as a possibility. If it doesn't meet their design goals or if it playtests poorly, so be it; no big loss.

 

[Revven]

Sorry, forgot my technical terminology for a minute. It's hitlag, which is SDI-able.

In either case, they can't add hitlag or hitstun anyway to specific hitboxes. It's either add more hitlag to everything or less hitlag to everything (or more hitlag to electric moves or less hitlag to electric moves). And those are controlled by two completely different codes and is probably something this project isn't going to want to mess with. (Unless you want Falcon's knee to be even MORE SDI-able than it currently is, which is still really really easy to SDI...)

 

[adumbrodeus]

In either case, they can't add hitlag or hitstun anyway to specific hitboxes. It's either add more hitlag to everything or less hitlag to everything (or more hitlag to electric moves or less hitlag to electric moves). And those are controlled by two completely different codes and is probably something this project isn't going to want to mess with. (Unless you want Falcon's knee to be even MORE SDI-able than it currently is, which is still really really easy to SDI...)

I was actually implying less cooldown. Maybe the ability to cancel earlier.

Or honestly, more damage. Give it some actual hitstun. Assuming we can make that happen without buffing it's power too much.

 

[Thinkaman]

Water already does damage to Pikmin that aren't Blue...maybe characters just have a removable immunity, too?

I think Pikmin have their own rather complex code controlling their movement, part of which involves dying instantly if they get in water and their color is not blue.

 

[Linkshot]

They don't die instantly, if you watch carefully (my cousin has been an Olimar main since release).

They gradually take damage from water until they die (purples take about 5 seconds to lose all their HP)

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Thinkaman and I just had a long discussion about everything that needs done, and we're on the point of one character really having insufficient data so far...

SAMUS

Please, anyone, use Samus.

If we get good Samus data, we very well may be able to meet our initial goal of only two weeks with the preview version... but don't take that too officially.

On that note, this topic has really slowed down as of late. I hope that's not a bad sign...

 

[hankydysplasia]

Thinkaman and I just had a long discussion about everything that needs done, and we're on the point of one character really having insufficient data so far...

SAMUS

Please, anyone, use Samus.

If we get good Samus data, we very well may be able to meet our initial goal of only two weeks with the preview version... but don't take that too officially.

On that note, this topic has really slowed down as of late. I hope that's not a bad sign...

Great to hear everything is moving quickly.

I hoped more ROB players would chime in with input too just to see where he stands after so many other players were buffed - especially in the matches he was 50/50 or worse. I still haven't gotten to play against a human opponent with him.

As for why it slowed down, I'm just guessing people had things to do over 4th of July weekend. Hopefully they get back into it.

 

[ffdgh]

lol kk ill give spam errm samus a shot

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I would like to throw out that the next version isn't going to change for 4-6 months unless something really nice comes along so it really is a "get in your opinions now" sort of thing.

Also, another thing I should have asked for earlier. It's definitely too early to have solid tiers, but anyone who has seen the diversity of characters in action enough to formulate a decent estimate tier list should definitely go ahead and post it. We both actually about agree on where most characters stand, but outside perspectives are always incredibly helpful (note that the posts in this topic changed how we looked at a lot of characters!).

 

[JOE!]

*facepalm*

Just for future reference, there is only a tiny amount of hitstun in Brawl, if you can even consider it hitstun. However, in the case of firebreaths, they don't deal hitstun, at all. Hitstun is the moment you're in the tumble animation, where you're actually sent somewhere not where you're just getting hit consecutively by a weak hit like the flamethrowers. That's why you can't DI moves like Sheik's Ftilt lock or why you can't DI out of wall locks that well, they're all weak hits and don't send into the tumble animation (where hitstun WOULD occur IF there was enough of it and IF you couldn't momentum cancel) raising the base or knockback growth of weak hits makes them send into the tumble sooner and thus, allows you to DI, all you'd be doing to the flamethrowers if you so much touched their KB in any way is making them easier to get out of, as well as faster to get out of.

There's really no point in messing with the flamethrowers because they're not really useful for anything and won't be with any change. They're situational at best... and should stay that way.

Also for future reference, they can't add hitstun directly to any moves with the Hitbox property mod, the best they can do is make moves send into the tumble earlier which in essence, to Brawl in this case, IS the moment you're in "hitstun" but the problem is you can do anything during it... so adding hitstun to moves wouldn't really do much in the way of fixing them if the game doesn't have much hitstun to begin with.

ah, thanks for the uh, enlightenment

but isnt the whole point of BBrawl to buff ****ty moves and make things more balanced?

Like Amb said, Flamethrowers are the things youd wanna buff on charizard and bowser, they have very limited use in vBrawl as it is...and that essentially means they suck

 

[Adapt]

I think that we are going to try and get a smashfest on sunday, and I will bring my SD card with bbrawl on it for testing.

Will you have a new version out this week, or not for a bit?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

We definitely won't have a new version out by this weekend. The earliest we're possibly releasing the "first standard" version is the middle of next week, and that assumes everything goes smoothly and as we predict.

 

[Big O]

I would like to throw out that the next version isn't going to change for 4-6 months unless something really nice comes along so it really is a "get in your opinions now" sort of thing.

I think you should do that only after the "official" one gets more playtesting. Lots of things tend to be overlooked/forgotten in the 11th hour so at the very least there should be some kind of grace period (like say one month) where changes can occur in the official.

I think Samus is fine overall but I think the only things that caught my attention were the downward forward smash buff and the homing missile buff. The downward forward smash gimps really well and the homing missiles getting 3 extra damage probably adds up really fast. I just remember using it on a Ganon CPU in training mode and killing him at around the same % as the new charge shot.

 

[Revven]

ah, thanks for the uh, enlightenment

but isnt the whole point of BBrawl to buff ****ty moves and make things more balanced?

Like Amb said, Flamethrowers are the things youd wanna buff on charizard and bowser, they have very limited use in vBrawl as it is...and that essentially means they suck

In my personal opinion, there are just some moves that don't really gain anything from being buffed in any way, the flamethrowers are sorta what I feel won't get used more often just because they deal another 5% more damage... now if they never went down at all (as in, went into the smaller flames overtime) then that would be something of interest. But, at the current moment, buffing them for damage... ehh... I don't think that'll help things for either character.

It's better to buff their strengths in this case, especially considering Bowser lost his grab release game by a huge margin.

But, whatever you guys decide, I don't really care because I don't use either character lol.

 

[kingdom-triforce]

The fact that Ganondorf's finally taking his steroids is happy enough for me.

 

[JOE!]

In my personal opinion, there are just some moves that don't really gain anything from being buffed in any way, the flamethrowers are sorta what I feel won't get used more often just because they deal another 5% more damage... now if they never went down at all (as in, went into the smaller flames overtime) then that would be something of interest. But, at the current moment, buffing them for damage... ehh... I don't think that'll help things for either character.

It's better to buff their strengths in this case, especially considering Bowser lost his grab release game by a huge margin.

But, whatever you guys decide, I don't really care because I don't use either character lol.

yeah, your dude didnt even change

anywho, all Im saying is that these two abilities are unique to these characters....and dont really do much.

For example, Squirtle's watergun was bareley used outside of like gimping Earthbound Crew.
They buffed it to have more KB....

Why not help out the firebreaths seeing as theyre hardly used/useful?

 

[Linkshot]

Water Gun was a gimping tool that didn't gimp. That's why it was buffed. Firebreath is a damaging tool that actually damages. Sure, you get punished, but for more damage than you dealt? Nah.

 

[GwJ]

How was Water Gun in terms of power compared to Mario's FLUDD in Brawl?

 

[Steeler]

water gun was the same or slightly weaker.

flamethrower really isn't that bad guys. :\ retreating flamethrower is nice and also a **** edgeguard against characters that recover from below. just angle that **** straight down over the edge. but that is fairly situational.

i would be fine with a buff though lol. marth ds'ing through it all the time is a little annoying and would help a lot in that matchup. plus dedede wouldn't be quite so dangerous to charizard if zard flamethrower were a more reliable spacer.

 

[JOE!]

Water Gun was a gimping tool that didn't gimp. That's why it was buffed. Firebreath is a damaging tool that actually damages. Sure, you get punished, but for more damage than you dealt? Nah.

yeah, but isnt it silly at the least that you are punished like, 100% of the time for landing a move, regardless of what damage you do?

 

[Linkshot]

If you do it right, though, it's not real punishment. They can't completely redo the damage.

 

[Brinzy]

I've done a fair bit of playing, but I don't have any quality videos up. I will go ahead and say, though, that the Zelda vs. Ganon match-up is looking more 55:45 Zelda or possibly even, as of right now WITHOUT whatever changes you've done recently. I'm really looking forward to the new Zelda.

No, you really CAN'T move invincibility (didn't I explain this earlier). Invincibility frames are "static." Even if you were to take away all the lag that was present before them, the invincibility frames would simply shift into the same window as before. Taking hypothetical move exampe:

Move A has 10 frames of startup and invincibility on frames 6-9. Total duration of the move is 20 frames.

This move has invincibility right before the hitbox comes out. Now when we speed up the move by 2x from frame 1.

Move A (modified) now has 5 frames of startup and invincibility on frames 6-9 (that's right, they don't move). Total duration of the move is 15 frames.

This move has invincibility DURING THE HITBOX. Irronically, in this example the invincibility occurs after the hitbox has already been out for 1 frame.


Hope this clears up any questions related to SA frames, invincibility, and the dead jump frame (that 1 frame during a jump that doesn't register inputs....is unfortunately static).

In this case, simply remove the first four frames of Nayru's. This helps it overlap with the attack a little. Trading with Nayru's is so ridiculously stupid for Zelda. That, and whatever Ryko probably posted will be enough for this move.

EDIT: Also, I read about Zelda vs. DDD possibly being one of her worst match-ups. Do not even concern yourself with this. The match-up in standard Brawl is somewhere around 60:40 in her favor. Yes, his throws have become more deadly against her, but she still forces him to approach with Din's and she still holds a good fight to him despite being a pretty underwhelming character in general. So far, you've buffed nair and Dsmash, which may not do much for the actual match-up but it does make her moves overall better, so obv. I'd pick this one over the standard one. Once I see all of your changes for Zelda, then I will accurately critique her abilities.

The Dair sweetspotting on the ground isn't gonna be super broken or anything. Every other aerial approach except for uair is faster and ever-so-slightly less easy to deal with. What it does do is that it adds to Zelda's punishment game. Let's say I predict MK is gonna use an Fsmash. In order to punish this, I need to aim for bair (best option available), Din's him (possible to be shielded anyway), or Nayru's him (fixed version will make this viable - as it stands, you are basically looking for lightning kick-specific frames to get something to work for you while you can potentially give MK frame advantage if you aren't precise). With this, I can actually punish MK and many others that wall her like hell because everyone knows that she can't do anything if you basically force a Zelda to resort to falling aerials for punishment.

Again, I'm just gonna wait for the new version to see if she's been fundamentally fixed. Ryko did IM me about some changes that I assume he proposed, and if most or all of those changes were added, Zelda would likely be pretty much good to go, for now anyway.

 

[hankydysplasia]

Sorry I misunderstood you. Since KO setups are going to vary substantially by character, we really do need to uncover what ROBs new worst match-ups are. If he is going to get a change remotely like this, we have to be certain it helps him in the right places, you know? I hope ROB players can offer feedback like this.

Well, I haven't heard too many better other ROB players speaking up, so I will with what knowledge I have.

I think R.O.B. is going to be in a bit of trouble if he isn't buffed a little bit, and I get the idea that a few of the other ROBbers? have the same thought. According to the match-up compilation his worst matchups are MK (30), G&W (35), DDD (40), ZSS (30?, 40?), Peach (40?), Fox (40), and Mario (40). His only match-ups in which he is more than 60 favorite are Link and Ganon, who have changed dramatically and who are Ganondorf. The 2 match-ups in danger with a ROB buff are Olimar who didn't get anything, and Snake, who got worse. Everyone else got better including 3 of his worst matchups, and since G&W didn't change, that's at least 4 probably worse than 40/60, MK doesn't really dominate ROB because of his D-Smash either. The Up-B certainly helps, but ROB can't deal with good MK spacing and floaty aerials. He's still probably worse than 40/60 so that's 5. This isn't even answering your question to what his new worst matchups are, which probably exist.

Now, as I said before, I don't have anyone to play in person with right now, so you'll have to deal with my theorycraft. ROB of course has difficulty setting up a kill. Against G&W, he only has the Nair against Turtle and the gyro going for him. Using Nair to counter G&W's attacks ruins his pretty much only kill move. Against MK, the Up-B can get kills early, so nerfing that helps. Tornado never really worked that well because of the laser, and D-Smash wasn't important either. So you're still left with tons of trouble. Again, bumping knockback of Nair or gyro may help that match-up. Against Mario, ROB is juggled very easily. Fireballs helped with the juggling, so the added damage with them is just going to widen the gap. Both had bad KO power, but Mario's is up now. Buffing gyro wouldn't help this match-up because of the cape. Nair would help. Or, as always, a way to set up a kill move.

I'm not creative enough this late at night to think up too many solutions, that's just my argument for a ROB buff. For his two advantaged match-ups it's his gimping & camping power against Olimar and his camping against Snake that allow him to win. Not sure how much worse it would be with a buff.

Hopefully this will at least get people talking about ol' R.O.B.

 

[hankydysplasia]

One other technical question. Tonight I decided I wanted my texture hacks back. I copy and pasted all the code in the first post into a TXT file. Then I copy & pasted File Replacement 2.1a in the same file at the bottom. Then I converted the file to GCT with the Mac program txt2gct.

Each individually work perfectly (the BBrawl gct, and my converted File Replacement 2.1a), so I know it can work.

The first time I loaded the code, it froze white after the intro video that pans across all the characters. The second time I loaded it, the start button on the Gamecube Controller didn't work - it paused whatever was happening at the time, even in the menu. I had to start the game with the WiiMote. Everything seemed to play like normal BBrawl though. What did I do wrong?

 

[JOE!]

If you do it right, though, it's not real punishment. They can't completely redo the damage.

Well, true, but how often does that happen?

i guess my major complaint is that it has a niche that is rare with Zard and Bowser: Recovering from below

Nearly all of their atacks go hard Up, to the Sides, or upward diagonal...

Essentially, firebreath destroys chars recovering from below, other than that, its highly situational (catching an opponent even ends up with you getting hit...)

 

[Brinzy]

Oh, and match-up changes so far:

Zelda is likely just slight adv. to even with Ganon. Match-up plays exactly the same, only Ganon needs a few less hits to seal the deal.

Zelda vs. Falcon fight is likely just 60:40 in Zelda's favor. She still holds the same advantages against him because even though his close-quarters combating abilities were improved, Zelda still holds a solid advantage here thanks to dtilt, Dsmash and disjointed attacks. Either way, while it's always been winnable, it's definitely a better fight for Falcon.

Zelda vs. Link is likely a very even fight. It could possibly be 55:45 in Link's favor now. The arrows really did it for him. On the other hand, this reinforces the fact that Zelda does do poorly against projectiles, so I'm hoping the next update will do something about that.

Zelda vs. Yoshi fight, for what it's worth, has remained the same, which is likely 60:40 in Zelda's favor. Yoshi's problems with her are still there (high priority attacks, dtilt -> bair, somewhat decent battle against campy Yoshis, etc.). His survivability got a huge bonus. Zelda operates by killing him flat out, not gimps - this DOES mean that Sheik has a much harder fight on hand. If you were looking to influence more synergy between Zelda and Sheik, you really did it with this fight.

Zelda vs. Samus... well I haven't played the Samus match-up yet with a player, but it was already slightly in her favor. Giving her more knockback is simply gonna solidify it. Keep this as is.

Zelda vs. Lucas is pretty much the same. Match-up was pretty much even to begin with, and it'll likely remain that way.

Zelda vs. Jigglypuff fight has definitely improved for Jigglypuff. A buffed Dsmash shouldn't harm her that much because of how Jigglypuff plays. Better aerials overall help to make this fight a bit better for Jigglypuff.

Zelda vs. Ness is just the same as before, which is even. The stronger Dsmash compensates for Ness's new advantages. Yes, it really does. I've played this match-up the most, and I'm still very happy with it.

Zelda vs. Sonic is fine. Roughly even or slightly in Sonic's favor, which means Zelda/Sheik is still advantaged.

Zelda vs. Bowser fight is still 60:40 in Zelda's favor. She simply can't make as many mistakes, on paper at least. In practice, nothing has changed except Zelda may die one attack earlier... I guess. The new dair gets brickedwalled by Zelda still. This may, however, give Sheik a slight disadvantage, thus balancing stuff out again.

Zelda vs. Mario is, in my opinion, still even. The buffs to Mario does not make this a much different fight for Zelda, while they still help Mario out.

Zelda vs. Squirtle is still even. Zelda got a bit stronger on him, but it's not much to hamper him. Zelda vs. Ivysaur has gone from about even to advantage to Ivysaur, like a 60:40 in his favor. This is a GOOD thing, because prior to the changes the fight was probably in Zelda's favor, if at all. Charizard is probably about 55:45 against Zelda, so it was good. On the other hand, Sheik should remain pretty unchanged in the Ivysaur fight because of her punishment game and her superior edgeguarding skills that can still null his new trick, and Sheik is about even with Charizard. Zelda/Sheik vs. PT is likely an advantage to Zelda/Sheik still because they can all opt to not change for about a 45:55 for Zelda and a 55:45 for Sheik, while together they can kill off Charizard faster and Zelda can avoid the Ivysaur match-up. I say Zelda/Sheik vs. PT is 60:40 in Zelda/Sheik's favor.

Zelda vs. Ike is a solid 60:40 in Ike's advantage. Sheik vs. Ike fight just got a lot easier for Ike. You really don't have to do anything for the Zelda vs. Ike fight to balance stuff out, because they're still both linear characters, and the match-up is basically given to Ike because of his fair. Anything else is just small stuff they can do to each other.

Zelda vs. Wolf fight has not really changed much. 60:40 to Wolf seems about right. New Zelda will probably make it closer to even.

Zelda vs. Sheik fight is also likely in Sheik's favor. Again, new Zelda will likely be even. In fact, you should really, REALLY strive to make this an even fight. If you want more details on it, let me know.

Zelda vs. Luigi is still pretty even.

Zelda vs. unchanged ROB solidifies this into Zelda's favor. New Sheik may lose 35:65 to new ROB. Zelda/Sheik fight is probably a 55:45 to 60:40.

Zelda vs. Peach is one of those really bad fights for Zelda that goes unnoticed for reasons way beyond my grasp. Peach is incredibly safe on block against Zelda and she has such a ridiculous punishing, pressuring, and approaching game with turnips. Peach does not care about Sheik's improvements or the fact that she lost an ftilt lock. Now Peach can kill better. 35:65 for the Zelda fight, probably something around that for the Sheik fight, and likely a 40:60 together. What you do with this fight is entirely up to you... but the idea of putting a flower on the jab is one of the best ideas yet, because the jab is almost the only tool Zelda has against Peach in this fight to combat the part that makes Peach so ridiculous. As for Sheik, you'll need a better source for this.

Zelda vs. Toon Link is still 60:40 in Toon Link's favor.

Zelda vs. Zero Suit Samus is still 60:40 in Zero Suit Samus's favor.

Zelda vs. Marth is still around 65:35 in Marth's favor. I'm more comfortable with 60:40. Standard brawl Zelda/Sheik was an "eh, sorta, kinda, maybe" even fight. New Zelda will likely make this even for certain. (Pierce says 80:20 in Marth's favor. Probably feels that way when you consider her terrible design.)

Zelda vs. DK is still 60:40 in DK's favor. Duo wins slightly.

Zelda vs. Lucario is still 55:45 in Lucario's favor. Duo is about even.

Zelda vs. Diddy is still 55:45 in Diddy's favor. Duo wins slightly.

Zelda vs. Ice Climbers is still 55:45 in Zelda's favor. Just use Zelda for this one. This fight can be one of the few fights that trounces Sheik in order to make up for the fights that currently trounce Zelda.

Zelda vs. Fox is still 60:40 in Fox's favor. The changes with the ftilt lock make this a fair fight.

Zelda vs. Wario is likely a 60:40 fight in Wario's favor. Duo is probably even.

Zelda vs. Pit is still even. Duo is 60:40.

Zelda vs. Kirby is still 55:45 Zelda. Duo is probably 55:45.

Zelda is still shut down by Olimar, G&W, MK, and Snake. There's not much you can do for the Olimar match-up, but the Sheik one is still winnable. G&W is probably at a 70:30 advantage still against the duo, because using Zelda is still that dumb of an idea. It's likely a 60:40 for just Sheik, so if you have no problem with this, let it remain; I trust that the new Zelda will change this. Zelda vs. MK is, on paper, a 30:70. New Zelda will likely make this winnable for the duo, but I'm not sure now that Sheik has lost her ftilt lock. Zelda vs. Snake is still a very terrible fight for Zelda. I'm assuming that the ftilt -> utilt combo with Sheik still works. If this is the case, the Zelda/Sheik vs. Snake fight is likely even, or it will be with new Zelda. If new Zelda were given a dair that sweetspots, she would likely do far better against all four of these characters, assuming she received any other advantages that you wanted to give her as well.

Overall, I'm very happy with this first new version of Zelda... or I should say that I'm not displeased yet. I'm sure that it has been mentioned already, but Zelda is an incredibly flawed character. Why she has such a slowass grab is beyond me, but it pretty much trashed her. Again, if you need any more direct feedback, I am here to help.

 

[SkylerOcon]

Why isn't this stickied yet?

B+ gets character discussion. I foresee bBrawl needing it in the future as well.

I'm playing this now. B+, you were great to me, but now I'm back to playing actual Brawl without the stupid ****.

EDIT: Mario's Dtilt doesn't need more damage. It needs less lag for it to actually be usable. Giving Mario's dtilt more damage is a waste of a buff.

 

[Steeler]

as i understood it from thinkaman on AIM, Zelda dair sweetspotting grounded opponents is "broken". like, way better than thunderstomping.

 

[Thinkaman]

Overall, I'm very happy with this first new version of Zelda... or I should say that I'm not displeased yet. I'm sure that it has been mentioned already, but Zelda is an incredibly flawed character. Why she has such a slowass grab is beyond me, but it pretty much trashed her. Again, if you need any more direct feedback, I am here to help.

Thanks for your input; I personally played a lot of Zelda tonight in an internal playtest with some new changes. One match in particular, a 6-minute match against Link on wi-fi (the stage; matches were all offline!), was one of the best games of Brawl I've ever played.

EDIT: Mario's Dtilt doesn't need more damage. It needs less lag for it to actually be usable. Giving Mario's dtilt more damage is a waste of a buff.

Mario really isn't a fundamentalyl flawed enough character to require a timing change of any sort, things we want to actively avoid.

The damage buff isn't what's important; sure, it's a hard more to hit with, so doing +1% as a reward is great and all, but the real deal is the angle... It really does set up his aerial game better. It's not a huge deal, since nothing is guaranteed, but it's a modest and appropriate buff. It's not supposed to be that big of an advantage for Mario.

as i understood it from thinkaman on AIM, Zelda dair sweetspotting grounded opponents is "broken". like, way better than thunderstomping.

Yeah; it's actually pretty ridiculous. On CPUs I was effortlessly chaining 4 dairs from 0%, and winning matches with no move but dair. It's just bad design and makes her into Ganondorf, it is clearly not allowed normally for a reason.

I think you guys will be really pleased with the upcoming Sheik and Zelda. One of our internal testers tonight called them "mean", and they saw a lot of play. We don't have all that much work to do for the next polished version; Samus and to a lesser extent Falcon are what is holding us back. (In addition to looking into the water situation.) I want to reiterate Ampharos's plea... please, please, offer us Samus feedback! You guys have been great on many other matchups so far!

 

[Bladewing]

can we get this stickied?

If Brawl+ is stickied, why can't we get Bbrawl stickied?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

If the throw-lasers stop momentum, Falco gets dThrow infinites.

I think the opponent would be laying down on the ground then, or he'd stand next to him, in either way no guaranteed stuff, especially with the new dthrow lag.

 

[Anomilus]

If I can get more people to play me I could try and get more matchup-specific data like Raphael did. I'm at least decent with a huge amount of characters, so I would think I could get a tidbit on data on most notable match-ups.

Kind of makes me wish I notified this one player about BBrawl I played against Sunday as he had a really good Samus, ZSS, and generally a well polished playstyle.


BTW, am I gonna get any sort of answer regarding the editable properties of Brawl's water is? Same question regarding replacing Ivysaur's DAir damage/knockback buff with a slight nerf but adding a flower? (Because it fits Ivysaur too well and is a better incentive to use the move despite its end lag)

 

[auroreon]

Why isn't this stickied yet?

B+ gets character discussion. I foresee bBrawl needing it in the future as well.

I'm playing this now. B+, you were great to me, but now I'm back to playing actual Brawl without the stupid ****.

EDIT: Mario's Dtilt doesn't need more damage. It needs less lag for it to actually be usable. Giving Mario's dtilt more damage is a waste of a buff.

I also call for a sticky and character discussion threads.
Its not very efficient getting feedback on every character and other changes all in one thread. So I took the liberty of making a Balanced Yoshi discussion thread as a place to provide feedback on Yoshi in Balanced Brawl.
I hope other character mains also do so.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7793723http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7793723#post7793723

 

[betterthanbonds9]

I hope this question hasn't been addressed, but i did try searching this thread for it....

Why were damage taken away from Wario's fsmash and uair, but not knockback on either.
-This seems weird because of the top3 characters, Wario is fundamentally the same, whereas Snake needs to use ftilt less (so it goes undiminished) or more aerials for KOs and MK got his dsmash and shuttle loop reduced. Wario's don't use fsmash, especially, to rack up damage, they use it to kill.

 

[shanus]

I hope this question hasn't been addressed, but i did try searching this thread for it....

Why were damage taken away from Wario's fsmash and uair, but not knockback on either.
-This seems weird because of the top3 characters, Wario is fundamentally the same, whereas Snake needs to use ftilt less (so it goes undiminished) or more aerials for KOs and MK got his dsmash and shuttle loop reduced. Wario's don't use fsmash, especially, to rack up damage, they use it to kill.

Damage is intrinsically tied to knockback growth (that is, how knockback scales with damage). I dont know why they didnt just nerf the KBG directly), but nerfing damage is one way to go about doing it.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

can we get this stickied?

If Brawl+ is stickied, why can't we get Bbrawl stickied?

I totally agree. I know many known players are supporting Brawl+, but many of us don't like how they are messing with game physics , stale move negation and game speed. This project has a bright future. We just want a balanced roster, that's all. This may someday become a standard for the competitive community. We may not get a perfect balance, but this will be much closer to a balanced game as it is now with vBrawl.

I wanted to ask something. Why are there so few videos of BBrawl matches? Are few people playing this? I think that more videos will help gamers feel this is not just a poor idea and at the same time they can see how matches go now. Just a healthy advice. I will try to hack my wii today to try this and to try Brawl+. All of my Smashing friends already now of this project and most of them are interested. I cannot record matches right now, unfortunately.

 

[GHNeko]

I also call for a sticky and character discussion threads.
Its not very efficient getting feedback on every character and other changes all in one thread. So I took the liberty of making a Balanced Yoshi discussion thread as a place to provide feedback on Yoshi in Balanced Brawl.
I hope other character mains also do so.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7793723

I'm sorry. Why would you ask for character specific discussion when the characters (most of them) are fundementally the same.

Like the metagame for the heavy majority of the cast is unchanged, and if altered, you only need to adapt to a few changes. There are no more than 10 charaters you have to adapt, and no more than 5 you have to "relearn".

Most of the metagame of the roster carries over like THAT to BBrawl. You'd essentially be discussing pretty much the same thing in the Brawl character boards, sans the small slew of changes and some match adjustments.

That's just me. I'm for a sticky of this thread, but character discussion seems near fruitless considering what BBrawl is trying to do.

:V

 

[TreK]

I wanted to ask something. Why are there so few videos of BBrawl matches? Are few people playing this? I think that more videos will help gamers feel this is not just a poor idea and at the same time they can see how matches go now. Just a healthy advice. I will try to hack my wii today to try this and to try Brawl+. All of my Smashing friends already now of this project and most of them are interested. I cannot record matches right now, unfortunately.

It's still pretty new, B+ has been out for months now
Plus it's a beta anyway.

Search function sux, is there a new PAL version that doesn't freeze your wii or are you still working on it ? :o


+1 @ sticky