Balanced Brawl Public Preview *GENESIS UPDATE*

[Dekar173]

It's interesting what you're doing with this, let's hope it turns out well

 

[Mystic101]

seems great, if I where you guys tho I would look into giving link his brawl+ recovery which is still very gimpable but slightly more bearable. If not give him his brawl+ dtilt spike, its hard to land in brawl + and would be very hard to land in this one but would give good mixup options with the new arrows.

 

[Swordplay]

seems great, if I where you guys tho I would look into giving link his brawl+ recovery which is still very gimpable but slightly more bearable. If not give him his brawl+ dtilt spike, its hard to land in brawl + and would be very hard to land in this one but would give good mixup options with the new arrows.

No, Links d-tilt would be impossible to hit with because of ASL.

Fixing his recovery would require physics changes and they won't do that.


Once again, after you play Link for a while and realize little things.....ex/ (such as he pivot boosts almost as fast as his dash).....and learn all his AT's......You'll realize he is one of the best. I'd say in terms of learning curve, he has one of the 5 hardest in the game easily........




* I am going to be straight up honest, I think some of his other buffs such as the spin attack buff ended up being MUCH more important and game changing than arrows......I've been using them for a while now and I don't still that much "greatness" in them. They are only good when charging situations occur and spamming/using uncharged arrows always results in punishment unless you are arrow canceling. These things are WAY overrated. It's his other buffs are what REALLY brought him up to par. Read my other posts........ *

 

[Rykoshet]

I'm just going to bring this up again... any thoughts?

Oh, and the reason why Link's bombs and his boomerang don't hit him is because of their friendly properties. They would need to be a neutral entity like Mr. Saturn in order to be able to hit Link. Plus, think about changing his boomerang: Link uses it to get someone near him and finish them off with spin attack. The unfriendly boomerang pushes him off the ledge and he dies.

I agree with both CF suggestions, also granted I'm not a seasoned C Falcon player but I couldnt find much opportunity to actually use dtilt, it seems too slow to be operable.

 

[Rykoshet]

Maybe you should speed up Ike's moves a bit, they are really hard to connect sometimes.

lol wut? Reading up on this has made my head hurt

 

[Rykoshet]

Agh I did not mean to triple post, I wanted to edit my previous one, I'm sorry.

Again, don't suggest changes to characters unless they actually need them.

What you want =/= What they need

Ike needs a viable Dsmash, as mentioned of you want a frame 13 move, use up tilt. If you want to punish a roll by frame 30 (really 29 for this suggestion), you were better off throwing fsmash the other way and taking them out at 90 damage less than when Dsmash reliably kills. It needs to be faster. It needs to be a viable action against characters who are going to dodge or roll their way out of a situation and it needs to hit fast enough on the hits to make dropping it while someone's right on top of you a good option.

I realize that timings should be modified as a last resort but in order to change Ike to make him viable against Olimar you either do this, or you give him a powerful grab game or you increase the damage on all of his moves enough to cause significant shield tear and pushback.

The last two are going to tip a lot of match-ups, speeding up and slightly powering up Dsmash is simply going to make Ike have a tool against ground based short characters that can easily punish his other moves.

i.e. Olimar

Your third suggestion about shield push, if it were doable, would be the best hope. Ike suffers from zelda syndrome against Olimar, plain fact really. If you change ike's grab game at all you in fact make the olimar matchup worse as it sets up a practically guaranteed 0-death from anywhere on most stages. I've hit waltz with this too many times for it to be a fluke.

Back Aerial hits too high up when rising to touch Olimar at all.

Incorrect.

 

[Adler]

I was sceptical at first. I though it would be like Brawl+ which just has an air of unprofessionality (like a load of codes which worked well alone being all put into one game and finding that they don't work well together).

But this is entirly different, from what I gather (from this thread and the videos I've seen) it's got a few good things while not causing any massive changes which make it difficult to learn to play.

I can't wait for PAL codes to come out (and for homebrew to become available on updated Wiis).

 

[Deleted member]

adler you really are badly informed.

1)don't want to bring in B+ here but what was the last time you played B+??
we have a team of 15 people working on B+ and we are very serious about it. if you don't like the way it works fine, but don't dare saying we are unproffesional. if B+ didn't exists none of the codes BBrawl uses would be here. be a little but more gratefull for that.

2) PAL is already out, use search function >_>

3) you can already homebrew updated wii's >_______>

 

[Epic Kovumon]

-Get rid of cargo glitch

Amen to that.

 

[Ussi]

hmm I wonder how much shield stun Ike's nair inflicts on a shield.

Basically we'd need to make Ike's nair's ending lag = 6 (IC's grab) + 1 frame for landing + (shield stun time - hit lag Ike suffers) + maybe extra frames for lee way depending on how much shield stun there is for IC to shield grab even a perfectly landed but not spaced nair.

though i could be thinking wrong.. but i don't think there is much shield stun on Ike's nair so yea..

A thought maybe guys? No replies to it.. so gonna bring it up again. Just so Ike can pressure Olimar's shield without being auto-***** by a shield grab.

 

[ffdgh]

spacing is a good idea i guess but w/e

 

[Renegade TX2000]

lol i 0 death weruops oli all the time with vBrawl but that's online plus he ends up coming back and winning lol

 

[daisho]

First, I want to say that the diddy comment was misguided. I could have just as easily been Marth or G&W; the idea is that that is the rough level we are aiming for characters to move to.

Second, these are not two different ways of balancing characters. Saying I want people to be "similar to Diddy" is the WHO; who gets buffed (those below), and who gets nerfed. (those above). Saying we are going to focus on the worst matchups is the HOW; the parts of the character we are going to improve in order to get them up to that "Diddy level" r whatever you want to call it. Not only are these two concepts not at odds with each other, but they go hand-in-hand to the point that neither could proceed without the other; we have to know both who to buff, and we have to know how to to do.

If DK needs changes, as proven by matchups, then he will naturally get changes. Naturally, these changes will be selected to help him deal with the problem matchups. For example, nair angle buff might be a great way to deal with spacies if they prove to be too good agaisnt DK. Floaties a problem? Maybe d-smash could be even stronger? I'm jsut braininstorming off the top of my head, obviously real consideration would take a long time, involve readings form the DK board, watching videos, and talkign to DK mains; all after reviewing that initial matchup data.



Remember, this is a preview. It was never intended to be a candidate for exceptional balance, even if it is a good step forward on many fronts. The intent is to gather matchup data to help make educated and informed changes, taking into consideration the major metagame changes.

Thank you for responding to all my points.

So if I understand correctly, you don't want to bring characters up to diddy level, but the low S high A tiers were basically okay and you just wanted to buff everyone below them so they didn't have bad matchups?

Even thought this is a preview i'm a bit baffled how kirby got nothing, but I'm sure that will change soon.

Hopefully i'll be getting a wii this week and then I can test this out. It looks really interesting and I definitely support the idea.

 

[zxeon]

I was sceptical at first. I though it would be like Brawl+ which just has an air of unprofessionality (like a load of codes which worked well alone being all put into one game and finding that they don't work well together).

But this is entirly different, from what I gather (from this thread and the videos I've seen) it's got a few good things while not causing any massive changes which make it difficult to learn to play.

I can't wait for PAL codes to come out (and for homebrew to become available on updated Wiis).

It seems the ignorant will agree with anything you say if your name is red on SWF.

I don't know what your heard or what your perceptions about Brawl+ are but what Paprika Killer said is right. We started from the ground up. Balanced Brawl is merely riding our coat tails. What they are doing now we did back in October when your were still busy flaming us.

 

[Zephil]

I was playing with my brother yesterday. I used snake and he used random... when the match began both of us had snake with the original color! So i don´t know if this only works on random or you can choose to repeat colors in a same match.

I just wanted to state this, sorry if this was stated before

 

[Steeler]

i suggest dropping the B+ topic before anything else that insults either side comes up.

 

[Epic Kovumon]

I was playing with my brother yesterday. I used snake and he used random... when the match began both of us had snake with the original color! So i don´t know if this only works on random or you can choose to repeat colors in a same match.

I just wanted to state this, sorry if this was stated before

I've had this happen to me in vBrawl with G&W.

 

[adumbrodeus]

i suggest dropping the B+ topic before anything else that insults either side comes up.

On that note....


WE LIKE IKE!

So beyond speeding up his moves, any other possible fixes for his Olimar match-up?

[/change topic]

 

[Thinkaman]

Thank you for responding to all my points.

So if I understand correctly, you don't want to bring characters up to diddy level, but the low S high A tiers were basically okay and you just wanted to buff everyone below them so they didn't have bad matchups?

Even thought this is a preview i'm a bit baffled how kirby got nothing, but I'm sure that will change soon.

Hopefully i'll be getting a wii this week and then I can test this out. It looks really interesting and I definitely support the idea.

It seems like you think we released this assuming that everyone is equal; that is obviously not the case. We *knew* there were many characters like Peach, Zelda, Sheik, and Kirby that would definitely be in the lower half of the cast in this release.

However, that's why this is a preview. Instead of just throwing buffs at them, we need to see how they interact with the newly buffed characters as well. Make sense?

WE LIKE IKE!

So beyond speeding up his moves, any other possible fixes for his Olimar match-up?

This is going to be a hard one to fix; honestly if we can get this matchup to merely 40:60, that is fine with me.

D-smash keep coming up. Can Ike hit Olimar with d-smash, does Ike force him to roll? What if, just brainstorming here, we gave d-smash healthy horizontal knockback? Getting the enemy off-stage is a lot more dangerous agaisnt Olimar than other characters, so this might be a good place to start looking.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

i rather have the dsmash knock them straight up in the air vertically... so i can laugh at thinkamans jigglypuff in the process.

 

[Bladewing]

anyone here want to play me in balanced brawl online? (am i allowed to post here about this lol?)

east coast only

 

[Rykoshet]

If you changed the front hit box of dsmash to be like jigglypuff's dsmash in knockback angle i'd call that a worthwhile change, it'd still need to be at the very most frame 8 though.

 

[MysticKenji]

anyone here want to play me in balanced brawl online? (am i allowed to post here about this lol?)

east coast only

I'll play you

 

[Ussi]

making dsmash a horizontal kill move actually gives it use as utilt will be a 13 frame vertical and dsmash can be a 13 frame horizontal....


I really think just give Ike the ability to pressure Olimar's shield with nair > jab will make it 40-60... still not a good idea? As dsmash still might need a speed up either way..

 

[Big O]

One interesting property about Ganon is that damage buffs start to allow him to punch straight through other attacks, since they do so much to begin with. Clash? What's that mean?

I was playing around a bit just now with a 19% f-tilt (sweetspot), enough to clash with a Samus charge shot. It's also going to plow through any attack that the opponent was trying to do to stop it as long as Ganon gets it out. Sure, having the frames to get it out is hard, but nineteen percent!

That's big shield damage too.

Of course, this is all just testing and experimentation.

I can't comprehend the awesomeness of a 19 damage sweetspot on sparta kick. It sounds too amazing lol. I can see the extra priority helping out vs tilts and multi hit smash attacks more than helping him vs the charge shot though. But that must have been a satisfying test lol.

Wow that gave me a big idea for an interesting Ganon buff. I looked at what projectiles each character had and noticed that a lot of the ones you can clank with do 6 or less damage. Mario's fireball, Luigi's fireball, Olimar's purple pikmin throw, mid range turnips, Tjolts, mid range boomerangs, Pit's arrows, Ivy's razor leaf, baby aura spheres at low damage, and uncharged Link/Tink arrows. If the weak part of Ganon's down b (the weak part seems to clank much more reliably than the initial part) did 15 damage it would be just enough to pierce through all of these attacks and kill purple/blue pikmin in one hit. It would give Ganon a high risk but high reward approach against those characters when they resort to spam. It would also only pierce through most of those moves when fresh so it can't be spammed either (lol at the idea that it could be spammed or Ganon spamming in general). As long as the knockback is adjusted for the damage while being safe on hit at any damage this could be a very nice dynamic in his playstyle. It would give some nice leverage especially in the bolded characters.

 

[Adler]

adler you really are badly informed.

1)don't want to bring in B+ here but what was the last time you played B+??
we have a team of 15 people working on B+ and we are very serious about it. if you don't like the way it works fine, but don't dare saying we are unproffesional. if B+ didn't exists none of the codes BBrawl uses would be here. be a little but more gratefull for that.

2) PAL is already out, use search function >_>

3) you can already homebrew updated wii's >_______>

I feel ashamed that I said that.
I'm really sorry.

 

[YagamiLight]

This is going to be a hard one to fix; honestly if we can get this matchup to merely 40:60, that is fine with me.

D-smash keep coming up. Can Ike hit Olimar with d-smash, does Ike force him to roll? What if, just brainstorming here, we gave d-smash healthy horizontal knockback? Getting the enemy off-stage is a lot more dangerous agaisnt Olimar than other characters, so this might be a good place to start looking.

Ike can't really force Olimar to roll behind him so as to get hit by the second hit of Dsmash. If you were to give it horizontal knockback akin to Ganondorf's that would be nice but as Ryko said the speed would still need to be reduced. It wouldn't be an over powered attack at all considering it would still have around a second of endlag time.

Knockback Angle Similar to Ganon's Ftilt
+1 damage to both hits
First hit frame down to 7

No further changes required to Ike at all.

 

[Anomilus]

WARNING: Really long post ahead!! O_O

Played a bunch of matches yesterday. Was late though, so I waited till now to post more data and some potential ideas!

---------

I could definitely go with nerfing Falco just a bit. One of the issues I've always had with Falco is that overall his moveset and playstyle just does such an overwhelmingly good job of guarding his own hitbox that despite his difficulty with landing KOs, an even remotely good Falco can dominate so easily because so few opportunities arise for the opponent to take the lead and keep it. A good deal of Falco's moves seem to hit through his opponents even though it seems like his priority should be average. His moves link into each other so well, allowing him to control the flow of the battle for long periods of times. When the opponent does finally manage to start dictating the flow of the match, Falco has Phantasm, Reflector, AND Laser to disrupt his opponent and escape, easily resetting things in an instant. Then it starts all over again. THEN there's the capability to score a sudden spike gimp on the opponent.

The person I played suggested modifying Falco's DAir so it didn't combo as easily (he was able to pop me up with DAir and send me flying to the ground with the same move). Based on that, perhaps an angle change to direct the victim a little bit further from Falco so retaliating with a 2nd DAir wouldn't be as easy. Also a slight decrease on the spike hitbox's knockback growth maybe? Basically I'm picturing a DAir that doesn't score early gimps too soon, but doesn't lead into itself too easily considering how fast it can start up.

Outside of DAir, I think Falco should have to work just a little bit more to get his opponent into KO range. Some -1 damage nerfs on FTilt, Reflector, Phantasm, DSmash, and perhaps the first and/or second hit of his jab may do the trick. Other than that though I'm actually not against him retaining his ability to reset things easily or to diminish his KO power. If these changes were in, I might actually tolerate his FSmash, which I REALLY dislike dealing with.

Oh, and this is still considering the changes made to Falco's throws. My opponent said the lack of chain throwing didn't pose much of a problem. I would agree myself.

Reading some of the match-ups, my suggestions may only really give Falco problems dealing with Marth and G&W - mainly since they have the range and priority to actually threaten Falco.

--------------------

I'm starting to think Captain Falcon's knee really was over-buffed. Not that big of a deal first, my opponent is extremely good with Falcon, meaning he can land those knees often, meaning he was KO'ing me as early as 65%+ from the middle of the stage. Strangely enough he only slightly picked up on it. I don't think buffing it was a bad idea, but I think boosting it to 24% turned into an absolute monster. Perhaps a slight decrease to 21% may be more of a modest buff. Another idea could be giving a damage buff to the sourspot knee as supposed to the buff towards the sweetspot knee. Just an idea. Outside of that though I would say Falcon's currently quite good due to having an easier time setting up opponents for aerial juggles.

-------------------

Fox should definitely be one of the next characters put on the table for buffs. I understand the concept of him being a "Glass Cannon", but as it stands now I think this inherent strategy needs a little help.

I reflect on a certain Pokemon called Rampardos, also referred to as a "Glass Cannon". Unfortunately alongside his weak defenses is a crippling low speed and mediocre moveset pool. He can hit brutally hard, but it can rarely be done as other pokemon easily outspeed and wreck him before he even gets a chance to attack.

Now Fox does have more than enough speed to wail on the opponent. I just don't think his moveset is as up to par right now. The problem I see is a character who has to get in close most of the time to rack up damage, meaning the opponent will have plenty of opportunities to rack up damage themselves. Fox has his options, but as a whole he only tends to dominate the large bulky characters provided they don't surprise him and wipe out a stock with their sheer power.

Basically, you'll rarely see Fox control the match (at high levels of play) as much as he'll go toe-to-toe with the opponent and hopefully come out on top. That sounds like the ideal balance, but not when Fox is so light and more reliant speedy hit-and-run that it's more likely the opponent will overpower him or wall him.

I'm proposing what Fox likely needs is just a few damage buffs so that he can get his opponent to KO range just a bit sooner. This is almost the reverse of what I would like to see out of Falco; where as Falco should be damage-nerfed to balance out his good range and stage-control abilities, Fox should be damaged-buffed to balance out his weak range and mediocre stage-control abilities. (I'm not forgetting about Fox's lasers, but without hitstun they're not really as threatening, as say, Falco's lasers)

+1 damage to F-Tilt, D-Tilt, Reflector, one or both of his first jabs, Illusion, Nair, and BAir. That's all I can really think of, but I think those alone would really help Fox get around his issues with having to compromise with risks and rewards almost constantly.

...

You know, you could also opt to ignore those buff suggestions and just give his throw lasers knockback and tactical angles so they act similarly to Falco's throw lasers. Though that would definitely qualify for a Game Changer, but it's a suggestion.

-----------------

"CAN'T LET YOU HOG THIS, STAR FOX!!"

The spacies wouldn't be complete without comments on Wolf.

Wolf is definitely the toughest of the three to identify any issues with. He doesn't really have any bad moves. Only his Fire Wolf and a couple of his throws stand out as being lousy, and throws can't be directly edited for whatever reason. Basically he's just solidly built as a character, only having one glaring weakness, that being his recovery. Despite this though I just don't think he's currently at the point where we can say he doesn't need much of anything. The problem with being solid everywhere is that he doesn't really excel anywhere. He's just good. With some match-ups, "good" ain't good enough.

Wolf has a lot of solid match-ups in vBrawl right now, but I'm predicting in BBrawl that he's going to fall behind unless he gets a little something right now. That something is that angle change to his Reflector, as somebody else in this thread suggested. Considering Wolf is a character that takes to the air a whole lot and is capable of juggling quite well, having a defensive option that sets up the opponent would be a real boon to him. At the same time I don't think it'll make him any more dominant than he already is. No damage/knockback buffs are really necessary at the moment since they would only serve to skew match-ups more towards his favor.

Give this change to his reflector some thought. Considering others have been buffed and others are going to get buffed in the future, some future-proofing may be all he really needs. If by any chance he really does start to dominate a bit too well, it's only one change to undo.

------------------------

I did play a bit of Pikachu as well yesterday. I'm starting to think he does need something. While I was still able to follow up some of my throws with other attacks, I just felt generally underpowered. Can't really say what tells me this, but Pikachu, similarly to Wolf, is going to need something so he can keep up with the others.

As a character, Pikachu reminds me of Fox, except trickier and more projectile oriented. The changes to his throw did indeed impede upon his ability to rack up damage, and with nothing to make up for it, he's currently weaker than his vBrawl counterpart. If the goal is to retain Pikachu's playstyle while improving his chances in key match-ups, I would say he needs some new tricks. Nothing major, but just enough to make up for his weakened grab game.

Some suggestions (NOT suggesting to implement ALL of these adjustments):

- Increased initial knockback of DTilt and increase the angle, causing early-percentage minor pop-up and allowing Pikachu to follow up with his aerials.

- Increased initial knockback / slightly decreased knockback growth of of FSmash sourspot (mainly the tip). Once again, the idea is to allow for early-percentage pop-ups. At the same time I'm trying to avoid buffing his KO power as I see his slight difficulty landing KOs as a defining characteristic.

- Increased knockback to USmash sourspot. Just a general improvement to prevent players from punishing it if it lands. I'd have to look at this, but perhaps the angle could be altered too.

- +1 damage to a couple of the starting frames of DSmash. Just a minor damage buff without affecting its knockback too much.

- lower angle on Dash Attack. Would make it a bit better than it is right now if it sends the opponent at a more annoying angle. Then again they could tech out of it if they only skim the ground.

- lower angle on NAir. The idea is to turn it into a dangerous move that sends opponents off stage at a lousy angle. It already has good knockback, so no need to buff that. Plus, it's a combo finisher.

- Increased knockback on DAir ground shockwave OR -1 damage & trips opponent. This is just more or less an additional option for the DAir. Pika still lags a good deal upon landing this, so the tripping effect may or may not be as effective of an idea. The knockback suggestion could make for a better get-off move.

- Increased initial knockback / slight decreased knockback growth & slightly lowered angle on Skull Bash. Just trying to make it a little more worth landing the move. It would still be very risky to use offensively.

Well those are all my suggestions, and yet I can't say for certainty any of them will even be needed. We need more Pikachu mains to give BBrawl a test run before even one of these suggestions can be seriously considered...


-------------------

Ugh...where's the data on ROB? (As in a condensed list of his match-up ratios?). Well I guess I can't say too much about him as I don't main or use him as often.

All I know is that people say he sucks at setting up kills, and that seems to be more or less one of his characteristics. Buffing his KO power then doesn't seem like such a great idea. He racks up damage quite nicely, but then he has to go out of his comfort zone to KO.

Blah blah blah I suggest making his Gyro projectile trip opponents at all times, effectively making the Gyro ROB's "banana" of sorts (lol...>_>). It can be a rather annoying projectile to deal with, both when thrown and just sitting there. Perhaps giving it the ability to incapacitate the opponent could be just what ROB needs. He can already slide-toss it to stun opponents and then strike them. The trip would just add even more pressure to the mix. At the same time the projectile should still carry its own weaknesses; shielding it causes the projectile to vanish entirely, and the opponent can still reflect it and/or pick it up and use it against ROB.

Other than that, perhaps an increased angle on his FTilt to send opponents in the air and at a favorable angle? That's it. =P

------------------------

Ganon STILL needs buffing unfortunately. He took a few steps ahead, but some characters did the same thing and still end up beating him down pretty bad (Link being one of them). He's supposed to be a character that struggles to get in, then devastates when he does. Perhaps though it's still not enough. The tripping and grounding definitely helps situations where the opponent is near the ground, but what about the air?

I suggest a major buff on NAir and a minor buff on FAir as starters.

- Set knockback on NAir's first hitbox so it always leads into its 2nd hitbox. The 2nd hitbox should get a MAJOR buff in its knockback growth. Basically keep it as a good get-off move, but then make it so it can really launch opponents away at higher percents. Not necessarily to make it a KO move, but another option along with UAir sounds nice. Perhaps the proper buffs would allow it to beat out certain character's aerials, though I wouldn't be able to say what. Just a thought.

- +1 damage / increased knockback of FAir (both sweet and sour spots). Let's make this move really worthwhile to land. It's quite strong as it is, but I don't see a reason it can't be stronger. It already suffers from horrible landing lag, so it mind as well be a pretty devastating move.

- +1 damage / increased knockback to BAir. No explanation needed.

There. These should help just a little bit more. I can't say for sure they're gonna aid him against the likes of Marth or Link, but getting into the opponent's space should prove even more rewarding now.

===================

There!! All done for now! I'm not going to expect any of these to be accepted immediately or at all. Just trying to further things a little quicker considering we still don't have relatively many folks on this. Excuse my long-winded-ness, but that's just how I do things.

I also did play Mario, Lucario, and Ness quite a bit. I just haven't come up with any real thoughts on them. At the same time I don't think they're just quite perfect yet. Jigglypuff continues to seem pretty solid, but I think I need to play more matches with her. I did play a bit better with Wario yesterday and noticed the nerfs less. I'll keep looking into him. Meta Knight definitely doesn't dominate too easily. Pokemon Trainer and Yoshi continue to be awesome; unless things change, I really think they're set and done, so nice job on them! I have used Luigi, but I lack a lot of practice with him, so my data's not really useful in this case.

I need to say this, but don't expect ANY data regarding Zero Suit Samus, Toon Link, or Olimar from me. Those three characters I just don't use for whatever reasons, so I would be of little to no help there. =/

 

[ffdgh]

lol great wall of text . it was a good read
imo falco seems solid the way he is now
agreed on fox and wolf lol, they need a tad more attention here's the thing with the space animals.
fox has the best up smash
falco has the best side smash
wolf has the best down smash

if they all had all three, they would be the space animals of melee again >_> lol
pika down throw is good for a follow up of a up smash or a down smash(lol kill someone with the d smash by semi spiking them)

try out the new link if you have the time, he's a killer now with his new up b on the ground

 

[Anomilus]

I don't have to play Link. I was playing Stroumbert yesterday, and if you know him, you know he has a really good Link, and even he says Link ***** now (and being victim to those blasted arrows and Up B, I'd have to agree).

You also have to see his Falco as well. I didn't come to my conclusions because he ***** me with him (even in BBrawl). I always felt that way about Falco regardless of who's using him. Perhaps he doesn't need as much nerfing as I suggested, but just a little nerf would go a long way in furthering balance.

I'll try out Pikachu a bit more myself.

For the time being, I'm gonna jump back to vBrawl since I'll be able to play more people and focus on those current match-ups.

-----

Off-topic, but I did find a list containing the hex codes for all music tracks, allowing me to change the Wifi training room theme to a different one. :o

 

[ffdgh]

lol go for it

 

[Thinkaman]

I can't comprehend the awesomeness of a 19 damage sweetspot on sparta kick. It sounds too amazing lol. I can see the extra priority helping out vs tilts and multi hit smash attacks more than helping him vs the charge shot though. But that must have been a satisfying test lol.

Right, it really was just a symbolic exercise.

Wow that gave me a big idea for an interesting Ganon buff. I looked at what projectiles each character had and noticed that a lot of the ones you can clank with do 6 or less damage. Mario's fireball, Luigi's fireball, Olimar's purple pikmin throw, mid range turnips, Tjolts, mid range boomerangs, Pit's arrows, Ivy's razor leaf, baby aura spheres at low damage, and uncharged Link/Tink arrows. If the weak part of Ganon's down b (the weak part seems to clank much more reliably than the initial part) did 15 damage it would be just enough to pierce through all of these attacks and kill purple/blue pikmin in one hit. It would give Ganon a high risk but high reward approach against those characters when they resort to spam. It would also only pierce through most of those moves when fresh so it can't be spammed either (lol at the idea that it could be spammed or Ganon spamming in general). As long as the knockback is adjusted for the damage while being safe on hit at any damage this could be a very nice dynamic in his playstyle. It would give some nice leverage especially in the bolded characters.

This is a good observation. I am testing with this right now, actually.

Ike can't really force Olimar to roll behind him so as to get hit by the second hit of Dsmash. If you were to give it horizontal knockback akin to Ganondorf's that would be nice but as Ryko said the speed would still need to be reduced. It wouldn't be an over powered attack at all considering it would still have around a second of endlag time.

Knockback Angle Similar to Ganon's Ftilt
+1 damage to both hits
First hit frame down to 7

No further changes required to Ike at all.

Ike is really close to where he needs to be, and if he does need a buff, there's no way it will end up being a timing buff. (To anything.) D-smash *is* Ike's top buff candidate, but I think you are underestimating just how dangerous it becomes when it is hitting at even a modest horizontal angle. In some testing, I killed an Olimar at 65% with a 20 degree version. (If buffed, it would not be buffed quite that much!)

WARNING: Really long post ahead!! O_O

First, thanks for the great post.

To cover Falco first, we'll almost certainly wait for more feedback before we rush to any judgements on him. A lot of buffs both in place and upcoming, target Falco matchups specifically. I don't think he will have any matchups better than 60:40. My only worry is that Falco will like the newly viable stages more than most, but we'll see.

Glad to hear Falcon is doing well!

Fox has a steep learning curve, but I think he will be left alone for the time being too. He's a very capable character and we'll need to see further how he fits into a metagame where he isn't wrecked from three sides.

Wolf is feeling good and might get a minor buff to something like nair in the future. He also enjoys the new stages.

Pikachu we are still investigating heavily. Please, more feedback everyone!

ROB we have not looked at yet, but we intend to. I did do a preliminary check and look-over for his tilt hitbox data, though, to prepare greater familiarity with his moveset.

Ganon is under consideration too, of course. Nair is a reasonable thing to think about that is underconsideration. At the moment I'm focusing on his ground game, but in an hour or so I'll start looking at aerials more.

Thanks again! Back to work for me.

 

[Swordplay]

Edit: You want to know what..........I don't care anymore.

 

[Bouse]

Why not make his bombs send people the way that physics deems they should?

Away from the point of explosion.

I know this is probably impossible, but I felt like bringing it up to be a bit of a jerk.

Science! It tastes like burning!

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

If my Wii is not hacked, approximately how long will it be before it becomes available?

 

[Bladewing]

If my Wii is not hacked, approximately how long will it be before it becomes available?

not very long though save some time for it. You'll need several things to hack your wii, depending on what version your wii is. Look it up on google and youtube, they can help you very well.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Guys.. I recently knew of this project. I bow to you with gratitude. This is really what we needed. A balanced game. I will hack my Wii just to play this. The idea of a 35 character cast that is close to balance is good enough for me. It is fantastic. The good thing is that it can be revised. Don't let negative people discourage you, this is more interesting than Brawl+. Many of us like Brawl the way it is, but we hate that there are things like chaingrabs and infinites that ruin the game. And we hate that there are broken characters and others that are too weak to keep up. Unfortunately, every game flaw is exploited on competitive play. So have a remade game by the community with better testing and balancing is a solution and is great. Brawl is my favorite videogame ever and I was sad with it problems. I would happily hack it to make it a balanced (thus better) game. I could never understand why would someone reject this chance to make things right. Even Snake and MK mainers should feel good that they can now keep their favorite characters without being called cheap. You have all my humble support. I will spread the word.


P.D: I am wondering if Sheik's buffs are enough to make her as good as Diddy. Diddy is almost broken in vBrawl. I think Sheik needs a bit more of KO power on her Fsmash and her aerials to be good enough.

 

[Thinkaman]

P.D: I am wondering if Sheik's buffs are enough to make her as good as Diddy. Diddy is almost broken in vBrawl. I think Sheik needs a bit more of KO power on her Fsmash and her aerials to be good enough.

Thanks for your support, but if you read a lot of the posts, you'll see that this is just a preview. We know we aren't done yet, especially with some characters, and this public release is to build feedback to work towards the next step.

I actually just got done package-testing a bundle of changes include a few for Sheik. I found a few issues that were easily fixed, but overall things look good.

 

[YagamiLight]

Ike is really close to where he needs to be, and if he does need a buff, there's no way it will end up being a timing buff. (To anything.) D-smash *is* Ike's top buff candidate, but I think you are underestimating just how dangerous it becomes when it is hitting at even a modest horizontal angle. In some testing, I killed an Olimar at 65% with a 20 degree version. (If buffed, it would not be buffed quite that much!)

Well if you don't improve the timing it'll be a nice kill move against Olimar (and I guess it's fast enough as a surprise jab cancel) but it probably won't actually help against the main problem. Could you test how much percent you'd need to raise the damage on Fair to make it safe on Olimar's shield?

 

[Thinkaman]

Well if you don't improve the timing it'll be a nice kill move against Olimar (and I guess it's fast enough as a surprise jab cancel) but it probably won't actually help against the main problem. Could you test how much percent you'd need to raise the damage on Fair to make it safe on Olimar's shield?

A gazillion.

Olimar vs. Ike is not going to be 50-50 guys; Olimar's grabtastic game is always going to make him one of Ike's worst matchups; if Ike went even with Olimar, he would be 70:30 or 80:20 against many other characters. Just as Olimar is always going to be at a disadvantage of flaoty characters that avoid his grabs easily...