Balanced Brawl Public Preview *GENESIS UPDATE*

[AfroPingas]

Having the PAL GCT file in the download link would be really neat >___>

 

[YagamiLight]

mk's neutral A should be better to make up for his tornado... i mean i F"ing hate mk but i atleast respect him lulz i don't want mk fans to be left out. =/ btw i'm going to be testing this out soon thinkaman so i'll throw out some results when i "can".

Yeah, I agree with this. MK's jab is pretty terrible. It could use some help.

See also: Snake's Dtilt.

 

[Big O]

One silly problem is that ganon cannot f-tilt the fully charged shot anymore. More damage on f-tilt? Maybe Wiz-kick too?

D-tilt is three hitboxes, and the third one is the vast majority of it's size... ergo, both the part used to hit out of side-b, and the tip.

I'm still not at all convinced that Ganon can't have balanced matchups without faster moves. (Triple negative?) In all Ganon matches I play, and the ones I see, the problem isn't that Ganon is not able to hit opponents near him; the issue is that Ganon isn't doing enough when he gets in to make up for the trouble it took him to get there. Ganon always DOES eventually get in, but he is slow at doing it.

I think buffing damage on jab will round out his matchups some, for those where jab is the only option out of side-b.

Great post, BTW. Sorry I'm rushing about doing a dozen things at once.

I think he can be balanced without frame speed adjustment too but I just think it would take more buffs to do so.

I guess the picture in Swoop's guide is wrong then about his Dtilt.

Buffing the Ftilt/down b damage to cancel out her charge shot is a good idea.

 

[ffdgh]

hmm online ffa
lol anyone wanna brawl tho? wanna practice some more since im becoming a tad rusty

 

[Renegade TX2000]

since mk's dsmash is alot weaker. I suggest making mk's neutral A combo and doing like 1%, 2% more dmg every hit. LOL NVM 2% F that, but basically having mk's neutral A combo into his ftilt, dsmash, 100% of the time UNLESS you SDI to get out etc.

 

[Thinkaman]

I think he can be balanced without frame speed adjustment too but I just think it would take more buffs to do so.

I guess the picture in Swoop's guide is wrong then about his Dtilt.

Buffing the Ftilt/down b damage to cancel out her charge shot is a good idea.

One interesting property about Ganon is that damage buffs start to allow him to punch straight through other attacks, since they do so much to begin with. Clash? What's that mean?

I was playing around a bit just now with a 19% f-tilt (sweetspot), enough to clash with a Samus charge shot. It's also going to plow through any attack that the opponent was trying to do to stop it as long as Ganon gets it out. Sure, having the frames to get it out is hard, but nineteen percent!

That's big shield damage too.

Of course, this is all just testing and experimentation.

 

[ffdgh]

test away
find that certain path
now ill use some textures today
and for ganon, make that thunder punch like more damage like a 3 hitter

 

[Chaco]

I want to point something out. Well it seems in this video of bBrawl Yoshi when he uses his Fair it does the in the ground thing....even when it mis-hits.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMFTVFfTw8o

That's a mis-hit fair. I'm pretty sure.

Speaking of mis-hit fair now. It does more damage than the regular fair. By 1%. Always has, which is pretty lame. It's much harder to get it hit right and the mis-hit does more damage. More buff on Fair when it hits solid?

 

[Revven]

Yeah, I agree with this. MK's jab is pretty terrible. It could use some help.

See also: Snake's Dtilt.

Making changes because we can is always stupid. Don't do this unless the move is truly broken in the way it works (see: Toon Link Fsmash and Sheik Fsmash, both of which are punished when you LAND them). MK's jab in the meanwhile isn't part of his game and doesn't need a change "just because we can", he doesn't get punished from using it that badly in the same vein TL does when he lands that very first hit of Fsmash. You don't see smart MKs using jab ... or even when they do, they don't get rested like TL does...

 

[Anomilus]

Hey I have a question regarding one of the codes in the codeset:


WiFi Training Room Music
* 0410FE04 386327C3

Anybody know how to change this to play a different song? Is there a list I can use? I thought I found a list, but either none of the values on the list match what I see in this code, or I'm not reading the code properly. Thanks in advance!

 

[Chaco]

Making changes because we can is always stupid. Don't do this unless the move is truly broken in the way it works (see: Toon Link Fsmash and Sheik Fsmash, both of which are punished when you LAND them). MK's jab in the meanwhile isn't part of his game and doesn't need a change "just because we can", he doesn't get punished from using it that badly in the same vein TL does when he lands that very first hit of Fsmash. You don't see smart MKs using jab ... or even when they do, they don't get rested like TL does...

I agree with this logic to an extent. Don't fix what isn't broken.

 

[Rouenne]

Maybe you should speed up Ike's moves a bit, they are really hard to connect sometimes.

Also, just a request but nothing else, could you change the Master Sword in both Link's golden?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Your probably not using his 10 Bomb AT's and 5 movement AT's and 5 misc. and situational AT's that will make you crap your pants................put 3 hours a day Into learning his AT's because you never bothered before because he sucked and you will find he is pretty solid now.

But the real question remains.

Is Link vs Ganon awesome incarnate?

In term's of Ganon's stuff that everyones talking about.

Why not touch his N-air?

 

[Renegade TX2000]

XD yea speed up how fast i win tournies is what that sounds like.

 

[Linkshot]

Alright. I just want to say this.

Before you start going "please change this and this", provide matchup evidence where this move could depolarise by being buffed, as well as evidence that it won't polarise any other matchups.

I don't think textures even matter. Isn't that a different thread altogether?

 

[YagamiLight]

Making changes because we can is always stupid. Don't do this unless the move is truly broken in the way it works (see: Toon Link Fsmash and Sheik Fsmash, both of which are punished when you LAND them). MK's jab in the meanwhile isn't part of his game and doesn't need a change "just because we can", he doesn't get punished from using it that badly in the same vein TL does when he lands that very first hit of Fsmash. You don't see smart MKs using jab ... or even when they do, they don't get rested like TL does...

Yeah, you've got a really valid point that I overlooked. Don't fix it just because you can.

Maybe you should speed up Ike's moves a bit, they are really hard to connect sometimes.

Nah, Ike really doesn't need his moves sped up. Most of them are just right for what their roles are. The only move I'd actually suggest speeding up (Besides counter which isn't possible) is Ike's Down Smash. That move is seriously bottom tier. If Captain Falcon powershields the first hit of the Down Smash he can hit Ike with a Falcon Punch, IIRC. The move isn't even worth it in the first place. 13% and weak power on the first 13 frame hit, 16% on the other part that's not going to hit unless your opponent spams rolls.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

THANKYOUUUUUUUU!!! SAVIOR! lol ikes dsmash is bottom tier.

 

[Linkshot]

Where would dSmash improve bad matchups? I'm pretty sure Falcon isn't a bad matchup, so you're taking away basically one of his few advantages.

 

[Delta Z]

I think I might have a few ideas for minor buffs for Kirby. I don't expect most of these to be used; just throwing ideas out.
-Increase uair's damage from 10% to 12%. It has lower knockback than Kirby's other aerials, which means it was probably intended to be a damage dealer. Making it do more damage would work toward that cause.
-Decrease the angle on bthrow's knockback. Making its knockback lower will make it easier to lead into a bair, including a WoP if it's on the edge of the stage.
-Decrease the knockback on every hitbox of the dash attack except the last one. It'll make it a little easier to build damage with, and make it an okay combo/string finisher.
-Slightly increase the hitstun when Kirby copies inhaled opponents. Just enough to make him able to block any counterattacks.
-Increase the damage of Kirby's utilt by 1%, and his ftilt & dtilt by 1-2%.

And when you edited some characters' B attacks, did you edit the versions Kirby gets too?

 

[MysticKenji]

And when you edited some characters' B attacks, did you edit the versions Kirby gets too?

No, those weren't changed.

 

[Linkshot]

Again, don't suggest changes to characters unless they actually need them.

What you want =/= What they need

 

[ffdgh]

aww c'mon any 1 wanna play online
and i tried the new link out more and i can definitely see the strength difference

 

[YagamiLight]

Where would dSmash improve bad matchups? I'm pretty sure Falcon isn't a bad matchup, so you're taking away basically one of his few advantages.

I'm pretty sure having another ground option besides jab would certainly improve match-ups.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Nah, Ike really doesn't need his moves sped up. Most of them are just right for what their roles are. The only move I'd actually suggest speeding up (Besides counter which isn't possible) is Ike's Down Smash. That move is seriously bottom tier. If Captain Falcon powershields the first hit of the Down Smash he can hit Ike with a Falcon Punch, IIRC. The move isn't even worth it in the first place. 13% and weak power on the first 13 frame hit, 16% on the other part that's not going to hit unless your opponent spams rolls.

Wow...

I need to stop using that move to punish predicted rolls.

I guess I'll just short-hop, if I'm right, bair, if I'm wrong, retreating nair. Heck, nair works period.

Where would dSmash improve bad matchups? I'm pretty sure Falcon isn't a bad matchup, so you're taking away basically one of his few advantages.

After hearing that, what compitent Ike would ever use d-smash in that match-up? Ever?!

It's not an advantage taken away realistically, it's like saying getting rid of cape **** hurts Mario against MK, what compitent MK player would use down-b anyway?

 

[MysticKenji]

aww c'mon any 1 wanna play online

I'll play if you want.

 

[YagamiLight]

Wow...

I need to stop using that move to punish predicted rolls.

I guess I'll just short-hop, if I'm right, bair, if I'm wrong, retreating nair. Heck, nair works period.

I never thought I'd say this but if you predict the roll Fsmash (!) is the safer choice.

There really is no "good time" to use that move. Do you need to hit the enemy fast? Up Tilt is the same speed and KOs faster (plus KOs straight up) and jab has the same range and is 10 frames faster, while causing more damage. There are much better options for predicted rolls as well, as you can imagine. The only thing good about that move is the sound Ike makes when he uses it.

 

[FSLink]

Hey I have a question regarding one of the codes in the codeset:


WiFi Training Room Music
* 0410FE04 386327C3

Anybody know how to change this to play a different song? Is there a list I can use? I thought I found a list, but either none of the values on the list match what I see in this code, or I'm not reading the code properly. Thanks in advance!

Just change the "27C3" to another Music value

 

[Linkshot]

I don't mean in the Falcon matchup. I mean in any matchup.

Is there a bad matchup Ike has that requires him to hit low and hard in front of him in order to make it more even? If not, dSmash stays the same.

 

[YagamiLight]

I don't mean in the Falcon matchup. I mean in any matchup.

Is there a bad matchup Ike has that requires him to hit low and hard in front of him in order to make it more even? If not, dSmash stays the same.

Would it astonish you if I were to say "yes"?

Olimar and Meta Knight are really poor match-ups for Ike in VBrawl (Olimar probably being 70-30 and MK probably being 65-35). Meta Knight was improved a bit with Ike's now impressive recovery and MK's kill moves being weaker. Olimar, however, is now largely the same except for a few minor details. Bair is too high up to hit a grounded Olimar while rising and the same applies to MK IIRC. Having a fast option that would send them at about an 80 degree angle at decent power would make the Olimar match manageable now and make Meta Knight very close to even, if not so.

As of now the Dsmash data looks something like this:

Hits on frame 13, does 13 damage. Hits again on frame 30something for 16% and better knockback (you're never hitting with this part) and it ends on frame 70something.

If this doesn't scream "terrible!" to you then nothing will.

All it would require would be a few changes:

+1 damage to first hit, +1 damage to second hit
No additional knockback besides that received from the extra damage.
Make first hit frame be frame 7 (1-5 are just too fast, frame 6 is still fast. Frame 7 is the same as Bair and his grab).

I'm not sure what you'd do to the ending lag but I guess you can make the move as a whole a bit fast, though don't make it spammably fast.

 

[Linkshot]

Does it extend further than uTilt? Is it faster than dTilt?

 

[YagamiLight]

Does it extend further than uTilt? Is it faster than dTilt?

I think it extends further than uTilt by a little bit and it shieldpokes too. And yes, dTilt is pretty slow at frame 16.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I never thought I'd say this but if you predict the roll Fsmash (!) is the safer choice.

There really is no "good time" to use that move. Do you need to hit the enemy fast? Up Tilt is the same speed and KOs faster (plus KOs straight up) and jab has the same range and is 10 frames faster, while causing more damage. There are much better options for predicted rolls as well, as you can imagine. The only thing good about that move is the sound Ike makes when he uses it.

The reason why I used it was because it covers more options, so in case I'm wrong, there's a better chance I'm covered. But yea, there are better options, and if I checked the Ike boards more I would know that.

I like nair here I guess. Turn-around uptilt for more risk, but better killing.

I don't mean in the Falcon matchup. I mean in any matchup.

Is there a bad matchup Ike has that requires him to hit low and hard in front of him in order to make it more even? If not, dSmash stays the same.

Olimar, nuff said.


Don't you dare say dtilt, it's terribad as an on-stage move. It's a great spike though.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Just a suggestion, Marth's Back Throw should have a buff. It only does 4% and has like no knockback, one of these should change. It's completely useless now since Down Throw outclasses it in damage and knockback, and sends opponents in the same direction.

Just something to think about.

 

[Linkshot]

bThrow sets up different tippers.

Back to Ike. Then I think it should be buffed. Base Knockback by 5 and damage +2 for the first hit only?

 

[YagamiLight]

Just a suggestion, Marth's Back Throw should have a buff. It only does 4% and has like no knockback, one of these should change. It's completely useless now since Down Throw outclasses it in damage and knockback, and sends opponents in the same direction.

Just something to think about.

They can't alter most throws, sadly.

To give Marth some sort of tiny buff they should probably give his Dash Attack and Dair +1 damage or something.

EDIT:

Back to Ike. Then I think it should be buffed. Base Knockback by 5 and damage +2 for the first hit only?

It needs to hit fast enough so that Olimar just can't block it on reaction to the move. As such it'll need to be the slowest option that's below frame 8 (tourney class reaction time). Frame 7 seems like it fits the bill. It doesn't need to be +2 stronger with +5 more base knockback. Just give it one more damage to make it a respectable move that puts the small annoyances where Ike wants them.

 

[Linkshot]

Remember that changing timing is last-resort. If there's a way to make it potent enough without changing timing, that gets tested first.

 

[YagamiLight]

I realize that timings should be modified as a last resort but in order to change Ike to make him viable against Olimar you either do this, or you give him a powerful grab game or you increase the damage on all of his moves enough to cause significant shield tear and pushback.

The last two are going to tip a lot of match-ups, speeding up and slightly powering up Dsmash is simply going to make Ike have a tool against ground based short characters that can easily punish his other moves.

i.e. Olimar

 

[Renegade TX2000]

no... make dsmash stronger. same slowness

 

[adumbrodeus]

no... make dsmash stronger. same slowness

Then he'll still shield it on reaction. Unless it's like Falcon punch or something, it won't make a difference. Remember, against Olimar shield pushback won't do much unless it's A LOT.

 

[Linkshot]

You could charge it up as a mindgame so they fail the perfect shield, and then shield pressure further until you can shieldpoke.