Balanced Brawl Public Preview *GENESIS UPDATE*

[§leepy God]

Yes; however, since there are a few tourneys that do not use Timer items, I think we are safe on that particular issue.

♪ Ah true, since Timers are Risk/Reward items they are ban because of that, well most game breaker items and risk/rewards are bad in competitive play. I guess you got me there. Also nice job on this you, Amazing Ampharos and the rest of the cast that help or I think helped. ^_^; †

 

[adumbrodeus]

Yes; however, since there are a few tourneys that do not use Timer items, I think we are safe on that particular issue.

Lol

All joking aside, we might wanna consider how the changes affect ISP, it may not be a particularly common tournament format, but it's there.

 

[Big O]

I don't think there are moves that trip that do enough knockback to cause tumble. As it stands now there are several characters that can wall lock with tilts and some could probably set them up with a grab like Marth and Ike. DK could use his Cargo Dthrow to set one up as well but it doesn't work past about 60% (at that % they will go into tumble and can tech the Dtoss). DK's Dtilt lock doesn't work until they have about 30% before the first Dtilt. You can also SDI out of his tilt lock if you are good at it so I see no reason to take it out.

I played around with Ganon more and I think he still needs some work. Against the characters he wasn't so bad against I feel with the changes made he can go even with them. Against his worst match-ups I think he still gets beaten pretty badly. I like the changes made to him so far and they were how I would have gone about balancing him (fixing his broken moves and keeping true to his unique playstyle with his other buffs). His up b needs the fix mentioned below.

Originally Posted by MK26 View Post
We fixed that by applying hit effect value 0F to the move. You should do the same to the swallow portion of Kirby's neutral-b, and there was one other move as well, but i cant remeber which one it was... :/

His down b is still unsafe on hit at low damage. Against his three worst match-ups now that you took care of some things like D3's chain grab and Shiek's tilt lock this is a big problem. Marth and MK can punish Ganon for landing a down b until about 30% when used close and about 15% while medium ranged. Samus however can punish Ganon for landing one with her Zair until about 50% close and 30% medium range. It needs more base knockback so that they can't punish him for using it. It currently kills Mario at 140% w/o DI so it isn't too strong for a knockback buff. Some more damage would be nice too.

Speaking of Samus I think now she is an even worse match-up for Ganon now. She got a lot of damage building and knockback buffs. One thing Ganon had going for him was that she couldn't really outright KO him so if the Ganon was careful he would live a while (if he can avoid getting gimped too). The changes made to Ganon are helpful but her buffs outpace Ganon's buffs in that match-up. The new Dtilt is good but Samus is also one of the few that can't be Dtilted from a choke. The new charge shot can punish Ganon so hard now if he somehow manages to recover since he has no way to get rid of his RCO lag that isn't punishable. I am still thinking about how Ganon should change to cope with this match-up without making Ganon way too good vs other characters. For now I am stumped though.

Against MK his Dtilt no longer breaks through the tornado since it only does 9 damage now. It needs to do at least 10 damage to outprioritize the tornado.

Some Ganon mains seem to not like the new Dtilt as much as the old one (I love the new one more than the old one) so maybe there can be some kind of compromise. I remember the Dtilt had a sweetspot at the tip and if they have seperate hitboxes maybe you can make it so that the sweetspot hits like the old Dtilt. It would be a win-win because at that range Ganon can't really followup on the trip anyway.

I think a lot of people underestimate the aerial down b buff. Especially since it can be set up using footstools. punishing air dodges into landing by footsool to down b is a whole new world of hurt.

Ganon's Dsmash should be the next thing that is buffed. It is about as strong as his jab and it doesn't always land both hits. It needs a knockback buff, the angle on the second hit should be horizontal, and the first hit needs some tweaks to make it link better. A little less knock back on the first hit with a more downwards angle would probably make it link better.

Ganon needs a faster jab but I understand you feel frame speed should be tweaked as a last resort. I think that it would take a lot more buffs to get around his bad match-ups without tweaking some frame speeds or hitbox sizes (grab range or quake hitbox since it is about the same as his grab range).

 

[Rouenne]

I assume that Link's DTilt now rarely ever spikes right?

 

[Thinkaman]

Wow... before I reply to you guy's posts... I just want to saw that my attempt to hack a fix for Ike's chaingrabs was a hilariously spectacular failure. I really should make a video of this...

THIS SUMMER

Ike presents...

Chaingrabbing on Ice

Coming to every stage, ever. Unavoidable and inescapable. Due for release: Never.

 

[Delta Z]

I'm a little worried about Kirby. I mean, he's barely A Tier in vBrawl. As of right now, he has no changes. Kirby isn't too bad against the three characters that got an overall nerf (he's around 40-60 on all three). His worst matchups, IC's and Marth, also weren't affected. Removing almost all of the chaingrabs and infinites does nothing to the matchups, as Marth doesn't rely on grabs, and you haven't figured out how to remove the ICs' infinite yet. And I don't see how the increased stage variability halps him to much, as he has a lot of good stages already in vBrawl.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

i dont think that this project should account for ISP, what balances regular brawl may inbalance ISP, and vice versa

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm a little worried about Kirby. I mean, he's barely A Tier in vBrawl. As of right now, he has no changes. Kirby isn't too bad against the three characters that got an overall nerf (he's around 40-60 on all three). His worst matchups, IC's and Marth, also weren't affected. Removing almost all of the chaingrabs and infinites does nothing to the matchups, as Marth doesn't rely on grabs, and you haven't figured out how to remove the ICs' infinite yet. And I don't see how the increased stage variability halps him to much, as he has a lot of good stages already in vBrawl.

I consider Kirby negatively impacted by most changes, more than many characters. I agree with your impressions of stages. Time and experience from players like you will let us know exactly where Kirby stands.

In a minute I will be collecting some hitbox data to round out Kirby's options under consideration.

...after I finish being amused by the amazing ice-skating-chain-grabbing Ike...

 

[ffdgh]

lol since his down throw is a pummel...i think, can u increase the damege output of it
buff back ait
buff u air
increase damage on dash attack
increase knockback on u air?


idk random ideas...need a kirby pro for rel info

 

[Steeler]

lol does ike slide into you after fthrow or what?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Wow... before I reply to you guy's posts... I just want to saw that my attempt to hack a fix for Ike's chaingrabs was a hilariously spectacular failure. I really should make a video of this...

THIS SUMMER

Ike presents...

Chaingrabbing on Ice

Coming to every stage, ever. Unavoidable and inescapable. Due for release: Never.

Can I borrow your codeset? This I have to see.

 

[ffdgh]

youtube it....i wanna see it in action XD

 

[Eldiran]

Chaingrabbing on Ice sounds awesome(ly terrible). I want to see it.

Also, this

Some Ganon mains seem to not like the new Dtilt as much as the old one (I love the new one more than the old one) so maybe there can be some kind of compromise. I remember the Dtilt had a sweetspot at the tip and if they have seperate hitboxes maybe you can make it so that the sweetspot hits like the old Dtilt. It would be a win-win because at that range Ganon can't really followup on the trip anyway.

sounds like a compromise I endorse. (Unless it can be wholly changed back to its original state. I muchly dislike the change in playstyle required by it.) As someone who is probably slightly worse than the worst of the competitive players, I know my endorsement isn't very meaningful, but I thought I'd add my voice to the choir regardless.

 

[Thinkaman]

Chaingrabbing on Ice is sadly dead; I've moved on and continued working on hitbox data for more practical purposes.

 

[hotgarbage]

Ooooook. Here are the last of the Balanced Brawl demonstrational videos:

Diddy Kong and King Dedede: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MOnZGsnXDc
Bowser, Sonic, and Big Blue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K_NrEbgFvA
Captain Falcon and Metaknight: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRHdxatkl4w
Pokemon Trainer and Jigglypuff: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVkNnvl0wjo
Lucas: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYMrldUu24I
Ike, more Sonic, and new water mechanics: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yNK8QKyo5s

 

[MysticKenji]

I'll go ahead and drop my vids in here too.

 

[Lixivium]

I consider Kirby negatively impacted by most changes, more than many characters. I agree with your impressions of stages. Time and experience from players like you will let us know exactly where Kirby stands.

In a minute I will be collecting some hitbox data to round out Kirby's options under consideration.

...after I finish being amused by the amazing ice-skating-chain-grabbing Ike...

Make U-throw or B-throw actually kill
Give D-throw set knockback or make it tech chase-able. Nerf the damage from it if you must

 

[Thinkaman]

Cain't change throws, lixi. Only hitboxes.

 

[xEvann]

Looks lame.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Chaingrabbing on Ice is sadly dead; I've moved on and continued working on hitbox data for more practical purposes.

Awww, could you at least tell me what code you used?

 

[ffdgh]

Looks lame.

TIME 4 RANDOM tips

ignorance is bliss
if u don't see this as interesting, the don't post a pointless post
go do something more productive then
don't knock it until you try it

thx for your time

 

[Deleted member]

tinkaman, are you actually able to make codes or can you only collect data?

 

[Rouenne]

You should give Link's DTilt a bigger spike hitbox I mean it was one of his ace moves in Brawl+ and since Dtilting a mid air foe is not easy it wasn't cheap

 

[Thinkaman]

tinkaman, are you actually able to make codes or can you only collect data?

Hmmm? My understanding of the instruction set is somewhat poor, so I don't have much experience in it; you certainly won't find any cheat codes published by me out there. However, I am a computer science student, so I'm overall comfortable with the execution and structure. I've had little need to change stuff so far, being busy fiddling with hitboxes.

 

[NintenJoe]

You should give Link's DTilt a bigger spike hitbox I mean it was one of his ace moves in Brawl+ and since Dtilting a mid air foe is not easy it wasn't cheap

Link is good enough as it is. His Dtilt spike is virtually useless with the auto-sweet spot ledges, so it really won't make a big difference.

 

[Lixivium]

Cain't change throws, lixi. Only hitboxes.

Increase knockback on Up-Smash and/or D-Smash
Shorten cooldown or move up IASA frames on his jab/F-tilt

Kirby's F-smash is so good that I don't know you could make any of his other moves more useful without changing timing.

 

[ffdgh]

imo t link is good the way he is
lol i find it funny that jigglys side is naturally stronger thans kirbys
d smash is decent and up smash is good 4 a buff.
hmm what would it be like if u turn t link d smash into a horizontal killer instead of a vertical one?

 

[Jigglymaster]

Jigglypuff should have a faster spot dodge. It would increase her aerial mobility even more and she'd be able to dodge more too, making it able for her to fight characters like MK, Kirby, and Wario in the air better.

 

[Rouenne]

Link is good enough as it is. His Dtilt spike is virtually useless with the auto-sweet spot ledges, so it really won't make a big difference.

Umm what are auto sweet spot ledges?

 

[ffdgh]

what is gimping?

but srsly, it when a character auto grabs a ledge from a certain distance.

 

[YagamiLight]

Jigglypuff should have a faster spot dodge. It would increase her aerial mobility even more and she'd be able to dodge more too, making it able for her to fight characters like MK, Kirby, and Wario in the air better.

See colored text.

Anyways I don't think Jigglypuff needs to be able to fight in the air better. That's plenty good already. I'd personally give a better airdodge to Charizard who (despite being a flying pokemon..) suffers badly from air juggles and has trouble using his aerials on stage.

 

[Thinkaman]

His down b is still unsafe on hit at low damage. Against his three worst match-ups now that you took care of some things like D3's chain grab and Shiek's tilt lock this is a big problem. Marth and MK can punish Ganon for landing a down b until about 30% when used close and about 15% while medium ranged. Samus however can punish Ganon for landing one with her Zair until about 50% close and 30% medium range. It needs more base knockback so that they can't punish him for using it. It currently kills Mario at 140% w/o DI so it isn't too strong for a knockback buff. Some more damage would be nice too.

I will address this with a bit more base knockback, maybe damage. We'll see.

Speaking of Samus I think now she is an even worse match-up for Ganon now. She got a lot of damage building and knockback buffs. One thing Ganon had going for him was that she couldn't really outright KO him so if the Ganon was careful he would live a while (if he can avoid getting gimped too). The changes made to Ganon are helpful but her buffs outpace Ganon's buffs in that match-up. The new Dtilt is good but Samus is also one of the few that can't be Dtilted from a choke. The new charge shot can punish Ganon so hard now if he somehow manages to recover since he has no way to get rid of his RCO lag that isn't punishable. I am still thinking about how Ganon should change to cope with this match-up without making Ganon way too good vs other characters. For now I am stumped though.

I'm starting to stray away from my previous position of keeping RCO lag in. I don't want to remove it, but it's a thorn in many problem matchups.

One silly problem is that ganon cannot f-tilt the fully charged shot anymore. More damage on f-tilt? Maybe Wiz-kick too?

Against MK his Dtilt no longer breaks through the tornado since it only does 9 damage now. It needs to do at least 10 damage to outprioritize the tornado.

Thanks, this will be fixed.

Some Ganon mains seem to not like the new Dtilt as much as the old one (I love the new one more than the old one) so maybe there can be some kind of compromise. I remember the Dtilt had a sweetspot at the tip and if they have seperate hitboxes maybe you can make it so that the sweetspot hits like the old Dtilt. It would be a win-win because at that range Ganon can't really followup on the trip anyway.

D-tilt is three hitboxes, and the third one is the vast majority of it's size... ergo, both the part used to hit out of side-b, and the tip.

I think a lot of people underestimate the aerial down b buff. Especially since it can be set up using footstools. punishing air dodges into landing by footsool to down b is a whole new world of hurt.

It's also HUUUGE as an ender for tech-chase chains. It's very practical to get too, I'm not being unrealistic. I do it all the time.

Ganon's Dsmash should be the next thing that is buffed. It is about as strong as his jab and it doesn't always land both hits. It needs a knockback buff, the angle on the second hit should be horizontal, and the first hit needs some tweaks to make it link better. A little less knock back on the first hit with a more downwards angle would probably make it link better.

This was definitely being considered, especially to help the Olimar matchup.

Ganon needs a faster jab but I understand you feel frame speed should be tweaked as a last resort. I think that it would take a lot more buffs to get around his bad match-ups without tweaking some frame speeds or hitbox sizes (grab range or quake hitbox since it is about the same as his grab range).

I'm still not at all convinced that Ganon can't have balanced matchups without faster moves. (Triple negative?) In all Ganon matches I play, and the ones I see, the problem isn't that Ganon is not able to hit opponents near him; the issue is that Ganon isn't doing enough when he gets in to make up for the trouble it took him to get there. Ganon always DOES eventually get in, but he is slow at doing it.

I think buffing damage on jab will round out his matchups some, for those where jab is the only option out of side-b.

Great post, BTW. Sorry I'm rushing about doing a dozen things at once.

 

[Ken Neth]

Where you automatically sweetspot the ledge when you do your up-b. So since most characters' up-b's will autosweet spot they'll never go high enough the ledge to get hit with a dtilt spike anyways. That's why there's no real point to changing the properties of his dtilt spike.

 

[Jigglymaster]

See colored text.

Anyways I don't think Jigglypuff needs to be able to fight in the air better. That's plenty good already. I'd personally give a better airdodge to Charizard who (despite being a flying pokemon..) suffers badly from air juggles and has trouble using his aerials on stage.

None the less, Jigglypuff is still low tier, increasing her aerial mobility would make her better regardless if its good already. It should be the BEST. Not to mention it would help her ground game as well which is something she also desperately needs.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Where you automatically sweetspot the ledge when you do your up-b. So since most characters' up-b's will autosweet spot they'll never go high enough the ledge to get hit with a dtilt spike anyways. That's why there's no real point to changing the properties of his dtilt spike.

It's either intended to be used well above (depending on where you hit, it has a slight side angle) or below/far out as a suicide spike.

It works.

None the less, Jigglypuff is still low tier, increasing her aerial mobility would make her better regardless if its good already. It should be the BEST. Not to mention it would help her ground game as well which is something she also desperately needs.

We already have one Wario....

 

[Thinkaman]

Jigglypuff should have a faster spot dodge. It would increase her aerial mobility even more and she'd be able to dodge more too, making it able for her to fight characters like MK, Kirby, and Wario in the air better.

None the less, Jigglypuff is still low tier, increasing her aerial mobility would make her better regardless if its good already. It should be the BEST. Not to mention it would help her ground game as well which is something she also desperately needs.

We tried an air dodge buff. It literally helped none.

Jigglypuff is quite good now; have you played it?

 

[Jigglymaster]

We tried an air dodge buff. It literally helped none.

Jigglypuff is quite good now; have you played it?

No, but I'm going to try it soon. This is the Brawl+ I was hoping Brawl+ would turn out to be.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

mk's neutral A should be better to make up for his tornado... i mean i F"ing hate mk but i atleast respect him lulz i don't want mk fans to be left out. =/ btw i'm going to be testing this out soon thinkaman so i'll throw out some results when i "can".

 

[Anomilus]

I played Jigglypuff for a bit. The changes did feel nice, and easier gimping is a definite plus. I need to play more though, and it's difficult finding anybody else outside of this one topic who's interested in this. There was GameFAQs, but the topics there were deleted (likely for advertising), and apparently nobody else is talking about it anymore. =(

 

[Swordplay]

Now that I've played the game, and you guys are talking about my main Link so much I'll drop a note....

F-tilt: knockback

This was huge and awesome buff, The wide large encompassing hitbox makes it really sweet. It reminds me a little of Ikes F smash but because its a tilt, you can do amazing movement things with it.

Fsmash

Important and Rapetastic

Spin attack

Finally, a GTFO move .Much needed and awesome.

Fair

I enjoy this buff more than I thought I would. This move is **** for hitting people on platforms. The 1st hit knocks them off and the 2nd hit OWNS them.

Boomerang

I appreciate this. I use it a lot and it helps build damage nicely....really want to you to respond to my quote on page 46 so I'll bring it up again.

Unfortunately the primary use of the boomerang was to Knock down and often set up for Locks, With those gone now you just force a get up and F-smash......Also, the boomerang doesn't really Knock people down at a certain distance because the move slows down so the situation above won't happen as much as you like..........................................................

A adjustment to do that to put people in this scenario more would have been really nice and complemented your arrow buff but........ it probably won't happen since the Knockdown is dependent on the speed of the boomerang I believe according to Havok (Susa) and I know speeding up things is not something BB will do.......(though I do hope for a response on this paragraph, I don't exactly know where Think and AA drew the line so I may be wrong) Please respond AA/Thinkaman I am curious

D-tilt

Thanks but.........This move is still never used it still has extremly short range and is still still very slow. I still never use it.


Finally the arrows:

In VB, I was known as a great spammer of projectiles to much of the Link community. SO.....I'll classify them as this.....Gay....( We'll there a great buff but read on to why I called the gay )


I rarely ever hit opponents as a gimp tool (like you made them out to be) as people just recover out of their trajectory which is limited by nature.
I've come to conclude that arrows are not for gimping but rather knocking people offstage.


Arrows often make my opponent trip. I actually don't like this. Link still has a movement problem so tripping from affair leads into long range tech chases, there is nothing to do but charge the arrow. Thus, I often find that arrow lead into more arrows. (which I dislike because I think its lame). I guess I just wish that arrows complemented his projectile game more......

The 3 only time I am ever finding arrows to help Link significantly is after the boomerang which knocks opponents down to set up for arrow tech chases. The other is reversing arrows and reverse arrow canceling. I may see "some" potential in Bair to reverse arrow cancel now. The last is they are good to use once in a while as a chase tool or to force a mid ranged game play.


In the end though Spamming Links arrows gets you punished due to the lag they have......

( I will admit I really like the arrow buff, I just don't like that it trips you. Thats why I think its gay.)

Right now, I find myself using projectiles at 40% bombs, 35% Boomerang and 25% arrows.


I think the main reason I dislike Links arrows is because I don't find many opportunities to use them but when I DO use them. they seem overpowered







Now further......Link doesn't need a buff. Its just that if you think that, you suck with him.

Your probably not using his 10 Bomb AT's and 5 movement AT's and 5 misc. and situational AT's that will make you crap your pants................put 3 hours a day Into learning his AT's because you never bothered before because he sucked and you will find he is pretty solid now.