Balanced Brawl Public Preview *GENESIS UPDATE*

[Rykoshet]

For the record guys, if you really want onett and corneria and what not to be actually viable, you're going to need to change the angle or power or some crap of ike's fthrow. Make it send downwards slightly so it can be DI'd down and teched or what not. I can set that thing up from practically anywhere since both f and bthrow set up the wall infinite and I definitely took Pierce from 0-death with it on onett thanks to the car and a counter doing 72 damage combined in 10 frames....

Ike's fthrow needs to be techable.

 

[Thinkaman]

Guys, please keep in mind... we can't chagne throws.

 

[stingers]

But...you did

 

[Rykoshet]

Guys, please keep in mind... we can't chagne throws.

Then expect corneria, kingdom and onett to stay banned, just saying. Ike straight up dominates anyone who would dare get close to a wall and those stages sort of thrive on those existing. I can snatch you from any spot on the floor in onett and shove you into a wall infinite.

 

[Thinkaman]

But...you did

Witchcraft. Ike (and most characters) are immune to witchcraft.

 

[stingers]

Explain. I'm suddenly interested

 

[Thinkaman]

DDD and Pikachu's d-throw have a hitbox for hitting third parties. I made that hitbox cape the victim out of the grab. (Like, Mario cape.) I made it do so with knockback and angle similar to the original throw.

Falco's throw is actually a projectile (the lasers), easily modifiable. (Same hitbox on all lasers for all throws though.)

 

[stingers]

So you got lucky Pikachu and DDD were different?

 

[Tommy_G]

DDD and Pikachu's d-throw have a hitbox for hitting third parties. I made that hitbox cape the victim out of the grab. (Like, Mario cape.) I made it do so with knockback and angle similar to the original throw.

Falco's throw is actually a projectile (the lasers), easily modifiable. (Same hitbox on all lasers for all throws though.)

Lmao, even Falco's throw is a projectile.

 

[Thinkaman]

So you got lucky Pikachu and DDD were different?

Yep. Reall lucky. A few other throws do have hitboxes like this though. Jigg's f-throw is one, off the top of my head.

 

[Chaco]

I'm pretty sure Yoshi has the best survivability now. All my stocks were 210+/=%.

 

[Rykoshet]

Except in blatantly obvious cases (fox, ike, people with killshots that dont give you time to egg brake) yeah yoshi's pretty much king of survivability.

 

[JOE!]

Yep. Reall lucky. A few other throws do have hitboxes like this though. Jigg's f-throw is one, off the top of my head.

Bowser uthrow....

dunno what you could do with it, but just tossing it out that its a multi-hitter that can hit 3rd parties

 

[Ussi]

Ike's throws hit third parties too. As Ike uses his throws to separate/hit the other ICs

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

All throws hit 3rd parties.

 

[zxeon]

I don't see how any of this fixes the fact that without hitstun Metaknight is the ultimate character. By weakening his moves you've actually hurt the game since now it will take a lot longer for MK to camp out a kill.

 

[xDD-Master]

A question:

What are all the effects you can add to an attack ??? (Flower, Dark Aura, Fire, Electricity, Poison...)

A list would be cool to talk about characters in the future.


Some thoughts:
Ivy - Flower
Ganon - More Dark Aura (Just for the coolness :D)
Pikachu - More Electricity
Bowser - More Fire
White Pikmin - Poison Effect on more Attacks

etc etc.

 

[GwJ]

Texture Hacks please! Good job and thank you for all the hard work!

Just add the File Replacement V2.1 to the code.

 

[Ussi]

For Pikachu, i remember reading switching fsmash sweetspot. That sounds soo good i so want that to happen =) I always hit with the tip.

Also, Pikachu with more electricity will be worse for dealing with Olimar and his stupid yellow pikmin.


More fire can't be added so easily, as Ivysaur takes 10% extra KB so its risky to add fire to moves.

Ganon with more darkness is always cool.

I don't think we need to make Olimar any better than he is..


Also someone said Ike's new mobility can help against Olimar, Olimar's pikmin activate QD making it pointless really. Only way to make it better against Olimar is to set it that QD goes through people/things

 

[Thinkaman]

All throws hit 3rd parties.

This isn't quite true. Most throws don't have their own hitboxes (ICs is a good example); however, when an enemy is sent tumbling, it does create two hitboxes specific to that enemy characters that can hit third parties. This can't be used to change throws, since it is an attack made by the victim, not the thrower.

I don't see how any of this fixes the fact that without hitstun Metaknight is the ultimate character. By weakening his moves you've actually hurt the game since now it will take a lot longer for MK to camp out a kill.

You would be right if Meta Knight's problem was that we won without getting hit. However, *none* of MK's matchups allow him to really shut out the opponent completely. All his matchups benefit from MK having to work harder to get kills.

I suggest you try the game before making assumptions like this; you can find many posts in this topic about how "right" Meta Knight feels.

 

[Anomilus]

Any comments at all regarding adding a Flower to Ivysaur's DAir as suggested in one of my older posts?

So you don't have to search, I suggested possibly changing your original buff to DAir so the move actually does less initial damage and knockback, but adds the flower. Perhaps only -1 damage from its original output? I wouldn't want the combined damage and flower damage to merely equalize with its original damage output. This would give even more incentive to try and use the move than just having more damage and knockback (I should know; I did land the move in my playtests, but soon forgot all about it again...)

 

[hotgarbage]

Since ZSS's jab has come up so much.....

Key:

HB#- stands for "Hitbox #. Some jabs have multiple hitboxes that launch foe's differently. Bowser's first jab, for instance, has 3 hitboxes. One very close to him, one in the middle, and one at the tip of his attack. The hitboxes are numbered from closest to the character using the jab to furthest away, so the hitbox that is closest to Bowser would be labeled "HB1"

Color coding
Each hitbox will have a color coding telling what kind of trajectory it has:
lime- Upwards launch trajectory.
yellow- Low angle launch trajectory
red- Grounded trajectory

Upwards launch trajectory specifics:
no action - the advantage you'll have if your opponent performs no aerial actions, thus landing on the ground with a hard landing.
aerial action - the advantage you'll have if your opponent performs an aerial action.
air time - how many frames your opponent is in the air able to perform an aerial aciton.




Zero Suit Samus Jab adv against Mario

First Jab
HB1:
- no action: -2
- aerial action: -7
- air time: 1 frame

Second Jab
HB1: -9

Second Jab after First Jab: -5

Her jab..... is bad . I have yet to see this abused, but it should actually be unsafe on hit against many characters.

-If ZSS goes through with the jab combo against someone on the ground with a reasonable fall speed the third hit will be shielded and grabbed.
-If she connects with the first two jab hits and attempts to roll away or something... she should still be grabbed/jabbed.
-If she tries to hit with her first jab only she should be jabbed (if the character has a decently fast jab) if she does anything but shield. That's an option at least though.

To put this in a more concrete light: If I am Mario fighting ZSS and I mash A when she connects with her first jab and mash grab when she hits with her second jab I should damage her every single time. Well, not every single time. As I said before she can shield after her first jab... but that's her only mixup option against this.

Not that I'm endorsing changing her jab though, I'm just laying out how bad it is. This has yet to be truly abused in the tourney scene (I think?) so eh.





EDIT: oh yeah. For those interested here are some new demonstrational replays that AmazingAmpharos wanted uploaded:

Luigi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWrXx7FglEc
Yoshi and grab releases: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMFTVFfTw8o
Ganondorf: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mH3TdQ8QwI0
Link and Shiek: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97RhYv8rMZY
Samus and ZSS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DA3tnkb53E
Falco and Pikachu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te0H9MEg3ak


more to come!

 

[zxeon]

You would be right if Meta Knight's problem was that we won without getting hit. However, *none* of MK's matchups allow him to really shut out the opponent completely. All his matchups benefit from MK having to work harder to get kills.

I suggest you try the game before making assumptions like this; you can find many posts in this topic about how "right" Meta Knight feels.

You forgot about MK's best team mate the ledge and why don't you show me some actual tournament results before you start sounding so sure of yourself.

It's really a matter of how shameless you are when playing MK. You can spam Mach Tornado all day and go for the gimp with your awesome ledge snap planking skilz.

 

[Epic Kovumon]

Although I kinda hate to mention this, but DK can still Cargo-dthrow against a wall. Is it not possible to remove that?

Dtilting against walls still work, too.

 

[Thinkaman]

You forgot about MK's best team mate the ledge and why don't you show me some actual tournament results before you start sounding so sure of yourself.

It's really a matter of how shameless you are when playing MK. You can spam Mach Tornado all day and go for the gimp with your awesome ledge snap planking skilz.

No one has forgot about the ledge, if you had read the opening post you would have seen that it is still a consideration.

There have been several hundred hours of testing so far, including feedback from many very high level players and communities. Do you understand how coming in here, without reading or testing anything, and decrying the competence of everyone involved could be considered rude?

Although I kinda hate to mention this, but DK can still Cargo-dthrow against a wall. Is it not possible to remove that?

Dtilting against walls still work, too.

I'll look at this, thanks.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Cargo throw against walls is techable. Play better. And dtilting against a wall is situational but should be removed.

 

[zxeon]

You'll probably end up taking out the auto-snap ledges but that's about as Barwl as no hitstun. The whole game is broken not just character balance.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Ignore the troll. Anyway, is there any chance of the tether grab character having a more rewarding grab game? As to balance their risk. Like for example, Zero suit actually dealing more damage with her throws and TL doing like 9/10 with his throws. Just something to look at.

 

[Epic Kovumon]

Play better.

I mentioned that because I was the one who did it, and by cargo-dthrow I mean this type:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtm1Tk9eY14

Although this is vBrawl, it still works in BBrawl.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Oh, that one. Yeah, wall infinites need to go.

 

[Thinkaman]

Ignore the troll. Anyway, is there any chance of the tether grab character having a more rewarding grab game? As to balance their risk. Like for example, Zero suit actually dealing more damage with her throws and TL doing like 9/10 with his throws. Just something to look at.

First, keep in mind we aren't homogenizing characters here.

Second, we can't change throws. I don't mean to single you out, because everyoen keeps saying this, but this has been stated about fifteen to twenty times in the topic so far.

Third, some characters who needed general buffs like Yoshi did get more pummel damage. That is as close as we can get.

I mentioned that because I was the one who did it, and by cargo-dthrow I mean this type:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtm1Tk9eY14

Although this is vBrawl, it still works in BBrawl.

Right; you can't tech a tumble state that isn't there. I doubt the cargo throw can be changed, but we'll look at d-tilt.

What attributes of the d-tilt does DK need to be preserved for sure?

 

[Epic Kovumon]

The tripping, for sure.

 

[ffdgh]

now that we had some serious trial and error for many characters, do u think we're ready to unveil the fixed product later this month?

btw make a list of things on the first page that can/cant be altered XD

 

[Revven]

DK's Dtilt should put into tumble as soon as possible without ruining Dtilt (trip) > Down B and many of his other setups from Dtilt. If you make it tumble too early, it may make Dtilt (trip) > Down B worse to use at higher percents, maybe even nigh impossible. So you really have to be careful with his Dtilt as it is one of his main assets to his game.

I suggest just messing with the KBG, don't touch the BKB unless you have to.

 

[ffdgh]

what next....make down b as strong as venasaur's attack from melee?hmm interesting

 

[timothyung]

Because it seems that it was ignored or missed by you, I will say it again:
Are you guys fixing the triple jump glitch? It's a stupid glitch that needs to be fixed. It's as bad as tripping.

 

[ffdgh]

^ i think not or atlease thinkman or aa see no harm in it staying.......I THINK

 

[Ripple]

I think link still needs a buff to his recovery.

I think that you should put in bomb jump recovery like in melee(aka, being able to hit his own bombs in air). either that or make bombs explode a lot faster. (like 25-50 frames faster)

 

[TLMSheikant]

Nvm then lol. U cant edit throws . And u dont want to use frame speed mod...so I guess not having a way to punish excessive shielding will still be what holds zero suit and TL back...

 

[Thinkaman]

I think link still needs a buff to his recovery.

I think that you should put in bomb jump recovery like in melee(aka, being able to hit his own bombs in air). either that or make bombs explode a lot faster. (like 25-50 frames faster)

First, we have no way of adding bomb jumping.

Also, the Link feedback spread we are getting is interesting. Some want him nerfed, some want him buffed, some think he is fine. Have you got the change to play with it yet Ripple?

Also, any input on DK's d-tilt?

Because it seems that it was ignored or missed by you, I will say it again:
Are you guys fixing the triple jump glitch? It's a stupid glitch that needs to be fixed. It's as bad as tripping.

I wouldn't consider it remotely the same as tripping, because opposite of tripping, you totally control it. You know the lag is going to happen, and you should plan around it. I know I think about it a lot when I play Ganondorf.

However, it *is* under consideration, make no mistake. We just can't go on a witchhunt to blindly throw out everything in the game that some people don't like. We're taking things at a slow, thoughtful pace.

DK's Dtilt should put into tumble as soon as possible without ruining Dtilt (trip) > Down B and many of his other setups from Dtilt. If you make it tumble too early, it may make Dtilt (trip) > Down B worse to use at higher percents, maybe even nigh impossible. So you really have to be careful with his Dtilt as it is one of his main assets to his game.

I suggest just messing with the KBG, don't touch the BKB unless you have to.

I will be tricky, I'll mess with it in an hour or two.

Nvm then lol. U cant edit throws . And u dont want to use frame speed mod...so I guess not having a way to punish excessive shielding will still be what holds zero suit and TL back...

Zero Suit will... *possibly* be getting a d-tilt buff, which is a great move for stabbing shields and setting up her great aerial game. Toon Link already has a great projectile game that pressures opponents just fine, from any angle; we're certainly be considering further changes to Toon Link like any other characters, but I would be surprised if defensive characters are the real problem for him. Hopefully we get good matchup data that gives us an accurate picture.

Zero Suit Samus Jab:

I've been testing an angle buff to jab2, and it does make jab a true combo against all characters.

Frankly, early indications show this being dangerously good, more so than I expected. ZSS automatically becomes one of the best close-range fighters in the game; if the enemy is up close, you just have to hold A and you will always beat them unless they have a frame advantage, and even then it had better be a substantial frame advantage.

The combination of frame 1 jab and an unblockable combo really is potent. ZSS becomes largely indifferent to characters getting close to her since it is trivial to swat them away.

Meanwhile, buffing d-tilt seems to be quite effective too, but in a more interesting way much more in line with her existing game; simply put, setting up an aerial game with d-tilt is quite nice. I'll tweak it some more to investigate further.

I have also investigated paralyzer, including increasing the stun time the tiniest bit to allow a grab. It has potential, but I worry how much it will effect Falco and the other matchups ZSS players seem to struggle with. It may impact other characters much more than them, we will have to see.