A six-pence for the first clever lad to tell me what Zelda's side-b ending state's action id is.
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Balanced Brawl Public Preview *GENESIS UPDATE*
- Thread starter Amazing Ampharos
- Start date
- Status
Nevermind, it's just like Yoshi's.
Thinkaman I've read through some of the previous pages and I'm actually very excited with some of the changes you're considering for zelda. I'd recommend to leave Dtilt completely alone... it has tons of guaranteed followups and leads into many true combos on trip and many more on just the hitstun it dishes out, so it's a high utility move that doesn't need change.
Is there a pal version in the works? I can play it on an american wii, but I don't own this wii, and I'd love to be able to test some things myself. Good luck with this project.
Is there a pal version in the works? I can play it on an american wii, but I don't own this wii, and I'd love to be able to test some things myself. Good luck with this project.
I agree that argument from intent is never preferable, but in this case it is at least worth consideration given the evidence for it.
Ignoring intent and looking at her overall strengths and weaknesses, it still seems that improved boxing isn't a good idea. First, the problematic match-up we are discussing here is Falco. Falco is arguably the best boxer in the entire game. If you buff ZSS's boxing to the point where she can beat out Falco in CQC, the ripple effect would be huge given that ZSS would then be the best boxer in the entire game. Ignoring the fact that this tramples all over core concepts of the Spacies and numerous other characters, we still have to acknowledge that Falco's concept (Camper with top-notch boxing) is borderline broken; why risk changing ZSS into the exact same thing? Her current concept (Camper who can't deal with CQC) is much easier to balance.
What's more, Falco at least suffers from a horribly crippling Up-B recovery. ZSS, on the other hand, has an amazing recovery. (And good killing, damage racking, shield pressure, priority and range, and mobility.)
If you remove her boxing weakness, what weaknesses are left?
Overall, I think looking at trying to overcome Falco's boxing (one of his defining characteristics) is the wrong way to approach the issue. Other options that've been mentioned like buffing aerials or D-Tilt should be considered instead.
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
Oy. So far I've asked all over the place with no results.
I want to try this out (this and Brawl+, both of them). But I can't softmod a Wii. Is it possible to somehow mix this with the data on the brawl disk and burn a new one that just runs BB/B+?
Also, will this work on german Wiis?
I want to try this out (this and Brawl+, both of them). But I can't softmod a Wii. Is it possible to somehow mix this with the data on the brawl disk and burn a new one that just runs BB/B+?
Also, will this work on german Wiis?
Revven
FrankerZ
No, there is no way to get the information onto a disc BECAUSE the information is all on the Wii, it's not on the disc in the same way textures are.
What you are asking is not only extremely illegal, but would require hardmodding your wii. Certainly expect no help to be provided for something like that here.
Zelda mains, I'd love to talk to any of you on IM now-ish.
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
Ah. Didn't know about the illegal part. >.< And I thought I read elsewhere that just about everything from Wii games came on the disk.
Sorry about that. I wasn't sure of the implications.
Sorry about that. I wasn't sure of the implications.
Revven
FrankerZ
The information comes from the disc but, isn't directly editable onto it, the Wii takes what's there and uses almost all of its RAM up on playing the game (which is why it can be edited the way it is). The ISO has no direct spot for the data, it's just on the disc, the Wii reads it and any changes made to it in the Wiis RAM is changed accordingly.
Basically, it's all in the Wiis RAM when you boot the game. So it's softmod or no softmod.
I'm kinda iffy on that. Lucario's approach and set-ups are with his fair. Is it possible to buff just the damage it deals without changing the knockback?
GwJ
Smash Hero
Well, I don't think it's actually been done (Burning BBrawl or Brawl+ as an ISO), but in theory you should be able to, I just don't know how.
MK26
Smash Master
I can imagine Kirby's guides now:
B+: nair can now be used offstage, throws actually true combo, no more crappy fastfall, make sure the new hitlag settings don't mess up your dair timing.
bB: Uhhh, go check out the other guides so you don't get taken by surprise when you get hit with Ganon's new uppercut or some random stuff like that, cuz there's nothing new to see here.
Exactly. Maybe you shoudn't buff ZSS because that will make her too good...for instance, with a few changes made, ZSS could be a hard counter against Kirby. Maybe she will just ending up being hard-countered by some while hard-countering others, even though she has a happy medium where she ends up with matchups that are, on average, neutral.
Also, too many posts go by on this thread...there have probably been two full pages done by the time i post this...
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
First, I mentioned this "ripple"effect a few pages back. The even larger problem is that ZSS' jab wouldn't be enough to make her playable vs. Falco. Ever. So, what do you do to make her good vs. Falco?
Well, you could buff her dair to autocancel, which would give her a vertical option in the air, but potentially make her air game even stronger (which could actually not be that big a deal, since ZSS doesn't really lose to anyone in the air anyway). You could give the tip of her side-b a bigger hitbox, making it slightly outrange Falco's reflector and fsmash, but that would be ridiculous and probably catastrophic in terms of game balance. The answer isn't really easy and might just be that you'd have to leave it as is. I'm not really sure what the right answer is. Are you?
Looticforgothispassword
Smash Ace
I agree with that Zamus isnt supposed to be boxing, she got to have some weakness and if it is close range, then let it be that,
Anyway what I really wanted to say is I personally dislike links buff of the arrows(from what ive heard since I havent seen anything, since I play PAL) since it is really usable as a projectile already by arrowcanceling and a nice tool for edgeguarding if you charge it. Link have basically two reasons he gets gimped and he falls victim for almost every CG in the game. CGs are gone that leaves his horrible recovery which you wont fix which I can understand, but what you could do instead of giving him a buff on something that already is good you can fix what actually dont work as it should.
Link has a spike, its really strong and its quick, but it cant connect, at all, ever. it is in his dtilt and its so rare it hits that every spike hit is material for a link combo vid, no matter how it hitted, this dont mean you should make it super easy to hit with, just make it possible.
Link have a sheild, Im not talking about the bubble sheild, Im talking about the sheild he holds in his hand, the hylian sheild, it blocks all kinds of projectiles, there is problems though, If link stands still he sometimes sways his sword as an idle animation. During this animation links sheilds hitbox disappears and make link vulnearble, its random and makes links standing sheild unreliable. Simply removing this animation OR make the hitbox be there anyway would make it better. Its still not super useful but actually makes it possible to use sometimes.
Toon links uair has better KO power than links, I think it is ridicolous since link is intended to be the more heavy hitting, I dunno if it is a change that is needed but its something that I think is weird, thats all.
ehm thats all I can think of for now, cause links arrows already had a purpous in his spam game, they were in balnce with his bombs and his rang. I dunno how much better theyve gotten but from the comments ive seen it seems to be by a lot.
Anyway what I really wanted to say is I personally dislike links buff of the arrows(from what ive heard since I havent seen anything, since I play PAL) since it is really usable as a projectile already by arrowcanceling and a nice tool for edgeguarding if you charge it. Link have basically two reasons he gets gimped and he falls victim for almost every CG in the game. CGs are gone that leaves his horrible recovery which you wont fix which I can understand, but what you could do instead of giving him a buff on something that already is good you can fix what actually dont work as it should.
Link has a spike, its really strong and its quick, but it cant connect, at all, ever. it is in his dtilt and its so rare it hits that every spike hit is material for a link combo vid, no matter how it hitted, this dont mean you should make it super easy to hit with, just make it possible.
Link have a sheild, Im not talking about the bubble sheild, Im talking about the sheild he holds in his hand, the hylian sheild, it blocks all kinds of projectiles, there is problems though, If link stands still he sometimes sways his sword as an idle animation. During this animation links sheilds hitbox disappears and make link vulnearble, its random and makes links standing sheild unreliable. Simply removing this animation OR make the hitbox be there anyway would make it better. Its still not super useful but actually makes it possible to use sometimes.
Toon links uair has better KO power than links, I think it is ridicolous since link is intended to be the more heavy hitting, I dunno if it is a change that is needed but its something that I think is weird, thats all.
ehm thats all I can think of for now, cause links arrows already had a purpous in his spam game, they were in balnce with his bombs and his rang. I dunno how much better theyve gotten but from the comments ive seen it seems to be by a lot.
Revven
FrankerZ
Paprika Killer just told me on IRC that it would be very very hard to do something like this, and even if you did, it's definitely illegal while what BB and Brawl+ are doing now is perfectly legal.
D
Deleted member
Guest
SMK, I wouldn't go about yelling this hack doesn't violate any law, but yeah it's a tleast a lot MORE legal than disc burning.
basically you would have to add a load command on the disc, as well as the codes. while the codes are easy, writing such a load command is extremely hard. not to mention you would need to put it in a very specific region where it would actually be read.
basically you would have to add a load command on the disc, as well as the codes. while the codes are easy, writing such a load command is extremely hard. not to mention you would need to put it in a very specific region where it would actually be read.
PieDisliker
Smash Lord
...Marth's infinate on Ness and Lucas?
I'm shocked that wasn't removed but it seem you guys really know what you're doing. Is it really that easy to get out of?
I'm shocked that wasn't removed but it seem you guys really know what you're doing. Is it really that easy to get out of?
Probably D-Tilt buff or a D-Air buff. Her crawl is a little weird against Falco's Reflector, IIRC, but I think that you can crawl under it so long as you're moving. If it proves too difficult to get positioning for D-Tilt, then the D-Air buff could be tried. I haven't played her for awhile though, so I'm unfamiliar with her current metagame. Does she have any match-ups that would skew horribly if she had auto-cancel on her D-Air?
Grab release exploits have been removed, including these.
Good news guys, Zelda is looking... actually pretty good. There are good options here.
MysticKenji
Smash Master
They can roll/spotddoge before Marth's grab comes out.
In other news, Zelda being able to sweetspot dairs on the ground? Totally broken. I'm DESTROYING CPUs using only dair. It makes Ganon's thunderstorming look pathetic. There's no way this can ever fit into the game.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
It would skew the Pikachu and MK fights a little off the top of my head. It would benefit the Marth fight. It would make the Kirby fight even worse. Basically, any character that goes head-to-head with her in the air. They all lose, some of them worse than others (ZSS' aerial game is not ever really beaten), but the point is that giving her an extra aerial option would skew the fight against any character with a prominent aerial game, because they are constantly battling her for the ground position (for juggling purposes, which is what she's good at).
Think about it. Suddenly, she has a quick, high priority option that sends her back to the ground and autocancels. No one would realistically beat it, so she'd default to the juggle position OR force a neutral position where she can camp. You could decrease the priority, but then we're back where we started.
I don't think it would actually hurt the game that badly; I am trying to give a balanced perspective, though. The fact is, characters who she is battling for juggling positions she is already winning against. At most, this would shift the game 5 bull**** fantasy ratio points in her favor.
Hmm. The D-Tilt buff is definitely preferable then, since it changes less. I assume the problem is getting past Falco's zoning so you can pop him up for juggling? D-Tilt accomplishes that, so a buff might help; but that might not address the fundamental problem of not being able to overcome laser/reflector zoning.
I suspect the answer to this question is a solid "No", but I'll ask anyway: Is it permissible (or even possible) to adjust ZSS' crouched hurtbox to something like Sheik's so that Reflector passes over her while crouched? Sheik will never get hit by Reflector so long as she is crouching, and it helps her game against Falco immensely. Perhaps something similar could be done for ZSS?
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Curiously, what effect would buffing her dtilt have? I mean, are you going to add more hitstun? Dtilt is already pretty good. Making it hit harder won't make it more useful unless you plan on making it deal like 25% damage. xD (kidding...)
EDIT: BTW, I second Pit... I'll have some feedback for you soon.
EDIT: BTW, I second Pit... I'll have some feedback for you soon.
Dragoomba
Smash Lord
Those are CPUs...
YagamiLight
Smash Champion
As per Ike's counter, giving it a flower seems sort of ...not right. It'd make the move useful but it doesn't seem all that natural. What I wouldn't be against (at all), however, is giving both Aether and Counter the ability to heal Ike for half the damage they cause to the enemy. As it stands both moves are easily quantifiable as high risk / poor reward. Aether places Ike in a very poor position if he misses (which is not all that hard to do considering the move needs 20 frames before it can reach an opponent up high) and Counter is well...to use the example of it being the equivalent of trying to Marth Fsmash an opponent before they get the attack off is not far off.
Adding these simple changes in would, essentially, make both of these moves have their uses. It would allow for both Aether and Counter to be used in proper risk/reward fashions. A healing Counter would also mean that opponents would have to be smart about their projectiles instead of just shooting them at Ike as fast as they could for the fear that he'd heal 5% if he predicts it. Aether would become a solid option after a throw upwards assuming Ike could predict the opponent's reaction.
This seriously sounds like a good idea in my head, does anyone see anything wrong with it? The moves wouldn't become overpowered at all, seeing as how Counter is still a frame 10 move (and has all it's flaws) and Aether has an even bigger start up time than that. They'd simply have the ability to make Ike more versatile, which is what the goal of any balance project should be.
On a side note, you'd probably have to give a blue fire effect to the moves so that people don't wonder why only those two moves heal. But I'm not against those two moves having cool effects, haha.
Adding these simple changes in would, essentially, make both of these moves have their uses. It would allow for both Aether and Counter to be used in proper risk/reward fashions. A healing Counter would also mean that opponents would have to be smart about their projectiles instead of just shooting them at Ike as fast as they could for the fear that he'd heal 5% if he predicts it. Aether would become a solid option after a throw upwards assuming Ike could predict the opponent's reaction.
This seriously sounds like a good idea in my head, does anyone see anything wrong with it? The moves wouldn't become overpowered at all, seeing as how Counter is still a frame 10 move (and has all it's flaws) and Aether has an even bigger start up time than that. They'd simply have the ability to make Ike more versatile, which is what the goal of any balance project should be.
On a side note, you'd probably have to give a blue fire effect to the moves so that people don't wonder why only those two moves heal. But I'm not against those two moves having cool effects, haha.
Anomilus
Smash Lord
Agreed'd
You can add flower effects to character attacks!?!?
Have you guys considering giving that effect to one of Ivysaur's moves? Ivy can have a true"Leech Seed" attack! I suggest changing your DAir buff from the extra damage/knockback to this! Heck, nerf the damage/knockback if you must, but giving him a Flower effect in its place would be awesome and would fit with his damage-centric playstyle and would give more incentive to use the move. As the move has notable lag, I never did find it to be worth the trouble originally, and while its current buff gives me slightly more incentive to try and land it, the move's still rather forgettable since I only tend to go into the air for NAir, BAir, FAir, and UAir if I think I can land a KO.
Yeah I know he already has Bullet Seed which is already a great damage builder. I just think it's a great idea that not only wouldn't infringe on his zoning/spacing/damage playstyle too much or make it overly powerful, but also emphasizes Ivy being a Grass-Type pokemon. (While Jigglypuff planting flowers with a sleeping attack is just for the lulz really...)
Oh, and I think Thinkman mentioned the possibly of nerfing Wario's DAir just a bit to make SDI escapability a bit more possible?
NO. PLEASE NO. NO. NO. I just don't think itNO. I'm so adamant about it I failed to complete that last sentence. Basically though, if Wario does possibly need any more nerfing, PLEASE don't focus on DAir. Maybe his Bite instead so it does less damage per bite?
Anyhoo I never did play Pikachu yesterday, so I wouldn't mind doing that to obtain some data on what could be buffed a bit to make up for his nerfed throws...
Anomilus
Smash Lord
I would of also suggested Ivysaur's UAir, but it's a pretty good KO move as it is, unlike DAir. I wouldn't wanna nerf that in favor of flowers, but I wouldn't want it to have that sort of "flower power" (lol pun intended). As for USmash, it's the strongest one in the game. Does it really need to also plant a flower? o_O
stingers
Smash Obsessed
LMAO did i just see someone suggest to make aether heal half damage it gives?
HOLY **** LEDGE CAMPING TO THE MAX
Counter, that's a good idea. Aether, NO FUCKING WAY
HOLY **** LEDGE CAMPING TO THE MAX
Counter, that's a good idea. Aether, NO FUCKING WAY
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Can you even make attacks heal? lol.
BTW, for Peach, I suggest her uthrow's knockback be lowered to a set amount so she can chain it until usmash like in melee. You might need to weaken usmash just a little.
BTW, for Peach, I suggest her uthrow's knockback be lowered to a set amount so she can chain it until usmash like in melee. You might need to weaken usmash just a little.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
i mean it'd just use the same action as ness/lucas' absorbers, right?
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Uh, I'm not sure it works like that. I think you'd need to absorb damage for it to heal.
Maybe if you charge aether, it absorbs while charging. That would be sweet, but maybe imbalanced.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
lol thats not a bad idea either. actually, that might actually make it useful again. landing a rest cuts your hp in half
YagamiLight
Smash Champion
The thing about ledge camping with Aether that I think nobody knows is that if Ike tries to do it more than 5 times...he'll fall straight through to the bottom of the stage. Scream. -1 stock. It's really not too good for that role. Making it heal WILL make people want to go near a recovering Ike even less than they do now, may I add.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
oh boy...so ledge, 5 aethers, ledgehop on, repeat. yay.
Anomilus
Smash Lord
That would not only be epic, but actually make sense, unlike the silly "sleeping causes a hidden energy to radiate out of her body that inflicts great damage" explanation.
Hey I was wondering about Lucario. Could his Extremespeed move be sped up? As in both the startup and the actual movement speed? Never did consider the move to be "fast", but maybe adding those speed buffs would make it just a bit safer?
Hey I was wondering about Lucario. Could his Extremespeed move be sped up? As in both the startup and the actual movement speed? Never did consider the move to be "fast", but maybe adding those speed buffs would make it just a bit safer?
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
ZOMG ANOTHER POST.
I just had a GREAT idea:
OK, so the problem is that ZSS gets wrecked by spacies because of reasons already mentioned 100 times in this thread. There is actually a really elegant solution to this I don't know why we hadn't thought of:
Buff the crap out of Paralyzer Shot.
There are a dozen reasons to do this, but here are just a few:
1. It has limited, middle-range spacing properties, thus it doesn't interfere with ZSS' existing metagame
2. Paralyzer is really not a very good move right now
3. Paralyzer buffs would have a bunch of other positive side effects, like allowing it to combo into grab (if done to my specifications)
4. It would give her a tool to combat long-range projectile spam
5. It is slow enough that it can be worked around, and would not break her in any way.
To buff it, pick any one or two of these changes:
1. Decrease end frames to somewhere between 8 and 10 if possible; this is fine, because part of the reason the move is so bad is because it starts up/ends so slowly. This wouldn't affect any match-ups significantly on its own
2. Give the start-up super armor; it has 20 frames of startup, so maybe not the whole thing, but just enough so that it won't get interrupted by laser spam
3. Increase the priority of the shot dramatically so that it clashes or beats Falco's laser; this gives ZSS a tool to fight the lasers in some limited ground-based capacity, and also makes the laser more useful universally (it needs buffing as is)
4. Increase the stun time; this rewards ZSS with an approach option should she reach mid-range. You would still have to worry about reflecting it, but that's really fine; I'm not looking for an i-win button. Also, would allow grabs out of a baby paralyzer shot
5. Increase the range JUST SLIGHTLY so that it beats Falco's forward smash with the baby hitbox; this would be done so that she can't be hard-countered by the fsmash.
I just had a GREAT idea:
OK, so the problem is that ZSS gets wrecked by spacies because of reasons already mentioned 100 times in this thread. There is actually a really elegant solution to this I don't know why we hadn't thought of:
Buff the crap out of Paralyzer Shot.
There are a dozen reasons to do this, but here are just a few:
1. It has limited, middle-range spacing properties, thus it doesn't interfere with ZSS' existing metagame
2. Paralyzer is really not a very good move right now
3. Paralyzer buffs would have a bunch of other positive side effects, like allowing it to combo into grab (if done to my specifications)
4. It would give her a tool to combat long-range projectile spam
5. It is slow enough that it can be worked around, and would not break her in any way.
To buff it, pick any one or two of these changes:
1. Decrease end frames to somewhere between 8 and 10 if possible; this is fine, because part of the reason the move is so bad is because it starts up/ends so slowly. This wouldn't affect any match-ups significantly on its own
2. Give the start-up super armor; it has 20 frames of startup, so maybe not the whole thing, but just enough so that it won't get interrupted by laser spam
3. Increase the priority of the shot dramatically so that it clashes or beats Falco's laser; this gives ZSS a tool to fight the lasers in some limited ground-based capacity, and also makes the laser more useful universally (it needs buffing as is)
4. Increase the stun time; this rewards ZSS with an approach option should she reach mid-range. You would still have to worry about reflecting it, but that's really fine; I'm not looking for an i-win button. Also, would allow grabs out of a baby paralyzer shot
5. Increase the range JUST SLIGHTLY so that it beats Falco's forward smash with the baby hitbox; this would be done so that she can't be hard-countered by the fsmash.
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