Balanced Brawl Public Preview *GENESIS UPDATE*

[Bouse]

EDIT: Oh, and about ZSS . . . first of all, this is already a very good character. I do realize that spacies may neutralize her now.

A lot of people have been pushing to make the full jab connect. I disagree with this. As a frame one option, it's could become too powerful, unless the whole jab is nerfed. I think making the third hit jab +5 but shieldable will punish the opponent for messing up, without overpowering ZSS. Furthermore, the +1-2 to Nair is a fabulous suggestion, since this move evades decay, and has significant hitstun already. It's emerging as a new part of the ZSS metagame, and this could be the icing on the cake.

Lastly, since we're so interested in buffing fsmash, and we're trying to deal with Spacies all at the same time, just give the thing reflector properties. It fits, since the characters with good projectiles all seem to have reflectors anyway, and it will be similar to Ness and Lucas. The hitbox covers a wide area, including a little behind ZSS, and this is potentially an excellent way to punish lasers. If this modifier can be adjusted, I think you'll find you've done a lot for ZSS with a subtle, non-game breaking change. She'll still find bad match-ups in Marth, MK, and potentially some of these other characters.

Hey Pierce...

F*CK YOU

Now onto valid discussion, so when a character like let's say Ike can jab combo and then connect with a dash attack it's too powerful? Just increase the knockback on the third jab by enough that it only combos at lower %'s if that's your trouble. The fact is that everytime a Zero Suit Samus attacks on the ground using a move that's not her Side+B she's opening herself for tons of hurt.

So Pierce

WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING?!

If I were to change anything with her Fsmash it would be the hitbox behind her. Make it so it sends people away from her instead of up. That way it'll be valid roll punishment and with a decent enough knockback a relatively scary move to contend with.

<3 you Pierce, I'm just bustin' your balls.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Rykoshet speaks too much truth about Zelda. Hell, I've long considered Zelda to be bottom tier, and I don't realize wtf SBR is thinking even considering that Zelda is better than Mario. Umbra and I spent a reasonable amount of time discussing Zelda in vBrawl before, and we both think Zelda belongs right underneath Jigglypuff in vBrawl. She really has nothing going for her, but the very simple change of Din's not making her go into falling (this really bolsters her recovery, which is a polarizing flaw) fixes her similarly to how you fixed Ike. +2 to last hit of Nyrau's, +2 to disappearing and reappearing Farore's, and +2 to utilt and uair to define them as **** kill moves really help define Zelda as a lightweight power character, which she is supposed to be. To me, I see Zelda as being a power character with a lot of multihit moves but light and poor recovery. This subtracts from poor recovery just enough to make her playable because Din's really does help you recover, but of course it's not the end all of recoveries in the first place. Now, she deals significant damage on more hits, and Utilt becomes a more powerful K.O. move. Oh, I guess I'd add +1 on the end of Jab. Zelda really should function as a lightweight, multihit vBrawl Ganon.

She belong behind Mario, but that's because Mario is way underrated. In spite of her overall weaknesses, her match-ups are too good to fall TOO far from where she is.

After reading through the changes, etc, I'd like to say that making Ganon's DownB always spike may be a nerf. Instead, just increase the damage on the aerial version by 1%. Ganon already had a brilliant epic spike, and I really relied on getting K.O.s at amazing percents with aerial wizkick (yes I play a little Ganon)

Yea, it is, but they can't ground people with the initial hitbox unless the entire thing spikes for whatever reason.

I'm gonna chat about Marth for a bit, since I main him.

I'm sad because Marth is exactly the same, and I have to deal with stuff from other characters. Still, I don't think this is unfair. With R.O.B. receiving no buffs, that match-up stays the same. By the looks of it, Marth's worst match-ups are now D3, Bowser, and Ivysuar. Wolf, DK, MK, and Snake are potentially netrual now. Marth still ***** most of the characters he previously *****, so their slight buffs will help, but the fundamentals of the match shouldn't alter too much, and I'll have fun competing against characters that stand more of a chance. I wouldn't mind a +1 to Dair on Marth.

If MK actually has difficulty killing Marth, he's going to be in for the fight of his life and **** will be epic. Surprisingly, despite the nature of Marth's recovery, Marth's sword allows him to combat MK in the air, and he doesn't get gimped as easily as one might predict (hell, M2k has lots of trouble edgeguarding me). Not having to dance around broken glass trying to get K.O.ed by a stupid SL or Dsmash when I swear I DIed as some ****** percent really makes this match playable. Not having to worry about Tornado as much is the icing on the cake.

Marth not worrying about Snake's Utilt ****** him so early also nerfs this really dumb match-up, but it's still fair, because ftilt is just really dumb, and Snake's aren't using Uair correctly vs. Marth. Marth's other match-ups where deemed to be mostly within the 60-40 range, and the characters that he flat out ***** should've been bolstered enough to not get demolished anymore. Marth probably serves nearly the exact same function, so he's probably perfect. Like I said, a nice little +1 on the Dair would make my day. Not a widely used move, but this will have it's usages, and slightly bolster the meteor potential on it, and allow it to kill just a little eariler.

Ivysaur still seems too telegraphed to beat Marth (though I can't say I'm especially familiar with the match-up), and while Bowser definitely got a boost, he still seems to overall unsafe to really pose a serious threat to Marth. But we'll see.

Overall, seems like a pretty good etimate of Marth's functionality in bBrawl.

 

[Rykoshet]

Is there a way to make zelda's down air actually sweet spot while someone's grounded, causing something like ganon's?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Is there a way to make zelda's down air actually sweet spot while someone's, causing something like ganon's?

Change the damage from the entire hitbox. And give it cool FLAME properties. Just to set it apart (we don't have a spike that flames anymore).

 

[GwJ]

Ok, I'm playing it now AND I ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT! I'm considering switching if this gets more popular.

 

[NintenJoe]

- Make her pummel do more damage (+1%)

I agree with this, or maybe make it faster. I've always been okay with Sheik's sub-par throws because they all send opponents upward and far away enough so Sheik doesn't get punished.

- Utilt does more damage (+2)

Utilt has always seemed fine for me. The new Ftilt and Dtilt set up the Utilt nicely, so buffing the set ups is fine for me.

- Increase the angle of dtilt again to send the opponent behind her, (maybe +1 damage)*

Dtilt angle is a little strange. I'll test it too when I play this tonight.

- Chain does more damage maybe?

I think having a tether is OK for me. Making it a viable move wouldn't be bad though...

 

[ffdgh]

lol it would be cool if you could give her a golden aura spike kick
super sonic emits the styuf

 

[Dark Sonic]

Change the damage from the entire hitbox. And give it cool FLAME properties. Just to set it apart (we don't have a spike that flames anymore).

I miss Young Link Q_Q.

Anyway, you don't actually have to change the damage to change the KB of a move you know. Base knockback, knockback growth, damage (which affects knockback growth as well), speed, size, central location, launch angle, and element of a hitbox can all be modified.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I miss Young Link Q_Q.

Anyway, you don't actually have to change the damage to change the KB of a move you know. Base knockback, knockback growth, damage (which affects knockback growth as well), speed, size, central location, launch angle, and element of a hitbox can all be modified.

Yea, I know, but we're trying to make it always "sweetspot"the quickest way is to change damage. Knockback growth probably will need a change though.


Don't we all dude, don't we all?

 

[Tommy_G]

I miss Young Link Q_Q.

Anyway, you don't actually have to change the damage to change the KB of a move you know. Base knockback, knockback growth, damage (which affects knockback growth as well), speed, size, central location, launch angle, and element of a hitbox can all be modified.

I'm wondering why no one has taken Marth and changed all of these aspects to make a reasonable Roy character...Or any new characters for that matter. With texture hacks applied, people can go crazy with it.

Oh and two questions...is this a combo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqP0xuWhJhs

If so, has anyone done anything to fix it?

 

[Revven]

I'm wondering why no one has taken Marth and changed all of these aspects to make a reasonable Roy character...Or any new characters for that matter. With texture hacks applied, people can go crazy with it.

Oh and two questions...is this a combo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqP0xuWhJhs

If so, has anyone done anything to fix it?

LOL you're too slow: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=234839 <--- Roy

 

[ffdgh]

that young link attack was a unexpected move for me XD
i was in training in melee against bowser on tamerana for fun. spamming the down a for fun when toon link happens to flame him downward.

one of those rare hotboxes like falcon's nipple spike in melee

 

[Stealth Raptor]

that doesnt look like a true combo O.o

 

[Rykoshet]

Okay, a few zelda related buffs came to mind and I threw them past some zelda mains to see what they thought (I still wanna ask DarkMusician though), granted I'm not a zelda main but as far as fully understanding the character you're free to ask around, I know her from an opponent standpoint like the back of my hand.

First off, if she can sweetspot dair a grounded opponent she'd have a good way to shield poke and set up one of her many strong upward KOs.

Secondly, if you can actually affect shield push, the push on her dsmash and fsmash should be greatened. Keep the lag as it is, theyre both spot dodgeable so she can still be punished for these properly

Thirdly, in exchange for its power being cut, up smash's ending lag could probably stand to end earlier. It would cause her up smash to be a proper setup type move and a good low percent damage builder (it would need to be easier to be SDI'd though, you dont want her freebie comboing people to 45). Couple this with her up tilt being 1 or 2% stronger and this means that to kill someone she would require more than hoping someone drops their shield in time. This also allows up smash to properly shield pressure and lessens her "noob buster" crap for low levels of play.

Nayru's love should probably pop someone up and on the opposite side of her. This makes it so that it's now a mindgame for following up, if someone jumps immediately this allows her to follow up with uair, if they DI out and try recover low, bair now becomes an option.

Din's fire's deadfall frames need to go.

And she could stand to have a viable KO with her back throw.

Voila, you now made shielding against zelda as much of a gamble as it is against anyone else. She still would be a mehish character but easily way better than she is at high level play.

 

[Linkshot]

Maybe I just play bad players, but I don't have that much trouble close-range with Zamus in vBrawl. dTilt shieldpokes and sets up for devastating combos, and due to putting her into a crawling position, it makes the opponent have a hard time punishing.

I do agree with the final hit of jab getting a large damage buff.

And on the topic of making unused moves viable, I find Lucario's dTilt provides nothing to his metagame. Maybe change it to hit at a low angle?

Back to Zamus, fSmash reflecting would be kind of lawl. I thoroughly enjoy the behind-hitbox, as it sets up into uTilt.

Her grab needs to have less ending lag. Its risk:reward ratio makes it useless.

Lastly, like Diddy, maybe make it so that she regains Flip Jump (downB) after taking damage? (Also, Flip Kick is definitely at least a decent approach from above; it needs more shieldpush though, or to heavily damage the shield.)

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm in love with mushroomy kingdom tbh. It's like a ground based character's rainbow cruise. (Which I now just read) Playing as snake or even ike there is a blast.

It stands to shake up some matchups by providing a good CP for various characters. Olimar is quite good there, and some random characters you might not expect at firstl ike Pikachu as well.

As for characters being better against worse players, I understand you're trying to cater it to a lot of people but you shouldnt consider the low end tbh. Against bad players Ike is a monster but against good ones he's still average (which is fine, I like where he is).

Right, make no mistake: This project is catering to high-end competitive play. It is simply an issue that requires care and investigation; if Zelda's general current play does not apply well at high levels, we should be cautious to not further her down that path. I'm sure everyone agrees.

I'd like to point out that the Jab will help ZSS in those matches, quite a bit imo.

The problem imo (maybe SFP will disagree, but meh) is not that we can't avoid the projectile spam, the problem is that we don't have anything we can do once we have gotten through it. Our aerial approaches are ok, but projectile spam forces ZSS to approach in very predictable patterns. Whenever we try to get in close enough to hit them our opponent can be ready for us. We are in trouble in mid-range where we normally shine because projectiles are faster than our mid-range options. And if we go in too close we will get wrecked because once we get there we have nothing to hit them with before we get owned.

Giving her a jab that will not mean a guaranteed shieldgrab in return would give ZSS possibilities to go in and create an opening.

A Dair that could actually be used without getting smashed in response might also help quite a bit, but if you ask any ZSS main, I bet they would rather have the jab change.

To be honest Thinkman, if you seriously want Zero Suit Samus to be able to beat spacies changing her Dair to have pushback on the landing frame would be decent. However, I honestly believe that the jab change will give her a "combo-break" on the stage as well as viable damage build-up.

The one thing continually brought up is that ZSS can't deal with the spams of Falco/Pit. This is entirely true, but the only way you're going to make it so that she can approach them quicker/easier would be if you reduce the start-up of her Side+B. You can't screw with the end lag for fear of ruining her spacing game to compensate so I'd say reduce the damage and knockback a smidge and give her a slight frame advantage so that her other match-ups aren't changed too heavily. This would also make your Fsmash change make sense because it would turn it into the Dsmash->Fsmash KO, making it so that a used Side+B would actually be an ineffective KO (not the fresh version mind you) at the higher percents. Obviously her Bair will still be the favorite to win for KO-ing people, but if we have more viable damage build-up and KO options i.e. SUPER SILLY FSMASH CHANGE we might see ZSS' using Bair as damage build-up instead of pure KO.

Which brings me onto my next point with ZSS. Forward Air. Make it so it'll generally connect with the second hit with minimal knockback on the first kick (I know it's minimal now... make it minute... invisible... Chevy Chase). It'll make it a better KO move since we won't have to worry about hitting with the second part of the attack instead of the first.

First off, side-b is almost certainly never going to be changed in any way. It's her ace of spades, and we're not screwing that up.

Jab change is definitely still on the table, but it's still early. This is the phrase for discovering matchup data and how the metagame has been changed; further changes come next, even if we are pretty sure now that they will be needed.

I am curious though; Squirtle's (the other character with a frame 1 jab) jab3 is similarly powershield-able unless I am totally crazy. (Although the window is smaller) Do you propose that Squirtle's jab be buffed similarly? Squirtle is more capable of grabbing the opponents that try to shield, but the general idea stands. I'm not patronizing, I'm seriosuly curious as to what your opinions would be.

Rykoshet speaks too much truth about Zelda. Hell, I've long considered Zelda to be bottom tier, and I don't realize wtf SBR is thinking even considering that Zelda is better than Mario. Umbra and I spent a reasonable amount of time discussing Zelda in vBrawl before, and we both think Zelda belongs right underneath Jigglypuff in vBrawl. She really has nothing going for her, but the very simple change of Din's not making her go into falling (this really bolsters her recovery, which is a polarizing flaw) fixes her similarly to how you fixed Ike. +2 to last hit of Nyrau's, +2 to disappearing and reappearing Farore's, and +2 to utilt and uair to define them as **** kill moves really help define Zelda as a lightweight power character, which she is supposed to be. To me, I see Zelda as being a power character with a lot of multihit moves but light and poor recovery. This subtracts from poor recovery just enough to make her playable because Din's really does help you recover, but of course it's not the end all of recoveries in the first place. Now, she deals significant damage on more hits, and Utilt becomes a more powerful K.O. move. Oh, I guess I'd add +1 on the end of Jab. Zelda really should function as a lightweight, multihit vBrawl Ganon.

I agree that no free-fall after side-b could really help her more than most people expect; this was something that was considered but put on the back-burner for now, and will definitely be revisited in investigation. I also tested similar buffs to Nayru's love, which would also need some angle tweaks to really be a good option. I'm hesitant to add damage to u-tilt and uair, but strictly knockback buffs would be worth investigating for sure. (Uair is already the strongest uair in the game, so we do need to be aware that people are already dying to it often when it connects.)

Again, Zelda will be given a large degree of investigation, more than most characters.

Just from what I've seen, THE WATER IS BAD. I understand you can't mess with water too much, but I think I'd much prefer the old water mechanic, and leave Pirate Ship banned (as it has too many other things I don't like about it anyway.) IMO Delfino is the most brilliantly designed stage in all the smash games, and this messes with it. Pirate ship just isn't that important IMO.

Thanks for your input. I know it's easy for a lot of people to want to go "RAWG CHANGE BAD", so civil and thought-out commentary like you guys are given is being taken seriously.

After reading through the changes, etc, I'd like to say that making Ganon's DownB always spike may be a nerf. Instead, just increase the damage on the aerial version by 1%. Ganon already had a brilliant epic spike, and I really relied on getting K.O.s at amazing percents with aerial wizkick (yes I play a little Ganon)

There's a more underlying problem at play here. High knockback on the second hitbox of down-b will knock people out of the grounding effect, even at low percents. The grounding makes this loss worth it, and the reasoning on the spike part is "Well, if the knockback can't be greater than (0/80), might as well have it spike."

On the plus side, it does make the move generally lead into the quake hitbox on-stage, so Ganon should end the move in a safe position. If this doesn't work right, let me know.

I also was generally able to connect a few dtilts in a really nice trap, but seeing as everyone else likes this new dtilt, and it actually makes Ganon viable, I'll agree with it for now. What does +2 to Dair do for the hitstun of the move?

I have palyed with dair some and have the code for it same, but can't off the top of my head judge the impact that particular change would have. It would probably be *somewhat* minor in terms of early combo-ability; it would probably kill about 10%+ sooner on stage too.

Pikachu and Shiek should just have +1 to like the majority of their core attacks. This makes them reasonably good as the fast damage racking characters they are suppose to be.

I approve of Sonics buffs, but he also needs +1 to ftilt and Bair. The slight boost to Bair helps his killing issue, without removing the weakness.

Once we get more matchup feedback for these characters, we'll look at the problematic ones and figure out what the best course of action is.

I really haven't seen enough Link to make an opinion, which sucks because I actually play Link.

Legan suggests arrow after enemy tech roll from boomerang. Says it's much better than the house wine and goes well with most meats.

Is it possible to decrease the charge time on Mario's FLUDD? While I enjoyed using sourspot Fair to land K.O.s, I really do approve of this new Fair, and while dtilt seems to just be a variation of utilt, it seems to work, especially because dtilt can shield stab. Let me get +1 on the final hit of the Dair, and faster FLUDD charge, and that's all I'll ask for Mario. I already think he's mid-tier in vBrawl, but this isn't the place to talk about that.

FLUDD charge time is almost certainly outside our ability to change.

Once we judge the impact these changes have on Mario's matchups, which ones they help the most and which ones not so much, we can decide what to do next. There is no substitute for real, hands-on feedback players like you are offering.

All in all, I never really liked other versions of hacked Brawl, and I greatly approve of this one. It has a good feel to it, and nearly everyone seems to like it. When you've got me and Ryko interested in a hacked version of Brawl, you already know that you're doing something right.

Heh, thanks. We really do appreciate this sort of support.

Oh, and I watch Umbra's Yoshi in vBrawl. With these changes, Yoshi is going to be legit. I don't think people understand that Yoshi is one of the heaviest characters in the game, and with this, he's going to live to like 200% every stock. I really like this, because he's defined as a speed heavyweight camper, the inverse of melee Falcon. It's a very unique path that gives Yoshi a very distinct strategy and personality. I would add +1 to the last hit of Bair though, and maybe to the last hit of jab, which is already a reasonable option from Yoshi's shield drop. He's weak against cross-ups, but I don't find that this weakness is a bad thing at all.

A long, long time ago, back in the Melee days, Rob Gambino that Yoshi is a character about trading hits. This may not be Melee, but I think that idea of Yoshi as a fast character with fortitude remains true. Yoshi is still awkward to pick up for most players, but should be well on his way to equaling the rest of the cast. I regret that we are asking Yoshi players to try using fair in new situations and remembering to Egg Brake, but these changes *are* effective and should help Yoshi retain his identity more than just throwing extra damage on eggs and nair.

My other regret is that the documentation I wrote for Yoshi in the OP emphasizes his fair change instead of Egg Braking; this was really stupid, since Egg Braking is a much more important change. The fair buff is just a slightly niche pressure and KO option that fits Yoshi well but by no means revolutionizes him.

Just reading this, you've already done an amazing job balancing, and with the potential exception of D3, Wario, and PT, this game seems like it's already way more balanced than Brawl.

I'm very glad for your thoughts, and hope you get the chance to test this and offer some sound feedback. Your following comments show a level of udnerstanding of the game's matchups and mechanics that are core to the feedback we need.

Also, I hope you can put your mind at ease to some extent about Wario and DDD. I'll get some videos up later today showing how to deal with DDD new "spike" somewhat safely, including the inhale followup. As for Wario, I repeat that he is still on the "watch list", since we are unsure of the true impact that the grab release removal will have on him, as well as his changed matchups with low tiers. Most Wario mains in our play tests are of the opinion that the net change is just *barely* negative.

If Wario is too good in general, he will of course face further minor nerfs. I am actually sitting on a very modest change to dair that simply makes it a tiny bit easier to SDI out of. It has a small but noteworthy effect, but it was not included in this release because we don't want to rush to judgement on Wario, or any character. No hurry.

I'm sad because Marth is exactly the same, and I have to deal with stuff from other characters. Still, I don't think this is unfair. With R.O.B. receiving no buffs, that match-up stays the same. By the looks of it, Marth's worst match-ups are now D3, Bowser, and Ivysuar. Wolf, R.O.B., DK, MK, Wario, PT, and Snake are potentially neutral now. Marth still ***** most of the characters he previously *****, so their slight buffs will help, but the fundamentals of the match shouldn't alter too much, and I'll have fun competing against characters that stand more of a chance. I wouldn't mind a +1 to Dair on Marth.

A lot of the low-tiers received buffs specifically focused to help them specifically against "team disjointed", aka Marth and G&W. This is actually quite hard to do, and the effectiveness of these changes for this purpose remains to be seen. At the least, the changes should affect Marth and Game & Watch as much as other characters. (A lot of changes we tested helped in other matches, but not these... they are hard to target!)

If MK actually has difficulty killing Marth, he's going to be in for the fight of his life and **** will be epic. Surprisingly, despite the nature of Marth's recovery, Marth's sword allows him to combat MK in the air, and he doesn't get gimped as easily as one might predict (hell, M2k has lots of trouble edgeguarding me). Not having to dance around broken glass trying to get K.O.ed by a stupid SL or Dsmash when I swear I DIed as some ****** percent really makes this match playable. Not having to worry about Tornado as much is the icing on the cake.

Just don't underestimate him... MK is still an intense match for both sides, in many matchups.

Marth not worrying about Snake's Utilt ****** him so early also nerfs this really dumb match-up, but it's still fair, because ftilt is just really dumb, and Snake's aren't using Uair correctly vs. Marth. Marth's other match-ups where deemed to be mostly within the 60-40 range, and the characters that he flat out ***** should've been bolstered enough to not get demolished anymore. Marth probably serves nearly the exact same function, so he's probably perfect. Like I said, a nice little +1 on the Dair would make my day. Not a widely used move, but this will have it's usages, and slightly bolster the meteor potential on it, and allow it to kill just a little eariler.

Marth really is a character that is unlikely to ever need changes. If we do change him at all, something like +1% to dair is probably the sort of thing we'd look at.

EDIT: Oh, and about ZSS . . . first of all, this is already a very good character. I do realize that spacies may neutralize her now.

A lot of people have been pushing to make the full jab connect. I disagree with this. As a frame one option, it's could become too powerful, unless the whole jab is nerfed. I think making the third hit jab +5 but shieldable will punish the opponent for messing up, without overpowering ZSS. Furthermore, the +1-2 to Nair is a fabulous suggestion, since this move evades decay, and has significant hitstun already. It's emerging as a new part of the ZSS metagame, and this could be the icing on the cake.

Buffing damage on jab3 is an interesting suggestion.

Of course, I get ahead of myself, and all this is putting the cart before the horse. Matchup data (which ZSS players are already leading the pack in) comes first, then change discussion.

Lastly, since we're so interested in buffing fsmash, and we're trying to deal with Spacies all at the same time, just give the thing reflector properties. It fits, since the characters with good projectiles all seem to have reflectors anyway, and it will be similar to Ness and Lucas. The hitbox covers a wide area, including a little behind ZSS, and this is potentially an excellent way to punish lasers. If this modifier can be adjusted, I think you'll find you've done a lot for ZSS with a subtle, non-game breaking change. She'll still find bad match-ups in Marth, MK, and potentially some of these other characters.

If I could do this, I would in a heartbeat. Also, Falcon Punch, Warlock Punch, Falcon Kick, Wizard's Foot, and a couple other moves would have various types of reflectors. Also, Nayru's love would have it's damage multiplier increased.

But alas.

 

[stingers]

I will say though, that I'm not too keen on buffing ROB's KO power any more than I want to buff Olimar's recovery, Jigglypuff's weight, Ganondorf's speed, or any other character-defining weaknesses. We will give ROB his duly deserved attention and make sure his strengths are not overshadowed by this weakness. The most useful thing anyone can do for ROB is help us understand his changed matchups.

o.O I don't want a buff to ROBs KO Power, he needs some way to setup a kill. Any way. It doesn't have to be guaranteed, it just has to work (Lol)

 

[Pierce7d]

Hey Pierce...

F*CK YOU

Now onto valid discussion, so when a character like let's say Ike can jab combo and then connect with a dash attack it's too powerful? Just increase the knockback on the third jab by enough that it only combos at lower %'s if that's your trouble. The fact is that everytime a Zero Suit Samus attacks on the ground using a move that's not her Side+B she's opening herself for tons of hurt.

So Pierce

WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING?!

If I were to change anything with her Fsmash it would be the hitbox behind her. Make it so it sends people away from her instead of up. That way it'll be valid roll punishment and with a decent enough knockback a relatively scary move to contend with.

<3 you Pierce, I'm just bustin' your balls.

Ike's jab is frame three, and you'll kindly note that he does NOT combo into the third hit of his jab, he simply gets a pretty solid reward for landing it. This WAS the same as Snake, and is similar to what I suggested for ZSS. Also, when I mentioned giving the Fsmash deflector properties, I specifically noted that this would be to help her in her more difficult match-ups, IE: the spacies, since she gets ***** by projectiles. The spacies, Mario, Ness, Lucas, Pit and R.O.B. have the best projectiles in the game, and this is accompanied by having reflectors. Even Zelda falls into this catergory. Link has a shield that automatically blocks projectiles. I don't see why Samus and ZSS are missing out.

She belong behind Mario, but that's because Mario is way underrated. In spite of her overall weaknesses, her match-ups are too good to fall TOO far from where she is.

Too true, but Zelda is really frikken bad once you fully understand her. I'm moderately confident I can beat a lot of competant Zelda's with Link, just because her design is so flawed. She can camp OK, but really gets too little reward off camping, since Din's should never connect. Fsmash is a nice wall, and frame 5 dash attack plus a good Usmash (which can be performed out of a shield or a dash) would create a solid approach game, but they screwed her over, because Zelda's grab is absolutely garbage. The hitbox has an unusual amount of active frames for a grab, but if memory serves me correctly it comes out on frame 13 or 9 or something really dumb and slow. Against Zelda, I can literally hide in my shield and hit spot dodge AFTER I see you throw a grab attempt. With no reliable aerial approaches either, she gets camped to death, and her anti-air game is subpar as well, so she can't even repel pressure. Sure she has Usmash to Usmash at which is fairly consistent against most characters, and she has dtilt into stuff and fsmash all, but it's not even close to enough, especially considering how utterly useless she is in the air. The ONLY saving grace on Zelda IMO is that since there's no hitstun in Brawl and frame advantage on hit on a lot of attacks is garbage, my little sister frequently punishes getting hit with sweetspot Fair or Bair (she's stupidly accurate with these moves, it's dumb). Still, it just took better spacing and this no longer happens to me. Marth vs. Zelda is still an 80-20 match-up IMO. Zelda has to rely on her shield far too much, and a really good Marth using Shieldbreaker gives Zelda no quarter. Anyone with any sort of good aerial mobility just trolls over her, and if your shield pressure game is good, she's done. She's got range, she's got priority, but she lacks speed and mobility to do anything with it, and she doesn't have enough coverage to make up for it. vZelda is fundamentally flawed in the exact same way as vGanon, it's just that Ganon is worse and doesn't have a project or reflector.

Yea, it is, but they can't ground people with the initial hitbox unless the entire thing spikes for whatever reason.

That just sucks, lol. Oh well, it's not THAT big of a deal. I guess I'll just stick to trolling my scrub friends with Ganon in vBrawl, and just leave him alone in this version. While I very much appreciate him and I like where he's going, it just seems like he's not going to suit my personal style. While here Ganon is being portrayed as a gimmick power character, I've always played Ganon as a trapping power character, with an anti-air focus. Giving him the useful quake, the utilt buff, and simply +2ing the ftilt with +1 on the dtilt, jab, and pummel might've done if for me. Ganon's main problem is actually that his frame data is so abyssmal that you can just throw **** in his face, and he can't do anything. Jumping takes too long, so you have to simply trade or beat your opponent, but despite Ganon's range, power, and priority, he's just too slow. He merely needs a way to say, "Get out my face, ho." If Ganon had D3's grab range, I'd call him high tier.

Ivysaur still seems too telegraphed to beat Marth (though I can't say I'm especially familiar with the match-up), and while Bowser definitely got a boost, he still seems to overall unsafe to really pose a serious threat to Marth. But we'll see.

Overall, seems like a pretty good etimate of Marth's functionality in bBrawl.

An extremely competent Ivysaur already does good against Marth, it's just that Marth can use a well place combo to 0-death Ivy, just because she really can't recover. With the given buffs (especially on Bair) and better recovery, Ivy will be giving Marth a run for his money. Let's not forget how easy Ivy can K.O. too, and that grab shouldn't be underestimated. Ivy isn't exactly slow.

Is there a way to make zelda's down air actually sweet spot while someone's grounded, causing something like ganon's?

This suggestion is win.

I'm wondering why no one has taken Marth and changed all of these aspects to make a reasonable Roy character...Or any new characters for that matter. With texture hacks applied, people can go crazy with it.

Oh and two questions...is this a combo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqP0xuWhJhs

If so, has anyone done anything to fix it?

This is not a combo.

OH, I also second the motion for triple jump glitch to be removed. This is enough of a buff to Marth enough that I would have no complaints. TBH, I actually deal with it fine in vBrawl. However, I hate it when stupid stuff happens, like I decide to use a standing option, deciding to get rid of the lag later, and I get hit by something that isn't even life threatening, but it happens to just hit me lightly off the ground, and back onto the ground before I react, and for no reason, I have massive lag. It can potentially allow an opponent who knows about the glitch to exploit it for a K.O.. It's like, if I'm playing a Marth ditto, I can dtilt my opponent, who will barely leave the ground, but if the glitch is active, I can follow up with Usmash! wtf is that?

 

[Izaw]

I ... like this o.o.. alot, haven't played it , but I love the fact that your making a patch-up for brawl.

 

[Pierce7d]

OH! DUH, wtf didn't I think of this before? ZSS getting wrecked by spacies should be dealt with the same way Snake deals with it! Crawl under the **** lasers!!!!

That being said, a buff on dtilt would greatly assist her in this match-up. Screw everything else.

And trust me, I'm not underestimating MK. I'm just appreciating the fact that I can fight him now. It's potentially neutral, and even if not neutral, probably a very FUN 55-45 for MK vs Marth..

 

[Thinkaman]

Oh yeah, I forgot to add my input on Sheik

I like the dtilt change, but she needs to be able to rack more damage. I wish you could change throws, because modifying her throws to allow for followups would be sexy.

I have come up with some suggestions:
- Make her pummel do more damage (+1%)
- Utilt does more damage (+2)
- Increase the angle of dtilt again to send the opponent behind her, (maybe +1 damage)*
- Chain does more damage maybe?

*right now I think certain characters can dair her after she dtilts at low percentage. (I'll try and confirm this)

That would be terrific if you could report on followups after d-tilts. It's okay if it's like Falco's d-throw change though, where all aerials can be powershielded and grabbed. Test MK's dair, since it is the fastest. I'll get to it later if you can't.

Chain's damage ill never be buffed, even if possible. It has too much potential to ruin the entire Ganondorf matchup.

U-tilt would need testing, since a damage change would probably need KB to be compensated, to preserve Sheik's existing followup game. The pummel suggestion is not a bad idea, but we'd need ot make sure Sheik is getting grabs in her problem matchups first. Dash attack would be another thing worth looking into altering based on matchup feedback.

My opinion on the water thing, from what I've seen, is that the changes are somewhat ridiculous. I would rather just have pirate ship banned than having the water on all the stages be pretty much an instant death.

That's just from what I've seen/read though. I'll definitely try it out once I get it.

Thanks. We are listening.

Now onto valid discussion, so when a character like let's say Ike can jab combo and then connect with a dash attack it's too powerful? Just increase the knockback on the third jab by enough that it only combos at lower %'s if that's your trouble. The fact is that everytime a Zero Suit Samus attacks on the ground using a move that's not her Side+B she's opening herself for tons of hurt.

[/B]If I were to change anything with her Fsmash it would be the hitbox behind her. Make it so it sends people away from her instead of up. That way it'll be valid roll punishment and with a decent enough knockback a relatively scary move to contend with.

Actually, the f-smash buff includes the hitbox behind her; it does 13% now!

Yea, it is, but they can't ground people with the initial hitbox unless the entire thing spikes for whatever reason.

That's not entirely true. The truth is that the attack has to be low knockback for the grounding to not be automatically canceled--and if it has to be low knockback, might as well be a spike. (Especially since a little knockback on a spike goes a long way; since the moves have to account for gravity, knockback on spikes is actually very low compared to other moves, and moves that hit straight up naturally hit much "harder".)

Ivysaur still seems too telegraphed to beat Marth (though I can't say I'm especially familiar with the match-up), and while Bowser definitely got a boost, he still seems to overall unsafe to really pose a serious threat to Marth. But we'll see.

Ivysaur has a very safe game against Marth, that now does enough damage to be a problem. I would prefer ti fight Marth with Ivysaur of the Pokemon, to be honest. Matchup data might prove me wrong of course, I haven't gotten to play any great Marth players in testing yet.

Is there a way to make zelda's down air actually sweet spot while someone's grounded, causing something like ganon's?

I admit that I know what you are talking about and I don't understand how or why it works that way. As Zelda gets a close inspect over the coming days, I will try and figure it out.

Change the damage from the entire hitbox. And give it cool FLAME properties. Just to set it apart (we don't have a spike that flames anymore).

I'm gonna come out and say that moves will be given flame element if and only if that character is found to specifically struggle against Ivysaur.

Ok, I'm playing it now AND I ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT! I'm considering switching if this gets more popular.

Thanks for your support; I hope you can share in the feedback process! Please, give us your impressions of the matchups you get a chance to play against others!

Utilt has always seemed fine for me. The new Ftilt and Dtilt set up the Utilt nicely, so buffing the set ups is fine for me.

Dtilt angle is a little strange. I'll test it too when I play this tonight.

We think we have a decent basic framework for Sheik's core game right now, a good starting point for future changes to start from. If you find anything that feels weird or doesn't work well in some matchups, please help us out and share.

lol it would be cool if you could give her a golden aura spike kick
super sonic emits the styuf

Heh, sadly some things like Super Sonic's glow and Peach's Peach Bomber hearts are not typical elements (like fire or ice or coin) that can be applied to other moves.

Okay, a few zelda related buffs came to mind and I threw them past some zelda mains to see what they thought (I still wanna ask DarkMusician though), granted I'm not a zelda main but as far as fully understanding the character you're free to ask around, I know her from an opponent standpoint like the back of my hand.

First off, if she can sweetspot dair a grounded opponent she'd have a good way to shield poke and set up one of her many strong upward KOs.

Secondly, if you can actually affect shield push, the push on her dsmash and fsmash should be greatened. Keep the lag as it is, theyre both spot dodgeable so she can still be punished for these properly

Thirdly, in exchange for its power being cut, up smash's ending lag could probably stand to end earlier. It would cause her up smash to be a proper setup type move and a good low percent damage builder (it would need to be easier to be SDI'd though, you dont want her freebie comboing people to 45). Couple this with her up tilt being 1 or 2% stronger and this means that to kill someone she would require more than hoping someone drops their shield in time. This also allows up smash to properly shield pressure and lessens her "noob buster" crap for low levels of play.

Nayru's love should probably pop someone up and on the opposite side of her. This makes it so that it's now a mindgame for following up, if someone jumps immediately this allows her to follow up with uair, if they DI out and try recover low, bair now becomes an option.

Din's fire's deadfall frames need to go.

And she could stand to have a viable KO with her back throw.

Voila, you now made shielding against zelda as much of a gamble as it is against anyone else. She still would be a mehish character but easily way better than she is at high level play.

I appreciate the thought you are giving Zelda. I do want to see how Zelda fares against the changed characters before we decide which paths to take.

It's interesting that stages like Mushroomy and Onett are probably bad for Sheik but goo for Zelda. Hmmm. We'll see how that goes.

Maybe I just play bad players, but I don't have that much trouble close-range with Zamus in vBrawl. dTilt shieldpokes and sets up for devastating combos, and due to putting her into a crawling position, it makes the opponent have a hard time punishing.

I do agree with the final hit of jab getting a large damage buff.

And on the topic of making unused moves viable, I find Lucario's dTilt provides nothing to his metagame. Maybe change it to hit at a low angle?

Back to Zamus, fSmash reflecting would be kind of lawl. I thoroughly enjoy the behind-hitbox, as it sets up into uTilt.

Her grab needs to have less ending lag. Its risk:reward ratio makes it useless.

Lastly, like Diddy, maybe make it so that she regains Flip Jump (downB) after taking damage? (Also, Flip Kick is definitely at least a decent approach from above; it needs more shieldpush though, or to heavily damage the shield.)

Thanks for the input, ZSS and Zelda are quite the popular ladies around here! I hope you can get some hands-on matchup data later.

Also, Lucario's d-tilt could be an interesting option to consider. once we find out just how much he is impacted by the other characters' changes, we can decide what to do. I hadn't previosuly considered d-tilt but it might be a decent place to look, depending on the new characters he is found to struggle with most.

 

[Bouse]

First off, side-b is almost certainly never going to be changed in any way. It's her ace of spades, and we're not screwing that up.

Jab change is definitely still on the table, but it's still early. This is the phrase for discovering matchup data and how the metagame has been changed; further changes come next, even if we are pretty sure now that they will be needed.

I am curious though; Squirtle's (the other character with a frame 1 jab) jab3 is similarly powershield-able unless I am totally crazy. (Although the window is smaller) Do you propose that Squirtle's jab be buffed similarly? Squirtle is more capable of grabbing the opponents that try to shield, but the general idea stands. I'm not patronizing, I'm seriosuly curious as to what your opinions would be.

My favorite example of a jab combo is Link's. I feel it's the most balanced and interesting in the game. It makes excellent use of the Jab Cancel and I feel it should be the accepted average for a 3-hit jab combo. You can choose to complete it, or cancel after either the first or second hits and combo into other moves. The problem with Zero Suit Samus is that a grab isn't a viable choice for her, her grab has too much start-up time to be effectively used in a Jab Cancel so her crappy jab is always punished. Most characters have the benefit of a Jab Combo for damage build-up. Minus a character like Marth, who has a solid replacement for it.

The problem is that Zero Suit Samus doesn't have a basic combo starter that most characters have the luxury of having. To be quite honest it really seems insane to me that this is even a discussion. Take my suggestion and make the knockback on the third hit more than it is now once you give her a valid jab combo and she won't be all that ******** combo-wise.

As for Squirtle, his jab has no real problem but the fact that something that's designed to be a "combo" from the get-go just doesn't work makes no sense to me. So yes, Squirtle's should be fixed because he shouldn't be forced into having to grab after the second hit. He should have the mindgame available to him.

 

[Pierce7d]

My favorite example of a jab combo is Link's. I feel it's the most balanced and interesting in the game. It makes excellent use of the Jab Cancel and I feel it should be the accepted average for a 3-hit jab combo. You can choose to complete it, or cancel after either the first or second hits and combo into other moves. The problem with Zero Suit Samus is that a grab isn't a viable choice for her, her grab has too much start-up time to be effectively used in a Jab Cancel so her crappy jab is always punished. Most characters have the benefit of a Jab Combo for damage build-up. Minus a character like Marth, who has a solid replacement for it.

The problem is that Zero Suit Samus doesn't have a basic combo starter that most characters have the luxury of having. To be quite honest it really seems insane to me that this is even a discussion. Take my suggestion and make the knockback on the third hit more than it is now once you give her a valid jab combo and she won't be all that ******** combo-wise.

As for Squirtle, his jab has no real problem but the fact that something that's designed to be a "combo" from the get-go just doesn't work makes no sense to me. So yes, Squirtle's should be fixed because he shouldn't be forced into having to grab after the second hit. He should have the mindgame available to him.

Once again, fixed by dtilt. Give ZSS dtilt enough power so it sets up for stuff. Since ZSS crawls, it doesn't negate her worst match-ups at all, but let's her reasonably fight them with a great dtilt.

 

[Thinkaman]

o.O I don't want a buff to ROBs KO Power, he needs some way to setup a kill. Any way. It doesn't have to be guaranteed, it just has to work (Lol)

Sorry I misunderstood you. Since KO setups are going to vary substancially by character, we really do need to uncover what ROBs new worst matchups are. If he is going to get a change remotely like this, we have to be certain it helps him in the right places, you know? I hope ROB players can offer feedback like this.

Too true, but Zelda is really frikken bad once you fully understand her. I'm moderately confident I can beat a lot of competant Zelda's with Link, just because her design is so flawed. She can camp OK, but really gets too little reward off camping, since Din's should never connect. Fsmash is a nice wall, and frame 5 dash attack plus a good Usmash (which can be performed out of a shield or a dash) would create a solid approach game, but they screwed her over, because Zelda's grab is absolutely garbage. The hitbox has an unusual amount of active frames for a grab, but if memory serves me correctly it comes out on frame 13 or 9 or something really dumb and slow. Against Zelda, I can literally hide in my shield and hit spot dodge AFTER I see you throw a grab attempt. With no reliable aerial approaches either, she gets camped to death, and her anti-air game is subpar as well, so she can't even repel pressure. Sure she has Usmash to Usmash at which is fairly consistent against most characters, and she has dtilt into stuff and fsmash all, but it's not even close to enough, especially considering how utterly useless she is in the air. The ONLY saving grace on Zelda IMO is that since there's no hitstun in Brawl and frame advantage on hit on a lot of attacks is garbage, my little sister frequently punishes getting hit with sweetspot Fair or Bair (she's stupidly accurate with these moves, it's dumb). Still, it just took better spacing and this no longer happens to me. Marth vs. Zelda is still an 80-20 match-up IMO. Zelda has to rely on her shield far too much, and a really good Marth using Shieldbreaker gives Zelda no quarter. Anyone with any sort of good aerial mobility just trolls over her, and if your shield pressure game is good, she's done. She's got range, she's got priority, but she lacks speed and mobility to do anything with it, and she doesn't have enough coverage to make up for it. vZelda is fundamentally flawed in the exact same way as vGanon, it's just that Ganon is worse and doesn't have a project or reflector.

Zelda isn't going to be easy to work on, that's for sure.

And FYI, her grabs come out on 12, 11, and 14. Easily worse than all other non-tethers in the game.

An extremely competent Ivysaur already does good against Marth, it's just that Marth can use a well place combo to 0-death Ivy, just because she really can't recover. With the given buffs (especially on Bair) and better recovery, Ivy will be giving Marth a run for his money. Let's not forget how easy Ivy can K.O. too, and that grab shouldn't be underestimated. Ivy isn't exactly slow.

Ivy does struggle with reliable KOs at times, especially if fair is stale. IMO a good PT will try to finish Marth with Charizard, and get back to fighting with Ivysaur for the majority of the stock sooner.

OH, I also second the motion for triple jump glitch to be removed. This is enough of a buff to Marth enough that I would have no complaints. TBH, I actually deal with it fine in vBrawl. However, I hate it when stupid stuff happens, like I decide to use a standing option, deciding to get rid of the lag later, and I get hit by something that isn't even life threatening, but it happens to just hit me lightly off the ground, and back onto the ground before I react, and for no reason, I have massive lag. It can potentially allow an opponent who knows about the glitch to exploit it for a K.O.. It's like, if I'm playing a Marth ditto, I can dtilt my opponent, who will barely leave the ground, but if the glitch is active, I can follow up with Usmash! wtf is that?

We'll consider people's opinions on this issue. Personally, I feel uneasy about messing with mechanics like this without specific balance intent; this isn't the same as tripping. It affects most of my characters except for Jigglypuff, and I don't really mind the nuance it adds to the game.

Of course, if it is disadvantaging characters in specific matchups that they are struggling with... it will probably have to go.

OH! DUH, wtf didn't I think of this before? ZSS getting wrecked by spacies should be dealt with the same way Snake deals with it! Crawl under the **** lasers!!!!

That being said, a buff on dtilt would greatly assist her in this match-up. Screw everything else.

Can Wolf lasers be crawled under? I know as Jigglypuff I can't duck them...

Otherwise, this is a very good point. Consider ZSS d-tilt on the table.

And trust me, I'm not underestimating MK. I'm just appreciating the fact that I can fight him now. It's potentially neutral, and even if not neutral, probably a very FUN 55-45 for MK vs Marth..

Playtest groups before this release were very pleased with where MK's matchups were. I hope all characters can be this successful.

 

[Thinkaman]

Bouse, I just want to throw in that you are the first person to ever suggest buffing Squirtle. Not saying you are crazy, just that I think it's funny.

 

[Bouse]

Once again, fixed by dtilt. Give ZSS dtilt enough power so it sets up for stuff. Since ZSS crawls, it doesn't negate her worst match-ups at all, but let's her reasonably fight them with a great dtilt.

Dtilt is pretty punishable, you'd have to cut ending lag to make it comparable to a jab setup for combos. I honestly think her Jab Combo is the only pain in the neck that she has at the moment. A frame one jab combo would be visibly overpowered by now. Changing it so that she might be able to "combat-walk" by accident from the 2nd hit, which is the only foreseeable glitch I can perceive happening, wouldn't be all too terrible and easily fixable by changing the angle.

It would even her out with a lot of the roster and at worst the Spacies and Pit would be 40:60, which isn't an unreasonable match-up.

Edit: Yeah I know... but I mained Link for 6 months. I highly appreciate Jab mindgames.

 

[Thinkaman]

Dtilt is pretty punishable, you'd have to cut ending lag to make it comparable to a jab setup for combos. I honestly think her Jab Combo is the only pain in the neck that she has at the moment. A frame one jab combo would be visibly overpowered by now. Changing it so that she might be able to "combat-walk" by accident from the 2nd hit, which is the only foreseeable glitch I can perceive happening, wouldn't be all too terrible and easily fixable by changing the angle.

It would even her out with a lot of the roster and at worst the Spacies and Pit would be 40:60, which isn't an unreasonable match-up.

Edit: Yeah I know... but I mained Link for 6 months. I highly appreciate Jab mindgames.

I'll admit, I'm still not sure I understand the logic as to why jab is specifically effective against those with projectiles. I sort of grasp the idea that her preferred long-range options are shut down, but is that the only reasoning?

And yes, if this were to be changed, it would be a knockback/angle change, not timing. Timing is for last-ditch cases.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Too true, but Zelda is really frikken bad once you fully understand her. I'm moderately confident I can beat a lot of competant Zelda's with Link, just because her design is so flawed. She can camp OK, but really gets too little reward off camping, since Din's should never connect. Fsmash is a nice wall, and frame 5 dash attack plus a good Usmash (which can be performed out of a shield or a dash) would create a solid approach game, but they screwed her over, because Zelda's grab is absolutely garbage. The hitbox has an unusual amount of active frames for a grab, but if memory serves me correctly it comes out on frame 13 or 9 or something really dumb and slow. Against Zelda, I can literally hide in my shield and hit spot dodge AFTER I see you throw a grab attempt. With no reliable aerial approaches either, she gets camped to death, and her anti-air game is subpar as well, so she can't even repel pressure. Sure she has Usmash to Usmash at which is fairly consistent against most characters, and she has dtilt into stuff and fsmash all, but it's not even close to enough, especially considering how utterly useless she is in the air. The ONLY saving grace on Zelda IMO is that since there's no hitstun in Brawl and frame advantage on hit on a lot of attacks is garbage, my little sister frequently punishes getting hit with sweetspot Fair or Bair (she's stupidly accurate with these moves, it's dumb). Still, it just took better spacing and this no longer happens to me. Marth vs. Zelda is still an 80-20 match-up IMO. Zelda has to rely on her shield far too much, and a really good Marth using Shieldbreaker gives Zelda no quarter. Anyone with any sort of good aerial mobility just trolls over her, and if your shield pressure game is good, she's done. She's got range, she's got priority, but she lacks speed and mobility to do anything with it, and she doesn't have enough coverage to make up for it. vZelda is fundamentally flawed in the exact same way as vGanon, it's just that Ganon is worse and doesn't have a project or reflector.

Yeah, believe me, I know.

The grab especially sucks, she needs a better way to shield pressure and she needs it now.

But somehow, she still has a number of good match-ups, including some nice high tier match-ups, but she's pretty bad in the metagame, but she beats most characters below her, she's about where she belongs.

That just sucks, lol. Oh well, it's not THAT big of a deal. I guess I'll just stick to trolling my scrub friends with Ganon in vBrawl, and just leave him alone in this version. While I very much appreciate him and I like where he's going, it just seems like he's not going to suit my personal style. While here Ganon is being portrayed as a gimmick power character, I've always played Ganon as a trapping power character, with an anti-air focus. Giving him the useful quake, the utilt buff, and simply +2ing the ftilt with +1 on the dtilt, jab, and pummel might've done if for me. Ganon's main problem is actually that his frame data is so abyssmal that you can just throw **** in his face, and he can't do anything. Jumping takes too long, so you have to simply trade or beat your opponent, but despite Ganon's range, power, and priority, he's just too slow. He merely needs a way to say, "Get out my face, ho." If Ganon had D3's grab range, I'd call him high tier.

Lol can we do that? Please?

Yea, the new Ganon is a techchaser's dream. Granted, Ganon has always been a good techchaser, but he's MUCH better it now.

Yea, if we could get back the upwards hitbox after the initial frames, it would be nice.

An extremely competent Ivysaur already does good against Marth, it's just that Marth can use a well place combo to 0-death Ivy, just because she really can't recover. With the given buffs (especially on Bair) and better recovery, Ivy will be giving Marth a run for his money. Let's not forget how easy Ivy can K.O. too, and that grab shouldn't be underestimated. Ivy isn't exactly slow.

Well, he's not slow overall, but his kill moves generally are.

Yea, his grab is good.

I can definitely see it helping against Marth, I'm just hesitant to say that it allows Ivy to actually be an advantagious match-up. Closer to even.

That's not entirely true. The truth is that the attack has to be low knockback for the grounding to not be automatically canceled--and if it has to be low knockback, might as well be a spike. (Especially since a little knockback on a spike goes a long way; since the moves have to account for gravity, knockback on spikes is actually very low compared to other moves, and moves that hit straight up naturally hit much "harder".)

Top of the hitbox having different properties?

Ivysaur has a very safe game against Marth, that now does enough damage to be a problem. I would prefer ti fight Marth with Ivysaur of the Pokemon, to be honest. Matchup data might prove me wrong of course, I haven't gotten to play any great Marth players in testing yet.

Again, a problem, I'm just not feeling an advantageous match-up on it yet. But again, I'm particularly familiar with Ivysaur (I know Charizard a lot better actually), so we'll see.

I'm gonna come out and say that moves will be given flame element if and only if that character is found to specifically struggle against Ivysaur.

Lol

But in all honestly, I see Ivysaur becoming a horrible match-up for her given the buffs. And I mean polarizing. His natural spacing game is just too powerful against her without a reasonable approach.

 

[Chaco]

Alright, more Yoshi crap. This time not pushing for OoS options. But instead an alternative similar to what they did in Brawl Plus. They made Yoshi drop his shield twice as fast. So instead of being able to do OoS things, this will still help us a lot. It doesn't go against the shield specifics either, something you guys were hoping to keep.

 

[Pierce7d]

Uh, in terms of the triple jump glitch, I find this hinders me the most in Marth's worse match-up in vBrawl (MK). Metaknight already makes it challenging to recover and land back solidly on the stage, and having to worry about this is really just a pain in the ***.

ZSS probably cannot crawl under Wolf's laser, but considering that ALL top level players should almost always perfect shield Wolf's laser, I hardly find myself sympathetic.

Ivysaur's Bair can gimp the hell outta Marth, and UpB also bolsters edgeguarding against opponent's recovering high if you don't fall into a vulnerability state. Marth will have a hard time getting in, get hit hard, and lose the gimp. Perhaps neutral, but I think a really smart Ivy will find themselves winning this match-up. I feel it'll be more like DK vs. Marth, which I already feel is in DK's favor, but you can't combo Ivy as much as DK (you can combo Ivy still, but like I just said, just not as much). Ivy's ground game is already on par with DKs as well. Ivysaur also has a projectile though it should always be perfect shielded. I'm very interested in playing this match-up against a potent bIvysaur one day.

I feel that removing Yoshi's shield weakness should not be done. I vastly appreciate it as part of Yoshi's character. However, I do feel he should receive the other buffs I listed, to make him more damaging, and ore of a contender. Also, +2 to downB. That move really deserves reward. It's extremely telegraphed and unsafe as hell. I look at Bowser Bomb and Kirby's rock, and vastly appreciate those moves (if you're not using Stone to edgeguard with Kirby, you're doing it wrong.) Why is Yoshi's similar move so weak in comparison?

 

[Thinkaman]

I just wanted to throw in some more thoughts about Zelda and PT, and the projects goals.

It's been said that we aim to not have any matchups more skewed than 60:40. This is correct. For Sheik and Zelda individual matchups, I will say that a couple 30:70 matchups would be acceptable, as long as the other matchup is at least 50:50. Similarly, I am okay with a Pokmon having even a 25:75 matchup if the others do favorably, and all Pokemon are good in their own various other matchups.

Also, it's possible that one of Zelda's worst matchups will actually be DDD by the time we are done with her. Now that he has good tech chases on her, I'm not sure what will happen.

Alright, more Yoshi crap. This time not pushing for OoS options. But instead an alternative similar to what they did in Brawl Plus. They made Yoshi drop his shield twice as fast. So instead of being able to do OoS things, this will still help us a lot. It doesn't go against the shield specifics either, something you guys were hoping to keep.

Timing changes are still undesirable; Yoshi mains are already going to have a small bump in going back and forth between the versions with Egg Braking bing a factor; having Yoshi have substancially different defensive games in both versions is just not a good thing. Yoshi's shield is crippling, but other characters get around weaknesses that are just as big. If you can help provide matchup data to further Yoshi's study, that would be most helpful. We don't want to miss anything.

 

[Chaco]

I agree with Pierce7d on the Yoshi Bomb part.

But I see what you mean about the shield. However with the changed currently, Yoshi will live forever. That's always good.

 

[Eldiran]

I've been toying around with new Captain Falcon (who is awesome by the way) by fighting against random Lv. 9 CPUs. Just wanted to mention, I got spiked by a Sonic spring straight down -- I totally would have made it back except for the new buff he got. It was strangely satisfying .

P.S. Anyone want to play some online matches with this codeset? PM me if so.

 

[Bouse]

I'll admit, I'm still not sure I understand the logic as to why jab is specifically effective against those with projectiles. I sort of grasp the idea that her preferred long-range options are shut down, but is that the only reasoning?

And yes, if this were to be changed, it would be a knockback/angle change, not timing. Timing is for last-ditch cases.

It makes it so that at close range she has a higher chance to punish a mistake by anyone making it so that it rounds out her ground game against all characters. Zero Suit Samus really thrives at mid-range, but those characters have no problem against her. However, her close range game is quite poor. Improving that means that she can deal with people up close and personal. Trust me when I say it'll balance out the match-up.

It makes it so that it's punishable for opponents that are in close, who normally ZSS can't fight against because her options are her tilts or get grabbed. The tilts are predictable and grabbing... well... it's self-explanatory.

 

[Thinkaman]

Yoshi Bomb is not a bad idea to investigate changes to; the key will be determining if Yoshi can use it in his worst matchups to greater effect. Do remember that the stars have been given a somewhat large buff, even though they are still just stars.

How important is grounded down-B to yoshi's game? I experimented with some changes to both the ground and general aerial hitboxes during development, including a hilariously oddball change where the first hit FROZE and the aerial hit was FIRE. It was silly.

 

[Thinkaman]

It makes it so that at close range she has a higher chance to punish a mistake by anyone making it so that it rounds out her ground game against all characters. Zero Suit Samus really thrives at mid-range, but those characters have no problem against her. However, her close range game is quite poor. Improving that means that she can deal with people up close and personal. Trust me when I say it'll balance out the match-up.

It makes it so that it's punishable for opponents that are in close, who normally ZSS can't fight against because her options are her tilts or get grabbed. The tilts are predictable and grabbing... well... it's self-explanatory.

ZSS has a grab?

We'll keeping everything on the table at this point. Discussion is good.

 

[NintenJoe]

Why is Yoshi's similar move so weak in comparison?

The Yoshi bomb has stars that prevent Yoshi from being assaulted by grounded opponents, much akin to the stars that DDD has after his UpB recovery. On the other hand, I think it's the second most predictable behind Kirby's rock, but Kirby can live when he rocks off the stage. The buff sounds like a good idea, but the stars were buffed a little too. IDK I don't play Yoshi but it sounds like the move should have a little bit more of a reward.

 

[Bouse]

ZSS has a grab?

We'll keeping everything on the table at this point. Discussion is good.

Her grab is kinda trash, minus her buffered chain-grab. Unfortunately a single side-step gains them the ability to punish viciously.

 

[Steeler]

Personally, I have zero problem with Pokemon Trainer and Zelda+Sheik being the top two characters. (By an appropriately small margin of course.)

yeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

edit

finally some pt discussion

Just reading this, you've already done an amazing job balancing, and with the potential exception of D3, Wario, and PT, this game seems like it's already way more balanced than Brawl.

what's wrong with PT?? too good now?

first of all, i will say that although ivysaur now does much better against marth since her spacing game has been brought up to par, squirtle may be even against marth now as well. squirtle's ground game is quite underrated and complements his SH options very well. and water gun is a hilarious tool to use and can work pretty well against marth to put him in tough positions and get some gimps. charizard is still probably a 40:60 matchup, could be 45:55 but his KO potential is a lot more helpful in the overall PT matchup. bair and fair are pretty dangerous for marth and can lead to low percent gimp (even moreso than in vbrawl, anyway)

i haven't played any good marths in bbrawl but i'll say that this seems like a neutral matchup to me. i wish i could take pierce up on his offer. :[

 

[Thinkaman]

Steeler, your sig is insane.

I just did some slow-mo tests with Zelda, to imagine how some changes might help her. Also, I don't know what I was thinking, she is still going to suck for DDD; she has one of the longest tech rolls, not shortest, I'm stupid. Regrabbing her out of d-throw is often impossible.

I think changing the angle on u-tilt to be more vertical and thus kill sooner would be helpful, and marginally preferred to just increasing knockback. I'll need to look at the hitboxes this move has though.

F-tilt I have mixed feelings about. Do we want to make it better at killing, or more consistent in setting up other things? I would not be opposed to making this Zelda's "game changer" by speeding up the ending lag so it is safe on block and has doesn't kill but leads to good followups.

Nayru's love is the only other move I would be comfortable with changing timing (ending lag) on. It just doesn't seem viable in a lot of matchups. Angle/setup cahgnes are also worth looking at.

D-tilt is fine. No, we can't change trip ratios.

Jab will probably be unchanged. Early on I did an experiment where Zelda had 1% jab hits that put a flower on the opponent's head. It was cute and looked natural, but the extra damage started to encroach on Sheik's turf a tiny bit. A 1% jab alone might be a good idea though, sicne it does less damage but MIGHT lead to immediate followups. (2% jab hits too far away, and I don't want to leave the damage but nerf the knockback.)

I think f-smash should be harder to DI out of. U-smash is fine. D-smash might get that higher angle but is otherwise good.

Fair and bair have little reason to be changed. Uair does it's job too. Dair needs to be investigated. Nair is sort of a black sheep imo. How does it fit into Zelda's high level playstyle?