Balanced Brawl Public Preview *GENESIS UPDATE*

[Ich Bin Awesome]

Link's arrows have been talked about a lot, but still no vids huh?

 

[Thinkaman]

If you wanna do that, then make it so Zelda and shiek are loaded at all time. Quick switching will facilitate them actually being used as a team rather then one being ignored.

Buff Sheik's fair, and make sure ftilt combos into it. The angle's nice, but it needs more power to supplant her weaknesses. Or Bair.

Zelda, increase the hitstun on non-sweetspotted fair and bair, that NEEDS to be safe on hit.

Improving her overall teleport speed would also go a LONG way in dealing with her polarizing match-ups (like Snake).

D-smash was a good choice to buff though.

If I can figure out how to preload Zelda and Sheik into the 5th and 6th character slots, it's on like Donkey Kong. Well, not really. More like just Sheik + Zelda.

Buffing Sheik's fair is likely to make bad things happen, I'm calling it right now. It chains into itself off-stage in many situations, so screwing that up would hurt Sheik; otherwise, increasing Sheik's gimp-ability would help little in her trouble matchups and make some characters struggle much more against her.

I'm not going to lie, I like the idea of sourspotted Zelda fair/bair being somehow made safe on hit. That would let Zelda more aggressively pursue those KOs to some degree, which improves her without stepping on Sheik's territory any.

I'm not sure I want to mess with teleport's speed... Zelda already has a recovery that must be "learned", so changing the timing on it is double-bad. However, perhaps we can improve the hitbox that comes out when she reappears? I have no intent to make it safe on block, but maybe it could pushing blocking opponents back more? I'll play with it, and once we have good matchup data for her, we'll see if that's a road we need to follow.

I'm actually thinking the d-smash buff might need it's angle INCREASED by a couple degree to be effective, especially on large stages like FD and Wi-Fi. We'll see.

 

[Rykoshet]

If the angle isnt increased, DIing down and teching is always the most viable option. When it used to auto kill ike I'd do this all the time. Anyway I have a few extra suggestions but mostly they revolve around snake and I think ren gave my ideas to you anyway.

Long story short is

Snake's jab combo is weak enough for it to be true combo. ZSS should be treated the same.
Snake's down tilt, due to the relatively limited hitbox, should flat out KO at 140 on a midweight character.
The claymore should probably raise in killshot viability, limiting its unintentional comboability.

Ike's front hitbox on his downsmash is worthless. If I want to hit something on frame 13 and kill with it, I'd use up tilt.

Naircide is lame

Counter is a move I would NEVER use considering the reward gained. I'd rather use eruption every time. If you cant fix its damage mod, angle, or invincibility frames, instead make its knockback truck-like.

Dedede is pretty ghodly but if you dont lower the deathline on spear pillar that's auto win on a lot of matchups.

Sheik needs a viable KO shot, I'm sorry.

Zelda is right now the worst character in the game, she has no safe on block mves and no sheild pressure tactics. Both characters should be viable on their own with minor exploitable losses, she's not poke trainer.

Wolf's shine is good but making it pop up like falco's did would probably make him much better.

I like link as he is now but increasing the vertical gain of his up B considering he has no horizontal option wouldnt be a bad idea.

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm going to bed 'cause I'm beat, but I wanted to throw in one quick comment about DDD on Spear Pillar; if the opponent DIs out it can only kill space animals and DDD himself. During testing I was able to survive even with Sheik and Falcon.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Naircide is lame

Indeed.

Counter is a move I would NEVER use considering the reward gained. I'd rather use eruption every time. If you cant fix its damage mod, angle, or invincibility frames, instead make its knockback truck-like.

...They also can't mess with counter multipliers unless something changed in the last week. Counter is doomed to being terrible. They CAN make it have less ending lag and the angle<_<. Those are the only things they can do with it. Startup lag won't work because the invincibility frames (and I'm assuming counter frames as well) will not move.

 

[JOE!]

So, Bowser still has grab release options, but theyre just not gaurenteed? Ok, I can live with that..

But, I thought of something for you guys to test...that may be broken for boozer (and possibly charizard):

Pick a water lvl, damage your opponent a bit, toss them in water, CAMP WITH FIRE BREATH.

just tossing it out that the fire breath ability on a swimming opponent keeps them pressured there if your angle it right, while racking nice damage, at the magic %, instant KO

 

[adumbrodeus]

If I can figure out how to preload Zelda and Sheik into the 5th and 6th character slots, it's on like Donkey Kong. Well, not really. More like just Sheik + Zelda.

Ok, I see. Hopefully.

Buffing Sheik's fair is likely to make bad things happen, I'm calling it right now. It chains into itself off-stage in many situations, so screwing that up would hurt Sheik; otherwise, increasing Sheik's gimp-ability would help little in her trouble matchups and make some characters struggle much more against her.

The thing is at higher percentages she really lacks a vaible killer. Having it a low initial knockback but high growth would allow her to actually kill with something.

But if you realize that Shiek needs a buff instead of an exchange, how about bair?

I'm not going to lie, I like the idea of sourspotted Zelda fair/bair being somehow made safe on hit. That would let Zelda more aggressively pursue those KOs to some degree, which improves her without stepping on Sheik's territory any.

Then please do. Increasing the damage and/or knockback would do it, it's definately not gonna replace the sweet-spot any time soon.

I'm not sure I want to mess with teleport's speed... Zelda already has a recovery that must be "learned", so changing the timing on it is double-bad. However, perhaps we can improve the hitbox that comes out when she reappears? I have no intent to make it safe on block, but maybe it could pushing blocking opponents back more? I'll play with it, and once we have good matchup data for her, we'll see if that's a road we need to follow.

I know, but the fact that an onstage landing will result in an Ike f-smash on reaction ... it's really just too overall unsafe, it's like ganondorf melee recovery, you're getting back, but you're getting sent right back again. I think most Zelda mains would kill to make it faster, even if they had to relearned slightly.

I'm actually thinking the d-smash buff might need it's angle INCREASED by a couple degree to be effective, especially on large stages like FD and Wi-Fi. We'll see.

Just played around with it a bit more... yeah, please. It's too easy to DI down and tech now.

 

[Linkshot]

I just want to throw it out there that in normal Brawl, Lucario's bad matchups are anybody that has offstage pressuring.

Like DJBrowny said about Sonic's buffs, buffing Lucario's Force Palm Flame is a definite "wtf?"

If anything, perhaps a 1% hitbox when Extreme Speed collides and sends him into freefall? Just a flinch; this way it doesn't help on-stage game much; just recovery. Invincibility during startup is a must, as well. There's far too much time for the opponent to just go "No."

As for Link's recovery, is it possible to make Down+B shorten a bomb's lifespan instead of toss (when holding)? I think the bombs are the key to making his recovery better. They need to be slightly fiddled with.

 

[Ken Neth]

I just read through all 60 pages of this thread, and I must say that I think this is a very good idea. I really like what you two are trying to do, and after a little tweaking I'm sure this will be an excellent game. I have some ideas and opinions about it so far, but I want to actually try it myself before I make any judgments on some of the changes made (as should everyone else who has criticism >_>)

I'm definitely going to try this out as soon as I can. Maybe even get a smashfest with it or something. I'll let you know my thoughts on it once that happens.

 

[elheber]

I must have this. Thank you guys for all the work. I'll give feedback once I've played my fingers off.

 

[Power of Slash]

There's only really one thing that crosses my mind that affects the character I play. Is there anyway to adjust TL's Fsmash so that I can actually hit the opponent with both attacks instead of it being escaped so easily, as to sort of give it a use? If that's too much, I understand, but this would really expand on a form of reliable kill move for Tink. Punishing rolls for a kill or a spot dodge with this move was what I think was intended with it in the first place, but it's basically deemed useless, and we're left with the weaker Dsmash. One could argue Usmash could do this, but it doesn't do it nearly as well at all as most of the time it ends up being shielded, or it doesn't really kill where Fsmash would have.

I understand if that's a bit much, but just throwing that out there. If it's against something please inform me. If you guys have already done so inform me of that as well, for I'm only aware of the grounded Up-B fix(which I appreciate as well).

I saw TL needed discussion, and I read back through the thread, didn't see this replied to so I'll bring this up again.

For short, I think fixing Fsmash so that the 2nd hit isn't so easy to get out of. Like there's almost no reason to use this attack in vbrawl because of that, and I explain the benefits in that quoted section.

 

[ffdgh]

we need an online ffa so see how this works in big groups and teams

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Sonic IS that bad. People telling themselves otherwise wont change a thing. everyone who mains him knows it.

Still waiting on a repsonse from AA or thinkaman on my suggestion...
swap the buff from dair and uair so they do +1 and +2. and add the damage over both hits. only increasing the 2nd hit isnt that useful. Not gonna state all my reasons/arguments again for 4th time >_<

It isn't a matter of trading anything since it's not like we only have X% to give to Sonic's moves or anything like that. Sonic's dair got what it got, and we feel that it's a good fit for that move. If Sonic is underbuffed otherwise we can address him as a package which may involve tweaking uair or any other move, and of course we recognize that uair is far more valuable than dair and that 1% on uair is worth more than 2% on dair. It's largely why dair got a bigger damage buff than uair; isn't it only right for the generally less useful moves to have their own forms of advantage?

There seems to be some form of a misunderstanding. We're not haggling with balance tweaks, and they aren't a limited commodity in the first place. Of course we're conservative, but our conservatism stems from the perspective of how radical a change is moreso than some "point" system. Making a less useful move like dair even worse so we can "in exchange" buff a good move and make it even better is not the basis on which the project operates.

Our approach with Sonic right now stems from the simple question of how good Sonic is right now. If the answer is "not very good", which we really believe can only be answered by playtesting, then that's fine. We will then look at where Sonic is underperforming and how to bring him up to standard while maintaining his overall design.

I think it's a point of common confusion that when we buff bad moves we don't understand the characters. It's incredibly obvious to both of us that in standard Brawl moves like Sonic dair and Mario dtilt are bad. It may be that buffing a move like that gives a character a very valuable tool. It may be that the move is still bad but just less bad. It's fine either way; after all, a buff is something for nothing and either way should make the character at least somewhat better. That way when we need to turn the knobs up on characters by powering up their core game (things like Sonic uair), we can maybe get away with a lower dial shift. That's important since it prevents us from one-dimensionalising characters (Sonic the uair spammer?) and is far less likely to lead to polarized matchups. Of course, we're far from infallible and may turn the knobs either too far or not far enough... In those cases, we can still adjust the knobs, and in any case, it's not fair to blame the buffs to bad moves for misadjustments.

Trust me...the highest level players agree. ROB needs some way to set up a kill.

R.O.B. is a spammy character who has trouble killing but lives forever by design. He's kinda like Samus like that. Of course, if he's not good enough, that's an issue that needs to be addressed, but it's a whollistic issue. The game's diversity depends on all sorts of strengths and weaknesses being present, and in R.O.B.'s case I do strongly feel that one of his most defining attributes is "sucks at killing".

That sounds bad, but don't think we don't care about R.O.B. because of it. We're monitoring him. If he struggles (I haven't seen much evidence of him being used so far), we'll evaluate him to decide how to help him out. We may be able to make his overall game more effective to the point where he has ways to deal with the fact that he just has to work harder and wait longer to kill than the others. It may be that his killing problem is just too severe to overcome without polarizing his matchups and we have to address it, but knowing where in particular R.O.B. struggles now (assuming he does; he does have the benefit of fewer MK worries already on the table!) is what we need to be guided where to go.

Just wanted to say that this project is pretty awesome. I wish that some of these changes would be implemented in Brawl+ instead of the dozens of frame speed mods that are used. I in particular love the way Link's arrows work now. They are beastly.

Since it seems like there wasn't that much change to the balance, if you ever feel like Metaknight is still too good, I would recommend the speed mod (despite what I said earlier) to make his d-smash have more cool down lag. d-smash against shield into another d-smash against shield is so dumb. In return, you could give some oomph back into the strength of d-smash. Another possibly to look into is changing weight values of certain characters.

I think the balance changed more than you may be giving it credit for. On the surface the characters feel the same and even upon inspection their playstyles are pretty similar to before, but that's by design. We feel as though there should be a pretty substantial change in actual performance, and judging by the initial popularity of Ike and Ganondorf, I have to guess at least something has changed.

As per Meta Knight's dsmash, I am not sure that's so dumb. It feels dumb in standard Brawl because it has all those advantages and is a fantastic kill move. Basically, it pressures you amazingly and is a great boon to Meta Knight when it lands. Since Meta Knight is all about relentless pressure, we felt as though it made more sense for his down smash to still be as relentless as before, just not its old and somewhat crazy self of pressuring you really well and then killing you really well when it lands. Going the other way and removing the pressure while retaining the kill power basically makes it into everyone else's down smashes and goes against Meta Knight's design.

I support what this project stands for, but I'm not convinced it actually did what it set out to do. There seem to be a large number of fundamental changes to the game's physics going on. Chaingrabs, locks to force standups, and other such things are very much a part of Brawl's gameplay and I'm reluctant to accept something as being a simple rebalancing of the game if it tries to replace fundamental issues like that.

Also, DDD's throws look absolutely ridiculous and hacky, and it sounds like Pika's are similar (I haven't played it yet). I'd much rather have a chaingrab in the game than an absurd up throw.

Anyway, thanks for all the effort.

You have somewhat of a point, but some things are just degenerate. Chainthrows make unwinnable matchups and make characters inviable by themselves as well as extremely reduce the fairness of otherwise excellent stages like Mario Circuit and Onett. I wouldn't consider anything we changed "physics" either; the characters all fall at the same speeds and move just as fast all around.

Sure some things do look a bit awkward and are generall sub-optimal, but consider the possibilities. Which is worse: King Dedede has an awkward looking pair of throws that lead to interesting gameplay or he has such a skewed matchup with Donkey Kong as to completely wreck DK as a character? I'd say introducing a few mechanics changes is less of an abandonment of principles than abandoning DK...

just came from a smashfest where we played this for like an hour or two

comments:
-Sonic is really fawkin good, his buffs fit his character really nicely it seemed(the sonic main throughly enjoyed him)

-D3's upthrow tech chase is amazing, upthrow on ledge to inhale is boderline broken cause its guranteed

-bowsers buff was decent, but it showed where grab relase stuff would have helped(or so im told)

-MK is ok, it jus takes a lil longer to get used to the idea of not killing =/
(cant say much cause it was usually vs sonic, but with sonics buffs it jus didnt seem to balance out idk may have just been me)

-pikachu is bad, alot of things were way harder to do. and killing was an issue, throws led to nothing unless they blantly didnt do anything.

-ganon and falcon are really fun and buffs fit nicely

-hyrule is still really big and and some characters can sorta camp that lil fallthrough platform on the right(i timed two matches like this, but it might be because there not used to it)

-lower blastzone on hyrule and spear pillar are BAD, my friend died from tether recovering far out with ivy (he ended up swinging to the blastzone)

there are somethings that work and somethings are just really really off, we didnt test in water stages though

First of all, thank you as this is just what is most helpful to us.

That sounds like good news on Sonic!

We think you can DI away from the stage to avoid that combo (the videos we've seen of it seem to DI into the stage which is exactly wrong DI), but to be honest uthrow -> Inhale wasn't considered in design. You really have to appreciate what Sakurai went through here; it's so easy to miss stuff like this... We're definitely both monitoring it carefully and thoroughly looking into it so the standard release will be in the best place it can be for this.

I think this design direction with Bowser will produce better results in the end. It's good to hear he's performing alright.

MK still seemed pretty good based on our internal testing, but his newfound quality does take some getting used to. If the feeling you get is "ok", I feel successful. Do note that he has a pressure trick with Shuttle Loop to glide attack, not really a combo but kinda nifty. Not having grab release issues isn't bad either. I'm saying that because it's not all bad news even for the MKs.

Pikachu is someone we are actively investigating. Feedback like this does a lot to inform us of what we need to do, thanks.

Good to hear about Ganon and C.Falcon. Given their status in standard Brawl, we knew we'd have to work really hard on them, and it's nice to see it pay off!

About Temple and Spear Pillar, do remember those were insta-ban in standard Brawl. We did the best we could for them; if it turns out to still not be enough, it's a shame but none the worse for the effort. At least MK 1-1, Onett, and Mario Circuit so far appear to be easy additions to the CP roster! Of course, given the feedback as well as some recent experiences, I'm going to be demoting the Spear Pillar stages to C/B.

PT is ridiculously buffed in this game and is obviously the best character. By far.
lol
That is all.

PROF. OAK would be proud.

More impressions...

Falco's B-Throw.
From lots of the videos that I've watched (SK92 and others), people often use the this after a pivot grab or whenever they have their back to the edge. I think this move is a great positioning move. I didn't realize how much I relied on throwing people behind me until I tried him in BBrawl. After running around for a while with computer players and following it up with quick aerials, it seems that overall, this move removes a positioning advantage. I know I'd need to play with humans to see how well it puts Falco on the offensive.
Basically, can you make it possible so that Falco's U-Throw puts the opponent in the same position as the new B-Throw, and return the B-Throw to how it was?

Link's Arrow.
I was, again, playing random computers and they drew Ice Climbers. I found that Link's new arrow did an exceptional job of hitting the trailing climber and would often gimp their recovery. I don't really play either, so I'm not sure if that'll become a big part of the matchup, but it seems like Link could throw crap to keep away from a Chain Grab pretty easily. The new arrow might throw this matchup out of whack. Just a thought.

This is a sad thing to say, but bthrow, uthrow, and dthrow are all linked on Falco. Actually, the "default" version of a changed dthrow has it shoot them up behind Falco in a really bad way. "Fixing" dthrow turns bthrow into that. On the plus side, bthrow (and uthrow) each do more damage than before if they don't DI away from the laser. The upside is that the new bthrow is pretty handy and interesting; it was actually a case of us "discovering a bad side effect" and then deciding "it's not a bug; it's a feature!".

ICs aren't really being factored in very much right now. We can't change what actually matters on them, and they're super polarizing. This is a really inadequate response, but these two are really just a thorn in our sides.

Finished playing a bunch of matches. Sorry I didn't save any of the replays (I should of, but maybe next time).

I'm kind of on the fence regarding Ganon's Wizkick. When I can actually land the kick close enough to ground my opponent, it's great. A lot of time though I would end up just out of range, resulting in my opponent being knocked away slightly, but still being capable of getting up and punishing me before I recover. It also made me miss being able to launch my opponent high up as a reward for landing the move.

Basically, aerial Wizkick only seems to be rewarding when you execute it right in their face or just happen to be in the right position to spike them to death (I don't consider the suicide spike AS rewarding). If you miss, you get punished naturally. But now if I land the move but don't ground them, I'm left open while my foe recovers sooner due to being thrown to the ground before me. I think it would be a good idea to speed up Ganon's recovery from that move by at least 1 or 2 frames. I know those frames will make him more deadly provided he lands the move, but rather that than being punished for landing a move.

I enjoy Yoshi's changes so far. Was able to ground my opponent a few times, and it does work pretty well as a pressure move. Forgot to try out the egg roll as an air brake. Damage building with pummels and other moves seemed to definitely aid me well enough. I'll definitely be playing him more.

Wasn't digging Wario's nerfs and felt a bit lacking in power. Then again it's likely 'cause I use UAir and F-Smash a lot. I likely just need more practice.

Played a bit with Peach. Didn't really get much data from her. The F-Smash is stronger, but only hit with it a couple of times. (BTW is there any reason the tennis racket wasn't buffed even a little?)

About Wolf, how does buffing his forward tilt help him work around his recovery weakness? Need to land more Fire Wolfs. I'm still kind of on the fence on Wolf's minor changes.

Samus played pretty well for how ever long I used her. Don't have too much else to say.

About Mario, why wasn't his FLUDD boosted like Squirtle's? Not even a minor increase to make it a bit better?

Speaking of Squirtle, you can definitely see the difference with Water Gun. The extra oomph really helps bolster your control over the match as it's much easier to shove the opponent around and put pressure on their approach options.

Ivysaur's changes are hard to grasp. They're definitely there. They just meld into him so well. Bullet Seed's initial hit didn't throw the opponent out of trajectory as planned. I did more damage and knockback with the intended moves. Need more time to use him against more characters, but it seems good so far.

Ike being able to recover much easier really does help his game, so that's good. My opponent and I though both agree though that Ike's F-Throw needs adjustment.. He is still well capable of performing an F-throw infinite on Corneria. I know it's only one place, but it's still quite annoying and impossible to escape as long as the opponent doesn't mess it up. I suggested its angle needed to be changed. My opponent suggested it needs to be stronger. You figure that one out.

Played a little bit of Sonic. I did manage to spring spike my foe which was nice. Didn't really get a feel for his other changes though, so I'll try playing him a bit more.


Now as for the stage changes, most of them are nice and some okay. I myself am 50/50 with the water. It got my opponent at times, and it got me at times, sometimes a bit too quickly. Definitely seek a more favorable solution. Won't say it's a bad thing though. Also for some reason I think Dreamland ran at normal speed while playing. I remember looking at it during a training mode session and seeing it move slower. Didn't though while online.




AAANND that's about it. I played other characters to, but I don't really have an opinion on them just yet.

Again, thanks for this type of data. It's what we are looking for.

Ganon Wizard's Foot in general should be tons better than its old self, but a detailed analysis is always nice.

It's good to hear Yoshi is working out. I actually just played a Yoshi on WiFi earlier and yeah, he definitely feels more dangerous...

I had some concerns like that with Wario, but we'll see. He's a difficult character to get just right, and I've heard worries from both sides of the spectrum.

Tennis racket was already the best, and an earlier version that buffed all three fsmashes by more ended up being silly... We definitely have an extra careful eye on her though.

With Wolf we really weren't trying to buff his recovery. His main gain is that a certain king and his knight aren't such a nasty impediment. The other things are just a little extra upward bump for him.

Samus was tricky and controversial internally throughout development. Hearing positive is great.

We originally had FLUDD plans, but they got scrapped and it ended up being left behind as other interests got pursued. We may buff it in the future if Mario seems to need more work, but so far Mario has turned out very positive. Just remember: Squirtle has STAB!

It sounds like you have positive PT impressions. That feeling with Ivysaur is an optimal performance on our part if that's how you feel; I consider the greatest victory when it feels the same but is much more fair regardless.

Ike fthrow is being watched for how important the wall abuse is. We could slow it down (but can't change hitbox properties easily on throws in general), but we're naturally wary of a general nerf to Ike at this point.

Spring gimps are fun.

Thanks for stage feedback. Yeah, we're looking into water, but right now our options are really limited. Let's just hope we can find something that makes everyone happy.

By Dreamland do you mean Green Greens? Either way, that's odd and doesn't match what I've seen on WiFi.

omg i cant believe you honestly thought i meant +4 to uair

i meant +2. you can remove the +damage to dtilt and dair completely and make uair only do +2 total and thats a far better option than what it is currently.

and which Sonic MAINS did you actually discuss his changes with. I find it extremely hard to believe any Sonic main who has any idea what theyre doing would honestly have suggested buffing dtilt and dair. like i said before its just the same as nerfing warios utilt instead of his fsmash and uair and calling that balanced. buff to dtilt and dair is almost completely useless. you say we *know* its a bad move. so then why didnt you buff other characters bad moves? instead you buff many of their best attacks (looks at bowser as an example)

When did I say +4 to uair? You are confusing and seem to not understand what I'm saying.

We DID buff other characters bad moves. Squirtle Water Gun, Mario dtilt, ZSS forward smash, Luigi fireballs, Luigi dash attack, Lucario non-grab Force Palm, Wolf Fire Wolf, Jigglypuff down smash, Yoshi down smash... Sometimes these ended up making bad moves good. Sometimes it was just less bad. In the case of Sonic's dair, it's less bad. His dtilt isn't bad at all now though; I'd say it's a respectable move even if hardly the center of Sonic's game. With Bowser we did buff many of his best attacks true. We also buffed his down aerial, his previous worst attack and in standard Brawl an essentially useless move. We did buff moves across the quality spectrum on Sonic too. I really don't see your point.

Link's arrows have been talked about a lot, but still no vids huh?

It's in one of those demonstrational videos that are on their way but not ready yet.

If the angle isnt increased, DIing down and teching is always the most viable option. When it used to auto kill ike I'd do this all the time. Anyway I have a few extra suggestions but mostly they revolve around snake and I think ren gave my ideas to you anyway.

Long story short is

Snake's jab combo is weak enough for it to be true combo. ZSS should be treated the same.
Snake's down tilt, due to the relatively limited hitbox, should flat out KO at 140 on a midweight character.
The claymore should probably raise in killshot viability, limiting its unintentional comboability.

Ike's front hitbox on his downsmash is worthless. If I want to hit something on frame 13 and kill with it, I'd use up tilt.

Naircide is lame

Counter is a move I would NEVER use considering the reward gained. I'd rather use eruption every time. If you cant fix its damage mod, angle, or invincibility frames, instead make its knockback truck-like.

Dedede is pretty ghodly but if you dont lower the deathline on spear pillar that's auto win on a lot of matchups.

Sheik needs a viable KO shot, I'm sorry.

Zelda is right now the worst character in the game, she has no safe on block mves and no sheild pressure tactics. Both characters should be viable on their own with minor exploitable losses, she's not poke trainer.

Wolf's shine is good but making it pop up like falco's did would probably make him much better.

I like link as he is now but increasing the vertical gain of his up B considering he has no horizontal option wouldnt be a bad idea.

Do note that ZSS (and Squirtle) have frame 1 jabs, something Snake does not have. This is extraordinarily powerful to start, and it's something that weighs heavily on our minds as we approach these characters.

Ike seems fine right now even with those poor moves. I mean, Meta Knight has Dimensional Cape, and Mr. Game & Watch has Judgment Hammer. If Ike does need help, these are the sort of places we'd logically start though.

Zelda & Sheik... are very complicated design wise. If we design them to work as individuals that not only totally defies their design but can make them really broken in the counterpick system. They are really different and shouldn't expect to do well against the same characters. Let's say each has 10 60-40 matchups, 15 50-50 matchups, and 11 40-60 matchups. However, let's say they are different such that half of the two extreme sides are switched. You end up with effectively 15 60-40, 15 50-50, and 6 40-60, a big jump and clearly above the baseline for the cast. There is a balance point where you can kinda get away with using only one without making them ridiculous. It's about where individually they are bottom tier but still viable (which is very possible in a balanced fighter) and their combined strengths raise them up.

Also, Sheik can KO with up smash if she needs to. The range makes it poor to rely on, but given that she can turn into princess KO...

We are giving them serious work for the major release, but please understand the complications this character introduces.

No doubt that would make Wolf much better, but I don't think it would really fit Wolf. I'm also not convinced he really needs help, and if he does, it's probably not much.

Changing something like that on Link would be very tricky.

I just read through all 60 pages of this thread, and I must say that I think this is a very good idea. I really like what you two are trying to do, and after a little tweaking I'm sure this will be an excellent game. I have some ideas and opinions about it so far, but I want to actually try it myself before I make any judgments on some of the changes made (as should everyone else who has criticism >_>)

I'm definitely going to try this out as soon as I can. Maybe even get a smashfest with it or something. I'll let you know my thoughts on it once that happens.

This sentiment is highly appreciated. I look forward to hearing your results.

I saw TL needed discussion, and I read back through the thread, didn't see this replied to so I'll bring this up again.

For short, I think fixing Fsmash so that the 2nd hit isn't so easy to get out of. Like there's almost no reason to use this attack in vbrawl because of that, and I explain the benefits in that quoted section.

TL's fsmash2 is a good move because of the mix-ups it gives TL when he uses fsmash1 on a shield. Still, this input has been very much considered, and Toon Link is among the middish standard Brawl characters we have on our immediate priority list (I posted an immediate character priority list a while back, not to suggest that anyone is a non-priority).

 

[stingers]

ROB is not...a spammy or campy character. Sounds like someone watches too many Overswarm videos.

ROB hasn't been campy since...a year ago. Except against Ice Climbers.

 

[Browny]

We did buff moves across the quality spectrum on Sonic too. I really don't see your point.

Thanks for a proper answer

Its just that this whole 'what would you do to balance this character' thing has been done many times before and the current changes to Sonic dont arent really what I imagined outside of the spring spike.

If you were to ask me (or any other sonic main) what to do in order to make Sonic more viable the day before you posted this, I would have said make spring spike, buff Uair, dash attack and ftilt (uair by 2 ftilt/DA by 1)and give his jab combo enough hitstun so that you can actually do things with it and not have people be able to jab you right out of it. When I saw the changelist the first time, all I think is 'what were they thinking? do they even know what Sonics attacks do?'. uair as 2 seems like a bit much but then u gotta consider how weak it was in the first place, stale moves, and how other mid tier and lower characters total %boost on moves actually used totals... i think it would even out

At any rate... I fully expect that changes will happen in the future. Unless of course the spring spike to KO isnt completely avoidable by meteor cancelling like you said :/

 

[ffdgh]

umm increase damage on pummels and knockback on his neutral or froward air?

 

[Rykoshet]

Why would you need to adjust knockback on a move that doesnt knock back?

 

[ffdgh]

XD oops that was a mistake,meant to say damage, ill edit

now that i think about it tho, doesn't it give knock back if some one in within range of the pummel XD

 

[Rykoshet]

Do note that ZSS (and Squirtle) have frame 1 jabs, something Snake does not have. This is extraordinarily powerful to start, and it's something that weighs heavily on our minds as we approach these characters.

That's fair enough, however consider the practicality of ZSS's inside game. 3 tilts and jab that does little more than get her punched back in the mouth for using it. I get that it's frame one and as a result it makes her seem incredibly potent, but the nature of those moves is to pretty much mash and clear out. Without way to do that, they feel stupid for even hitting with it, let alone attempting it. It's the same reason that even with his buffs, ganon still falls apart to the same thing he always did, if you throw moves at his face, he has nothing to respond with faster than frame 8. If you made his jab frame 4 or 5 he'd have a viable "cut it out" move and something to work with.

Ike seems fine right now even with those poor moves. I mean, Meta Knight has Dimensional Cape, and Mr. Game & Watch has Judgment Hammer. If Ike does need help, these are the sort of places we'd logically start though.

Trust me I'm of the mind that Ike right now is fine, however those moves are relatively pathetic all things considered. If someone rolls on me I'd still rather use a move that doesnt hit until nearly frame 30 to punish it.

Zelda & Sheik... are very complicated design wise. If we design them to work as individuals that not only totally defies their design but can make them really broken in the counterpick system. They are really different and shouldn't expect to do well against the same characters. Let's say each has 10 60-40 matchups, 15 50-50 matchups, and 11 40-60 matchups.

That's the thing though, it's not close to that. Sheik is the one with the closest to those matchups, zelda on the other hand is an easy 40-60 if not lower on most of the cast. The inability to deal with shielding, really laggy moves with no viable shield push, and a slow and predictable recovery makes her fall apart to the same thing against every character every time. I can call zelda's recovery spot down to the point that as marth I can tipper her straight out of farore's wind rather consistently, that's a bad recovery, and it was that way even back when all Ike really had going for him was aether, I'd still rather rely on that than FW at all. Giving sheik a secondary viable killshot will not make her matchups suddenly flip, itll do exactly what it's meant to do, give her a killshot. Princess KO only kills you if you do one of 2 things, dodge directly on top of her or otherwise put yourself directly behind her and forget how fast and low her bair comes out. Otherwise all you need to do to shut her down is hold shield. That's it.

There is a balance point where you can kinda get away with using only one without making them ridiculous. It's about where individually they are bottom tier but still viable (which is very possible in a balanced fighter) and their combined strengths raise them up.

If you don't make the individual halves mid tierish at worst you're going to have a really bad character on your hands. The game is already at the point where everyone realizes that sheik is still far better than zelda is. The allure of Zelda died out quite some time ago and she's by far one of the easiest characters to pick apart. Considering that every character worse than her got some sort of viable to amazing change, she's easily sitting right near the bottom if not exactly there.

No doubt that would make Wolf much better, but I don't think it would really fit Wolf. I'm also not convinced he really needs help, and if he does, it's probably not much.

The character is already passable, that much is true, but all things considered the move popping up wouldn't necessarily be bad for the character or unfit. Wolf's shine as it is is more of a defensive maneuver than an offensive one, the ability to gain some ground with it though would be very worthwhile.

Changing something like that on Link would be very tricky.

Understandable, but keep in mind that all the killshots in the world doesn't change a piss poor recovery, that's why ike was so bad in the first place.

 

[MysticKenji]

Finished playing a bunch of matches. Sorry I didn't save any of the replays (I should of, but maybe next time).

I got them, I'm uploading a few this morning.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

If you made his jab frame 4 or 5 he'd have a viable "cut it out" move and something to work with.

Why doesnt anyone be the oddman out and say...N-air.
Its always jab this...why because other characters jabs are gtfo moves?
Pfft Ganondorf doesnt follow trends.
Anywho im not saying that their should be frame changes....just found the whole change his jab thing so overused >.<

That's the thing though, it's not close to that. Sheik is the one with the closest to those matchups, zelda on the other hand is an easy 40-60 if not lower on most of the cast. The inability to deal with shielding, really laggy moves with no viable shield push, and a slow and predictable recovery makes her fall apart to the same thing against every character every time. I can call zelda's recovery spot down to the point that as marth I can tipper her straight out of farore's wind rather consistently, that's a bad recovery, and it was that way even back when all Ike really had going for him was aether, I'd still rather rely on that than FW at all. Giving sheik a secondary viable killshot will not make her matchups suddenly flip, itll do exactly what it's meant to do, give her a killshot. Princess KO only kills you if you do one of 2 things, dodge directly on top of her or otherwise put yourself directly behind her and forget how fast and low her bair comes out. Otherwise all you need to do to shut her down is hold shield. That's it.

So Zelda needs change instead of Sheik then.
You just said Zelda has more issues yet you want to give sheik a KO move >.<
If they are designed as a pair, then buffing Sheik when you think Zelda's weak isn't the correct attitude.

Earnestly Pokemon Trainer is in the same boat, only he is split in three.
I see that Sheik should have a bit more variety than Zelda, however it shouldn't be a sheik solo mentality. If someone chooses to solo as Sheik they should realize they're only using half the concept, and if they are aware of that, fine, but they shouldn't expect it to be an easy ride.

However excuse me if I interpreted you wrong.

Understandable, but keep in mind that all the killshots in the world doesn't change a piss poor recovery, that's why ike was so bad in the first place.

*cough* *hack* *wheeze* Bomb Jump! *Wheeze* *hack* *cough*
Sorry cought the nostalgia bug of days when Link's pissy recovery could be......improved by pwning yourself with a bomb.

======

Anyways Yoshi question.
Any Egg lay thing happening?
I may be the odd man out, but I didn't find the Down B thing necessary, it's nice but eh.
Out of all his specials it was egg roll and egg lay that saw least use, and I see these in other peoples playing vids as well so I know it's not just me.
Egg roll got a buff so that it can have another use but Egg lay...

 

[TreK]

I don't have time to give detailed responses to assorted posts now for one reason and one reason only, a reason I doubt many will complained about. I am starting work on a PAL version by comparing the implementation of the codes between Brawl+ NTSC and Brawl+ PAL. Willing testers with PAL Wiis will be needed (given that Thinkaman and I are both a part of Missouri smash, we don't exactly have PAL Wiis), and it is likely not going to be a 100% complete version.

I'll post again when it's done.

I could test =]
But I don't know anything about hacking, so I could only test, unfortunately

 

[Circa]

Anyways Yoshi question.
Any Egg lay thing happening?
I may be the odd man out, but I didn't find the Down B thing necessary, it's nice but eh.
Out of all his specials it was egg roll and egg lay that saw least use, and I see these in other peoples playing vids as well so I know it's not just me.
Egg roll got a buff so that it can have another use but Egg lay...

I believe they mentioned this earlier in the thread (I know I'm not AA or Thinkaman, so they can correct me if I'm wrong) that the reason why they haven't changed Egg Lay is because it was nearly impossible to change at this time (or at least in a way that would help, such as dropping the egg lower). As for what that meant, I'm not entirely sure. I think it just has something to do with finding the appropriate coding?

EDIT: Nvm the research...I won't be able to do any productive testing until my next tournament; two weeks from now. :\

 

[Thinkaman]

Yeah, Egg Lay is unchangeable. A real shame, really.

So, Bowser still has grab release options, but theyre just not gaurenteed? Ok, I can live with that..

But, I thought of something for you guys to test...that may be broken for boozer (and possibly charizard):

Pick a water lvl, damage your opponent a bit, toss them in water, CAMP WITH FIRE BREATH.

just tossing it out that the fire breath ability on a swimming opponent keeps them pressured there if your angle it right, while racking nice damage, at the magic %, instant KO

We're aware of how good this is; Bowser's dair is also very scary with water. We're keeping a close eye in general on the entire watter situation, make no mistake.

Ok, I see. Hopefully.

The thing is at higher percentages she really lacks a vaible killer. Having it a low initial knockback but high growth would allow her to actually kill with something.

But if you realize that Shiek needs a buff instead of an exchange, how about bair?

Bair is certainly a move worth considering a buff for, probably a damage buff. (Which slightly helps its kill potential, we wouldn't apply knockback compensation.)

I just want to throw it out there that in normal Brawl, Lucario's bad matchups are anybody that has offstage pressuring.

Like DJBrowny said about Sonic's buffs, buffing Lucario's Force Palm Flame is a definite "wtf?"

If anything, perhaps a 1% hitbox when Extreme Speed collides and sends him into freefall? Just a flinch; this way it doesn't help on-stage game much; just recovery. Invincibility during startup is a must, as well. There's far too much time for the opponent to just go "No."

As for Link's recovery, is it possible to make Down+B shorten a bomb's lifespan instead of toss (when holding)? I think the bombs are the key to making his recovery better. They need to be slightly fiddled with.

Sorry, these changes aren't really possible. We can't add hitboxes or reprogram the way bombs works.

I saw TL needed discussion, and I read back through the thread, didn't see this replied to so I'll bring this up again.

For short, I think fixing Fsmash so that the 2nd hit isn't so easy to get out of. Like there's almost no reason to use this attack in vbrawl because of that, and I explain the benefits in that quoted section.

It's certainly one of the foremost options on the table. We still need to make sure where Toon Link's matchups stand and determine that something like this would help him balance his matchups. That said, Toon Link is a fairly balanced character and this is a fairly balanced change, so personally I think this has a good chance of being the right way to go. We'll see; matchup data is king, though, as always.

ROB is not...a spammy or campy character. Sounds like someone watches too many Overswarm videos.

ROB hasn't been campy since...a year ago. Except against Ice Climbers.

OS is still the best laser and gyro ROB main I've played, so we're totally welcome to input from the larger ROB community. Again, matchup data on where ROB stands in the changed metagame is required for any educated decision on what to do with him.

I will say though, that I'm not too keen on buffing ROB's KO power any more than I want to buff Olimar's recovery, Jigglypuff's weight, Ganondorf's speed, or any other character-defining weaknesses. We will give ROB his duly deserved attention and make sure his strengths are not overshadowed by this weakness. The most useful thing anyone can do for ROB is help us understand his changed matchups.

That's fair enough, however consider the practicality of ZSS's inside game. 3 tilts and jab that does little more than get her punched back in the mouth for using it. I get that it's frame one and as a result it makes her seem incredibly potent, but the nature of those moves is to pretty much mash and clear out. Without way to do that, they feel stupid for even hitting with it, let alone attempting it. It's the same reason that even with his buffs, ganon still falls apart to the same thing he always did, if you throw moves at his face, he has nothing to respond with faster than frame 8. If you made his jab frame 4 or 5 he'd have a viable "cut it out" move and something to work with.

The ZSS jab change is not unreasonable, but we still need firm matchup decisions to make a right call. Let me elaborate.

For example, the ZSS mains have provided excellent discussion and provided great matchup impressions. I really need to highlight their effort. Anyway, their data stressed that ZSS struggles with the likes of space animals and Pit; she can't jump over/through/past the projectile spam like most characters because she is extremely limited in attacking below her. Jabs are great and would probably help her in most matchups, but would probably not have as big of an impact in these matchups where she has problems getting in in the first place. It might turn out that a revolutionized dair would help ZSS more, even if it would require taboo timing changes to fulfill this roll.

We will continue watching ZSS as well as everyone else as we work towards future version(s).

Trust me I'm of the mind that Ike right now is fine, however those moves are relatively pathetic all things considered. If someone rolls on me I'd still rather use a move that doesnt hit until nearly frame 30 to punish it.

We hear you loud and clear. Honestly, this is pure speculation on my part, but I think an improved d-smash might prove effective in matchups that might turn out to be problems for Ike. We'll see how his matchups develop though.

That's the thing though, it's not close to that. Sheik is the one with the closest to those matchups, zelda on the other hand is an easy 40-60 if not lower on most of the cast. The inability to deal with shielding, really laggy moves with no viable shield push, and a slow and predictable recovery makes her fall apart to the same thing against every character every time. I can call zelda's recovery spot down to the point that as marth I can tipper her straight out of farore's wind rather consistently, that's a bad recovery, and it was that way even back when all Ike really had going for him was aether, I'd still rather rely on that than FW at all. Giving sheik a secondary viable killshot will not make her matchups suddenly flip, itll do exactly what it's meant to do, give her a killshot. Princess KO only kills you if you do one of 2 things, dodge directly on top of her or otherwise put yourself directly behind her and forget how fast and low her bair comes out. Otherwise all you need to do to shut her down is hold shield. That's it.

If you don't make the individual halves mid tierish at worst you're going to have a really bad character on your hands. The game is already at the point where everyone realizes that sheik is still far better than zelda is. The allure of Zelda died out quite some time ago and she's by far one of the easiest characters to pick apart. Considering that every character worse than her got some sort of viable to amazing change, she's easily sitting right near the bottom if not exactly there.

Don't get us wrong, I think everyone is misunderstanding our position on Sheik/Zelda.

We don't want to make either unviable to solo, and the changes we make to them will reflect this. When we say we intend them to be worse than the average character, we don't mean by a crippling degree. If the other characters are all raised to "Marth level", I personally would be happy to see Sheik and Zelda (solo) being raised to about Kirby level. Meanwhile, I personally would like to see Sheik and Zelda used together to be perhaps "Wario level", better than the average character.

That's just a rough goal. What we have to do to get there is complicated, and demands very solid matchup data, even more than other characters we are investigating.

The character is already passable, that much is true, but all things considered the move popping up wouldn't necessarily be bad for the character or unfit. Wolf's shine as it is is more of a defensive maneuver than an offensive one, the ability to gain some ground with it though would be very worthwhile.

We'll keep shine in mind as something worth looking at as we get Wolf data. There are many problems that could arise for Wolf that various shine improvements might address, so we'll see.

So Zelda needs change instead of Sheik then.
You just said Zelda has more issues yet you want to give sheik a KO move >.<
If they are designed as a pair, then buffing Sheik when you think Zelda's weak isn't the correct attitude.

Earnestly Pokemon Trainer is in the same boat, only he is split in three.
I see that Sheik should have a bit more variety than Zelda, however it shouldn't be a sheik solo mentality. If someone chooses to solo as Sheik they should realize they're only using half the concept, and if they are aware of that, fine, but they shouldn't expect it to be an easy ride.

However excuse me if I interpreted you wrong.

Right. Sheik and Zelda as solo characters should be plenty viable, but as limited as say a Snake who refused to use u-tilt, or a Wario who refused to fart. Not a fundamentally flawed character, that isn't our goal. However, we are of the shared opinion that going to the trouble to learn two entire character and using them effectively together should give you an intrinsic advantage over other characters. Personally, I have zero problem with Pokemon Trainer and Zelda+Sheik being the top two characters. (By an appropriately small margin of course.)

All this philosophy is good, since it is important to have a clearly intended goal, but the most important thing would be for us to discuss Sheik's and Zelda's (and Sheik+Zelda's) matchups. We all agree they need change.

 

[Rykoshet]

Why doesnt anyone be the oddman out and say...N-air. Its always jab this...why because other characters jabs are gtfo moves?
Pfft Ganondorf doesnt follow trends.
Anywho im not saying that their should be frame changes....just found the whole change his jab thing so overused >.<

Because it typically takes people 7 frames to jump and ganondorf's entire playstyle is heavily ground based. Not every character has a jab to interrupt stupid crap, hell some people use B moves to do it (snake, bowser, marth), but unless you plan on making wizard's foot have super armor on startup it makes the most sense to give ganon's one hit punch stopping power.

So Zelda needs change instead of Sheik then. You just said Zelda has more issues yet you want to give sheik a KO move >.<
If they are designed as a pair, then buffing Sheik when you think Zelda's weak isn't the correct attitude.

They both need changes but I already suggested the things that would make zelda formidable, and they totaled to much more than just one extra thing for sheik. I was just defending the idea that sheik needs at least one more viable killshot.

Earnestly Pokemon Trainer is in the same boat, only he is split in three.
I see that Sheik should have a bit more variety than Zelda, however it shouldn't be a sheik solo mentality. If someone chooses to solo as Sheik they should realize they're only using half the concept, and if they are aware of that, fine, but they shouldn't expect it to be an easy ride.

Let me put it this way.
As of now there's no reason to switch to zelda except to KO.
But she's terrible at approaching, she's terrible at trapping, she's piss poor at pressuring and she's downright pathetisad at setting people up except for her down tilt. The best she has going for her is that her moves can eat through a weakened shield but anyone smart enough will just run away and then she's back at square one. She pseudo camps but rule one of brawl is "you cant camp a character that's faster than you", that's why she's so terribly bad at it (slow slow slow ground movement speed and no way to cover an approach with something like an din's fire due to the deadfall frames that come from using it) and characters with NO projectiles do it far better than her. As it stands the duality is still like melee was with the difference being far smaller, but zelda still sucks terribly.

*cough* *hack* *wheeze* Bomb Jump! *Wheeze* *hack* *cough*
Sorry cought the nostalgia bug of days when Link's pissy recovery could be......improved by pwning yourself with a bomb.

Why not really? He's heavy enough to make it viable.

 

[NintenJoe]

The talk of making Link's recovery better needs to stop. The new arrows he received in his very generous buff are **** enough. Link's recovery is his glaring weakness. Always has been, always will be. Minor buffs may be considered, but his recovery is staying that way. Period.

I must agree with Ryko on the whole Zelda + Sheik issue. Zelda sucks terribly. I play Sheik as a secondary and I really think that B-Down is legitimately her worst move in vBrawl, just as it was in Melee. Buffing Zelda's Nair and Dsmash are definately not enough to make her a viable character. Zelda has very limited approach options, limited camping abilities, terrible and situational aerials save Nair and Uair, crappy recovery, etc. If you want me to switch to her in BBrawl, make her viable. Otherwise, I'll stick with Sheik for killing power. Right now its really not worth all the BS just to get a KO.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I am just going to throw out that when I said bottom tier, I meant relative to the rebalanced cast, not standard Brawl. Bottom tier in this could very well be similar to mid tier in standard Brawl.

The statement there is that with every other character, I'd consider it a failure if they were worse than an individual component of Zelda & Sheik. Granted, they shouldn't be a lot better, but being worse than just one of them and not having a second character to transform into is bad balance.

Yes, Zelda is getting special attention. We just want to approach her with kid gloves since among bad players she's really broken.

I'm off for a few days after this post unless something dramatic happens in about the next 10 minutes.

 

[Rykoshet]

The talk of making Link's recovery better needs to stop. The new arrows he received in his very generous buff are **** enough. Link's recovery is his glaring weakness. Always has been, always will be. Minor buffs may be considered, but his recovery is staying that way. Period.

The suggestion of bomb jumping is not really unreasonable when you consider that snake essentially got the exact same thing and is still far and away a much better character.

 

[NintenJoe]

The suggestion of bomb jumping is not really unreasonable when you consider that snake essentially got the exact same thing and is still far and away a much better character.

Unfortunately...

Sorry, these changes aren't really possible. We can't add hitboxes or reprogram the way bombs works.

 

[Rykoshet]

Ah, ****, my bad for missing it.

 

[Thinkaman]

The talk of making Link's recovery better needs to stop. The new arrows he received in his very generous buff are **** enough. Link's recovery is his glaring weakness. Always has been, always will be. Minor buffs may be considered, but his recovery is staying that way. Period.

The suggestion of bomb jumping is not really unreasonable when you consider that snake essentially got the exact same thing and is still far and away a much better character.

Discussion is okay, but at the moment Link seems on course to end up very close to where he needs to be. Link 's projectiles let him tend towards the middle of the stage, and the arrows only reinforce this; he can be almost as as defensive as Olimar and Ivysaur. Also, Link can benefit from newly viable stages like Onett and Mushroomy Kingdom. And if Bridge of Eldin is legal, only Olimar and Falco are more scary there. (He also really like's Wi-Fi! Link dittos there are crazy!)

I want to throw in another pitch for Mushroomy Kingdom (1-1). I thought Ampharos was nuts when he said that it could be made into a good stage, since I considered it one of the very worst. But sure enough, a little wider blastzones and a little slower speed made it into "Rainbow Cruise for ground characters". It is not one of my most favorite counter-pick stages, even if it isn't good for most of my characters and I'd rarely be picking it myself. For those who haven't, please give it an honest shot. You might be surprised like I was.

I must agree with Ryko on the whole Zelda + Sheik issue. Zelda sucks terribly. I play Sheik as a secondary and I really think that B-Down is legitimately her worst move in vBrawl, just as it was in Melee. Buffing Zelda's Nair and Dsmash are definately not enough to make her a viable character. Zelda has very limited approach options, limited camping abilities, terrible and situational aerials save Nair and Uair, crappy recovery, etc. If you want me to switch to her in BBrawl, make her viable. Otherwise, I'll stick with Sheik for killing power. Right now its really not worth all the BS just to get a KO.

Right, we totally understand where Zelda (and Sheik) are coming from. Once we figure out the metagame around them, we can figure out what to do.

Ampharos was right about Zelda in another way; Zelda gets better with worse players. It will be tricky to balance her for high-level play, so we are approaching her cautiously. Don't think she is being ignored though.

 

[Rykoshet]

I'm in love with mushroomy kingdom tbh. It's like a ground based character's rainbow cruise. (Which I now just read) Playing as snake or even ike there is a blast.

As for characters being better against worse players, I understand you're trying to cater it to a lot of people but you shouldnt consider the low end tbh. Against bad players Ike is a monster but against good ones he's still average (which is fine, I like where he is).

 

[Tommy_G]

I think the only thing you need to make Zelda good is to make the transformation go by a lot quicker, about as quick as it transforms when you press pause without the pausing. By doing that, it makes it a lot easier to switch from the two and people will do it more often. Zelda will also be able to refresh her moves by transforming, which is also a huge buff seeing that she uses the same moves a lot.

 

[Adapt]

The ZSS jab change is not unreasonable, but we still need firm matchup decisions to make a right call. Let me elaborate.

For example, the ZSS mains have provided excellent discussion and provided great matchup impressions. I really need to highlight their effort. Anyway, their data stressed that ZSS struggles with the likes of space animals and Pit; she can't jump over/through/past the projectile spam like most characters because she is extremely limited in attacking below her. Jabs are great and would probably help her in most matchups, but would probably not have as big of an impact in these matchups where she has problems getting in in the first place. It might turn out that a revolutionized dair would help ZSS more, even if it would require taboo timing changes to fulfill this roll.

We will continue watching ZSS as well as everyone else as we work towards future version(s).

I'd like to point out that the Jab will help ZSS in those matches, quite a bit imo.

The problem imo (maybe SFP will disagree, but meh) is not that we can't avoid the projectile spam, the problem is that we don't have anything we can do once we have gotten through it. Our aerial approaches are ok, but projectile spam forces ZSS to approach in very predictable patterns. Whenever we try to get in close enough to hit them our opponent can be ready for us. We are in trouble in mid-range where we normally shine because projectiles are faster than our mid-range options. And if we go in too close we will get wrecked because once we get there we have nothing to hit them with before we get owned.

Giving her a jab that will not mean a guaranteed shieldgrab in return would give ZSS possibilities to go in and create an opening.


A Dair that could actually be used without getting smashed in response might also help quite a bit, but if you ask any ZSS main, I bet they would rather have the jab change.

 

[Bouse]

To be honest Thinkman, if you seriously want Zero Suit Samus to be able to beat spacies changing her Dair to have pushback on the landing frame would be decent. However, I honestly believe that the jab change will give her a "combo-break" on the stage as well as viable damage build-up.

The one thing continually brought up is that ZSS can't deal with the spams of Falco/Pit. This is entirely true, but the only way you're going to make it so that she can approach them quicker/easier would be if you reduce the start-up of her Side+B. You can't screw with the end lag for fear of ruining her spacing game to compensate so I'd say reduce the damage and knockback a smidge and give her a slight frame advantage so that her other match-ups aren't changed too heavily. This would also make your Fsmash change make sense because it would turn it into the Dsmash->Fsmash KO, making it so that a used Side+B would actually be an ineffective KO (not the fresh version mind you) at the higher percents. Obviously her Bair will still be the favorite to win for KO-ing people, but if we have more viable damage build-up and KO options i.e. SUPER SILLY FSMASH CHANGE we might see ZSS' using Bair as damage build-up instead of pure KO.

Which brings me onto my next point with ZSS. Forward Air. Make it so it'll generally connect with the second hit with minimal knockback on the first kick (I know it's minimal now... make it minute... invisible... Chevy Chase). It'll make it a better KO move since we won't have to worry about hitting with the second part of the attack instead of the first.

 

[Pierce7d]

Rykoshet speaks too much truth about Zelda. Hell, I've long considered Zelda to be bottom tier, and I don't realize wtf SBR is thinking even considering that Zelda is better than Mario. Umbra and I spent a reasonable amount of time discussing Zelda in vBrawl before, and we both think Zelda belongs right underneath Jigglypuff in vBrawl. She really has nothing going for her, but the very simple change of Din's not making her go into falling (this really bolsters her recovery, which is a polarizing flaw) fixes her similarly to how you fixed Ike. +2 to last hit of Nyrau's, +2 to disappearing and reappearing Farore's, and +2 to utilt and uair to define them as **** kill moves really help define Zelda as a lightweight power character, which she is supposed to be. To me, I see Zelda as being a power character with a lot of multihit moves but light and poor recovery. This subtracts from poor recovery just enough to make her playable because Din's really does help you recover, but of course it's not the end all of recoveries in the first place. Now, she deals significant damage on more hits, and Utilt becomes a more powerful K.O. move. Oh, I guess I'd add +1 on the end of Jab. Zelda really should function as a lightweight, multihit vBrawl Ganon.

That being said, I'd like to say that I just read every post in this thread (mind you it was 6 in the morning when I stopped and took a nap, resuming at 10)

Just from what I've seen, THE WATER IS BAD. I understand you can't mess with water too much, but I think I'd much prefer the old water mechanic, and leave Pirate Ship banned (as it has too many other things I don't like about it anyway.) IMO Delfino is the most brilliantly designed stage in all the smash games, and this messes with it. Pirate ship just isn't that important IMO.

After reading through the changes, etc, I'd like to say that making Ganon's DownB always spike may be a nerf. Instead, just increase the damage on the aerial version by 1%. Ganon already had a brilliant epic spike, and I really relied on getting K.O.s at amazing percents with aerial wizkick (yes I play a little Ganon)

I also was generally able to connect a few dtilts in a really nice trap, but seeing as everyone else likes this new dtilt, and it actually makes Ganon viable, I'll agree with it for now. What does +2 to Dair do for the hitstun of the move?

Pikachu and Shiek should just have +1 to like the majority of their core attacks. This makes them reasonably good as the fast damage racking characters they are suppose to be.

I approve of Sonics buffs, but he also needs +1 to ftilt and Bair. The slight boost to Bair helps his killing issue, without removing the weakness.

I really haven't seen enough Link to make an opinion, which sucks because I actually play Link.

Is it possible to decrease the charge time on Mario's FLUDD? While I enjoyed using sourspot Fair to land K.O.s, I really do approve of this new Fair, and while dtilt seems to just be a variation of utilt, it seems to work, especially because dtilt can shield stab. Let me get +1 on the final hit of the Dair, and faster FLUDD charge, and that's all I'll ask for Mario. I already think he's mid-tier in vBrawl, but this isn't the place to talk about that.

All in all, I never really liked other versions of hacked Brawl, and I greatly approve of this one. It has a good feel to it, and nearly everyone seems to like it. When you've got me and Ryko interested in a hacked version of Brawl, you already know that you're doing something right.

Oh, and I watch Umbra's Yoshi in vBrawl. With these changes, Yoshi is going to be legit. I don't think people understand that Yoshi is one of the heaviest characters in the game, and with this, he's going to live to like 200% every stock. I really like this, because he's defined as a speed heavyweight camper, the inverse of melee Falcon. It's a very unique path that gives Yoshi a very distinct strategy and personality. I would add +1 to the last hit of Bair though, and maybe to the last hit of jab, which is already a reasonable option from Yoshi's shield drop. He's weak against cross-ups, but I don't find that this weakness is a bad thing at all.

Just reading this, you've already done an amazing job balancing, and with the potential exception of D3, Wario, and PT, this game seems like it's already way more balanced than Brawl.

I'm gonna chat about Marth for a bit, since I main him.

I'm sad because Marth is exactly the same, and I have to deal with stuff from other characters. Still, I don't think this is unfair. With R.O.B. receiving no buffs, that match-up stays the same. By the looks of it, Marth's worst match-ups are now D3, Bowser, and Ivysuar. Wolf, R.O.B., DK, MK, Wario, PT, and Snake are potentially neutral now. Marth still ***** most of the characters he previously *****, so their slight buffs will help, but the fundamentals of the match shouldn't alter too much, and I'll have fun competing against characters that stand more of a chance. I wouldn't mind a +1 to Dair on Marth.

If MK actually has difficulty killing Marth, he's going to be in for the fight of his life and **** will be epic. Surprisingly, despite the nature of Marth's recovery, Marth's sword allows him to combat MK in the air, and he doesn't get gimped as easily as one might predict (hell, M2k has lots of trouble edgeguarding me). Not having to dance around broken glass trying to get K.O.ed by a stupid SL or Dsmash when I swear I DIed as some ****** percent really makes this match playable. Not having to worry about Tornado as much is the icing on the cake.

Marth not worrying about Snake's Utilt ****** him so early also nerfs this really dumb match-up, but it's still fair, because ftilt is just really dumb, and Snake's aren't using Uair correctly vs. Marth. Marth's other match-ups where deemed to be mostly within the 60-40 range, and the characters that he flat out ***** should've been bolstered enough to not get demolished anymore. Marth probably serves nearly the exact same function, so he's probably perfect. Like I said, a nice little +1 on the Dair would make my day. Not a widely used move, but this will have it's usages, and slightly bolster the meteor potential on it, and allow it to kill just a little eariler.

EDIT: Oh, and about ZSS . . . first of all, this is already a very good character. I do realize that spacies may neutralize her now.

A lot of people have been pushing to make the full jab connect. I disagree with this. As a frame one option, it's could become too powerful, unless the whole jab is nerfed. I think making the third hit jab +5 but shieldable will punish the opponent for messing up, without overpowering ZSS. Furthermore, the +1-2 to Nair is a fabulous suggestion, since this move evades decay, and has significant hitstun already. It's emerging as a new part of the ZSS metagame, and this could be the icing on the cake.

Lastly, since we're so interested in buffing fsmash, and we're trying to deal with Spacies all at the same time, just give the thing reflector properties. It fits, since the characters with good projectiles all seem to have reflectors anyway, and it will be similar to Ness and Lucas. The hitbox covers a wide area, including a little behind ZSS, and this is potentially an excellent way to punish lasers. If this modifier can be adjusted, I think you'll find you've done a lot for ZSS with a subtle, non-game breaking change. She'll still find bad match-ups in Marth, MK, and potentially some of these other characters.

 

[Rykoshet]

IMO Delfino is the most brilliantly designed stage in all the smash games, and this messes with it.

I think this is what kinda gets me the most. Delfino went from Ike's best counterpick to easily one of his worst.

 

[ffdgh]

make some stages go in reverse or remove swimming?
like bowser's final smash?

 

[Adapt]

Oh yeah, I forgot to add my input on Sheik

I like the dtilt change, but she needs to be able to rack more damage. I wish you could change throws, because modifying her throws to allow for followups would be sexy.

I have come up with some suggestions:
- Make her pummel do more damage (+1%)
- Utilt does more damage (+2)
- Increase the angle of dtilt again to send the opponent behind her, (maybe +1 damage)*
- Chain does more damage maybe?

*right now I think certain characters can dair her after she dtilts at low percentage. (I'll try and confirm this)

 

[Ken Neth]

My opinion on the water thing, from what I've seen, is that the changes are somewhat ridiculous. I would rather just have pirate ship banned than having the water on all the stages be pretty much an instant death.

That's just from what I've seen/read though. I'll definitely try it out once I get it.