Balanced Brawl Public Preview *GENESIS UPDATE*

[Pierce7d]

The Yoshi bomb has stars that prevent Yoshi from being assaulted by grounded opponents, much akin to the stars that DDD has after his UpB recovery. On the other hand, I think it's the second most predictable behind Kirby's rock, but Kirby can live when he rocks off the stage. The buff sounds like a good idea, but the stars were buffed a little too. IDK I don't play Yoshi but it sounds like the move should have a little bit more of a reward.

I think the star buff is pretty solid, but I really want this move to kill. I don't want it to be a useless move that punishes you more if you **** up the punish, I want it to be a viable move in terms of risk v. reward. The buff doesn't even apply when you cancel into the ledge. Also, Bowser Bomb has a slight rise on start-up which can cause you to whiff a well spaced aerial. It's very good. It also sweetspots the ledge.

As far as "How important is the down B?" It's a mindgame move. I've seen good opponent's dodge and punish with this, catching clutch victories and just being cool, but not spammed every match. I don't want to make the move either more or less predictable in this regard, simply to grant higher reward for success in using it, especially since it's a viable option to replace shielding as it can be used to avoid and counter attacks.

Before I can really talk about match-ups more, I need to know who Yoshi really suffers against. I know I wreck Yoshi with Mario and Marth, and both of these characters have problems killing, while Yoshi now lives longer, so I can see those match-ups leveling out. Who else flattens Yoshi?

I can only imagine that MK still ***** the hell out of Link 70-30 even with MK's nerfs and Link's new arrows. MK is still too fast and Link really shouldn't be frequently connecting with his buffed moves. Even though he can K.O. MK early, he has no way of setting up said kill move. I'm just theory fighting in my head, but I'm just seeing Nado through arrows, ignoring bombs with speed. Powershielding Boomerang, and then grab -> combo -> gimp. Swish, boom, bang, same routine.

I think Luigi is probably nearly perfect now. I frequently bashed on his projectile as the worst in the game. Now it's creditable, which is exactly the type of buff Luigi was looking for. He's still got a really good air game, he's got a now upgraded approach (and downB was already good), and he's got that jab of doom. I like what you've done here.

I'm really excited to see what the new dtilt, Fair, and +1 on every fireball does with Mario. What I'm MOST enthusiastic to see is if the fireballs give even the slightest bit more hitstun, because it will make my combos from them more seemless. It didn't quite give me the dsmash on the hit, and ftilt was only 60% reliable, with jab being the boring but best option. Fball to dsmash could be sex though. Also, watching that video of Mario spiking Bowser to death through the water made me stop missing my sour spot. This move could already combo at some percents on some characters (very difficult, and primarily into UpB) so I'm really enthusicatic about this. Mario + MORE combo potential = WIN.

Protip: Try using rock to punish air-dodging toward the stage when you jump out to edgeguard opponent's recovering from high and they are expecting Bair. K.O.s STUPID early. You have to predict the airdodge, but it's not hard to bait. It's also good against opponent's DIed incorrectly and are forced to recover through a certain point (Marth, Lucario, Fox, Falco, Wolf, etc)

 

[Pierce7d]

Steeler, your sig is insane.

I just did some slow-mo tests with Zelda, to imagine how some changes might help her. Also, I don't know what I was thinking, she is still going to suck for DDD; she has one of the longest tech rolls, not shortest, I'm stupid. Regrabbing her out of d-throw is often impossible.

I think changing the angle on u-tilt to be more vertical and thus kill sooner would be helpful, and marginally preferred to just increasing knockback. I'll need to look at the hitboxes this move has though.

F-tilt I have mixed feelings about. Do we want to make it better at killing, or more consistent in setting up other things? I would not be opposed to making this Zelda's "game changer" by speeding up the ending lag so it is safe on block and has doesn't kill but leads to good followups.

Nayru's love is the only other move I would be comfortable with changing timing (ending lag) on. It just doesn't seem viable in a lot of matchups. Angle/setup cahgnes are also worth looking at.

D-tilt is fine. No, we can't change trip ratios.

Jab will probably be unchanged. Early on I did an experiment where Zelda had 1% jab hits that put a flower on the opponent's head. It was cute and looked natural, but the extra damage started to encroach on Sheik's turf a tiny bit. A 1% jab alone might be a good idea though, sicne it does less damage but MIGHT lead to immediate followups. (2% jab hits too far away, and I don't want to leave the damage but nerf the knockback.)

I think f-smash should be harder to DI out of. U-smash is fine. D-smash might get that higher angle but is otherwise good.

Fair and bair have little reason to be changed. Uair does it's job too. Dair needs to be investigated. Nair is sort of a black sheep imo. How does it fit into Zelda's high level playstyle?

That suggestion for ftilt is actually what I originally thought. My sister often catches my MARTH with this move, and I'm like "wtf is with the range on that" but I can never seem to land it when I emulate her, so I've really come to appreciate it. Making it set up even better is actually my number 1 preferred choice of mods, and I meant to suggest it, but I figured that simply buffing the utilt is more true to Zelda's power stat. In retrospect though, having dtilt set up for some stuff, being weak but quick, and ftilt set up into other stuff, being stronger and more ranged, really does fit into Zelda's stream.

I think the flowering idea is really cute. It's a good way to use an underused mechanic. Can this be added to Ike's counter. I think it's a rather odd mechanic for someone as manly as Ike, but at least helps to balance this abyssmal move, and works towards balancing the game. Besides, Easter Eggs are win.

Like I said before, just add damage to the last hit of Nyaru's. You don't need to make it safer, it's a reflector and has invincibility frames. Just make it cater more to the risk v reward theme by giving it more of a reward.

Nair is amazing. It's Zelda's most reliable aerial and lots of stuff sets of for it. On top of auto-cancelling (IIRC), it's pretty good. I recommend a plus 2 to the last hit.

Don't worry about Zelda trodding on Shiek. Zelda will need a LOT of improvement if you want her to have a 60-40 match-up with Marth, lmao.

 

[CloneHat]

Speaking of Link buffs, why did you buff his SECOND hit so much? First only combos into it at like 0%, and maybe not even seeing as the hitstun is still the same. When are you going to be able to hit enemies with the second hit?

 

[Pierce7d]

I do it all the time. It's called SPOT DODGE, also known as SIDE STEP.

 

[Thinkaman]

That suggestion for ftilt is actually what I originally thought. My sister often catches my MARTH with this move, and I'm like "wtf is with the range on that" but I can never seem to land it when I emulate her, so I've really come to appreciate it. Making it set up even better is actually my number 1 preferred choice of mods, and I meant to suggest it, but I figured that simply buffing the utilt is more true to Zelda's power stat. In retrospect though, having dtilt set up for some stuff, being weak but quick, and ftilt set up into other stuff, being stronger and more ranged, really does fit into Zelda's stream.

Thanks, this will be experimented with fully.

I think the flowering idea is really cute. It's a good way to use an underused mechanic. Can this be added to Ike's counter. I think it's a rather odd mechanic for someone as manly as Ike, but at least helps to balance this abyssmal move, and works towards balancing the game. Besides, Easter Eggs are win.

Ike's counter would probably be really silly and nonsensical looking, which I know is what you intend (WTF wut? LOL!) but probably not the best idea. I might play with it some more on Zelda, just because it fits the animation well. MAGIC FLOWER TIME!

Like I said before, just add damage to the last hit of Nyaru's. You don't need to make it safer, it's a reflector and has invincibility frames. Just make it cater more to the risk v reward theme by giving it more of a reward.

It really depends on where her matchups fall in the changed meta game. If she struggles primarily against projectile based characters (a possibility, she is defensive after all) buffing the accessibility of the reflector could be a good option. Otherwise, this idea will fall to the wayside and other Nayru's love buffs might be considered instead.

Nair is amazing. It's Zelda's most reliable aerial and lots of stuff sets of for it. On top of auto-cancelling (IIRC), it's pretty good. I recommend a plus 2 to the last hit.

That's what this version actualyl has, exactly. It's one of the two changes we went ahead and gave Zelda to test out for this release.

Speaking of Link buffs, why did you buff his SECOND hit so much? First only combos into it at like 0%, and maybe not even seeing as the hitstun is still the same. When are you going to be able to hit enemies with the second hit?

It's rare, but Legan certainly does it, and now it has a greater reward to match the difficulty in landing it.

 

[NintenJoe]

That suggestion for ftilt is actually what I originally thought. My sister often catches my MARTH with this move, and I'm like "wtf is with the range on that" but I can never seem to land it when I emulate her, so I've really come to appreciate it. Making it set up even better is actually my number 1 preferred choice of mods, and I meant to suggest it, but I figured that simply buffing the utilt is more true to Zelda's power stat. In retrospect though, having dtilt set up for some stuff, being weak but quick, and ftilt set up into other stuff, being stronger and more ranged, really does fit into Zelda's stream.

I think that buffing up Zelda's Ftilt and weakening her Dtilt and allowing it room to follow-up into other moves are both EXCELLENT suggestions. Her Dtilt is pretty slow as is so giving Zelda a reward after she lands that move will allow her to get kills a bit more easily.

Like I said before, just add damage to the last hit of Nyaru's. You don't need to make it safer, it's a reflector and has invincibility frames. Just make it cater more to the risk v reward theme by giving it more of a reward.

This will also make Zelda's boxing game a tad more reliable than it is now. Zelda's jab sucks, her grab range is virtually 0, and her Ftilt has sizeable start-up lag. Having this move with more damage and a little bit more knockback could make it Zelda's "GTFO my face" close range move.

Nair is amazing. It's Zelda's most reliable aerial and lots of stuff sets of for it. On top of auto-cancelling (IIRC), it's pretty good. I recommend a plus 2 to the last hit.

2. Zelda
-More knockback on down smash (95/20) -> (100/20) & (85/20) -> (100/20)
-More damage on neutral aerial last hit (5%) -> (7%)

Taken from OP, unless you mean 2 more %. I think 4% is a little too big of a buff.

Don't worry about Zelda trodding on Shiek. Zelda will need a LOT of improvement if you want her to have a 60-40 match-up with Marth, lmao.

I think that Zelda should be like Sheik's opposite in a respect. Zelda, a character who relys on ground game and heavy hits, should have some way to build up damage just as Sheik, a character who relys on tilts combined with spacing and aerials, has some killing options. The flower on the jab would be a reasonable addition in my opinion.

Speaking of Link buffs, why did you buff his SECOND hit so much? First only combos into it at like 0%, and maybe not even seeing as the hitstun is still the same. When are you going to be able to hit enemies with the second hit?

Sheild pressure and spot dodges. The second hits a lot more than the first.

Edit:

I do it all the time. It's called SPOT DODGE, also known as SIDE STEP.

Its reffered to as a "ghosty" where I live. lol

 

[Chaco]

It does kill Pierce7d, we use it as Single Jab-Grounded Yoshi Bomb. It kills. We just can't kill with a Yoshi bomb from the air.

 

[Thinkaman]

It does kill Pierce7d, we use it as Single Jab-Grounded Yoshi Bomb. It kills. We just can't kill with a Yoshi bomb from the air.

Interesting, are the two hitboxes different? In data collection I completely missed this if true, and probably only have the grounded version.

 

[Chis]

This should be sticked. This is the smash workshop boards, not the brawl+ boards.

 

[timothyung]

You guys seriously aren't fixing the triple jump glitch? It's a stupid glitch and it should be fixed

 

[Pierce7d]

Nope, I didn't realize the buff was already in. We're thinking on exactly the same lines here.

As far as Ike's counter, consider this . . .

The move needs a buff, quite badly actually. It's strong, but not strong enough, and it's SUPER DIable due to the Stun Jacket properties it possesses. As Ryko once aptly put it, "Ike's counter triggers on Frame 10. It's about as smart as trying to block your opponent's move by trying to react or bait it with Marth's fsmash. It's bad." While the flower would look very non-sensical, it's a reasonably balanced buff. If not a flower, perhaps freezing would be an interesting mechanic to experiment with. Ike could truly capitalize at lower percents, where you could break out faster, or set up for edgeguards/juggle traps better at higher percents. Freezing an opponent compliments quickdraw VERY NICELY. It's not as if it will be widely seen either, counter is still fiendishly stupidly hard to use.

OH! I almost forgot! Talking about counter made me remember some stuff I forgot to bring up originally. It made me think of Lucario's double team (that's a bad move right there, lol) which made me think of Lucario, which made me remember that increasing the damage on Lucario's sideB projectile isn't favorable IMO. What reallly, really needs a buff is his FAIR, which is good, but seriously, 3 damage is ridiculous. He fails so hard vs. Marth without it being reasonable, and it would have helped him overcome MK long ago. 5% might be too much, so I'll suggest experimenting with a +1. The projectile SideB is really already very good, because SideB acts as a dodge, and it's used SO incorrectly by Lucario's across the board, because it's an amazing landing trap, punishing the hell out of trying to airdodge into the ground into a shield, and possibly even punish spot dodge after that. Considering it functions as a grab and a projectile, I think the buffs on it are TOO significant. Naturally, I haven't seem it played with yet, I just know I'm going to get really upset when I spot dodge a grabbing move and eat 15% anyway.

B) Sonic's old spring gimp seems like it would be way more effective vs Marth, as Marth will sneeze at such a feeble attempt to hinder his massive vertical recovery, when previously hindering him with a horizontal gimp was much more favorable. Giving the spring a star-rod like trajectory for the semi-spike seems more plausible as a buff.

It does kill Pierce7d, we use it as Single Jab-Grounded Yoshi Bomb. It kills. We just can't kill with a Yoshi bomb from the air.

This, I know already, but I still feel that it should be stronger, or perhaps just the aerial version should be stronger than it is, but I've always agreed that the grounded version should pose more threat in terms of kill power than the aerial version. I suggest a buff to both versions. As a heavyweight, Yoshi does deserve one really solid early K.O. move that's hard to land, and he lacks that.

EDIT: and PLEASE, call me Pierce.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

*starts chant*

We Want PAL,
We Want PAL,
We Want PAL,
We Want PAL,
We Want PAL...

 

[Steeler]

oh also, i've always thought about buffing squirtle's jab but i was pretty sure that AA would just turn me down cuz he's afraid of my super squirtle (aka SS tier)

solo super squirtle is just ridiculous SSS tier material, a level of **** that no character has yet to eclipse.

which reminds me that making solo PT pokemon may be something to consider now that i can see a drop off if you go solo instead of PT...mainly because ivysaur doesn't drag the team down. in fact, i think ivysaur is now a valuable asset in lots of matchups.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

EDIT: Oh, and about ZSS . . . first of all, this is already a very good character. I do realize that spacies may neutralize her now.

A lot of people have been pushing to make the full jab connect. I disagree with this. As a frame one option, it's could become too powerful, unless the whole jab is nerfed. I think making the third hit jab +5 but shieldable will punish the opponent for messing up, without overpowering ZSS. Furthermore, the +1-2 to Nair is a fabulous suggestion, since this move evades decay, and has significant hitstun already. It's emerging as a new part of the ZSS metagame, and this could be the icing on the cake.

Lastly, since we're so interested in buffing fsmash, and we're trying to deal with Spacies all at the same time, just give the thing reflector properties. It fits, since the characters with good projectiles all seem to have reflectors anyway, and it will be similar to Ness and Lucas. The hitbox covers a wide area, including a little behind ZSS, and this is potentially an excellent way to punish lasers. If this modifier can be adjusted, I think you'll find you've done a lot for ZSS with a subtle, non-game breaking change. She'll still find bad match-ups in Marth, MK, and potentially some of these other characters.

The jab not connecting is part of the reason a lot of people consider her CQC game to be so bad. If the jab combo connected, it would be an amazing "get out of my face"option against certain characters, true, but I don't think it would make her overpowered. ZSS is definitely an amazing character, but I'm not convinced having a working jab would break her. The whole combo does 7% and the knockback is pretty much pitiful on the third jab, but it might be just good enough to get Snake out of ftilt range, for instance. =/

In regards to fsmash, sure, but if they make the fsmash reflect projectiles, I'd want it to have more active frames. There'd be virtually no use for it if it didn't start until frame 20, it has to come out earlyish and it can't be punishable on ending like fsmash currently is, otherwise there's virtually no point.

Dtilt: This is not an answer to camping Falcos unless you want to make it start up a LOT FASTER, and it is already a very fast move. Her crawl is so punishable I can't believe it.

Adapt: Agreed, actually, we can navigate the lasers but we can't do anything once we get there because we have no aerial options below us. Is it possible to reduce the landing lag on dair so that it combos into things?

And ZSS doesn't have bad matchups vs MK or Marth, they are both roughly even (MK in 'vBrawl'is 45:55 and Marth is even, despite what your board's matchup discussion says).

 

[kupo15]

You guys seriously aren't fixing the triple jump glitch? It's a stupid glitch and it should be fixed

BB isn't including the triple jump glitch? That is pretty lame. Its just as bad as tripping

 

[Pierce7d]

The jab not connecting is part of the reason a lot of people consider her CQC game to be so bad. If the jab combo connected, it would be an amazing "get out of my face"option against certain characters, true, but I don't think it would make her overpowered. ZSS is definitely an amazing character, but I'm not convinced having a working jab would break her. The whole combo does 7% and the knockback is pretty much pitiful on the third jab, but it might be just good enough to get Snake out of ftilt range, for instance. =/

In regards to fsmash, sure, but if they make the fsmash reflect projectiles, I'd want it to have more active frames. There'd be virtually no use for it if it didn't start until frame 20, it has to come out earlyish and it can't be punishable on ending like fsmash currently is, otherwise there's virtually no point.

And ZSS doesn't have bad matchups vs MK or Marth, they are both roughly even (MK in 'vBrawl'is 45:55 and Marth is even, despite what your board's matchup discussion says).

ROFL OKAY. Sure that's even. If this thread wasn't so chill, I'd fall back on my usual mantra and just challenge you to a money match.

I have significant experience fighting Snakeee. Trust me, I'm absolutely positive the match in vBrawl is slightly in Marth's favor. I don't know the match well enough to say about vs. MK, but I find that due to ZSS' unique trapping game, once you get match-up experience, you will not find yourself overtly struggling against this approach-less character (which is one major reason she fails against Falco, but like I've been saying, buff the dtilt. Hell, if that conjured freeze, lmao).

As for ZSS' boxing being bad? Yes, I consider it a well balanced weakness, considering how powerfully she can camp. It's actually pretty dumb that her utilt is even as good as it is. Her grab really is bad, so buff her pummel +1, and give it a break. You can DI out of Snake and Ike's Jab combos, and neither of them have FRAME ONE JAB. Just tap jab and roll away, Lucario does it all the time. Your game is focused around camping and zoning anyway, I don't see why you should be so dominant in this area as well. As I've said before, you've already got the utilt. I'd buff that before making the jab connect. And I've already suggested just making the third hit really good, giving it like +5 or something.

I've NEVER approved of Falco's idiocy. While it's true that I play Falco myself because I like the way he feels, I've always stated that he's the second dumbest character in the game in terms of conceptual strategy. Snake and MK have a broken strategy, but it's really their stats in conjunction with their respective strategies that make the the best in vBrawl. This also goes for Wario. Falco's stats aren't even that amazing, his strategy is just broken as ****. He fires a transcended projectile with global range and good rate of fire, and can whizz across the stage if you try to get close. However, this doesn't make him broken. He's imba because of this stupid *** frame 2 jab and his dumb spot-dodge, which is the best in the game. This makes him STUPIDLY hard to hit, AND gives him more access to his grab game.

Now, while I'll grant that ZSS doesn't have the same benefit of a grab game or even as good as a camp game as Falco, I'm really afraid to see what full rewards off of a frame 1 jab looks like vs. a camper. At least Squirtle is aggressive.

You may be right, I may be hyping it up too much in my head. Still, it's comforting knowing that I can still fight Falco because I can DI his multi-hit jab and punish very severely, or I can just UpB it out of the gate.

Hell, I'm not going to abandon support for the project if she gets the jab in, I just don't feel it's the right path, to give a camping character, a frame one, complete three hit jab combo.

BB isn't including the triple jump glitch? That is pretty lame. Its just as bad as tripping

QFT

 

[Chaco]

I agree Pierce Yoshi being a heavyweight does need a good solid early kill. That's an excellent point.

Also, Supermodel from Paris has the most conceited name ever.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ROFL OKAY. Sure that's even. If this thread wasn't so chill, I'd fall back on my usual mantra and just challenge you to a money match.

You would win, because I'm not as good a player as you, probably. However, do you usually win vs. Snakeee? I'm just curious, because Snakeee himself has told me personally that he thinks it is even. As for MK... the only thing we have to REALLY fear is tornado. We beat him in the air, which is where he's more comfortable. On the ground we can camp him pretty hard even though he will win there, and utilt ***** his close-range options (because it is disjointed, and out on frame 3). MK has the advantage obviously but we do OK there.

Anyway, that crap aside:

If you want to buff ZSS vs Spacies, she is going to need CQC buffs of some kind, but more importantly she needs aerial options from below her and dtilt isn't going to do it because it causes her vertical hitbox to grow, and she has to already be close and on the ground to hit with it.

I do think you are overhyping the jab combo. I have lost sets in which the opponent cannot powershield the jab (some characters can't). It is interesting, though, now that I think about it: Toon Link, Kirby, Jigglypuff, Game and Watch, and ROB are all characters that cannot powershield the jab without DI, and we **** every single one of them, so maybe you know something I don't.

Still, this is an evolving project and I don't see the harm in testing it out for a few weeks to see how it goes.

 

[Pierce7d]

I agree Pierce Yoshi being a heavyweight does need a good solid early kill. That's an excellent point.

Also, Supermodel from Paris has the most conceited name ever.

I dunno, despite silly ideas about a particular match-up, I've always thought it was kinda cool.

You would win, because I'm not as good a player as you, probably. However, do you usually win vs. Snakeee? I'm just curious, because Snakeee himself has told me personally that he thinks it is even. As for MK... the only thing we have to REALLY fear is tornado. We beat him in the air, which is where he's more comfortable. On the ground we can camp him pretty hard even though he will win there, and utilt ***** his close-range options (because it is disjointed, and out on frame 3). MK has the advantage obviously but we do OK there.

Anyway, that crap aside:

If you want to buff ZSS vs Spacies, she is going to need CQC buffs of some kind and dtilt isn't going to do it because it causes her vertical hitbox to grow, and she has to already be close to hit with it. Dtilt is a great move, but her problem is getting close; she doesn't have a lack of options at close range, the options are just situational and we are often forced to default to dash attacks and jabs (hello jab combo!).

I do think you are overhyping the jab combo. I have lost sets in which the opponent cannot powershield the jab (some characters can't). It is interesting, though, now that I think about it: Toon Link, Kirby, Jigglypuff, Game and Watch, and ROB are all characters that cannot powershield the jab without DI, and we **** every single one of them, so maybe you know something I don't.

Still, this is an evolving project and I don't see the harm in testing it out for a few weeks to see how it goes.

Truth be told, so much demand from ZSS players has got me curious about what it will be like, but I'm legitimately afraid of it.

Camp, camp, camp, OH! Look, you got in! PSYCH! Frame one jab! Camp camp camp.

You say you feel dtilt alone isn't enough, and I say that's a viable argument, but a buff to the utilt as well, a move that's still fairly fast and has a reasonable horizontal hitbox, give it a +2 and put a spacie in the air?! Wah say wah?! Sounds good to me.

 

[NintenJoe]

ok guys lets not let things flare up like they did when the Brawl+ controversy arose.

 

[Pierce7d]

ok guys lets not let things flare up like they did when the Brawl+ controversy arose.

Haha, SFP is mad chill. This is far from a fight.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Camp, camp, camp, OH! Look, you got in! PSYCH! Frame one jab! Camp camp camp.

Well, that's what it's for. It is to punish opponents that get too close.

Right now, the jab can't be cancelled to any effectiveness. Her jab cancel is so bad that it's nearly as good just to wait, and not cancel it by ducking. Seriously, try it.

So what does the one frame jab accomplish? It's at best a guaranteed 4% damage and a mix-up at close range. You can Jabx2-spot dodge and then try the combo again, which is what most of us do, or just jab and hope the opponent isn't smart enough to shield.

The reality is that the jab is good-ish, but isn't doing its job right now. If we're being honest, I think your fears are pretty justified, because it has been said more times by better players than me that ZSS is a character with a lot of top tier qualities that is held back by silly things like her jab not working and her fair not connecting correctly, etc., but that doesn't make it feel any better when I'm at close range and my only option is jab when that is just delaying the inevitable 'shield-and-I-lose' situation anyway.

Sorry, I'll stop spamming now. ;P

 

[Bouse]

Well then Pierce, go with my initial idea. Make it a two hit jab combo. Buff the knockback and damage on the second hit so the third never connects and isn't needed.

It's just that when you say... to roll away. It's kinda funny because her backroll sucks. Also, the only way to effectively do that would be to Jab->Crouch Cancel->PivotRoll. Which is a significant pain in the *** to do to build up damage one frame one jab at a time.

You bring up solid points with her campiness, but that's mostly due to the current metagame. I stopped frequenting tournaments because I play too aggressive of a ZSS and under most circumstances refuse to camp. By the current meta it's just frowned upon, and if you don't give her the jab that's the only playstyle of ZSS you're going to have.

But then again, it is a legit strategy. I'd just like to think that you could make her a rounded character like Diddy Kong, who I thought was the goal. Not a "Snakeee got bat**** crazy with this character set that as the average pro-play level for the character." It's a little lower than that. I've seen him cancel a spike at 95% with his tether out of sheer reaction. He spaces so many of his moves retardedly well it makes me sick. Not all of us do that, we might in a year or two but not now.

Honestly, I was just hoping to turn her into a character I could enjoy to play without camping my heart out. That's why I didn't join the boyscouts.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Honestly, I was just hoping to turn her into a character I could enjoy to play without camping my heart out. That's why I didn't join the boyscouts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_Pk8UiKEmo You can. Just FYI.

 

[Steeler]

you know, i wholeheartedly agree with the current goal to balance the game without altering hitbox size or timing and understand the reasoning.

but as some have said, it also holds the project back a bit.

however, i think that as the project continues to grow and (hopefully) picks up a good following, you'll have more leeway when it comes to changing things that are currently taboo. because you'll have a dedicated following. plus there may be more incentive to for some to pick it up and learn the new timing/spacing if it becomes the standard in some communities.

just a thought for people that are skeptical about this because it may seem too limited for it to work.

 

[GameSystem]

Are any of you guys ever going to write mini guides like they have for the + characters in the smash workshop character discussion? Like bMarth guide or w/e.

 

[Pierce7d]

Well, that's what it's for. It is to punish opponents that get too close.

Right now, the jab can't be cancelled to any effectiveness. Her jab cancel is so bad that it's nearly as good just to wait, and not cancel it by ducking. Seriously, try it.

So what does the one frame jab accomplish? It's at best a guaranteed 4% damage and a mix-up at close range. You can Jabx2-spot dodge and then try the combo again, which is what most of us do, or just jab and hope the opponent isn't smart enough to shield.

The reality is that the jab is good-ish, but isn't doing its job right now. If we're being honest, I think your fears are pretty justified, because it has been said more times by better players than me that ZSS is a character with a lot of top tier qualities that is held back by silly things like her jab not working and her fair not connecting correctly, etc., but that doesn't make it feel any better when I'm at close range and my only option is jab when that is just delaying the inevitable 'shield-and-I-lose' situation anyway.

Sorry, I'll stop spamming now. ;P

This isn't spam at all. Quality discussion here. Trust me, I like being disagreed with. I'm too respected sometimes, it's very annoying.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_Pk8UiKEmo You can. Just FYI.

This match really shows a lot of the stuff I'm saying. Look at how Utilt serves so awesomely as a "get out my face" option. Let's not forget ZSS already has Bair and Dsmash BOTH safe on block and ForwardB is, if it's not perfect shielded. Also, amazing trapping game and juggle game, and reliable edgeguard options and recovery (if you're not recovering with ZSS, you're doing it so wrong). Seriously, this match really did show how the buffs I'm suggesting would really complement ZSS.

Hell, buff ALL the tilts, as I really don't ever see ftilt getting usage. Coupled with buffing the Nair, ZSS becomes as good as Diddy IMO. Buffing the jab might do the same thing, but IMO it's an unfavorable approach to the problem, since the jab is frame one, and ZSS is so space orientated. ZSS MUST space her other moves, but jab ignores this. It doesn't fit.

Creating a two hit jab combo doesn't really solve the problem either. I'm not afraid of jab because it's three hits, lol. I'm afraid of it, because it's a frame one gtfo option. For a character like ZSS, I don't approve. I approve of increasing hit one and hit two damage and lessening the knockback, so that it function the same way it does now, just with more damage, so you get some reward for landing it, but to guarantee hit three, so that you get gtfo knockback off a frame one move, that's just dumb. Even Luigi is frame two, and his ability to camp is not NEARLY as effective as ZSS.

Are any of you guys ever going to write mini guides like they have for the + characters in the smash workshop character discussion? Like bMarth guide or w/e.

It's possible I might. I write a lot of guides and stuff, but this is the first time I've ever been really interested in a hack. Well, I was interested in Brawl+ at first, but then they made it so different and I lost interest. This does appeal to me a lot, but Genesis is next week, and then after that, I'm going put a lot of focus in Mario, as I intend on going only Mario for two tourney's straight, to see if he's as viable as I think he is (I still have to learn to fight Snake with Mario). That will probably be consuming most of my resources, so if I were to write a guide, it wouldn't likely be soon, unless I really, really like bBrawl. Truth be told, I'll probably like it a lot, just because I can use some characters that I like more effectively, and my Marth will have more challenges with other characters seeing buffs, but I'll probably focus on regular Brawl the most being a competative player, and I like just ****** with Marth

 

[NintenJoe]

Are any of you guys ever going to write mini guides like they have for the + characters in the smash workshop character discussion? Like bMarth guide or w/e.

well, based on the projects mission I don't think that guides will only needs to be altered slightly to adjust to the small changes made in BBrawl. Link guide will need some major revamping because of his huge buff, but high tier characters shouldn't have that big of a transition

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

This match really shows a lot of the stuff I'm saying. Look at how Utilt serves so awesomely as a "get out my face" option. Let's not forget ZSS already has Bair and Dsmash BOTH safe on block and ForwardB is, if it's not perfect shielded. Also, amazing trapping game and juggle game, and reliable edgeguard options and recovery (if you're not recovering with ZSS, you're doing it so wrong). Seriously, this match really did show how the buffs I'm suggesting would really complement ZSS.

Hell, buff ALL the tilts, as I really don't ever see ftilt getting usage. Coupled with buffing the Nair, ZSS becomes as good as Diddy IMO. Buffing the jab might do the same thing, but IMO it's an unfavorable approach to the problem, since the jab is frame one, and ZSS is so space orientated. ZSS MUST space her other moves, but jab ignores this. It doesn't fit.

If ftilt came out earlier and utilt didn't have the ending lag it did, I'd go without the jab combo. Plus, we'd have some real OOS options (omg).

BTW, since these guys talked about making matchups closer, I'm really interested in how they'd address hard-counters that don't involve chaingrabs or infinites. The ZSS/Falco situation is pretty unique in that it's not 70:30 because of anything like that. It's 70/30 because Falco shuts down everything she does well as a character. His strengths are her weaknesses and her strengths are nullified by his strengths.

I feel like anything you did to address this matchup (and the spaces) would have drastic effects on other match-ups. ZSS is a character with a lot of even-ish Matchups. She goes from 45:55-55:45 with most of the cast. Her only strong disadvantage is Falco, and her only soft counters (60:40) are Sheik and arguably Diddy Kong. Her strong matchups are basically all very low and bottom tiers and A tier (Kirby, ROB, GaW, ICs).

Because she's so close to where you want the game to be, I worry about the changes you'd make from an overall balance standpoint. It might be best to just... keep her weak to spacies. I mean, whatever. heh

Also: apply this logic to anyone, not just ZSS. For instance, could you really buff Marth to work vs. MK? I mean, maybe, since you nerfed MK.

 

[Thinkaman]

I want to throw some input in, but I'm going to save the time and test out some of the changes discussed just so we have a better idea of what exactly we are discussing.

BRB guys. And excellent level of discussion from all.

 

[Eyada]

Pierce is already arguing strongly for this point, but I want to emphasize the benefits of maintaining the diverse level of "boxing" ability. Heterogeneity amongst characters when it comes to extremely short-range combat is just as important as avoiding homogeneity in recoveries, damage, killing power, and so forth. Some characters just weren't meant to have good close quarter fighting abilities, and altering the boxing balance should be avoided unless absolute necessary. As it pertains to the Spacies in particular, boxing is one of their defining characteristics. Fox, Falco, and Wolf are supposed to be amongst the game's best boxers, and taking that away would be a very large step away from vBrawl.

Falco is an amazing camper with amazing boxing, which is an absurdly powerful combination. Giving ZSS powerful boxing abilities would put her into the same general character category as Falco; and, to be blunt, Brawl really, really, really does not need another Falco. Ever.

With the taming of of the broken Risk-Reward on Falco's throws, his boxing ability seems quite balanced now, especially when you consider that his Jab can be SDIed and punished. On the other hand, ZSS's Jab pops people away from her, allowing her to resume camping without risk of punishment; if it were guaranteed, the probability of stupid stuff happening would be quite high.

Moreover, why should ZSS be good at boxing? She's absolutely amazing at close-middle, middle, and long-middle range combat and spacing, her recovery is good, her killing power is good, and her damage racking is good. Her horrible Grab and her sub-par Jab make it pretty apparent that boxing is supposed to be one her weaknesses. She doesn't box so much as she simply tries to get people off of her long enough for her to get out and resume her zoning game. Changing that seems like a bad idea.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

this supermodel person wants to make zss's close up game better then ikes now. LOL if you give zss her jabs or whatever you want offered theres no chance in hell ike will beat her close up... also you can forget spacing cause ZSS can do it just as well plus she has those armors to start out with vs ike. u better chill with giving zss better close up options, PSSH

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Moreover, why should ZSS be good at boxing? She's absolutely amazing at close-middle, middle, and long-middle range combat and spacing, her recovery is good, her killing power is good, and her damage racking is good. Her horrible Grab and her sub-par Jab make it pretty apparent that boxing is supposed to be one her weaknesses. She doesn't box so much as simply try to get people off of her long enough for her to get out and resume her zoning game. Changing that seems like a bad idea.

But the jab is supposed to work. It isn't intentional that it doesn't. It's as broken as dsmash chains or grab infinites.

this supermodel person wants to make zss's close up game better then ikes now. LOL if you give zss her jabs or whatever you want offered theres no chance in hell ike will beat her close up... also you can forget spacing cause ZSS can do it just as well plus she has those armors to start out with vs ike. u better chill with giving zss better close up options, PSSH

wat

 

[Renegade TX2000]

if you do that seriously ike vs zss would be like 60/40 zss adv easily or worse... only thing ike has close up is jabs, and what will zss have if you give her the jabs? Faster jabs then ike close up, Up tilt, ftilt, dtilt all quick enough to space ikes jabs out. lol i'm smelling a person of greed and trying to break there own character

 

[Thinkaman]

Now ren, let's not accuse anyone was ill intent here. Everyone currently discussing is providing logical arguments. If ZSS mains really wanted to selfishly break their character, they'd be calling for say buffs to side-b to a drastically faster grab.

No one is being unreasonable, and the debate is good.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

lol okay i'll let it fly i lose to snakeee 100x over as it is... i'm not trying to lose even more now lol cause the close up game was all i had. just makin sure u know me thinkaman

 

[Zook]

I'm going to hate myself for asking this... But where to I put which codes? I'm having a bit of trouble figuring this out.

 

[Eyada]

But the jab is supposed to work. It isn't intentional that it doesn't. It's as broken as dsmash chains or grab infinites.

I disagree. I believe that her Jab is broken for the same reason that power-suit Samus' Jab is broken: design intent. They are both good campers/spacers and boxing is one of their fundamental weaknesses to balance that out. Their Jab is supposed to not work because they were designed to fail at extremely close quarters combat. If an opponent violates her spacing and gets that close, Samus is supposed to be at a serious disadvantage. (Kind of like how Falco is intended to get gimped mercilessly if you somehow violate his spacing and force him to recover from below the level.)

Edit: Let me elaborate a bit more. Look at all of ZSS's close-range options. Horrible Grab, ineffective Jab, U-Tilt is one her better options but it is still bad in comparison to other characters, none of her other Tilts are good at close-quarter, and her OOS options are sub-par compared to other characters. Everything about her indicates a weakness to boxing. None of her traits or attacks are designed to let her really handle people being close to her for extended periods of time. She simply isn't designed to handle it. She has a fast Jab that allows her to poke and then make an escape, but that's all. Jab keeps her from being trapped; it isn't intended to make her win the boxing match.

Her crappy Jab (and her sub-par boxing abilities in general) fits into the same category as Link's recovery, Yoshi's shield, and Falco's Up-B. ZSS isn't supposed to be able to box by design, just like Sonic isn't supposed to be good at killing and Olimar isn't supposed to be immune to gimping.

 

[Steeler]

i don't think designer intent matters with someting like zss' jab combo, because it is hard to prove or disprove. what really matters is if it's a disadvantage that fits into the overall strengths and weaknesses of the character and doesn't polarize any matchups.

for example, squirtle relies heavily on CQC, so the fact that its jab can be powershielded is a much more relevant weakness than for ZSS, because she has excellent spacing tools and doesn't rely on CQC.

 

[icyrvnd]

Brawl+ > What we wanted Brawl to be before its release+Balancee

I hope that by "we" you didn't mean the great great majority of Melee/64 players.

~~
@topic
Seems weird, but is probably better than vBrawl.