Balanced Brawl Public Preview *GENESIS UPDATE*

[stingers]

Thank god SfP wasn't on this project <.< Dear god ZSS would be so broken

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Thank god SfP wasn't on this project <.< Dear god ZSS would be so broken

What? Paralyzer is really slow and easily power shielded, the only matchups this would really effect are ones against characters with long-range projectiles.

Also, I meant some of those qualities, not all of them. Oops, sorry.

I think you're forgetting just how slow this move is. What I'm hoping this/these buff(s) would do is allow her to abuse the lag between lasers to approach him, and if he plays badly, get a Paralyzer shot off.

BTW, I think my suggestions have been really reasonable in this thread, so there's no reason to flame me over them.

 

[YagamiLight]

oh boy...so ledge, 5 aethers, ledgehop on, repeat. yay.

Truth be told I REALLY don't see what's wrong with this. They ledgehop, you use the fact that they are vulnerable to inflict very good damage to them. They try it again you just inflict damage again. It's a losing strat if they try it.

 

[Ussi]

Aether should sooooooooo heal Ike... its part of the move in Fire Emblem.

You guys act as if Aether is so good. Anyone with a 3 frame aerial/special can interrupt it while being hit by it. Plus WHY WOULD YOU LET IKE AETHER YOU 5 ledge hops in a ROW? As a ROB main (going off icon) you can just laser and gyro Ike... for way more damage he'd recover. Or just fly above him and spike him.

 

[iLink]

Regarding these ZSS buffs:

I'm pretty sure they can't mess with the priority. Also making it less laggy would making it an ordeal for characters that don't have a projectile or handle them well. Maybe making it go a bit further...

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'm pretty sure they can't mess with the priority. Also making it less laggy would making it an ordeal for characters that don't have a projectile or handle them well. Maybe making it go a bit further... but I'm not sure if they can do that either.

OK, well that addresses that. Was a fun thought.

 

[Eyada]

All of the Ike discussion is interesting and whatnot, but I think it's more important to consider if Ike really needs any more buffs. He just had a character-defining, immensely crippling weakness completely removed. He went from having the second worst recovery in the game to a far-above-average recovery. He's only outperformed by the very best recoveries in the game now.

That's pretty huge, and it makes me think that Ike is perfectly fine without any more love.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

All of the Ike discussion is interesting and whatnot, but I think it's more important to consider if Ike really needs any more buffs. He just had a character-defining, immensely crippling weakness completely removed. He went from having the second worst recovery in the game to a far-above-average recovery. He's only outperformed by the very best recoveries in the game now.

That's pretty huge, and it makes me think that Ike is perfectly fine without any more love.

I'm not saying it's correct, but there is a prevailing sentiment that laggy attacks = bad character, so it's understandable that people might want more Ike buffs. He can still kill at 60% though, heh.

 

[NintenJoe]

So i've officially play tested Sheik and Captain Falcon and there is are a few changes that I believe should be considered:

Captain Falcon:
-Decrease the insane lag on aerial raptor boost. The amount of lag CF has after this move is ludicrous, making the change where he's "no longer vulnerable" a tad incorrect. This move has a ton of start-up lag as it stands, so I think aerial raptor boost should have a lot less lag and allow him to follow up with Nair or Uair.
-Tone down his knee. Although I do like the ****, I don't think it should be THAT good.

The little changes to his approach game would make up for his terrible priority and change the basis of his game to not solely consist of grabs.

Sheik:
-Dtilt has a really weird effect. It will occasionally hit behind Sheik, allowing a Bair follow-up at lower percentages, but other times it will hit the opponent directly above Sheik and leaves her vulnerable. I think there should just be a damage increase or something similar. That or make the angle a bit mroe manageable.
-Zelda problems, but you're taking care of them.

 

[Ussi]

Recovery isn't Ike's only problem, just his BIGGEST problem. Now he should well be able to handle most of the cast with Olimar being his only 30-70. (I mean rest being within 40-60 to 60-40 (but this does depend on buffs from other characters too as the MUs all get affected still.)

Still recovery isn't gonna save him from being at a disadvantage. It's bad cause he's not hard to get off stage in the first place too.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

talked with thinkaman, he cannot add recovery effects.

 

[Ussi]

awww someone should figure out how to~

 

[stingers]

i'm sure it's possible, but nobody really hacks brawl anymore sooo...good luck finding someone

 

[Bouse]

Well... I just had the breakthrough idea for ZSS.

It makes it so you don't need to alter the third hit of her jab to make it faster or anything like that, just her second jab attack. It's balanced, and doesn't **** with damage or knockback.

End the 2nd jab a couple frames early, and add those frames to the third jab start-up.

Keeps it so the jab combo doesn't auto-connect to the third hit but makes it more mind-gamey. Also it'll let you do some Jab-Canceling so you can actually combo out of her Jab a lot better. However, this brings me to the next part. Risk vs Reward.

What would be the proper buff to her third hit making it actually worth risking? Making the Tilt-Games actually worth not doing? I'll tell you!

Make the third hit of her jab a weak spike. No more than say her initial hit of her Dair. Which would allow for some sort of games on edges, and could lead to decent tech chases. Hell, I think you could implement this part without screwing with the end frames of Jab-2.

I would highly suggest nerfing the damage on the jabs though if you do this. Keep the knockback the same just so it doesn't go crazy sauce.

Edit: On Ike, to be honest I think if you cut the start-up on Dsmash and increased the damage on a move or two of his he should be relatively balanced. The only bull**** thing is he can't deal with people who can really just f*ck with him in the air.

Luigi is just a rampant hooker in that department and should be used as a general guide to combat that issue.

 

[xDD-Master]

LOL Giving Ivysaur the possibility to give the oppenant a flower with DAir, UpAir and UpSmash is a soooo fckin good idea xD

This would make him very unique. Also the jiggs rest healing thing would be nice.

------------------------------------

I fought today with Jabbo (DDD Main) with Snake, here my impressions:

The Match-Up is really like 50/50, maybe 55 in Snakes Favour. DDD cant CG Snake anymore, but he can now Tech-Chase him (But thats not easy). Otherwise Snake cant kill DDD with UpTilt anymore and the "fear" that a strong uptilt gives the oppenant is away too. But so is fear of getting CGed. DDD can still kill Snake with his Uptilt, but that happened not often cause DDDs Uptilt range isnt that good like Snakes. So it's okay that his up-tilt stays the same. All in all I won the Bo3 both times with high %. And I'm quite good vs. DDDs and dont get grabbed often (In both games), so the match-up is pretty similar to the original one and both character loses a good trump in this match.

---------------------------------------

Another thing I tought of about Snake is making him more "real".

This means: Nerf all his Tilts & Aerials that they only KO at 200% or more, but make his moves with explosion much stronger (UpSmash, FSmash, DSmash, C4, Nikita & Grenades) <- This Snake could be really interesting o_O

Just think about this, I still know that you wont change anything until you know how Snake fits now in the game xD

 

[SoliceTK]

Texture Hacks please! Good job and thank you for all the hard work!

 

[Linkshot]

That would change Snake's game far too much.

As for how to even out Zamus VS Falco...

Why not fiddle with Falco? I mean, character-wise, he's the brute of Star Fox. Rushes in without thought and tries to tear things up.

Considering this, maybe nerf his lasers somehow? I know distance can't be changed, but maybe make aerial lasers (if even possible) not flinch? I remember something being said about lasers being a constant. Another approach: Give the lasers a set knockback that pops the opponent toward Falco at the right spacing. I realise this will change his entire game, but it will balance him out. Feedback would be much appreciated.

EDIT: On the note of Texture Hacks, please make Toon Link's sword look either like Hero's or Phantom. Two Master Swords ruins my mind.

 

[Pierce7d]

Well, I called up Rykoshet, and he came over to my house, and so half my crew and a friend just playtested this.

First and foremost, this was FUN as hell! Ike vs. Marth was the first thing me and Ryko did and it was much closer and more balanced. Ike's strengths shined through strong, as did Marth's and I really want to dub it 55-45 Marth. It's very frikken close now. Ike is an amazing character, but in no way broken. I feel it's perfect.

I used a lot of Mario and Link, because I play these characters. Link is pretty solid now. He's an amazing asset in doubles, and with Onett and Bridge of Eldin on, he really can see play. UpB is extremely viable, as is fsmash, and the damage boost made Link feel way more useable than natural. I must say that in singles, arrows are still good, but good players should still be using bombs a little more for the same reason that they did before.

Mario is amazing. He was already amazing, and now he has better fireballs. You have to be a god status Mario to land Fair in the first place, so the buff is worth it but not gamebreaking. Dtilt is still tricky to follow up, but a good move now. The improvements on his smashes are also noticable. Not getting punished at low percents for Usmash was great too.

My brother plays a pretty solid Yoshi. This guy is FAT. One problem I noticed was that a lot of stages have expanded deathlines, and I thought I was being sarcastic when I said Yoshi would live to 200% every stock, but it's mad legit. Yoshi is stupidly fat. DO NOT BUFF THE DOWN B ANY FURTHER. It's borderline safe landing. I mean, to be honest, I was a little dissapointed when the aerial version hit my Mario at 120 and we were already in the air and I didn't even come close to dying, but if this move is any better, it will be annoyingly spammed. It doesn't need it. Dsmash is very solid, and while being able to pressure Yoshi's shield was a noticeable weakness, it definitely did NOT break Yoshi. Yoshi is another extremely good doubles character. Fair's risk vs. reward is seriously good now. Dair also deals good damage. Unfortunately, if Yoshi connects with this in midair, you can actually DI through it vertically, and RISE through the dair. Of course, this requires a pro level of Smash DI, so it's not like noobs will be doing it left and right, and a glancing hit will still have a weak meteor as always. Oh, and DIing through the Dair obviously makes you eat loads of damage, so it's not horrible.

Ganon is still abyssmal. In fact, except for a few times, I was barely able to use any of Ganon's gimmicks. Aerial DownB feels like a nerf to me actually. There were so many choice moments when connecting with it would have resulted in me ending a stock in vBrawl, but now it just returns my opponent to the ground, which doesn't even give Ganon time to set up traps, since he's heavily anti-air in the first place. You should just increase the power of the aerial version of this move if you want to buff it, as it's current buff is actually a nerf, ESPECIALLY if you can keep the new Quake. Quake was useful, and Utilt came through for me a little, and I landed one UpB Punch which failed to kill Yoshi, but I did say "WTF" at the knockback and Yoshi was at lower mid percents. Still, Ganon's fundamental flaw of not being able to deal with pressure still allowed most of the cast to wreck him, and I wasn't able to win any matches with Ganon. There's 0 reason I would be able to imprint someone in the ground with downB. Dtilt tech chase was already, but I kept forgetting to use it correctly, and tried to follow up like Ganon's old dtilt, which was already a good move. The new one is better, but Ganon's style isn't for me. Fair needs a huge power boost, considering how much start-up and the STUPID ending lag on that move. You can full hop Fair with Ganon and still have the landing lag on it. I suggest +2. Ganon needs more testing, but so far, he's still bottom tier.

Marth is still broken, lol. He beats Snake now, but not by much. 55-45 Marth me thinks. Getting hit by Utilt and not dying was way more significant than I expected, since Marth really doesn't die to aerials, should evade most traps, and ftilt gets stale. However, perhaps a Snake more skilled at getting rewards off of dthrow will give my Marth more of a challenge.

My brother ***** my **** with Ivysuar in doubles, lmao. He didn't even fully abuse all the new features either. I need more play to see if it was just a one time thing.

Pit hits harder, but it's easier to DI out of a lot of his stuff. Bowser hits really hard with ftilt now. I like both of these buffs. Oh, Bowser's Dair . . . that move is good.

I'm getting this for myself, so I should actually be able to do a lot more playtesting. IMO, not enough has changed to merit giving ZSS many buffs. Dtilt should help vs. Falco, and ZSS wins in the air. Perhaps make ftilt hit with a star rod trajectory, so it helps to gimp Falco easier if you connect the hit, and you're good.

We have quite a few replays and Ryko will be uploading some of them. These will of course be offline, and while the matches aren't all at 100% because we're still adjusting, you can see how these characters will function at a fairly high level of play.

EDIT: We didn't play on Spear Pillar, but Mushroomy Kindgom was fun, as was WiFi loading room. For the love of god, please put the water back to how it was. We'll just ban Pirate Ship.

Falco is obviously not as good before, but it SEEMS that you can still do a boost Usmash to follow up Dthrow at lower percents. I really miss the positional advantage of Bthrow. Falco obviously isn't as good, but still a decent character.

I really like the changes to Ness. To be completely honest, I was getting a little frustrated how my brother's Ness was giving my Marth a run for his money.

MK is still the same old thing. I never spammed dsmash anyway, considering ftilt has always done more damage. Tornado is so fair, I love it. MKs will be relying on Nair for kills more, as Dsmash really isn't cutting it. Glide attack and Nair are where it's at now, but I think MK is a fair character now. I'll do some Marth vs. Meta when I get my own copy of this, since my brother plays an extremely competent MK (he'd be ranked in Jersey if he played Singles, but he doesn't like Brawl singles. He loves this though, as do I).

I really had a blast the whole time, and I'm super eager to play this more.

EDIT2: I really didn't want to say this, because I like Marth being good, but I feel Marth is still too powerful. Once I get the hang of other character's strengths, I'll work around them. Marth still can gimp the hell outta Ike, it's just much harder, but not outside his fundamental characteristics, and it requires mastering now. I still feel he'll destroy most of the low tiers once I learn the match-ups. Still, that could also just be that my crew hasn't even fully mastered their new powers yet. I'll give it more time. Aside from that, nerfing Marth will definitely make him worse than Diddy Kong.

 

[Shady Penguin]

I have some ideas for changes I would like. I haven't read a lot of this thread, so my bad if I restate some ideas.

- Snake's f-tilt does around 16 damage total. It's a big nerf, but 16 damage is good enough for a move with such broken range and priority.

- Increase the movement Wolf has in his helpless state after a Fire Wolf

- Significantly decrease the knockback of Fox's u-smash

- Buff Fox's weight to around average (Mario). This should be possible without changing any physics, correct? Fox's weight makes no sense.....

- All of Olimar's attacks with white pikmin show a poisonous effect on contact and do more damage than the attack would do with any other type of pikmin (but the lowest knockback on everything if that isn't already the case).

- Some kind of nerf to Olimar's grabbing. Perhaps the pikmin can't grab on the way back, making the grab attempt leave you open if you miss it like other long-range grabs (it would still be good due to the speed and range though.

- Change Olimar's down-b to lightly hurt close enemies and have invincibility frames in the beginning (think Wolf's down-b) along with its usual effects (minus super armor). I think this could possibly help Olimar's recovery significantly (knock enemies off the ledge safely before up-b and provide immunity to gimps if used right).

- Decrease the charge time of Squirtle's water gun and Mario's FLUDD. We all know we'd like these moves to be better.

- Change DK's giant punch so that the fully charged punch is the actually the strongest stage of the move. DK's second-to-last wind-up being the strongest is just plain silly. Make it so that the second strongest level is just weaker (don't nerf the fully-charged punch).

- Increase the speed of DK's headbutt. As devestating as it can be when it actually lands, landing it can against a good opponent is way too rare for the move to be worth much. Also, it's common for a headbutt to not do much. It dissapoints me to see a DK actually land a headbutt, only to have the opponent very quickly break-out at low damage.

- Increase the speed of DK's fair.

 

[Tommy_G]

If you don't want Falco to camp, taking away the aerial stun in lasers isn't a very good idea imo. Falco doesn't even get the majority of the damage from the lasers. They only do 2% aside from the first laser, and maybe the 3rd, which does 3%. The Phantasm is what helps him camp so hard. Lasers just force approaches(which is what Falco does) Phantasm makes him so difficult to hit. If anything nerf the phantasm and buff the firebird(Less beginning lag, more distance, something that makes it so falco doesn't die when he's below the stage.) For the phantasm you could keep the damage but have it do zero knockback or stun.

Also seeing falco doesn't have a very good kill move, people will live to ridiculous percents against him if they just space him correctly with the phantasm nerf(if possible)

 

[Pierce7d]

If you don't want Falco to camp, taking away the aerial stun in lasers would make him worse than Ganondorf. Falco doesn't even get the majority of the damage from the lasers. They only do 2% aside from the first laser, and maybe the 3rd, which does 3%. The Phantasm is what helps him camp so hard. Lasers just force approaches(which is what Falco does) Phantasm makes him so difficult to hit. If anything nerf the phantasm and buff the firebird(Less beginning lag, more distance, something that makes it so falco doesn't die when he's below the stage.) For the phantasm you could keep the damage but have it do zero knockback or stun.

Also seeing falco doesn't have a very good kill move, people will live to ridiculous percents against him if they just space him correctly with the phantasm nerf(if possible)

I wasn't implying that Falco should be nerfed any further. He's really solid, but no longer broken.

I have some ideas for changes I would like. I haven't read a lot of this thread, so my bad if I restate some ideas.

- Snake's f-tilt does around 16 damage total. It's a big nerf, but 16 damage is good enough for a move with such broken range and priority.

Snake sucks in the air, and ftilt is a core part of his gameplay. It's not safe on block, and is really predictable if you're patient and careful. With utilt nerfed, Snake now needs this.

- Increase the movement Wolf has in his helpless state after a Fire Wolf

Why? Wolf's recovery is already good if you DI properly and play smart. It's not supposed to be better than it already is. Being able to gimp Wolf is an underlying and balancing weakness.

- Significantly decrease the knockback of Fox's u-smash

WTF? Hell no. Fox is totally balanced as it is.

- Buff Fox's weight to around average (Mario). This should be possible without changing any physics, correct? Fox's weight makes no sense.....

Why would we add weight to a fast campy character with a pretty solid grab, projectile, and kill move. He's meant to be quick and light.

- All of Olimar's attacks with white pikmin show a poisonous effect on contact and do more damage than the attack would do with any other type of pikmin (but the lowest knockback on everything if that isn't already the case).

I see absolutely nothing wrong with the way Olimar's pikman are now. Whites are for grabbing and tossing them at your opponent.

- Some kind of nerf to Olimar's grabbing. Perhaps the pikmin can't grab on the way back, making the grab attempt leave you open if you miss it like other long-range grabs (it would still be good due to the speed and range though.

Olimar's grab doesn't need nerfing. Learn to abuse it's lack of grab armor. Bowser can deal with it with his new Dair. Ike has more mobility to try and navigate around Oli now. I want to see Oli playtested more before I start nerfing the most essential part of his game.

- Change Olimar's down-b to lightly hurt close enemies and have invincibility frames in the beginning (think Wolf's down-b) along with its usual effects (minus super armor). I think this could possibly help Olimar's recovery significantly (knock enemies off the ledge safely before up-b and provide immunity to gimps if used right).

I think it's perfect the way it is personally.

- Decrease the charge time of Squirtle's water gun and Mario's FLUDD. We all know we'd like these moves to be better.

Best suggestion, however, I already suggested it and it can't be done.

- Change DK's giant punch so that the fully charged punch is the actually the strongest stage of the move. DK's second-to-last wind-up being the strongest is just plain silly. Make it so that the second strongest level is just weaker (don't nerf the fully-charged punch).

No, I think it makes sense that the strongest part of the move is probably the hardest part to achieve. It's not as if fully charged punch is weak, lmao.

- Increase the speed of DK's headbutt. As devestating as it can be when it actually lands, landing it can against a good opponent is way too rare for the move to be worth much. Also, it's common for a headbutt to not do much. It dissapoints me to see a DK actually land a headbutt, only to have the opponent very quickly break-out at low damage.

This is a good cross-up and shield pressure gimmick. Also, you shouldn't be trying to bury your opponents into the ground at 10%

- Increase the speed of DK's fair.

No, but I agree this move needs a buff. +2 IMO.

No, just no. To virtually everything you said. The only thing I potentially agree with is decreasing the charge time of water moves, but this isn't even game changing. My qualms are bolded.

 

[YagamiLight]

I actually agree with giving Wolf more movement after his up B. Not being able to budge for like a second after the Up B is sort of silly.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

I actually agree with giving Wolf more movement after his up B. Not being able to budge for like a second after the Up B is sort of silly.

i agree with this. back when i mained wolf this killed me more then anything else.

 

[Pierce7d]

Eh, UpB is better and ftilt are better. I really wouldn't boost Wolf's recovery anymore, he's already good. If I were to tweak anything else about Wolf, it would be Nair.

 

[Mr.-0]

I suppose it's to early to ask for general tiers on this?


On a side-note, I PMed ALmas on wheather or not we can make threads in the smash worksop character discussion subcategory thing and he said that if BBrawl gets enough hype he'll bring it up with people who have the power to authorize that sort of thing.

 

[Eyada]

- Significantly decrease the knockback of Fox's u-smash

I hate to sound melodramatic, but this would ruin Fox. He's a glass cannon, and Up Smash is the epitome of everything that makes him awesome to play.

Concerning Fox in general, I haven't had the opportunity yet to extensively test his new bBrawl match-ups, but I will be surprised if he has to be changed at all. Almost all of his bad match-ups went away completely or will be far more manageable due to nerfs. I strongly suspect that he is exactly where he needs to be power-level wise.

 

[Mr.-0]

Hey pierce, why'd you mention that ike is in no way broken?

 

[Pierce7d]

Hey pierce, why'd you mention that ike is in no way broken?

Uh, because he's not. I mean, you made a huge buff, and I played today with one of the most competent Ike players who was quickly able to implement his new stuff. He's just not broken. He's very good, but I merely wanted to point out that the SideB, while accenting Ike's game incredibly well, is not at all overpowered, and Ike is just a really solid character now.

EDIT: Also Eyada seems to be amazing.

 

[Mr.-0]

Oh, I thoguht that you were implying that some people thought he was broken. CAn somebody read my page 71 post plz? Doesn't anybody care? Oh..... I feel like krillin now.

 

[Pierce7d]

Oh, I thoguht that you were implying that some people thought he was broken. CAn somebody read my page 71 post plz? Doesn't anybody care? Oh..... I feel like krillin now.

I did. It's just way too soon for tiers.

 

[Mr.-0]

Sorry if this sounds like a beggin kid trying to get attention ( it sort of is ) but did you read the secon dpart? And way to early for tiers? Hmm, I guess your right.

 

[Linkshot]

Why would we bring up tiers at all? B-Brawl is supposed to remove tiers and make it so anybody can win if played properly.

 

[Tommy_G]

Why would we bring up tiers at all? B-Brawl is supposed to remove tiers and make it so anybody can win if played properly.

There will always be some characters better than others, the important thing is that all characters have solid counters against them

 

[Mr.-0]

If there truly was a game where all characters were equal but were diffrent it would be amazing. But that never will happen. Though if they hack brawl again and again and again and again and a- you know what I mean. They might get it if they try it till they die. I don't quite know if BBrawl ( or Brawl+ ) is really super balnced yet.

 

[Eyada]

CAn somebody read my page 71 post plz? Doesn't anybody care? Oh..... I feel like krillin now.

Yeah, definitely too early for tiers. Once this project becomes more popular it might get a little crowded here in the Workshop, but I doubt things will get out of hand.

EDIT: Also Eyada seems to be amazing.

Uhh, thanks? (The lack of inflection and intonation on the Internet is annoying at times.)

 

[Pierce7d]

Yeah, definitely too early for tiers. Once this project becomes more popular it might get a little crowded here in the Workshop, but I doubt things will get out of hand.



Uhh, thanks? (The lack of inflection and intonation on the Internet is annoying at times.)

. I hope that helps clarify things

Also, this game will certainly have tiers. We're aiming to remove unwinnable match-ups, and hard counters will be no worse than 65-35 (I think aiming for only 60-40s or better is unrealistic.)

Of course, when I say we, I mean the developers, which I am not one of, but I support this project.

 

[Thinkaman]

Pierce, that was a fantastic post. Back to work for me though.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Steeler, your sig is insane.

I just did some slow-mo tests with Zelda, to imagine how some changes might help her. Also, I don't know what I was thinking, she is still going to suck for DDD; she has one of the longest tech rolls, not shortest, I'm stupid. Regrabbing her out of d-throw is often impossible.

Didn't notice that before. Yeah, one of her advantages. When we were testing chainchoking, us Ganons found out that it's impossible to get regrab with Flamechoke when she rolls away.

F-tilt I have mixed feelings about. Do we want to make it better at killing, or more consistent in setting up other things? I would not be opposed to making this Zelda's "game changer" by speeding up the ending lag so it is safe on block and has doesn't kill but leads to good followups.

Something. It's just horrible now, and it's a great opportunity to give her an actual useful move.

Nayru's love is the only other move I would be comfortable with changing timing (ending lag) on. It just doesn't seem viable in a lot of matchups. Angle/setup cahgnes are also worth looking at.

2 words. Dragon punch. Give her frame 1 to hitbox invincibility (I know you can't add, but can you switch them, or take frames away before it). That would help depolarize a lot of her match-ups.

D-tilt is fine. No, we can't change trip ratios.

Yes.

I think f-smash should be harder to DI out of. U-smash is fine. D-smash might get that higher angle but is otherwise good.

YES.

And d-smash NEEDS a higher angle. Teching will destroy it.

Fair and bair have little reason to be changed. Uair does it's job too. Dair needs to be investigated. Nair is sort of a black sheep imo. How does it fit into Zelda's high level playstyle?

No, they do. If you don't. If you don't sweetspot it, it's not safe on HIT. That's bad and wrong.

Nair is her semi-viable approach, and pressure.



QUOTE=Thinkaman;7768922]In other news, Zelda being able to sweetspot dairs on the ground? Totally broken. I'm DESTROYING CPUs using only dair. It makes Ganon's thunderstorming look pathetic. There's no way this can ever fit into the game.[/QUOTE]

It lacks the range and priority of Ganon's. Honestly, you'll get it against cpus, and not much else, unless you're punishing.

 

[Turbo Ether]

In vbrawl, Wolf lacks a reliable vertical killer. His Upsmash does a solid 18%, but the knockback is bleh, making it more of an unsafe damage racker than a finisher. So, consider this:

Upsmash: Increased knockback. Damage decreased from 18% to 15%.
Fsmash: Damage increased from 15 to 18%.

Net result: He retains an unsafe, yet damaging smash attack, while gaining a much-needed vertical kill move.

Another issue, the triple jump glitch also causes Wolf to have a terrible time on the ledge, and his ledge game isn't that great to begin with.

A lesser issue with Wolf is the blaster. It's actually unsafe ON HIT up close. If it had some knockback to it, the move would be quite a bit more useful, in general. For 6% damage and frame disadvantage, the move just isn't rewarding enough to be used more than every now and then, at high levels of play.

 

[Dark Sonic]

2 words. Dragon punch. Give her frame 1 to hitbox invincibility (I know you can't add, but can you switch them, or take frames away before it). That would help depolarize a lot of her match-ups.

No, you really CAN'T move invincibility (didn't I explain this earlier). Invincibility frames are "static." Even if you were to take away all the lag that was present before them, the invincibility frames would simply shift into the same window as before. Taking hypothetical move exampe:

Move A has 10 frames of startup and invincibility on frames 6-9. Total duration of the move is 20 frames.

This move has invincibility right before the hitbox comes out. Now when we speed up the move by 2x from frame 1.

Move A (modified) now has 5 frames of startup and invincibility on frames 6-9 (that's right, they don't move). Total duration of the move is 15 frames.

This move has invincibility DURING THE HITBOX. Irronically, in this example the invincibility occurs after the hitbox has already been out for 1 frame.


Hope this clears up any questions related to SA frames, invincibility, and the dead jump frame (that 1 frame during a jump that doesn't register inputs....is unfortunately static).