A URC members thoughts on the Metaknight Ban

[C.J.]

who has one of the best match ups against MK? falco

who loses horridly to ICs and pika? falco

who beats Ics considerably (thanks to CP) and pika just by being better? MK

your turn

yeah...youre just wrong here.

I'm really curious where you disagree? The few times MK/Pika has happened at top level it... wasn't pretty. Ant1 (who to the best of my knowledge doesn't really have that much high, and no top level experience vs Pika) vs Es4m wasn't particularly... well even looking. Sure, es4m messed up a lock, but even despite that, even with Ant1's lack of MU knowledge (especially compared to Es4m's), Ant1 beat es4m well enough and demonstrated that MK wins the MU; especially when MK gets any kind of noticeable lead. Then M2K beat Es4m enough to knock him off of Pika and to IC.
Before you reference Tyrant (who is notorious for being bad against a lot of characters and has- actually probably zero MU exp) vs Es4m, I do not believe that to be a good representation of the MU.

As for Ice Climbers, I believe- as do many others- that even on FD IC loses to MK and is even at best for IC. But given the fact that FD will be banned by MK in that MU, MK certainly has a winning MU with IC.

I don't believe there is anything remotely close to an argument that IC/pika beat Falco.

Then, especially assuming a LGL, it's fairly commonly accepted that Falco has one of the better MUs with MK.

To be completely honest, I don't see anything in Ripple's post that is very far from the truth, even assuming that it isn't completely accurate. I don't see how you can refute a post that contains information that is largely considered to be true by most players (sans M2K because, while I like the guy, I don't adhere to his opinion of MUs by any stretch of the imagination) by just saying "no." If you would be so kind as to give evidence as to why you believe the commonly thought MU "numbers" are wrong, please demonstrate.

 

[Tommy_G]

I don't get this logic. You say pro ban is selfish and even the top players just want MK banned to make things easier on themselves? The same could be said about anti-ban, even the ones who don't main MK. For example, I know Mekos is anti-ban. Maybe he just wants to make sure Marth isn't prevalent enough to ruin his chances of winning? You really as just speculating on people's motives without looking at your own.

Anyone could ignorantly just make up a logical reason that the other side is being selfish.

For ****'s sake, you can't argue selfishness as 24% of the community trying to overpower 76%.

I don't have hidden motives. MK is beatable and tournaments have shown he has been beaten, therefor I don't think anything else matters. I don't care if 99% wants him banned. In a competitive scene, if he doesn't deserve a ban for being unbeatable, he shouldn't be banned.

Another difference is people have to learn Marth to the extent they knew MK. The skill difference would be way too strong for a good period of time and if Mekos is good enough, he can keep the skill difference there by learning just as fast as the people needing to learn a whole new character.

I am the 1%

Edit: Done editing. I have a fetish for that edit button.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I'm really curious where you disagree? The few times MK/Pika has happened at top level it... wasn't pretty. Ant1 (who to the best of my knowledge doesn't really have that much high, and no top level experience vs Pika) vs Es4m wasn't particularly... well even looking. Sure, es4m messed up a lock, but even despite that, even with Ant1's lack of MU knowledge (especially compared to Es4m's), Ant1 beat es4m well enough and demonstrated that MK wins the MU; especially when MK gets any kind of noticeable lead. Then M2K beat Es4m enough to knock him off of Pika and to IC.
Before you reference Tyrant (who is notorious for being bad against a lot of characters and has- actually probably zero MU exp) vs Es4m, I do not believe that to be a good representation of the MU.

As for Ice Climbers, I believe- as do many others- that even on FD IC loses to MK and is even at best for IC. But given the fact that FD will be banned by MK in that MU, MK certainly has a winning MU with IC.

I don't believe there is anything remotely close to an argument that IC/pika beat Falco.

Then, especially assuming a LGL, it's fairly commonly accepted that Falco has one of the better MUs with MK.

To be completely honest, I don't see anything in Ripple's post that is very far from the truth, even assuming that it isn't completely accurate. I don't see how you can refute a post that contains information that is largely considered to be true by most players (sans M2K because, while I like the guy, I don't adhere to his opinion of MUs by any stretch of the imagination) by just saying "no." If you would be so kind as to give evidence as to why you believe the commonly thought MU "numbers" are wrong, please demonstrate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MOLtluin7I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhwg8Q1I_SI

He does have Pikachu experience. Same with M2K

 

[C.J.]

Alright, my mistake. He has limited MU experience. Still nothing remotely close to the experience Es4m has in that MU. And you have to remember that MU "ratios" are supposed to be based on equal knowledge of the MU.
My argument is still valid. Additionally, I'd appreciate a thorough answer to an argument presented to you instead of nitpicking at a specific point that was inaccurate although the main point of the argument is still valid (the quantity of the MU exp is completely different).
As for M2K having MU exp, I was aware. Thus why I didn't mention that aspect of all and instead talked about the fact that he forced Es4m off of Pika and onto IC.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Alright, my mistake. He has limited MU experience. Still nothing remotely close to the experience Es4m has in that MU. And you have to remember that MU "ratios" are supposed to be based on equal knowledge of the MU.
My argument is still valid. Additionally, I'd appreciate a thorough answer to an argument presented to you instead of nitpicking at a specific point that was inaccurate although the main point of the argument is still valid (the quantity of the MU exp is completely different).
As for M2K having MU exp, I was aware. Thus why I didn't mention that aspect of all and instead talked about the fact that he forced Es4m off of Pika and onto IC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qow1oYrUZxQ

All I'm saying is that he gets more practice in the match up than you think (pretty sure that's Anti and Anther)

 

[Dabuz]

That was actually anti playing pikachu.


*leaves*

 

[SaveMeJebus]

It is? Because I remember him making a blog on AIB saying that Anther came back and I was sure that was it. I wasn't 100% sure though

 

[Jack Kieser]

dabuz, have I ever told you how much I love your avatar? ...because, I do.

*leaves*

 

[Ripple]

we've gone over why "unbeatable" is stupid criteria

 

[Mekos]

I don't get this logic. You say pro ban is selfish and even the top players just want MK banned to make things easier on themselves? The same could be said about anti-ban, even the ones who don't main MK. For example, I know Mekos is anti-ban. Maybe he just wants to make sure Marth isn't prevalent enough to ruin his chances of winning? You really as just speculating on people's motives without looking at your own.

Anyone could ignorantly just make up a logical reason that the other side is being selfish.

For ****'s sake, you can't argue selfishness as 24% of the community trying to overpower 76%.

no not at all. I'm just the type of player that doesn't make excuses for why I lose. I used to be like many of you and just blame my loss on my opponents character like mk. I used to think there is nothing I can do. I have seen all the options and he has the advantage every time. I even told myself I would always focus on dubs and lucas can't do well in singles.

Then one day I stopped making excuses and took responsibility for my loss. I analyzed my matches and looked at what I was doing wrong. I worked on perfecting all of lucas advanced techniques and created some of my own. I made new mixups and created tactic specific for different stages. Lastly, I asked top players what I was doing wrong and they told me about my habits. I then realized that everyone has habits and that is the key to brawl. Learning your opponents habits and punishing them for it. This is called reading and after Clash 1 I gained the ability to read extremely well.

Don't tell me that I am anti-ban because I want mk to take out other matchups. That is a ***** move. I put in hard work and I see the results. I am very comfortable with any matchup. Even hard match ups like snake or marth or dk, I know their is a chance because smash is a mental game, not who picks the better character.

At genesis 2 I got ***** by m2k and couldn't even touch him. At clash 1 we went back and forth. At pound 5 Esam ***** me. Just recently I beat him in WF. That is what we mean by GET BETTER. But no! Most of you all just cry that extremely smart and technically skilled mks are winning tourneys(anti, m2k, etc). The mentality and drive behind this ban is ugly. If your losing to pocket mks who mostly have the same generic playstyle then u need to look in the mirror and check your skills.

I guarantee if we pull up most people game play between months u wont see a change in their game play yet they want to cry over mk. When watching most people get wrecked by mk they don't even have diing well down correctly yet. Ugh I'm done.

Anyways, I love seeing smashers get better like Nicole, Fow, and myself. If you compare vids month to month u see advances in playstyle. The growth I see is amazing. If it were not for mk I would have never even got to the level I am at now.

 

[Player-1]

yeah mekos isn't the kind of person to say he wants MK to be banned just so more marths don't rise up, especially when he's beaten top marths.

 

[C.J.]

Mekos, while that is all highly commendable and impressive, there is one thing about your argument that is just wrong. You are arguing about player ability (you even talk about reading other players). You have to argue within the confines of the game and ignore player ability. I'm not saying you're wrong, people do need to get better and change their style, but you need to separate something from outside the game (anything involving players such as habits, reading, etc) from something within the confines of the game (the actual things that need to be argued about such as tools, degenerate tactics, etc).

 

[Xyro77]

saw the video. typical anti ban stuff. they will say/do whatever it takes to keep him legal.

 

[The calm tyrant...]

Mekos, while that is all highly commendable and impressive, there is one thing about your argument that is just wrong. You are arguing about player ability (you even talk about reading other players). You have to argue within the confines of the game and ignore player ability. I'm not saying you're wrong, people do need to get better and change their style, but you need to separate something from outside the game (anything involving players such as habits, reading, etc) from something within the confines of the game (the actual things that need to be argued about such as tools, degenerate tactics, etc).

Though i agree with most of this, i think it's also essential to remember that without the abilities of reading, memorizing habits, etc. that the game would've never evolved to what it is now, would've stayed primitive. I think it's pretty dire to include all aspects (interior and exterior) when you're trying to Ban a character in the game, because all of these factors matter, and are the reasons why you see such over-centralization from mk. This game has a high learning curve sadly, creativity plus a sharp mind is essential to success. Especially since we want to cater to such a stage list, that you'll usually see mk on, LOL.

 

[Tesh]

yeah mekos isn't the kind of person to say he wants MK to be banned just so more marths don't rise up, especially when he's beaten top marths.

Aside from the fact that he was complaining about infinites a little while ago, I know he is a good player willing to rise up and meet a challenge. But I was just pointing out an example, as tommy said pro bans all just want an easier ride to the top. Its really just a dumb argument to just call other people selfish. Anyone could vote either way for selfish reasons.

 

[Blacknight99923]

Though i agree with most of this, i think it's also essential to remember that without the abilities of reading, memorizing habits, etc. that the game would've never evolved to what it is now, would've stayed primitive. I think it's pretty dire to include all aspects (interior and exterior) when you're trying to Ban a character in the game, because all of these factors matter, and are the reasons why you see such over-centralization from mk. This game has a high learning curve sadly, creativity plus a sharp mind is essential to success. Especially since we want to cater to such a stage list, that you'll usually see mk on, LOL.

change your name to the Patient Tyrant.



and this post is amazing.

 

[Mekos]

@Tesh - It;s funny u mention that because what was the outcome? After the URC made it obvious they wouldn't change anything I said that was fine AND I WILL CHANGE AND DO WHAT IT TAKES TO GET WIN ANYWAYS. I will not say an infninite is an excuse why I lose.

@everyone else - I'm with Tyrant. U have to factor in player ability or else u mine as well have computers go at it for our tier list.

For example all of Ness' moves have more priority than lucas and in the past facing Fow I knew the matchup was highly in his favor. When Ness gets a pikafire off on lucas it is at least 60% damage. But after watching I think Razor one day. I saw that he smash di the pikafire. U no what I learned from that and do now! I bait a ness' pikafire, smash di it, and absorb it and heal like 50% damage. With good spacing and smash di I feel the match up is now even or in lucas' favor!

Another example. Falco chain grab across the stage to spike is deadly for lucas. But with the zap jump mastered it is not that big of a deal. The matchup is not nearly as bad.

That is my point. People have not mastered things such as DI, SDI, and how to read the opponent. If u don't include these things then u are just talking about robots playing each other. Smash is such a mental game and people need to realize this. People are crying because they are going autopilot with the few techniques they have mastered and it is failing.

U have to include the mind and ability my friend. I've created a new lucas, mastered the basics, and feel I've taken him out of low tier because matchups that were so terrible without my new skills aren't nearly as bad anymore now. I EVEN FEEL MK VS LUCAS IS an EVEN matchup.

People like xyro say no its just because they havn't figured out my playstyle. NO!! I play to my opponent. Based off of his habits is what I will do. If a mk is going to sit and tornado all day. I will sit and beat it with pika fire all day!! Lets go!!

 

[cHp]

There's a difference between being good at a match-up and the match-up being even. Just saying.

 

[Cassio]

I'm really curious where you disagree? The few times MK/Pika has happened at top level it... wasn't pretty. Ant1 (who to the best of my knowledge doesn't really have that much high, and no top level experience vs Pika) vs Es4m wasn't particularly... well even looking. Sure, es4m messed up a lock, but even despite that, even with Ant1's lack of MU knowledge (especially compared to Es4m's), Ant1 beat es4m well enough and demonstrated that MK wins the MU; especially when MK gets any kind of noticeable lead. Then M2K beat Es4m enough to knock him off of Pika and to IC.
Before you reference Tyrant (who is notorious for being bad against a lot of characters and has- actually probably zero MU exp) vs Es4m, I do not believe that to be a good representation of the MU.

As for Ice Climbers, I believe- as do many others- that even on FD IC loses to MK and is even at best for IC. But given the fact that FD will be banned by MK in that MU, MK certainly has a winning MU with IC.

I don't believe there is anything remotely close to an argument that IC/pika beat Falco.

Then, especially assuming a LGL, it's fairly commonly accepted that Falco has one of the better MUs with MK.

To be completely honest, I don't see anything in Ripple's post that is very far from the truth, even assuming that it isn't completely accurate. I don't see how you can refute a post that contains information that is largely considered to be true by most players (sans M2K because, while I like the guy, I don't adhere to his opinion of MUs by any stretch of the imagination) by just saying "no." If you would be so kind as to give evidence as to why you believe the commonly thought MU "numbers" are wrong, please demonstrate.

I'm not even sure where to begin with this post, but this isnt really the place for it, and not the thread Id prefer to discuss it in since I could go on for quite awhile before even touching on the ratio. I understand youre asking for clarification so Im not really knocking the post, but for now Ill just say youre correct in being hesitant about your assumptions.

Anyways, my issue with ripples post was that he said MK beats ICs and pika conisderably, and that falco does horridly vs Pika and ICs. I dont think anyone well informed on these MUs would agree with those statements.

As far as falco vs pika goes, in the current metagame its really not that bad for falco. Its still his worst MU but its doable. That could change in the future, but it is what it is for now.

And dabuz that actually was anther in the video, he still plays wifi once in a blue moon.

 

[Mekos]

@cHp - Not only for smash but for anything in life. Wants u reach a certain level of skill, what u are doing is almost like in slow motion. U can sense everything and and have great "field vision".
For example, have u ever played a sport consistently like basketball and u just know when the ball is going in the hoop. That feeling is part of what I'm talking about.

In smash I feel I have reached that level in skill and when I play top mk's such as M2k, Nairo, and ANti I can feel the match. When I lose, I know exactly where I went wrong and could have done better. Nairo vs Me is not up but in that match u can see its a match solely based on who had the momentum and not just domination. At top level play in anything it is about who has the momentum because skill level is not infinite.

Sorry if that is confusing. For example, in halo 2, at the top level most of us pros were all around the same skill level. The team that won was the team that had the better tactics, strats, and didn't choke under pressure. I feel my lucas is like that when fighting mks. And I faced the top mks.

I do feel I am good at the match up tho haha. But if I am able to do it then others can too if they gain the abilities I have. So in the end u could call it even if one player can make it that way. Or should we cater to the majority?

 

[Cygnet]

Agreed heavily with Tyrant and Mekos (even though I'm not a pro player like they are at all, so my opinion is less than valid.).

Especially because Mekos makes it clear that player skill and ability DIRECTLY AFFECT what we consider to be things in the game. Without individual player skill, we would've have discovered all this stuff that was already in the game or how to properly use it. SDI always existed in the game, but player skill allowed Mekos to properly use it to turn MUs in his advantage, and without considering player skill, we're missing a large part of the actual game as well.

(Now because I didn't actually add to the conversation,) There's a lot of intelligent (and maybe some less than intelligent) conversation going on, but what would it REALLY take to change someone's mind? It doesn't look like either side is budging at this point, but then again, a year ago, it looked like MK would just be legal forever or something like that; what happened to cause this sudden shift and.... IS IT POSSIBLE for anti-ban to shift it back? What does it take?

Cause after all these pages, it doesn't seem like that much was resolved, although a lot of arguing has happened in between.

 

[Judo777]

Let's pretend you were a top player and didn't main MK. Even if you didn't think MK was bannable, why wouldn't you agree with it. You're playing to win and if tbe most popular character gets banned, then that's more people that have to get good again with a character they don't usually play with, not because it's not MK.

It's so disgusting really.

Now I know I'm not a top player, hell I haven't entered tournaments in a while even though I've been to them. I main Falco so the MK ban would do nothing but benefit me personally, but I know he's not good enough be banned for that simple reason. His character make-up is good, but managable.

Let's pretend you were a top player and didn't main MK.

If this is so then you obviously second him lol. Also I hate the whole play to win mentality but I'll go with it anyway.

If you are REALLY playing to win, so much so that you will by pass what you may think is right to benefit you........ then you don't fit into the category of not playing MK because you would have to. If you are REALLY playing to win, you are playing MK.

 

[Tommy_G]

I have never played MK in a tournament match.

They could be playing their character because that's who they like to play...If an opportunity arises that can remove many good players from preventing people from winning, then why wouldn't anyone agree to it. Playing to win doesn't mean playing MK. Everyone who pulls out a pocket MK against anyone competent with their character gets destroyed.

 

[Judo777]

I have never played MK in a tournament match.

They could be playing their character because that's who they like to play...If an opportunity arises that can remove many good players from preventing people from winning, then why wouldn't anyone agree to it. Playing to win doesn't mean playing MK. Everyone who pulls out a pocket MK against anyone competent with their character gets destroyed.

Intentionally handicapping yourself with a character that isn't as good as MK is not playing to win. Yea you can play the character you want. You can also choose to not play "gay" and cg people or plank them or whatever. But if you decide that....... you aren't playing to win.

And my joke was that all top level players main or second MK (obviously a joke although its pretty much true).

 

[theunabletable]

Sometimes playing gay and choosing things that at the surface should increase your chances of winning could hurt your mindset enough that it'd be, in effect, worse than doing something different.

Who are you to say that you know what the best thing someone else could be doing? Sure you might, but to make such a generalized statement like "If you don't play MK you're intentionally handicapping yourself, therefore you're not playing to win" is very narrow.

It might not be intentionally handicapping themselves for that person.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Battousai780]

Also I hate the whole play to win mentality but I'll go with it anyway..

Get out. Your opinion about MK's legality is nullified. In a scene based around competitiveness and banning MK to supposedly make it more competitive, if you aren't playing to win, you are not playing Brawl correctly.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

tommy g exposing dat low iq

 

[Ghostbone]

How about disproving me with actual information or notible player testimonial and a factual basis instead of just calling me wrong. Maybe your posts will actually be worth creating a rebuttal, but as of right now, all I see is 5 year old screaming "NO NO NO."

It's not worth calling out how wrong you are if you can respect me enough to put out some kind of evidence to back up your claim.

Calm yo farm boi, it's not like you're providing any valid justification

So anyway
Pika loses to MK, there's a reason ESAM goes Ice Climbers against MK, even though that's pretty much agreed to be their worst match-up (go ask IC mains, idk maybe Toon Link's worse or something lol)

As for Snake vs IC, see Vinnie vs Ally Concentrate 2, and again, actually talk to the IC mains.

Falco's definitely closer to even with MK than most characters (Diddy and maybe Snake are closer?)

It's pretty much assured he'll go down a spot or two eventually with MK banned....

Sometimes playing gay and choosing things that at the surface should increase your chances of winning could hurt your mindset enough that it'd be, in effect, worse than doing something different.

Who are you to say that you know what the best thing someone else could be doing? Sure you might, but to make such a generalized statement like "If you don't play MK you're intentionally handicapping yourself, therefore you're not playing to win" is very narrow.

It might not be intentionally handicapping themselves for that person.

This is something I mostly agree with.
There's a difference between playing to learn and playing to win, unless you're like, top 10 status, you should be playing to learn rather than to win.
Though not having at least an MK secondary is definitely intentionally handicapping yourself, and that's part of the reason I think he's ruining tournament hype and competitive mindsets, as the game just isn't enjoyable when you know that you could be doing better playing MK, but you just don't want to play a game centralised around him.

Edit: And what is with anti-ban always feeling the need to make needlessly aggressive and *****y posts? lol
Like, there's no need to constantly call the other side scrubs and attribute malice to them in an argument.

 

[Judo777]

Get out. Your opinion about MK's legality is nullified. In a scene based around competitiveness and banning MK to supposedly make it more competitive, if you aren't playing to win, you are not playing Brawl correctly.

BS...... there is ALOOOOT of stuff you can do to play to win that people don't do. There is believe it or not a limit on how far playing to win holds. The fact that this limit is completely subjective immediately illustrates that is in fact not concrete.

Playing Brawl in a tournament setting reaches much farther than just inside the game. Good players realize this. Going to a tournament is also about watching other people outside of matches, trying to play your games when you are ready and when you think your opponent might not be, sandbagging in friendlies prior can play a part. There are a lot of external factors that can be included in a tournament setting and these are also very easily exploitable.

There are many factors that are very dirty that can lead to a win which doesn't mean they should be exploited. Take for instance a match where one player does things to intentionally try to get their opponent to pause. Something that comes to mind was a match Will was in when the standing infinite was banned at MLG. Someone small step chain grabbed him making it look like a standing infinite, then pointed out that in about 5 seconds the match would go over 3 minutes and the replay could not be saved. Will paused in an attempt to prove the CG. Upon further review it was not and he was DQed. The other player was playing to win, does that mean we should always do stuff like that? no.

If I really wanted to win at a Brawl tournament I might not take a shower for a month prior. If I wreaked really badly while playing that could definitely distract some people mid match giving me and edge, play to win right?

This trick would no longer work but I thought of it when someone did something similar. Last stock someone rage quitted on me when I was at 0%. They unplugged their controller and walked away. I was careful about this and knocked him offstage and won, HOWEVER I know many people might just pause reset right then and there. If that player walked back around right after or someone else was watching they could call "PAUSE DQ" and take the game even tho they unplugged their controller and left. Pretty smart if you ask me but it doesn't mean you should.

Play to win in the common context is subjective so you can't even pretend that it is a factual basis for any claims you make.

@Masky there is a difference between what you said and what I said tho. You are implying that everyone is capable of playing like 10 characters. Some people simply aren't good to remember important stuff with every character or have the time to pick them all up. However playing JUST ONE character is something that most people can do. More so it is usually thought best to focus on one main before branching off.

So not playing MK is not playing to win since MK is the best character and is the best choice at the character select screen. You are intentionally choosing not optimally at the character select screen by not picking MK (assuming you can only play one character).

 

[Player-1]

Falco's definitely closer to even with MK than most characters (Diddy and maybe Snake are closer?)

No, Diddy loses pretty solidly and it's pretty much agreeable that it's Diddy's worst MU now (maybe snake). IMO Falco and Pika do the best against MK.

 

[Gnes]

It's either that or all of you guys have terrible ideas on what the proper criteria for a ban is. I'd rather like to think you were competent intellectuals though.

Inherently calling anyone who's pro-ban incompetent won't strengthen your argument. Regardless to YOUR criteria of a ban, we've played in this metagame for years, and literally struggled against character that at any time can just choose not to approach and place himself into extremely low risk high reward situations. Any combination of Planking/Scrooging/Ledge Camping is literally gamebreaking, and the rules haven't done anything but slightly mediate the process if anything. I don't know why you/other people keep saying "mk is beatable, so can't be ban worthy." OBVIOUSLY he's beatable, what kind of statement is that? If the mk feels like actually playing the game right, he won't lose.

And for the record, the mk ban hurts diddy more than it helps him. Funny considering mk is his worst matchup by far.

 

[KageMurphy]

GNES just doesn't want Dojo to take the TX throne back, smh.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

By Judo's ****ty logic, people should be picking up Diddy after the ban because of his strong match-ups.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Flayl]

Diddy loses slightly to Wario and Snake (at least that's the consensus the players of those characters reached).

 

[Cassio]

we've played in this metagame for years, and literally struggled against character that at any time can just choose not to approach and place himself into extremely low risk high reward situations. Any combination of Planking/Scrooging/Ledge Camping is literally gamebreaking, and the rules haven't done anything but slightly mediate the process if anything...If the mk feels like actually playing the game right, he won't lose.

lol, this is said entirely through the context of a diddy main, so you cant really call it game breaking. Not to mention there werent that many rules in place, and the rules that were put in place could have been much better and more affective. Whether such rules should exist is arguable, but you can't honestly say many rules were created to alleviate the issue aside from a relatively high lgl and even that took a while. Some people asked for more and said they should exist, but it was never really done.

Also through anecdotal evidence it sounds as if youre in a clear minority here. Most pros who've called for MKs ban state they simply think the game will be more entertaining, want to see what the game is like without MK, or believe it might bring back people/keep people in the community; while not believing he breaks the game.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Diddy loses slightly to Wario and Snake (at least that's the consensus the players of those characters reached).

I didn't know that, Flayl. Thanks.

My point still stands. I was just waxing hyperbole. I just don't think Judo's logic in that is sound at all.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Tommy_G]

Calm yo farm boi, it's not like you're providing any valid justification
I've said much more than you have. I guess a matchup thread isn't valid justification enough for someone with enough willpower to get MK banned. Ignorance is bliss.
So anyway
Pika loses to MK, there's a reason ESAM goes Ice Climbers against MK, even though that's pretty much agreed to be their worst match-up (go ask IC mains, idk maybe Toon Link's worse or something lol)
Esam's Pikachu ALWAYS beat Seibrik's MK. Esam just wanted to learn IC so he picked them up.
As for Snake vs IC, see Vinnie vs Ally Concentrate 2, and again, actually talk to the IC mains.
1 match doesn't prove a matchup. See ADHD vs M2K to show Diddy has an advantageous matchup on MK.
Falco's definitely closer to even with MK than most characters (Diddy and maybe Snake are closer?)
I don't see the relevance.
It's pretty much assured he'll go down a spot or two eventually with MK banned....
He was going to go down a few spots regardless once people learn how to exploit the match-up.

Edit: And what is with anti-ban always feeling the need to make needlessly aggressive and *****y posts? lol
I'm not surprised of a pro-ban saying something like this. This is the logic and the arguments you all have been using ever since Brawl came out. You can' t even respect my opinion and argument enough to post some physical data to support your claims.

I can't tell if I'm being trolled anymore.

10greenfonts

Btw Gnes, once people learn to plank with more characters, it'll make others a ton less viable and it'll show how broken the technique is rather than the character. Pit can scrooge too. It's clearly a stalling technique that should be banned.

I've been saying this for so long. GET BETTER. Learn the character instead of complaining to the point where he gets banned.

 

[WindMajor]

lol, this is said entirely through the context of a diddy main, so you cant really call it game breaking.

I feel stereotyped for Gnes.

Also through anecdotal evidence it sounds as if youre in a clear minority here. Most pros who've called for MKs ban state they simply think the game will be more entertaining, want to see what the game is like without MK, or believe it might bring back people/keep people in the community; while not believing he breaks the game.

Where's your proof? Give me exact numbers. Until then, your point is invalid.

Btw Gnes, once people learn to plank with more characters, it'll make others a ton less viable and it'll show how broken the technique is rather than the character. Pit can scrooge too. It's clearly a stalling technique that should be banned.

Um... no it's not. Scrooging falls under running away, not stalling.

I've been saying this for so long. GET BETTER. Learn the character instead of complaining to the point where he gets banned.

Under this logic, every stage in the game, and every fighting game character ever should be legal. Ivan Ooze? He's beatable, just get better.

 

[ElDominio]

And to add to the ""Pit can scrooge" counterargunment, I play a Pit (usually daily) and if he scrooges like more than three times, I usually punish him, and pretty badly too.
I main Sonic.