A URC members thoughts on the Metaknight Ban

[Nairo]

that 1 mk ban poll in the past saying its the final decision wat ever happened to that lol

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

They changed their minds.

 

[Tommy_G]

True, but if you find yourself in the water for whatever reason when it shows up... you're dead. Staring at the clock like that (for the :03 and the :... something mark) is kinda unreasonable given that no other stage requires you to split your attention so much to avoid instant death.

So it requires you to be self aware and not put yourself into positions where the opponent can take advantage of a stage gimmick.....hmm where have I seen that before... oh wait, what about the wall infinites on rainbow or pkmn stadium, or the walk offs on delfino, or getting chain spiked in the water on delfino.
Falco doesn't get any more of an advantage on that stage than Ness or Snake. You can DI the spike back onto the stage or tech it if your DI isn't fast enough. There's a video on it by VGBC.
Game mechanic we haven't understood yet? So as far as we know, it could be random. Either way, I'd rather have a stage kill me in a way I could have predicted rather than not predicted. It could be a single frame where something goes wrong and it would feel like losing for tripping...

Because we need more of that.

 

[Nairo]

thas mad dumb LOL XD

 

[Player-1]

Well MikeHaze doesn't want me to be serious so I'm going to respect his opinion since it's his thread and just troll.


melee is a bad party game, no need 2 follow der examples. RC obv da bess since it has triple rainbows instead of double rainbows. Casio is the new jebus.

oh yeah i almost forgot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtlTUXtq_24#t=05m05s

 

[Nairo]

player1 u bad shhhhh

 

[Player-1]

nario your like 12 stfu.

 

[Nairo]

o then 12 yr old better than u y

 

[Player-1]

cuz im 10.

 

[Nairo]

o fair enough :I

 

[Jun.]

Well MikeHaze doesn't want me to be serious so I'm going to respect his opinion since it's his thread and just troll.


melee is a bad party game, no need 2 follow der examples. RC obv da bess since it has triple rainbows instead of double rainbows. Casio is the new jebus.

oh yeah i almost forgot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtlTUXtq_24#t=05m05s

Can anyone in the Brawl community tell me how this kid is in the URC?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Can anyone in the Brawl community tell me how this kid is in the URC?

He hosts "big" tourneys in Georgia.

Oh, and he's on their PR.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Player-1]

Can anyone in the Brawl community tell me how this kid is in the URC?

should I be serious or no? MikeHaze doesn't me to take ruleset changes seriously and I guess he thinks it's better if we all just took it as a joke.

 

[deepseadiva]

You're a joke of an authority figure.

 

[Player-1]

Personal attacks, cool

 

[Schtizzel]

Let's protest against the huge power of the URC.

Occupy URC​

Shameless bump for this glorious post xD.

 

[deepseadiva]

Personal attacks, cool

No. I'm sure you're a beautiful person and tournament organizer.

But as part of a supposedly credible committee, you're an awful representative. You seem unqualified if that's how poor your responses are.

 

[Hive]

Even if you guys swayed the URC to reverse its vote you would just be the very thing you hated in the first place, a small group of people that is using an organization to push a general ruleset on the community, even moreso because the community, organized bodies like the BBC, and polls of the top players all show that people strongly want mk gone so you'd be promoting something that was not a reflection of the community's desires. The real issue is the community's perception of mk's strength, not as much the URC backing it.
(oh and 11% general usage doesn't prove as much as you'd like it too concerning whether or not a character is overpowerd, try looking at how its represented in relation to how effective it is)

 

[Cassio]

Even if you guys swayed the URC to reverse its vote you would just be the very thing you hated in the first place, a small minority of people that is using an organization to push a general ruleset on the community, even moreso because the community, organized bodies like the BBC, and polls of the top players all show that people strongly want mk gone so you'd be promoting something that was not a reflection of the community's desires. The real issue is the community mentality, not as much the URC backing it.

Those numbers were wrong in the first place. Although Ill be nice and say at best theyre unusable.

 

[Player-1]

I've had good thought answers for the past 20+ pages being open about my opinion and make one bad post and I'm unqualified? Okay, at least Im better than some people that make videos filled with incorrect facts and manipulated them then when he gets called out on them fails to even post a response then goes and post as their FB status "lol this guys arguments are dumb" with no backing at all instead of trying to reason with ppl instead

 

[Ripple]

I've had good thought answers for the past 20+ pages being open about my opinion and make one bad post and I'm unqualified? Okay, at least Im better than some people that make videos filled with incorrect facts and manipulated them then when he gets called out on them fails to even post a response then goes and post as their FB status "lol this guys arguments are dumb" with no backing at all instead of trying to reason with ppl instead

don't worry about the video, me, John#s, and bionic are working on a video to clear things up

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Maybe he thinks he should be banned for other reasons and not the reasons everyone else has stated

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Personal attacks, cool

To be fair, your conduct with M2K isn't much better. He may not communicate things very clearly, but they are in no way incomprehensible.

I've had good thought answers for the past 20+ pages being open about my opinion and make one bad post and I'm unqualified? Okay, at least Im better than some people that make videos filled with incorrect facts and manipulated them then when he gets called out on them fails to even post a response then goes and post as their FB status "lol this guys arguments are dumb" with no backing at all instead of trying to reason with ppl instead

This, however, is pretty legit. He probably missed my post about the significance of those numbers. Though my project to 'correct those' is long from complete, so there isn't much I can do right now.

 

[Player-1]

To be fair, your conduct with M2K isn't much better. He may not communicate things very clearly, but they are in no way incomprehensible.



This, however, is pretty legit. He probably missed my post about the significance of those numbers. Though my project to 'correct those' is long from complete, so there isn't much I can do right now.

What conduct? Calling one post bad? That's not a personal attack. I even took the liberty to IM M2K like a week ago to tell him I have no personal grudges or anything against him because when he stayed full month in GA and I saw him like every weekend of that month and he was a pretty chill guy from what I could tell and I enjoyed talking to him whiel he was here and that like anything posted on the forums was just my opinion and if it disagrees with his then oh well.

 

[Tommy_G]

And I win the stage argument again, yet Jungle Japes continues to be banned...

 

[Player-1]

this isn't a stage discussion thread, maybe you should go make a thread in the stage discussion forum so arguments can actually go more in depth without going off topic.

 

[Orion*]

This is what pisses me off. None of these numbers were ever brought up and people had to find it themselves. This ish is so stupid. Community gauged everything on a bunch of numbers they probably didnt even attempt to read, let alone understand.

This community pisses me off. How freakin sketchy is this. And the whole damn URC claimed they banned MK cuz he was over-centralized. THIS is why people mock our community. Because instead of getting together and learning about this game, instead of attempting to learn tactics even though tech skill is needed, instead of knowing MUs in a fighting game, everyone sits and complains. People write idiotic blogs about furries, male players assault women in the community, and everyone is so damn conceited about being good at the game that they flat out reject the effort top MK players have put into this game. People flat out reject the discussions M2K, Ally, Anti, Tyrant have in order to better the character. This is seriously freakin stupid. Wake up Brawl community; you have what could be a decent game going to **** because you made it so. Dont blame MK; blame yourselves.

Black Power

 

[KirbyKaze]

We also know that Melee Sheik, much like Melee Fox rarely wins anything of significance. I think Sheik probably wins less actually...

KirbyKaze?

Sheik is a great character. Her handlers just suck giant monkey nuts at Super Smash Bros. Melee for the Nintendo GameCube except for like 5 people (if that).

 

[Cygnet]

Even though this isn't the stage thread, aren't the problems of RC/Brinstar and MK undeniably related?

I don't think Brinstar or RC should be banned because of randomness or anything like that, but just because the stage is so polarizing that the stage itself overpowers characters. When you CP someone to these stages, the advantage (or disadvantage) is large enough so that the game becomes a matter of "who can deal with the stage better" rather than "who is the better player."

I guess you could say that about PS1 or PS2 too, but RC and Brinstar are so powerful that they force some people to pick up totally new characters just to deal with them. (Although it's probably just IC mains though.) The stage totally gobbles up whatever skill you have with some characters, which begs for a ban (IMO) because the game should really focus on who has more skill with their respective character, not who can deal with whatever stage better. Independent of whoever the other person chooses, if you're ICs and you get CPed to one of those two stages, it's not going to work out, even with whatever amount of skill you have, which cannot be said about PS1 or PS2.

That said, how menacing is MK really without those stages? (Not suggesting that it's low enough to warrant an unban, but I think it's certainly significantly lower with a more even playing field.)

(Disclaimer: I am not and do not claim to be a pro player in any sense of the word and therefore, my opinions may not be valid as that of others. And I posted this before but I think it was ignored?)

 

[Player-1]

yeah RC and Brinstar are related with MK, but Japes really isn't related that much with MK and should probably be redirected to the stage discussion forum

 

[mikeHAZE]

i made the thread and i do not mind the stage discussion as it is relevant to current and future content.

Carry on.

Even though this isn't the stage thread, aren't the problems of RC/Brinstar and MK undeniably related?

I don't think Brinstar or RC should be banned because of randomness or anything like that, but just because the stage is so polarizing that the stage itself overpowers characters. When you CP someone to these stages, the advantage (or disadvantage) is large enough so that the game becomes a matter of "who can deal with the stage better" rather than "who is the better player."

I guess you could say that about PS1 or PS2 too, but RC and Brinstar are so powerful that they force some people to pick up totally new characters just to deal with them. (Although it's probably just IC mains though.) The stage totally gobbles up whatever skill you have with some characters, which begs for a ban (IMO) because the game should really focus on who has more skill with their respective character, not who can deal with whatever stage better. Independent of whoever the other person chooses, if you're ICs and you get CPed to one of those two stages, it's not going to work out, even with whatever amount of skill you have, which cannot be said about PS1 or PS2.

That said, how menacing is MK really without those stages? (Not suggesting that it's low enough to warrant an unban, but I think it's certainly significantly lower with a more even playing field.)

(Disclaimer: I am not and do not claim to be a pro player in any sense of the word and therefore, my opinions may not be valid as that of others. And I posted this before but I think it was ignored?)

Great post by the way.

 

[Tesh]

As far as Brinstar/RC, most of the cast doesn't really have to switch out to deal with the stage imo. Alot of characters like Brinstar (as long as they aren't fighting someone that likes it more, like ). The same goes for FD. I can tell you Sonic, Diddy, ICs all like it there, but put any pair of those characters there and one of them will probably hate it.

I recent tournament in spain had MK banned only on CP stages. I suggested this multiple times. RC/Brinstar are not broken. There is no reason to disallow other characters from using those stages. ICs and (to a lesser extent) Olimar are glass cannons that excel on only a few stages that minimize their weaknesses. They shouldn't really matter more than the rest of the cast.

My #1 problem with anti-ban's MK solutions is putting extra burdens on the entire cast to fix MK. MK is clearly the only thing breaking all of these different parts of the game and any solutions should only apply to him.

 

[Flayl]

That was France, not Spain.

 

[Player-1]

I don't think Brinstar or RC should be banned because of randomness or anything like that, but just because the stage is so polarizing that the stage itself overpowers characters. When you CP someone to these stages, the advantage (or disadvantage) is large enough so that the game becomes a matter of "who can deal with the stage better" rather than "who is the better player."

They're not really that polarizing if you actually take the time to learn the stage. Being able to "deal with a stage" (if that's what you want to call it) is part of being a better player. I could just as easily say battlefield is a matter of who can deal with the stage (platforms) better, but platform control (which is a stage element) is part of being a better player.

I guess you could say that about PS1 or PS2 too, but RC and Brinstar are so powerful that they force some people to pick up totally new characters just to deal with them. (Although it's probably just IC mains though.) The stage totally gobbles up whatever skill you have with some characters, which begs for a ban (IMO) because the game should really focus on who has more skill with their respective character, not who can deal with whatever stage better. Independent of whoever the other person chooses, if you're ICs and you get CPed to one of those two stages, it's not going to work out, even with whatever amount of skill you have, which cannot be said about PS1 or PS2.

They don't really force anyone to pick up a totally new character. ICs can deal with RC just fine (Meep, who was considered the best ICs at a time, liked the stage). RC forces people to pick up a new character just as much as FD does.

And, again, stage knowledge/skill is a factor in determining player skill, they're not independent of one another.

That said, how menacing is MK really without those stages? (Not suggesting that it's low enough to warrant an unban, but I think it's certainly significantly lower with a more even playing field.)

(Disclaimer: I am not and do not claim to be a pro player in any sense of the word and therefore, my opinions may not be valid as that of others. And I posted this before but I think it was ignored?)

Menacing? I'm not sure if I know what you mean by that. Do you mean how broken he is? Or how bannable he is? Broken, I guess he'd be a bit less broken, but not by a whole bunch. Esam, who is the best pikachu, has told me that he actually likes playing on RC against MKs. Ktar6 (as well as other stages) which had brinstar banned still showed a bunch of MK dominance. If you're talking about how bannable he is then he's just as bannable with or without the stages in my opinion since my vote to ban him had nothing really to do with the stage list.


edit: And I'm only talking about RC. Brinstar is borderline bannable IMO.

 

[Cygnet]

It's true that most of the cast doesn't have to switch to a new character to deal with the stage. But discounting characters and looking at people, a lot of people have had to switch characters to deal with RC/Brinstar, notably IC mains and probably Marth mains to MK, including Mikehaze, among others, which I don't know all that well because I'm not an experienced player. Well, maybe not a LOT of people, but a lot more than a stage should. (Just wondering, but do most people pick up/second MK because of matchups, stages, or what?)

Sonic, Diddy, and ICs love FD, but not to the point where the other character becomes sort of irrelevant (except maybe ICs and FD..... yowza.). In the case of MK and RC/Brinstar, the other character is sort of a moot point because of the sheer advantage that the stage confers onto MK. Of course, banning MK won't fix this because other characters enjoy a lesser, but still comparable advantage, like maybe Wario or Pit, or disadvantage, like ICs or even Marth (especially on RC). The problem lies mainly in the stages.

And perhaps neither is really truly broken. Maybe the brokenness really lies in the fact that there are two of them so you can't ban them both, whereas you can always ban FD against ICs or Falco or something.

You can always say that MKs have lost on RC/Brinstar and stuff like that, but the proportion of MKs who have lost to those who have won is a lot smaller than a similar ratio for other stages. (I think.... I don't have any hard data, but after hearing things and watching videos - fairly nonrepresentative data, it seems true?)

EDIT: Meant to be directed at Tesh, I didn't see Player-1's post above.

EDIT 2: After reading it, Player-1 makes an extremely good point..... I think he's right on this one. Although that would mean that no stage should be banned because we could just learn it, which is a part of skill..... which begs the question, why are stages banned? (Is there some sort of criteria?) Admittedly, the question strays a bit too far from the whole MK deal....

 

[Tesh]

Yea, sure alot of players have switched to MK for RC/Brinstar, but only because of MK. With MK gone, I doubt Mike would be switching from Marth for a GnW, Pit, Puff or Sonic that takes him to RC. People aren't switching because "oh god, this stage is gonna wreck me", the are switching because "oh god he is going MK on RC/Brinstar and its gonna be a nightmare".

ICs aren't going to be much better with those stages gone imo. They just can't handle a changing situation, even when its predictable. They will still struggle on Delfino, Frigate and other dynamic stages because they just have defined weaknesses in certain areas. Thats not a fault of RC/Brinstar.

 

[-Ran]

I've caught up on the thread, and I will continue to read it as more posts are done here; however, I don't have a response that I haven't already stated elsewhere.

 

[Player-1]

EDIT 2: After reading it, Player-1 makes an extremely good point..... I think he's right on this one. Although that would mean that no stage should be banned because we could just learn it, which is a part of skill..... which begs the question, why are stages banned? (Is there some sort of criteria?) Admittedly, the question strays a bit too far from the whole MK deal....

There are some things on stages that at some point become completely degenerative such as hyrule temple and circle camping. First person to get a hit virtually wins (character choice obviously matters to a degree) because they can just run away the rest of the game and can't be caught. Or there are stages like green greens where hazards are (falling blocks, bomb blocks) completely random or just happen way too fast for it to be accounted for (i.e. Halberd's bombs happen randomly, but gives you plenty enough time to take account for it and dodge easily). Some stages are completely random so they can't be learned and affect gameplay too much like wario ware unlike YIs ghost platforms that are random, but don't affect gameplay as much (not saying they don't affect gameplay, it's just minimal).

Rainbow doesn't have degenerative play (I suppose this could be argued, but I'd still disagree with it, and it's definitely not as bad as a stage like hyrule), nor does rainbow have hazards, nor is it random

Edit: Edits in red

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[mikeHAZE]

Yea, sure alot of players have switched to MK for RC/Brinstar, but only because of MK. With MK gone, I doubt Mike would be switching from Marth for a GnW, Pit, Puff or Sonic that takes him to RC. People aren't switching because "oh god, this stage is gonna wreck me", the are switching because "oh god he is going MK on RC/Brinstar and its gonna be a nightmare".

ICs aren't going to be much better with those stages gone imo. They just can't handle a changing situation, even when its predictable. They will still struggle on Delfino, Frigate and other dynamic stages because they just have defined weaknesses in certain areas. Thats not a fault of RC/Brinstar.

i'd probably go game and watch on rainbow/brinstar to be honest.