A URC members thoughts on the Metaknight Ban

[Schtizzel]

Let's protest against the huge power of the URC.

Occupy URC​

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Let's protest against the huge power of the URC.

Occupy URC​

Top ****ing tier post my friend.

 

[Juushichi]

... Eh.

Just hold your own tournaments. I generally support the URC's goal and have never co-hosted or hosted a URC tournament and don't plan to any time soon.

 

[Cassio]

Marc I think SFP's fallen into some form of neo-communism viewpoint hes blanket applying to the weirdest shiz. No offense SFP but arguing with an ideologue without support is a lost cause.

I mean, obviously DDD would gain a huge advantage because without obstruction he's essentially ALWAYS walk off camping (while avoiding the negative high risk part that degenerates gameplay on the stage). It doesn't change the fact that every character has walk-off camping capability, even against DDD. I would think that the dominant strategy against a DDD on such a level would be to walk off camp since approaching at any other situation skews the risk reward highly in his favor.

But regardless for Onett on Melee or Mushroom Kingdom on n64, I don't know the specific ban rationale the BR's used. What I do know is that our current ban* was more or less justified by the adv/disadv I listed. Those still exist in melee/n64 variants of smash, so I'm sure they would also apply to those stages as well by extension.

*Brawl's Ban on Walk-Off stages, not necessarily the URC's ban

Hmm, your example referenced using or fighting against DDD on walk-offs, which I believe was the point many in here were trying to make. I think if youre going to talk about why walk-offs are bad it's best to exclude him.

 

[AlphaZealot]

You guys might not like Melee, but the fact is that the Melee community has not been effectively split into two and is still going relatively strong while the Brawl scene is already in decline after three years. The Melee scene had the choice between banning stages and banning the characters that broke them (Fox most notoriously) and always went with the stages.

This is besides the fact that most regions outside of the US banned both Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar because of the stages themselves, not Meta Knight. I'm not saying banning those stages is a definitive answer to MK placing a lot, but it's not exactly like anyone can say it's the opposite either. As it stands, it was never given a shot and the regions without those stages don't have a MK problem. Just consider this: in Europe MK's best counterpick is probably Delfino and I'm pretty sure there is a better character for every other CP stage.

Also, MK is only used in less than 1/5 of tournament matches in the US? The ****? In most Melee tournaments I enter these days like half my bracket matches involve Falco (and I'm one of few people who don't play the character at all...). Considering the complaints and legal CPs I'd expect like 40-50%. Not even going to bother with the money data anymore, but this was actually new to me.

Here is the difference: in the entirely of Melee's lifespan, Fox never consistently won nationals. Actually, Fox frequently didn't even get TOP 3 at Melee nationals. With or without those stages.

You aren't gonna ban a "best character" that never had the tournament results to back up the talk.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Marc I think SFP's fallen into some form of neo-communism viewpoint hes blanket applying to the weirdest shiz. No offense SFP but arguing with an ideologue without support is a lost cause.

Brozone, do you even know what communism is? Do you mean fascism? Because I'm arguing the total opposite of that.

 

[DeLux]

Hmm, your example referenced using or fighting against DDD on walk-offs, which I believe was the point many in here were trying to make. I think if youre going to talk about why walk-offs are bad it's best to exclude him.

I was addressing why the misconception might exist while acknowledging that it is a misconception with the reasoning that exists throughout the character list. This strategy throughout the character list exists even against the misconception reasoning.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Cassio]

Brozone, do you even know what communism is? Do you mean fascism? Because I'm arguing the total opposite of that.

no, i meant communism/marxism/power to the people/ etc. etc.

I was addressing why the misconception might exist while acknowledging that it is a misconception with the reasoning that exists throughout the character list. This strategy throughout the character list exists even against the misconception reasoning.

You didnt really explain that though (the underlined part). You explain why it was a powerful strategy throughout the character list when fighting DDD, which is true, but the fact that you had to reference DDD sort of proves the opposite point.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Cassio the new jebus

 

[zmx]

Assuming this was true...
So?

Is it pro-ban's problem that they actually DID something? It's not pro-bans fault anti-ban couldn't/didn't want to properly defend their stance. I guess it's just how democracy works isn't it?

And it's still a flaw as I've pointed out. The only accurate way to do a poll of this magnitude is to somehow force everyone to vote. One way I can think of is simply have them vote before being able to enter the site (or at least all the brawl related boards) that particular day. This way you get the entire community's opinion as opposed to those that bothered.

Using myself as an example again I didn't even know this poll was taking place and I'm pretty sure I was on the site that day. I just missed it. Most people that weren't an extreme (in this case, mostly assertive pro-banners) probably did as well.

 

[DeLux]

no, i meant communism/marxism/power to the people/ etc. etc.

You didnt really explain that though (the underlined part). You explain why it was a powerful strategy throughout the character list when fighting DDD, which is true, but the fact that you had to reference DDD sort of proves the opposite point.

I already addressed in my establishing post that it was a high risk - high reward tactic that degenerates play in the away from the contests of skill we normally wish to test outside of the context of DDD :\

Of course I'd have to acknowledge the DDD misconception to point out that it is a misconception.

 

[Player-1]

If you go through the first few pages of the "Metaknight is banned" thread, you will find several URC members justifying their vote with the results of the MK ban poll.

Example:



Also see t1mmy's blog in AiB (except that AiB is down)

That quote doesn't help you at all. It doesn't show a URC sayi g majority opinion is always right. It's saying that the majority opinion was a factor in the decision of the MK ban. That's not to say that other factors might override that factor or the same thing might not hold true for another topic

 

[Cassio]

Maybe I missed or forgot your first post, which I believe is this:

Spoiler

I mean, obviously DDD would gain a huge advantage because without obstruction he's essentially ALWAYS walk off camping (while avoiding the negative high risk part that degenerates gameplay on the stage). It doesn't change the fact that every character has walk-off camping capability, even against DDD. I would think that the dominant strategy against a DDD on such a level would be to walk off camp since approaching at any other situation skews the risk reward highly in his favor.

But regardless for Onett on Melee or Mushroom Kingdom on n64, I don't know the specific ban rationale the BR's used. What I do know is that our current ban* was more or less justified by the adv/disadv I listed. Those still exist in melee/n64 variants of smash, so I'm sure they would also apply to those stages as well by extension.

*Brawl's Ban on Walk-Off stages, not necessarily the URC's ban

If so I apologize.

If not, then you didnt explain how it degenerates play unless youre fighting against DDD. Yes when fighting DDD who is low-risk high reward anywhere but near the blastzone players are going to be forced to play near the blastzone. What you didnt establish is why this would occur in any other MU where a one sided "low-risk high reward scenario everywhere but the edges" does not exist. Youve simply said it would occur but havent given a reason.

 

[DeLux]

I am under the impression the banning of walk-offs preceded DDD by a fair amount.

Case in point: The N64 ruleset does not feature Mushroom Kingdom as a legal stage. Onett isn't legal in Melee either.

If we extrapolate, I think we can safely say that DDD's Chain Grab was not the primary motive towards banning walk-offs in Brawl.

The ban appealed more to the status quo which justified the banning of walk-offs due to the centralization of walk-off camping as a high risk - high reward situation that was felt to degenerate Smash away from the skills competition was designed to test.

My original post. You're referencing like my third post on the matter.

going to work so I'll be away from the thread. I wish more people than Cassio read what I originally had to say on the topic at hand of Brin/RC vs. MK mutual exclusivity instead of it being lost on Walk-Off camping

 

[Marc]

Here is the difference: in the entirely of Melee's lifespan, Fox never consistently won nationals. Actually, Fox frequently didn't even get TOP 3 at Melee nationals. With or without those stages.

You aren't gonna ban a "best character" that never had the tournament results to back up the talk.

I agree, which is why Europe, Japan and several American regions have zero justification to ban MK.

As for Fox not winning with those stages legal... many were almost instantly banned and you're only looking at American regions if you think Fox didn't have big wins at the time. Regardless, I've seen tournament evidence of broken stages that gave Fox players the win, it just was nipped in the bud before it could ruin entire events. Also of note is that those stages were often counterpicks, so the people abusing them still had to win match 1 and 3. Doesn't make it right though.

That's not the point here though, it's that the Melee scene always banned stages when characters were perceived as breaking them. The primary reason for many stage bans is Fox, even if those stages had other problems too. The recent banning of Brinstar after so many years has a lot to do with Jiggs, the same way you can't realistically expect characters other than Peach and Jiggs to excel on Mute City (hence, the stage had to go in most regions). Player-1 here is saying or at least implying that he'd rather keep stages legal than characters and that's in direct opposition to everything we've done so far.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Player-1]

I also said that id probably want to ban a single stage before a character if the character isnt already hurting the metagame and competetiveness of a game and IMO MK is


@masky, good I got tired of constantly disproving your poorly thought out statements

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Hey guys. 75% of people at e4 champions (IIRC) were in favor of banning RC, with or without MK. I have no doubt that over half the community is in favor of it.

 

[Raziek]

I don't even understand how people can even think of banning RC without MK around. Like, it just boggles my mind.

 

[AlphaZealot]

That's not the point here though, it's that the Melee scene always banned stages when characters were perceived as breaking them. The primary reason for many stage bans is Fox, even if those stages had other problems too.

Fox was actually a reason added after-the-fact for most stage bans. The Kishes banned all walk off stages because they were walk offs, not just because of Fox (he would be the biggest offender, but clearly not the only offender in Melee capable of abusing walk-off sides). A lot of stages just got turned off because they were 'dumb' and no real reason was given. Onnet and Peach's Castle were banned at MLG midway through the season in 2006, and the largest reasoning was simply camping and unsightly play, not Fox. Melee always had a nasty habit, especially after the Kishes stopped hosting, of banning stages and then coming up with the reasoning later. This was essentially because of the strength of the Pound ruleset, so if Pound banned something, it was gone at many, many tournaments. It was also because of this arbitrary idea of 'competitive', that allowed any stage to be banned for simply not 'testing the skills [insert TO] wants to test'.

Maybe things were different in EU/Japan. It has always been senseless to me to compare communities that hardly interact, and especially in the case of EU/US in Melee, are actually playing significantly different games (PAL v NTSC).

 

[Tommy_G]

I don't even understand how people can even think of banning RC without MK around. Like, it just boggles my mind.

Ummmm it screws over a lot of characters and makes it more than a simple advantage.

Jungle Japes is more neutral yet it is banned at tournaments before Rainbow is. Hell, JJ is even more neutral than Delfino is.

Brinstar is just a bull**** stage altogether.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Brinstar is just a bull**** stage altogether.

Ding ding ding! Here is the reason most stages in all of the Smash games are banned. A lot of the reasoning is provided by theorists after-the-fact, when if you even spoke to the TO's directly it is usually unquantifiable things like the stage is dumb, or people hated the stage, or [insert non-analytical reason].

 

[Player-1]

Ummmm it screws over a lot of characters and makes it more than a simple advantage.
.

just plain wrong.


FD screws a lot of characters over also, ban FD?

 

[Tommy_G]

just plain wrong.


FD screws a lot of characters over also, ban FD?

Why is Jungle Japes banned?

I'll even go as far as why is Pirate ship banned?

 

[Player-1]

I'm not sure considering I wasn't in the URC at the times they were first banned.


I can give you my opinion on why those stages are banned if you want though.

 

[Tommy_G]

I just want a good reason why Japes is banned yet Rainbow and Brinstar are still legal.

 

[Player-1]

Well my opinion on why Japes should be banned is because the croc gives too big of a punishment of getting hit by something that isn't that easy to avoid. You can say ICs get too big of a reward for getting a grab off, but it's actually hard to get a grab off if someone is playing the ICs MU right, getting hit by the croc isn't as easy to avoid as an IC's grab (at least IMO).

That's just the main reason though. There are other smaller reasons that by themselves wouldn't get a stage banned like but definitely is a valid point like the stage encourages degenerative camping that makes the game boring to watch.

 

[DeLux]

???

The Klap Trap is in a predictable pattern on a timer. Stage knowledge makes it easy to avoid.

ICs players are people and are therefore less predictable than a constant stage feature...

 

[Tommy_G]

Well my opinion on why Japes should be banned is because the croc gives too big of a punishment of getting hit by something that isn't that easy to avoid. You can say ICs get too big of a reward for getting a grab off, but it's actually hard to get a grab off if someone is playing the ICs MU right, getting hit by the croc isn't as easy to avoid as an IC's grab (at least IMO).

That's just the main reason though. There are other smaller reasons that by themselves wouldn't get a stage banned like but definitely is a valid point like the stage encourages degenerative camping that makes the game boring to watch.

I've seen more camping on non-MK rainbow cruise matches than on Japes.

The Croc is predictable. It spawns in each hole at xx:x7 and xx:x4. MVD lost a loser's finals match to Ryo that cost him the set because he randomly fell through Delfino's floor(the part with 2 walk offs and a dip in the middle next to the fountain.)

I'd much rather have something I feel I can control a bit better than randomly falling through the stage.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

I just want a good reason why Japes is banned yet Rainbow and Brinstar are still legal.

Japes = 1 hit KO stage effects, water, falco + camping

Brinstar SHOULD be banned. It has random acid that rises to random levels. It can, at some points, cut off game play to a single platform 3 character lengths across. That HEAVILY favors characters with multiple jumps.

Rainbow I'm neutral. It has weird gimmicks, but it's consistent.

 

[Player-1]

???

The Klap Trap is in a predictable pattern on a timer. Stage knowledge makes it easy to avoid.

ICs players are people and are therefore less predictable than a constant stage feature...

I know it's on a predictable timer, but the opponent still can put them in the position to get hit which I find a lot easier than an ICs grab.

I've seen more camping on non-MK rainbow cruise matches than on Japes.

The Croc is predictable. It spawns in each hole at xx:x7 and xx:x3 or 4 (idr) MVD lost a loser's finals match to Ryo that cost him the set because he randomly fell through Delfino's floor(the part with 2 walk offs and a dip in the middle next to the fountain.)

I'd much rather have something I feel I can control a bit better than randomly falling through the stage.

yes, RC can encourage camping and I acknowledge that, but like I said it's not bannable by itself. And you've seen more campy non-MK RC matches than japes because japes is banned.

Falling through stages isn't random, it's a game mechanic that, AFAIK, we haven't fully understood yet.

 

[Marc]

Fox was actually a reason added after-the-fact for most stage bans. The Kishes banned all walk off stages because they were walk offs, not just because of Fox (he would be the biggest offender, but clearly not the only offender in Melee capable of abusing walk-off sides). A lot of stages just got turned off because they were 'dumb' and no real reason was given. Onnet and Peach's Castle were banned at MLG midway through the season in 2006, and the largest reasoning was simply camping and unsightly play, not Fox. Melee always had a nasty habit, especially after the Kishes stopped hosting, of banning stages and then coming up with the reasoning later. This was essentially because of the strength of the Pound ruleset, so if Pound banned something, it was gone at many, many tournaments. It was also because of this arbitrary idea of 'competitive', that allowed any stage to be banned for simply not 'testing the skills [insert TO] wants to test'.

Maybe things were different in EU/Japan. It has always been senseless to me to compare communities that hardly interact, and especially in the case of EU/US in Melee, are actually playing significantly different games (PAL v NTSC).

Our scene started with all stages legal and banned them gradually based on tournament evidence. I agree that beyond Hyrule Temple/Great Bay banning stages because of just Fox becomes more gray area, but he was in everyone's mind regardless. It's kind of like with RC I guess where people don't really like it already and then MK is just another reason to get rid of the stage, but either way everything was given a fair chance with us (though much less so in Brawl). I'm not going to deny that the reasoning wasn't always 100% foolproof, but regions all over the world came to similar conclusions and the community was happy rather than split, so in my book the Melee scene was and is succesful.

The PAL/NTSC differences for Melee are notable, but we have NTSC copies and have always looked at your vids. The current world champion is European and he got the title at an American tournament, so you're kind of doing yourself a disservice by only looking at your own scene. I realize the scope of Unity is only the US/Canada, but that doesn't make those regions exist in a vacuum. I feel like I have more insights taking into account three (Europe, US, Japan) scenes for two (Melee, Brawl) games than if I were focusing on one scene for one game.

 

[AlphaZealot]

But last I checked the Japan/US/EU rulesets all differed. Japans most severely. Your definition of 'split' seems to only revolve around characters being banned, when I would probably expand that to either 'different rulesets' or 'significantly different rulesets'. The later has been and still is true when comparing the Japanese ruleset in Melee or Brawl with the US or EU rulesets.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

???

The Klap Trap is in a predictable pattern on a timer. Stage knowledge makes it easy to avoid.

ICs players are people and are therefore less predictable than a constant stage feature...

True, but if you find yourself in the water for whatever reason when it shows up... you're dead. Staring at the clock like that (for the :03 and the :... something mark) is kinda unreasonable given that no other stage requires you to split your attention so much to avoid instant death.

 

[Cassio]

But last I checked the Japan/US/EU rulesets all differed. Japans most severely. Your definition of 'split' seems to only revolve around characters being banned, when I would probably expand that to either 'different rulesets' or 'significantly different rulesets'. The later has been and still is true when comparing the Japanese ruleset in Melee or Brawl with the US or EU rulesets.

Umm, if you include what is desired vs what exists then the US is very split aside from MK. West coast alone may as well not exist on the continent and aligns more with the EU and Japan in terms of their desired ruleset. Unity essentially represents EC and from the looks of it not even all of it.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

While I agree that testing it out would have been a fair idea, at this point the community took the route of, ban the character whom is the problem to them on those stages.

Both are fair ideas but the community wanted the removal of a character over removing those stages.

 

[Cassio]

A good chunk of people who wanted MK banned also want those stages banned, lol. In addition to the people who want MK legal + the stages banned.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

True.

But the point is for people wanting them legal and MK banned, vice versa, both were fair ideas at the time.

 

[Marc]

But last I checked the Japan/US/EU rulesets all differed. Japans most severely. Your definition of 'split' seems to only revolve around characters being banned, when I would probably expand that to either 'different rulesets' or 'significantly different rulesets'. The later has been and still is true when comparing the Japanese ruleset in Melee or Brawl with the US or EU rulesets.

I'd argue the Melee stage lists are really similar between the US, Europe and Japan. Wasn't that way before, but from the European point of view the Pound and Apex rulesets were always just fine. Japan is the most conservative and most isolated by virtue of the language barrier, but for Melee hard counterpick stages have been removed globally. A difference of a few stages doesn't really matter in any case, the starters tend to be the same.

The Apex ruleset for this year is pretty much the European ruleset when you consider stages and the like. Even Unity isn't that far removed from us, but I will give you that Japan differs to a point where I do keep their stages in mind when interpreting results and character choice. But yeah, it's not the same as banning a character and the Smashboards community at least will be split moreso than before. I also don't think the entirety of the US will roll with it, but we'll see.