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Why not?I HIGHLY doubt we will be seeing GaW Vs Kirby every RC match we watch.
I actually disagree, ICs aren't affected THAT heavily by non neutrals except maybe brinstar. Rainbow affects them a bit as well (more than any other CP stage), but not THAT badly either.I think Tesh is right, that the problem is the combination of MK and RC/Brinstar and not just the stages, because most of the commotion and the switching and the problems are due to the hybrid, excepting ICs, but ICs are affected so heavily by every stage except neutrals, and it would be ridiculous to ban all CPs for ICs.
It does meat a blurry line where some stages are on the fence like Japes, Norfair, etc.That said, other stages are banned because of "degenerative play," which is highly subjective and probably becomes a mess when it's controversial and blurry like in this case; maybe a vote should be held? (Admittedly, it's not random, although to say it doesn't have hazards may not be altogether correct - its hazards might not be the usual kind because they don't hurt you, they just kill you outright.)
The problem is not the stages alone for MK being banned and does extend past the combination of stages.If, then, the problem lies in the combination of MK and RC/Brinstar, shouldn't RC/Brinstar (or maybe just one) be removed before MK, in order of less drastic to more in terms of changing the metagame? (Similar to how small rules chipped away at MK's planking and stuff like that before the big ban hit.) Unless, of course, the problem extends beyond the combination and to all stages, which would then warrant MK's ban.
I'm not saying I agree with all of these things I'm about to state for the arguments for his ban, I'm just stating them:Not saying that none exist (I'm sure plenty exist), but what reasons are there, independent of stage, that warrant his ban? Of course, this is the entire Ban platform, and I apologize for not knowing the Ban platform well, but what are the most notable ones?
Because all of those other characters still have bad MUs (even on RC) and are harder to pick up than MK is.Why not?
Doesn't the Brawl community stress having strong secondary characters (aside from MK) for hard matchups or bad stages?
I'm not trying to be a smart alec or anything for a change.
Smooth Criminal
It doesnt count when those bad MUs are against other characters that are also gay on those stages, lol. Honestly though Im not sure youd find much agreement here.Because all of those other characters still have bad MUs (even on RC)
1: Opinionated. MK is beatable and has been beaten numerous times over the course of Brawl's release.-MK being too broken overall (this ties in with stages and other things i'm about to say)
-MK breaking the CP system (not having any bad stages or bad MUs)
-MK being too overcentralized (too many people use MK which stales the metagame and hurts competitiveness)
-The majority of the community wants him banned
-We've seen how the metagame is with MK legal for the past 3.5 years, it's time to try it without him banned and see how it works.
-It makes the game more exciting
-More character diversity.
alright, since i'm about to defend all of these points, I just want to note that I don't agree with all of them and that I just think that your points were expressed poorly, I was just posting that to show what the most popular arguments were. Also, a lot of people believe that a lot of these points alone don't warrant a character ban, but when added up they do (which you didn't disprove).1: Opinionated. MK is beatable and has been beaten numerous times over the course of Brawl's release.
2: The only thing I can't logically disprove, however I do believe that the majority of top and high tiers do well enough to not need a secondary for MK more than they simply need more match-up experience and game experience.
3: Disproven by MikeHaze's video he isn't too overcentralized. 5 Falcos at FL's last big tournament out of 45 entrants shows 11% of the players are Falco mains(Dr3w, Viper, Xaltis, DJ Jack, and myself.) Should Falco be banned in Florida for having the same ratio as MK does simply because "too many people play him?"
4: Shouldn't matter for a ban. It's extremely biased and very poor criteria for a ban. People will just find the next "cheap" thing to ban.
5: You've got to be kidding me.
6: Opinionated. I like watching MK so MK not banned is more exciting to me. (See how this can be turned for opinion.)
7: Removing the most popular of something will force people to choose other characters. Banning D3 would allow for more viability of the characters that lose to his chain-grab, thus create more character diversity.
I'm just trying to understand Brawl player's ban logic...and I just want Jungle Japes back.
Maybe I phrased it poorly, but I meant how characters can be easily gimped at the pendulum or the falling blocks, although that's usually not much of a problem. Also, the end of the loop where you have to drop back down onto the ship kinda kills you, but really isn't too much of a problem.Nothing on RC kills you, except MAYBE something like the doughnut blocks, those are the only thing I can consider possibly 'hazardous'.
Being broken and having no bad MUs seems kinda subjective, so I guess MK's fate pivots on those, although most everyone believes that he is broken and has no bad MUs. MUs themselves are controversial, so I'm not sure if MUs can be a solid point in favor of MK's ban, being so debated themselves. (Same with stages, I guess..... although he doesn't really have bad stages, it's just combinations like Falco/ICs and FD or something, maybe he gets camped more on larger stages?)-MK being too broken overall (this ties in with stages and other things i'm about to say)
-MK breaking the CP system (not having any bad stages or bad MUs)
-MK being too overcentralized (too many people use MK which stales the metagame and hurts competitiveness)
-The majority of the community wants him banned
-We've seen how the metagame is with MK legal for the past 3.5 years, it's time to try it without him banned and see how it works.
-It makes the game more exciting
-More character diversity.
Yeah, those stages take away any advantage Marth would have versus those characters and IMO even pushes it as a disadvantage for Marth in specific matchups.Even though Marth is like at least +2 with every character that would want to use those stages?
That's why two stage bans are amazing....If it were rainbow cruise alone maybe. But theres two stages where it benefits to have a secondary that abuses them to the max, and not risk losing your stage ban. Banning MK doesnt change this system at all.
If I play Marth and can ban frigate and still play a character that can gay people on brinstar/RC its a powerful dynamic that exists with or without MK.
The only time MVD and I have played in tournament, Game 3 was RC and I won.Snake and GaW I think Snake still beats GaW on RC. I'm not completely sure about this myself, but Esam told me that MVD beat Vinnie on this stage.
Good grief, this is terrible. If I didn't come to my own conclusion for the MK ban I'd be embarrassed to be on the pro-ban side.-MK being too broken overall (this ties in with stages and other things i'm about to say)
-MK breaking the CP system (not having any bad stages or bad MUs)
-MK being too overcentralized (too many people use MK which stales the metagame and hurts competitiveness)
-The majority of the community wants him banned
-We've seen how the metagame is with MK legal for the past 3.5 years, it's time to try it without him banned and see how it works.
-It makes the game more exciting
-More character diversity.
Yo come to GA bro, we're fresh ^.^Shoutouts to player1 as well, hopefully i can meet you someday!
My bad then, that's just what I was told.The only time MVD and I have played in tournament, Game 3 was RC and I won.
one of my biggest pet peeves, it's very frustrating.Another reason i can't stand posting back here is that someone is always skewing your posts, when they don't even understand the post to begin with.
hope you know there are more "good" players that are for the ban than against it.It's ok Tyrant. The good players, aka anti-ban, are too busy winning tournaments to post. That's why the boards are full of complaining, nonplacing kids who are "allowed" to flail around because they host tournaments.
Cater to the scrubby, "option A is sooo cheapppp" masses. That's always good for the competitive scene.
Ill respond to the other post when I get home, but it's kinda hard when all they say is no, no, no, no without anything else.
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Uh, please don't attempt to make blanket statements about non-mk top players. My region isn't dominated by mk, yet all three of our top players are pro-ban.Let's pretend you were a top player and didn't main MK. Even if you didn't think MK was bannable, why wouldn't you agree with it. You're playing to win and if tbe most popular character gets banned, then that's more people that have to get good again with a character they don't usually play with, not because it's not MK.
It's so disgusting really.
Now I know I'm not a top player, hell I haven't entered tournaments in a while even though I've been to them. I main Falco so the MK ban would do nothing but benefit me personally, but I know he's not good enough be banned for that simple reason. His character make-up is good, but managable.
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It's either that or all of you guys have terrible ideas on what the proper criteria for a ban is. I'd rather like to think you were competent intellectuals though.Uh, please don't attempt to make blanket statements about non-mk top players. My region isn't dominated by mk, yet all three of our top players are pro-ban.
How do you figure?Ripple said:falco mains should be against the ban because that'll actually hurt their character
Who does really well against MK (even on CP stages)? Pikachuwho has one of the best match ups against MK? falco
who loses horridly to ICs and pika? falco
who beats Ics considerably (thanks to CP) and pika just by being better? MK
your turn
yeah...youre just wrong here.who has one of the best match ups against MK? falco
who loses horridly to ICs and pika? falco
who beats Ics considerably (thanks to CP) and pika just by being better? MK
your turn
To be fair many of these players still have fairly selfish reasons according to their own testimony, even if it isnt anything as sinister as Tommy_G said.Uh, please don't attempt to make blanket statements about non-mk top players. My region isn't dominated by mk, yet all three of our top players are pro-ban.
Marth isn't going to get much better without MK.Less MK means more Marth who is one of Pika's biggest counters. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=254597
Less MK means more Snake who is one of ICs biggest counters. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=242786
Falco does decently well vs both of those characters.
Pikachu does not lose to Metaknight.who beats Ics considerably (thanks to CP) and pika just by being better? MK
How about disproving me with actual information or notible player testimonial and a factual basis instead of just calling me wrong. Maybe your posts will actually be worth creating a rebuttal, but as of right now, all I see is 5 year old screaming "NO NO NO."Marth isn't going to get much better without MK.
Snake doesn't counter IC.
/really? Linking to a match-up thread from 2009? So relevant....
I don't get this logic. You say pro ban is selfish and even the top players just want MK banned to make things easier on themselves? The same could be said about anti-ban, even the ones who don't main MK. For example, I know Mekos is anti-ban. Maybe he just wants to make sure Marth isn't prevalent enough to ruin his chances of winning? You really as just speculating on people's motives without looking at your own.Let's pretend you were a top player and didn't main MK. Even if you didn't think MK was bannable, why wouldn't you agree with it. You're playing to win and if tbe most popular character gets banned, then that's more people that have to get good again with a character they don't usually play with, not because it's not MK.
It's so disgusting really.
Now I know I'm not a top player, hell I haven't entered tournaments in a while even though I've been to them. I main Falco so the MK ban would do nothing but benefit me personally, but I know he's not good enough be banned for that simple reason. His character make-up is good, but managable.
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