A New Rule To Think About: Grab Infinites *Ledge Stall Update*

[Overswarm]

It's a fine line, but if MK is using the Tornado to *cause damage* and then fleeing to the ledge, that is simply a tactic. But if MK is hiding on the ledge until the opponent comes for him, that's stalling.

Why?

If he's at a lower %, he wins when the timer runs out. The opponent has to come to him wherever he is. If he is at a higher %, the opponent wins when the timer runs out.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

This isn't stalling.

Jigglypuff dong a rising pound above stage where she can't get touched is a stall.

Peach dropping down under the stage and wallbombing is a stall.

I always thought of a stall as a neutral way to camp, where neither character is negatively affected(unless of course the one "stalling" is ahead in stock/percent).

It's just a gay tactic that's come along, it's new, so I can see why everyone's scared.

If your character has problems Vs a ledge***ging character, then just like you had to do in Melee(for the most part) pick up a secondary.

 

[St. Viers]

the problem is that it isn't neutral, because chances of being at the same percent are very slim...

and it isn't new. The problem is that it's a more more viable way to stall than in melee, because of brawl's edge properties.

Also, no doc to **** up ledge grabbers with pills, only mario, who generally isn't played, and isn't good enough to warrant use solely for long distance edge hitting; pit, if you're good with arrows (but if that's the case, you're probably the one on the ledge =P; ness/lucas with PKT, olimar w/pikmin, etc....

 

[Blatt Blvd]

I really only see MK and MAYBE Pit being a real problem when the novelty goes away.

 

[Retroend]

Oh and retro gammer eat my a$$hole fvckwad.

boy, why don't say it in my face!? you can't even spell gamer right you *******.

 

[Hai Im Fearless]

Just ban timer

 

[Loto]

Just ban timer

+1? :D

heheh

 

[Kagesekan]

I really only see MK and MAYBE Pit being a real problem when the novelty goes away.

ROB? His neutral air pokes through the stage pretty fair, his fair as deceptive reach, his uair beats a lot of approaches, and his up+b auto sweetspots the ledge. The gyro can be tossed onto the ledge in front of him to slow down enemy approaches and eat projectiles and his laser can keep damage happening to the opponent.

ROB is also much harder to gimp than Pit because his upb can be interrupted. All you have to do if you use and fuel is land on the stage for 2 seconds.

 

[Advent Lee]

Just ban timer

Agreed.



-advent-

 

[Kagesekan]

You guys are silly.

We should play No Jones only. One stock, smash ball on high, TL is banned.

 

[Hai Im Fearless]

Lol @ olimar can just fsmash over the ledge vs campers it's pretty hilarious.

everyone just pick up olimar.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

Well we were originally thinking about taking off the timer.

In all honesty what do people think of that idea?

And doodah, i really enjoy having your input here.
One thing alot of people overlook is alot of characters can do this.

The safest, least risk, highest reward ledgecamper is not meta or pit. It's G&W.

I can make a vid showing it, but basically the gw can press back, nair, one hit from the nair pokes through the level, which has invincibility cuz u had just grabbed the ledge. That hit actually pulls people off the level and past the ledge, and the gw can then up b to the ledge, very potentially stage spiking him.


of course theres alot of mixup here, but its the hardest to **** with between the invincibility of the ledge drop nair, its original extreme priority, and the godly up b. also, the gw still has his jump cuz it was never used.

but yea, gay. hes the best ledgecamper by far. even danny agrees.

in any case, what do you guys think would happen if we just took off timer?
there still be a point to ledgecamping/stalling of any kind?

if ur worried people will just sit on the edge for a long time and stall anyway for no apparent reason other than to make the opponent lose patience, your wrong.

all the guy on the stage now has to do is watch his opponent. he now has all the time he needs to view him, watch his patterns, and punish. u can plan it out, rather than rush to get hits before time gets too low.


thoughts?

 

[nevershootme]

taking off the time won't do anything at all. it's just gonna boost the matches to 10 minutes or more should any stalling (edge camping) were to occur excessively

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

sure, just tell me wat ur purpose for stalling would be without time.


and we've tested this out, in a match that "felt" like forever, danny had thought he was camping alot, the match ended (without time) at 4:59
no longer than an average match, but this ended with killing, since there wasn't SO much running away and looking at time.

 

[Mew2King]

GW can in fact edge camp just as good as MK can. When I fight velocity and he does that I don't even bother trying to attack anymore since I'm too disadvantaged and take damage really fast on top of that.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

yeap, it makes the MK GW fight feel Sooooooo even.

its great.

but M2k, why dont u shed some thoughts on the matter?
opinions about it, or how to fix it, if u think its something that even needs to be fixed to begin with.

 

[CO18]

m2k has a big thread about banning ledgecamping in tournament discussion so hes defintiely against it, i just think his way to deal with it isn't the best but I definitiley support this no timer suggestion

I dont see what would give anyone the initiative to camp on the ledge without a timer and definitley not as much as they would with a timer on

 

[complexity1234]

If you have no timer, games would never friggen end..boring as heck. And bad for tournaments too and would last forever. Also, pit has an incentive to camp the ledge since he has a projectile for example..

Something else needs to be thought up.

Best thing i can think of is to stay away from a ledge camper. If he continues to stay on the ledge for no reason, pause the match and bring some judges over to watch the match..

 

[Ruuku]

sure, just tell me wat ur purpose for stalling would be without time.


and we've tested this out, in a match that "felt" like forever, danny had thought he was camping alot, the match ended (without time) at 4:59
no longer than an average match, but this ended with killing, since there wasn't SO much running away and looking at time.

Like I was saying to Danny today, if you take the timer off, I'll just camp until my opponent forfeits. I'm a very patient player.

 

[Master Raven]

I don't like the no-timer idea. It would just drag the tournaments to unnecessarily long periods of time, ESPECIALLY if you're camping against a patient player.

 

[nevershootme]

in the end. you might as well have 5-10 trustworthy judges (to compensate the amount of tv's) to monitor the TV's at all times, I don't care if you want to turn away to watch other matches, you're there to watch their boring *** match for any stalling

 

[Overswarm]

A "no timer" idea is horrible for early play, especially in pools.

The timer is a pretty integral part of the game at this point.

However, I can see turning the timer off for later matches in the bracket (semi finals and on, or top 8 placement games) as viable... except it can drastically change how matches are played.

Imagine I am pikachu and my opponent is Donkey Kong. DK gets a KO. Normally in this situation, I'd be forced to kill DK before the timer ran out. If this situation occurs leaving Pika with one stock and DK with two, depending on hwo the timer is, DK could be at a huge advantage. Without the timer, the match could go either way at any point... meaning Pikachu has no reason to attack, ever. He can easily spam thunder jolt literally the entire match until DK is at killable %. That's why we have a timer in the first place; it prevents time-wasting strategies such as this.

A better solution to fix the problem you see, I imagine, is to lower the timer. However, this again causes issues.

Also, 2 stock best of 5 sets have been tested out in a few areas, and that could lower the "boringness" factor many of you seem to encounter.


In the end, people just need to learn to play against edge camping. There are a few characters that just can't really deal with the edge well (Wolf, Falco, etc.)... that's their problem. It is an inherent character weakness that we can't get around, and is specific to just those characters. Everyone else can get around it, and very few have great edge games. Metaknight is the only one that can stay there indefinitely and be dangerous.

 

[complexity1234]

people can still camp the ledge with a lower timer.. and run away alot more since theres less time on the clock.

Metaknight is the only one that can stay there indefinitely and be dangerous.

No you just want MK banned. He has no projectile, so its useless unless the enemy runs towards him. So if a MK camps the edge, its super obvious its stalling.

A character like pit can be lethal on the edge and rack up damage from far with arrows..
Game and watch can also camp the ledge very well.

 

[PolMex23]

I agree with overswarm...

Also If you play Mario an edgecamping gets banned then we are losing Mario players...atleast one xD(Monk)

Just deal with it, like we have to deal with DDD's and Snakes grab/tilt range, MKs priority, and other crap. Deal with it please.

 

[Eight 52]

Easily avoidable, yoshi cant even shield grab well.
I've played Bens (Eight 52)yoshi enough to know its not that bad.
Plus ban on FD and play on platforms.

My timing has been horrible. I played with gmoney for a little bit and started to get the timing down. If I practiced more, I'm pretty sure I could get to the 145% autokill range.

 

[chckn]

The no timer idea is the best imo. Of course its not going to work without some sort of ban against stalling for the sole purpose of wearing down patience.

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

so next time we meet, i'll go all ddd, u go all snake/marth/olimar, all good. and if we pick all neutrals and u win, i will forever agree ur 100% better than me in skill and smarts.

i agree u CAN beat me, im not denying it, but i wana see u do it twice. that would be cool

So wait because you can grab really well makes you a smarter or more skillful player than me, you lost to me in a match where you're suppose to have the advantage Mk vs Snake, first you got outsmarted by not banning the right stages, then you F'd up by not remembering who i know how to play, if i'm not mistaken you lost to me and Tommy G (the exact same people as CO18 who may be just as good as you maybe even better, and i fought him on all nuetrals and won.

To add to what you said, you don't think that i'm smarter because i play more characters thus not limiting my options, and you just still have never beaten me by going all D3, i've beaten you 3 out of the 5 tournies that we've fought in so, i don't need to prove that i'm smarter when other people and myself already think so, not trying to be an *** but thats just the truth

 

[mkGmoney]

drammaaa

 

[hungrybox]

**** brawl and its "tatics"

 

[ranmaru]

campcampcampcampROLLROLLattackROLLSMaSHAtTaK

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

**** brawl and its "tatics"

learn how to spell

 

[Retroend]

**** brawl and its "tatics"

could you stop with the bashing already? we get it, brawl sucks. you don't have to tell us constantly. everyone knows it sucks. man i'm tired of seeing post like these. not trying to be an ***, but these post are just getting old.

 

[Equi]

So wait because you can grab really well makes you a smarter or more skillful player than me, you lost to me in a match where you're suppose to have the advantage Mk vs Snake, first you got outsmarted by not banning the right stages, then you F'd up by not remembering who i know how to play, if i'm not mistaken you lost to me and Tommy G (the exact same people as CO18 who may be just as good as you maybe even better, and i fought him on all nuetrals and won.

To add to what you said, you don't think that i'm smarter because i play more characters thus not limiting my options, and you just still have never beaten me by going all D3, i've beaten you 3 out of the 5 tournies that we've fought in so, i don't need to prove that i'm smarter when other people and myself already think so, not trying to be an *** but thats just the truth

The reason seibrik has to change characters vs you is DUE to your constant counterpicking. The majority of players dont counterpick stages and when they due they arent stages like Luigi's Mansion.

Plus seibrik DID SAY he was going to go MK this tourney <.<, its not like you can call him out on switching characters

If i had to say who was the smarter player, i definitely think that when it comes down to fighting, Seibrik is a way smarter player. But i'd say you're smarter at brawl as a whole for utilizing counterpicks (both stage and character).

Im sure you'll go zelda vs my wario next time we fight lol.

Anyway, me and seibrik are both starting to use counterpicks, and since everyone else picks gay stages, get ready to see some gay *** **** that wario and d3 can do on some stages.

~Afro at Equi's

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

Cant wait to use delfino and castle seige myself :D
gona be some fun ****.


but yea, I didn't lose to Tommy G anyway this tourny, i lost to Gmoney where i lost to the same thing as you, where i lost the first match with my MK vs his wario. good match, but i wasn't all D3.

The only match i lost all day was to ur olimar on luigi's (with d3 i mean), which in my opionion is super hardcore counterpick.
I feel i could have done better in that match even then if i had played smarter by focusing more on breaking the house instead of challenging you in the rooms.

In any case, I will from now on be keeping my eyes on the person im playing to ban the GAY stages they like, rather than banning the one neutral i dont like that much.

Then again, if lylat was a couterpick instead of a neutral, i'd win the set every time.
I've already figured out, hrnut, that if i win the first match vs you, or anyone really, i've won the entire set.

Which is why in 99% of my matches i'll ban yoshi's no matter who im fighting.
of course, if lylat is counterpick already i mean.

What i do, is ALSO smart. I pick the neutral stage that adds the most randomness and ban it. Cuz i know that i can win on any neutral stage with ddd over 80% of the time vs whomever im fighting.
So i make sure my chances of winning the first match are at its highest.

That way people like you, or anyone that counters gay stages, can pick they're gay little stage/character counter on the 2nd match, maybe even win that one, it doesn't matter, im already thinking about winning the third match, with the counter in my favor.

So, thats why, hrnut, i wish you the best of luck, under more normal circumstances, in beating me in a set. This also goes to Gmoney, or anyone else.

Don't get me wrong, i enjoyed each set i had with you guys and you fought very well and beat me fare and square.
I just love seeing people beating me fair and square twice. It makes it that much more solid, and if you guys are confident enough that you did beat me, it shouldn't be that hard to do it again, right?

Best of luck to you all, see you at next gigs, or any tourny we happen to meet before than.

Btw, im not going to C3, i've got a mission to complete here in FL first.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Seibrik... stop with the cockiness, please...

You seem to feel like you have so much to protect here... but truly great players just let their playing do it. If you don't win a tournament... just go to the next one.

People CP the stages they like... that's how it works. I got CPed on Luigi's like 5 times in the tourney...and loved every time.


Basically, what I'm saying is stop talking about yourself. Nobody cares how great you think you are... nobody wants to hear anybody talk about themselves... so take it elsewhere... if you think you can beat HRnut or Gmoney or anybody...even me... then just do it... Don't post a novel about how you're clearly better or anything... it gets annoying.

And also, Luigi's Mansion is becoming a less broken stage for any character in particular... so I would consider that "fair and square"... especially when the CPer is Olimar.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

i dont gloat or talk for others, i could care less what others have in their heads about me. i do it for myself, and to make sure the people INVOLVED know not to get comfortable.

but thats wat i WAS saying, was that i was gonna let the next tourny talk anyways, (thats what i mean wen i say beat me twice)

P.S. nice butting in, i enjoyed it

 

[xYz]

Everyone knows im the best in FL, and the world!!!

unfortunatly GW @ 95% < Snake's fresh utilt.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

i would think u'd die at 90.... 2nd lightest character in the game, right?

i kno jiggles dies at like 78

 

[Fenrir VII]

i dont gloat or talk for others, i could care less what others have in their heads about me. i do it for myself, and to make sure the people INVOLVED know not to get comfortable.

but thats wat i WAS saying, was that i was gonna let the next tourny talk anyways, (thats what i mean wen i say beat me twice)

P.S. nice butting in, i enjoyed it

Yep, I sure am butting in on a public forum in a thread I was already posting in. good one.

You're just posting this longer thing about how you're going to let the next tourney talk...and it's unnecessary, and it's just annoying to read for pretty much anybody who isn't kirbies backward. *shrug*

You got beat... whether it was due to a CP or not, you got beat... twice... in tourney
A truly good player will just man up to his losses...not john about them all day and say how you think you can beat them later.. it's not necessary

And I'd rather not get back into this "FL sucks" mentality that certain player's cockiness got us into a long time ago... so for the betterment of the state, save your cockiness and johning for people who actually care.

 

[GDX]

95? pfft, you wish. GW is sent to the great beyond at around 88 by the uptilt