A New Rule To Think About: Grab Infinites *Ledge Stall Update*

[Kagesekan]

IDC bout Brawl you f@ggets LOL.

If you wanna ban ledge camping and hamper your "metagame" then so be it.

Soul Calibur is better than Brawl anywayz!

1. you might be an even bigger troll than me =(
2. agreed
3. disagree in terms of the game, agree in terms of competitive play

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Plairnkk]

who do u main? i can try to help u out. i mean, azen gets around it with everyone, even falco. hes too smart :D

did u know hes the one who introduced me to this tactic??

 

[nevershootme]

who do u main? i can try to help u out. i mean, azen gets around it with everyone, even falco. hes too smart :D

did u know hes the one who introduced me to this tactic??

maybe it's cuz lucario's d-air is too good vs the edge?

 

[Advent Lee]

Well a falco who chaingrabs all match and shoots lasers all match even when they're losing should be called f@ggoting then. falco is gay

LOLOLOLZ!!!!!!!! Plank, you just instantly jumped from my bad side to my good side with this post lolz. And trust me thats a hard task to do with a real azz ***** like me. F@ggoting LOLZOLZO

And everyone go watch my COMBO VID, including you Plank man, tell me what ya think.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199905





-advent-

 

[Kagesekan]

Shouldn't be banned.

I think banning MK should be looked into instead.

Brawl just gets worse and worse.

If you're going to ban a character you've already quit the game

 

[Equi]

Wolf. I've lost several times to this tactic against a player named Rx-. Who will sit on the ledge after getting a percent lead. If I run off and bair shine or anything, I generally get punished and I'll die. The only time I've gotten around it is a miracle dair spike at the end of a tourney match very near the edge. Overall it's VERY difficult for Wolf to do anything (due to poor recovery) and it's just not... a fun... match...

Not that I blame my opponent totally, since I countered his laser spam with smart mix ups of laser spam and camping with bairs and everything I've got. But it's MK so I'm sort of forced to do that in that matchup, so he countered me back with ledge stalling, and everytime I'd jump over the platform I'd get up b'd or tornado'd.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

Wait.

Lee's black?

 

[Dreadz18x]

Wait.

Lee's black?

lol
yea bwoy

 

[Plairnkk]

maybe it's cuz lucario's d-air is too good vs the edge?

with everyone, not just lucario

 

[Dreadz18x]

Well a falco who chaingrabs all match and shoots lasers all match even when they're losing should be called f@ggoting then. falco is gay

dats why im not dat falco

 

[Advent Lee]

Wait.

Lee's black?

Now I know your Doodah. Whats up man. Why do you keep making so many different accounts?

Well a falco who chaingrabs all match and shoots lasers all match even when they're losing should be called f@ggoting then. falco is gay

I wish I could sig this. But my sig is already 2good.




-advent-

 

[Kagesekan]

<content redacted>

No, I got it. My entire post wasn't based on what you said, I just built off of it. My entire point is "don't be a f@g if you don't need to be". I don't support any bans really, just because I feel people should find a way to beat it instead of whining "less QQ moar pew pew" basically.

 

[Plairnkk]

Wolf. I've lost several times to this tactic against a player named Rx-. Who will sit on the ledge after getting a percent lead. If I run off and bair shine or anything, I generally get punished and I'll die. The only time I've gotten around it is a miracle dair spike at the end of a tourney match very near the edge. Overall it's VERY difficult for Wolf to do anything (due to poor recovery) and it's just not... a fun... match...

Not that I blame my opponent totally, since I countered his laser spam with smart mix ups of laser spam and camping with bairs and everything I've got. But it's MK so I'm sort of forced to do that in that matchup, so he countered me back with ledge stalling, and everytime I'd jump over the platform I'd get up b'd or tornado'd.

Yeah idk, even without camping at all I think MK takes a big flaming **** on wolf, so i don't know what to tell you really.

 

[Master Raven]

I think some grab releases like Bowser's and just about everyone's grab releases on Wario should be legal.

 

[Advent Lee]

dats why im not dat falco

No F@ggoting for you lolz



-advent-

 

[Dreadz18x]

No F@ggoting for you lolz



-advent-

hell na bwoy
i got dat real n!gga falco

 

[Tommy_G]

I fvcking hate you Doodah....I can't believe I fell for your ****, too.

Falco is much more than Chaingrabs and Laser camping. I've seen countless Falco's get owned because that's all they could do. People can use it well, but it's not unpunishable. Good smashers adapt to counter laser camping. Have you ever played a Falco in Melee?...A good one? Ledge camping done well is almost unpunishable because if you do hit them, they just recover back, but if you don't hit them, it's your stock. Lasers don't kill you. You have to get hit by 30 lasers to go from after CG percent to death percent from Up smash. Unless of course you're(Plank) just ranting because you couldn't beat SK92 without ledge camping, seeing as it would mean he's obviously a better player than you.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

No, I got it. My entire post wasn't based on what you said, I just built off of it. My entire point is "don't be a f@g if you don't need to be". I don't support any bans really, just because I feel people should find a way to beat it instead of whining "less QQ moar pew pew" basically.

thats a nice sentiment to live by.... in friendlies.


the sad truth is, people in tourny matches vs someone good can and will do whatever it takes, whatever exploit they can get they're hands on to win.
I can name 4 people that come to mind.

Hrnut(master of counterpicking) its gay, not a regular way most play smash, but he's really good with quite a few characters on quite a few gay stages, and thats respectable somewhat.

Rx-(Tornadospam extraordinare) kept our minds busy for about a month and a half, 6 months from those days though, he's still doing this tactic we all almost quit the game over, and hes getting owned for it.

Myself(Grabby) i play ddd, i exploit his grabs to the most extreme. however i do believe things like standing/step foward infinites should be banned, i do not believe the thing vs wario should be banned, and neither does afro, wen i told him i wouldn't do it, he said if i didn't do it, he'd just forfiet to me, cuz he wants the hardest time possible with his characters flaws. (this can be taken from characters like wolf that should man up and figure out edgestalls. take it as you will) I do believe however, than including the standing infinites, are any infinites done to lucas/ness, like with marth, or in lucasvsness.

Danny(EdgeCamp) you could also call out plank on this one, but i'd have to say as far as FL goes, danny has givin people the most issues, cuz even when your ahead in %, he can do this cuz hes using his arrows to safely rack up damage. (negotiable to just be allowed?)
even he is starting to hate this strat, and the thought process that goes through his own head as he starts.. "ok, so i got 5 minutes and a stock lead, i can camp the ledge for 5 minutes..." that was an exact quote he gave me that he thought of during his 2nd match vs equi.

but yea, people have gotten around gay strats in the pass, its up to FL as a whole to decide if this one takes the cake and should just be banned off the bat, or we should persevere through and either figure it out, and have ALOT of MK dittoes/MK vs Pit/mk vs random characterX in our future.

Do some thinking before every post you make here, i want valid arguments, not pointless opionions.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

I want to play Diddy King now.

But I sold my Wii.

 

[Kagesekan]

thats a nice sentiment to live by.... in friendlies.


the sad truth is, people in tourny matches vs someone good can and will do whatever it takes, whatever exploit they can get they're hands on to win.
I can name 4 people that come to mind.

Hrnut(master of counterpicking) its gay, not a regular way most play smash, but he's really good with quite a few characters on quite a few gay stages, and thats respectable somewhat.

Rx-(Tornadospam extraordinare) kept our minds busy for about a month and a half, 6 months from those days though, he's still doing this tactic we all almost quit the game over, and hes getting owned for it.

Myself(Grabby) i play ddd, i exploit his grabs to the most extreme. however i do believe things like standing/step foward infinites should be banned, i do not believe the thing vs wario should be banned, and neither does afro, wen i told him i wouldn't do it, he said if i didn't do it, he'd just forfiet to me, cuz he wants the hardest time possible with his characters flaws. (this can be taken from characters like wolf that should man up and figure out edgestalls. take it as you will) I do believe however, than including the standing infinites, are any infinites done to lucas/ness, like with marth, or in lucasvsness.

Danny(EdgeCamp) you could also call out plank on this one, but i'd have to say as far as FL goes, danny has givin people the most issues, cuz even when your ahead in %, he can do this cuz hes using his arrows to safely rack up damage. (negotiable to just be allowed?)
even he is starting to hate this strat, and the thought process that goes through his own head as he starts.. "ok, so i got 5 minutes and a stock lead, i can camp the ledge for 5 minutes..." that was an exact quote he gave me that he thought of during his 2nd match vs equi.

but yea, people have gotten around gay strats in the pass, its up to FL as a whole to decide if this one takes the cake and should just be banned off the bat, or we should persevere through and either figure it out, and have ALOT of MK dittoes/MK vs Pit/mk vs random characterX in our future.

Do some thinking before every post you make here, i want valid arguments, not pointless opionions.

If you want valid arguements:
-ledge stalling can't be effectively banned without causing an uproar
-characters can't be banned without causing an uproar
-Florida's got serious balls for not caving in and if we figure this garbage out our metagame will quickly become better than most other states'.

In respect to Hrnut, I find nothing gay with his playstyle. If you ask me, we should ALL be learning 5-6 characters. I realize that would probably cause some issues with getting a match started, but the way we all lock ourselves into 1-2 characters is just begging to get counterpicked in this game.

Chaingrabbing doesn't bother me as a strat, the only reason the grab release does is because it's unstoppable once you get grabbed. You just have to hope that your opponent is too stupid to carry it through completely. To me, the grab release on Wario is almost as bad as the grab release on Earthbound characters because it essentially does the same thing : it bends them over and shoves a huge monstrous **** up their *****.
I don't play a character who has a problem with that and it still bothers me. I wouldn't support a ban but...every time I see it I just stop and go "...really?". I realize it's a character flaw but still. Brawl is just so **** unethical in general.

I haven't experienced the full force of Danny's ledge camping because ROB's aerial ability rivals Pit's. He counterpicked MK against me in the second match we played. But I could see how it would annoy people who can't airdodge below him and float up with a powerful attack. My suggestion would be to learn a counterpick for that matchup and follow Hrnut's lead: know enough characters to cover yourself in as many areas as possible.

I realize that I'm new to the smash community (I started aiming to be competitive when I met Gmoney in September) and I don't know as much as everyone else because I haven't even been in the US for the last 7-8 years, but I'm seriously trying to make some sort of contribution other than "Brawl is gay we should quit" or "b&n everything ftw". So you'll have to excuse me if my limited experience doesn't meet your expectations, at least I'm trying. You have to admit I've come far for a smash noob.

 

[Leh]

Brawl: The only fighting game where you are forced to learn multiple characters due to the risk of being "counterpicked".

This game is fvcking terrible, but w/e.
If people dont like the idea, fvck it, who cares, dont ban it, ban it, i dont care anymore.

 

[Kagesekan]

Brawl: The only fighting game where you are forced to learn multiple characters due to the risk of being "counterpicked".

This game is fvcking terrible, but w/e.
If people dont like the idea, fvck it, who cares, dont ban it, ban it, i dont care anymore.

That's what happens when you have 35 playable characters and a lead designer who hates competitive players.

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

the game isn't 100% rock paper scissors, skills still come into play because i played CO18 and he banned luigi's mansion however i still counterpicked him with olimar on battlefield and i still won the match fearless however lost to him last gigs, so its not a guaranteed win because the character/stage combination because i'm pretty sure that seibrik could've beaten another player who uses olimar on that stage (he got me down to 1 stock), anyways afro had a long run with just snake but now that the metagame is improving more characters might have to be played to counter strategies, face it brawl isn't every other fighting game, and D3 is very beatable with snake, you just have to change up you style, ask siebrik, i got him to one stock when i was snake and he was D3 on Final, I had 2 stock and 35%, but i messed up because i became comfortable and i got chaingrabbed back and forth through FD, i did lose the match but i'm pretty sure i could have won it, i think i know how chopz beats seibrik now thanks to me playing D3 while practicing against BustaNut...Personally IMO Afro doesn't have to Counterpick D3s he just has to change up his style... think of the fight like you're fighting the ice climbers, you'll know what i'm talking about when you do it.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

so next time we meet, i'll go all ddd, u go all snake/marth/olimar, all good. and if we pick all neutrals and u win, i will forever agree ur 100% better than me in skill and smarts.

i agree u CAN beat me, im not denying it, but i wana see u do it twice. that would be cool

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

so next time we meet, i'll go all ddd, u go all snake/marth/olimar, all good. and if we pick all neutrals and u win, i will forever agree ur 100% better than me in skill and smarts.

i agree u CAN beat me, im not denying it, but i wana see u do it twice. that would be cool

okay but i'm not gonna fight you with olimar on that tiny *** stage known as smashville, oh and if stayed true to what you said and stayed Mk then i wouldn't have had to pick such a gay stage to fight you on

 

[Leh]

the game isn't 100% rock paper scissors, skills still come into play because i played CO18 and he banned luigi's mansion however i still counterpicked him with olimar on battlefield and i still won the match fearless however lost to him last gigs, so its not a guaranteed win because the character/stage combination because i'm pretty sure that seibrik could've beaten another player who uses olimar on that stage (he got me down to 1 stock), anyways afro had a long run with just snake but now that the metagame is improving more characters might have to be played to counter strategies, face it brawl isn't every other fighting game, and D3 is very beatable with snake, you just have to change up you style, ask siebrik, i got him to one stock when i was snake and he was D3 on Final, I had 2 stock and 35%, but i messed up because i became comfortable and i got chaingrabbed back and forth through FD, i did lose the match but i'm pretty sure i could have won it, i think i know how chopz beats seibrik now thanks to me playing D3 while practicing against BustaNut...Personally IMO Afro doesn't have to Counterpick D3s he just has to change up his style... think of the fight like you're fighting the ice climbers, you'll know what i'm talking about when you do it.

I have different styles of aggression, im not a defensive player and thats how you have to play that fight. Its much better for me to just go wario, i did better vs seibrik as wario then i ever have as snake. Which really only supports me maining wario.

 

[Plairnkk]

. Unless of course you're(Plank) just ranting because you couldn't beat SK92 without ledge camping, seeing as it would mean he's obviously a better player than you.

You can't say that, nobody knows what would've happened if i stayed on the stage. You act like when i went on the stage it was just **** or something, which isn't true. SK92 is as easy to read as a childrens book, I just dont like dealing with the cg and lasers. If he was actually a good falco he would've gotten me off the ledge. I've ledge camped 2 sets in my entire brawl existence (one vs chillins falco, one vs sk92s falco) and I still consistently beat top notch players. So to judge off of one set online is just dumb. SK92 rolled into all of my attacks, illusioned into them, etc. I honestly think I would've won without camping because he was so predictable, however I wanted to make a point about Brawl, which I did, didn't I?

 

[Leh]

You can't say that, nobody knows what would've happened if i stayed on the stage. You act like when i went on the stage it was just **** or something, which isn't true. SK92 is as easy to read as a childrens book, I just dont like dealing with the cg and lasers. If he was actually a good falco he would've gotten me off the ledge. I've ledge camped 2 sets in my entire brawl existence (one vs chillins falco, one vs sk92s falco) and I still consistently beat top notch players. So to judge off of one set online is just dumb. SK92 rolled into all of my attacks, illusioned into them, etc. I honestly think I would've won without camping because he was so predictable, however I wanted to make a point about Brawl, which I did, didn't I?

So yeah....
Ban ledgecamping rofl...

 

[Retroend]

STFU Tommy G.

IDC bout Brawl you f@ggets LOL.

If you wanna ban ledge camping and hamper your "metagame" then so be it.

I just wanted to see who would call me names and the likes.

Eat **** Co18.

Soul Calibur is better than Brawl anywayz!

get a **** life will you? shut up and go away. wouldn't be surprised if you're banned.

Well a falco who chaingrabs all match and shoots lasers all match even when they're losing should be called f@ggoting then. falco is gay

if you don't like being chaingrabbed by falco, then pick a character that can easily escape the chaingrab! you don't have to play meta knight you know.

As far as banning infinite grabs, i've been saying that since i've found out about them.
a DDD player.

for the ledge camping, the person who first brought it up, was C.Doc. Danny,
a pit player.

its not about how the top winners of each tourny went to get to their placing. the people that have the capability to do these strats can't stand it, understand the potential and can see doing the same strat 3 years from now and still having the exact same effectiveness, with just as little risk and just as high reward.

If/when i host my next tourny, im going to be following the strictest rules i can come up with, most fair of course, and i would like to see how MATCHES get played out. im not so interested in changing the results, i wana see how matches go.

wen people aren't getting infinited, or ledge camped, we start seeing more rock/paper/siscors, more adaption, more learning, and most importantly, boosts in the meta game much quicker.

one example i think of, how long did Rx- go just tornadoing. he did good, we sucked vs it ok.

that inspired more and more metas to metaspam shamelessly. thats fine to. but then what happened when some top players played vs GOOD metas that did all his other ****? no one was prepared. we weren't up to meta game.

if in most places, ledge camping is either banned, or just doesnt happen, why continue ledge camping in FL? why not catch up with the others and continue on the meta game the rest of the country is going to follow?
we dont want them comming to FL and owning us on the stage cuz all we know how to do is ledgecamp, or us going there and having the same things.

FL as a state will progress much better and faster when things like infinites, and ledgecamps are taken out of the equation.


i duno what else i can say at the moment.

I dont want anyone who did well this passed gigs to think that they had some hand in pushing this. None of you have anything to do with that and you've all earned your placings very well.
We've been discussing this for a long time, and it wasn't till we were all knocked out at Gigs (me,danny,fro) did we get any chance to reflect and try to solve this conundrum.

So, good **** to gigs winners.

Lets get this mess sorted out so we can become a noteable state amoung men.
To FLORIDA!

you sir had made my day. best post i've seen so far. lets get it together florida!

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

Are you sure that you can deal with the gayness of the fight because if you get grabbed its gonna be a ****TY experience, wario's good but snake is a more solid character, and you'll actually have to worry about fighting a zelda, i'd say secondary him if you have to, and definitley ban ledge camping, that ****s the gayest strategy in the world.

 

[Retroend]

ban it. just watching plank's video made me get so bored so easily. it needs to be banned.

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

As far as banning infinite grabs, i've been saying that since i've found out about them.
a DDD player.

for the ledge camping, the person who first brought it up, was C.Doc. Danny,
a pit player.

its not about how the top winners of each tourny went to get to their placing. the people that have the capability to do these strats can't stand it, understand the potential and can see doing the same strat 3 years from now and still having the exact same effectiveness, with just as little risk and just as high reward.

If/when i host my next tourny, im going to be following the strictest rules i can come up with, most fair of course, and i would like to see how MATCHES get played out. im not so interested in changing the results, i wana see how matches go.

wen people aren't getting infinited, or ledge camped, we start seeing more rock/paper/siscors, more adaption, more learning, and most importantly, boosts in the meta game much quicker.

one example i think of, how long did Rx- go just tornadoing. he did good, we sucked vs it ok.

that inspired more and more metas to metaspam shamelessly. thats fine to. but then what happened when some top players played vs GOOD metas that did all his other ****? no one was prepared. we weren't up to meta game.

if in most places, ledge camping is either banned, or just doesnt happen, why continue ledge camping in FL? why not catch up with the others and continue on the meta game the rest of the country is going to follow?
we dont want them comming to FL and owning us on the stage cuz all we know how to do is ledgecamp, or us going there and having the same things.

FL as a state will progress much better and faster when things like infinites, and ledgecamps are taken out of the equation.


i duno what else i can say at the moment.

I dont want anyone who did well this passed gigs to think that they had some hand in pushing this. None of you have anything to do with that and you've all earned your placings very well.
We've been discussing this for a long time, and it wasn't till we were all knocked out at Gigs (me,danny,fro) did we get any chance to reflect and try to solve this conundrum.

So, good **** to gigs winners.

Lets get this mess sorted out so we can become a noteable state amoung men.
To FLORIDA!

And i'm glad to see what i said months ago about making FL better is coming into play, So when top players come to FL they won't only have two hard matches they'll have hopefully 10 or more players who give them hella problems

 

[Leh]

Are you sure that you can deal with the gayness of the fight because if you get grabbed its gonna be a ****TY experience, wario's good but snake is a more solid character, and you'll actually have to worry about fighting a zelda, i'd say secondary him if you have to, and definitley ban ledge camping, that ****s the gayest strategy in the world.

Why would i be worried about zelda, zelda is the most stationary character in the game, A character as mobile as wario shouldnt have a problem with zelda. Im sure she out priortizes everything i do, but her extremely slow smashes (except dsmash...but that has ****ty range) make for easy punishments + bites. Her predictable and easily gimped recovery vs my almost impossible to hit recovery.

Its already a ****ty experience when i get grabbed as snake vs d3, i'd much rather do it with wario.

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

Why would i be worried about zelda, zelda is the most stationary character in the game, A character as mobile as wario shouldnt have a problem with zelda. Im sure she out priortizes everything i do, but her extremely slow smashes (except dsmash...but that has ****ty range) make for easy punishments + bites. Her predictable and easily gimped recovery vs my almost impossible to hit recovery.

Its already a ****ty experience when i get grabbed as snake vs d3, i'd much rather do it with wario.

if zelda gets you to 80% and you get grabbed you're dead, no way around it

 

[Fenrir VII]

So far, Pete and plairnkk win the thread.


Lol at calling SK92 predictable that entire video...after I just watched it thinking, "no no no, that's not how you deal with MK"... xD +10

This is a crummy tactic to use, yes. It's gay, yes. It's boring, yes. it's not unbeatable.

I'm in favor of it getting a national ban, but if parts of the country ban it, and others don't, it's simply not a good option for us now. I mean, that's like handing Plairnkk the rights to FL, and I don't really want to do that just yet.

Do I personally have a problem with it? eh...not really.... but I can see how certain chars would.

Equi, I'm not sure why you would go off the stage against this... Believe me, I'm not questioning your gameplay here...I'm just curious. If you mix shields on the edge with edgehogs, you put the MK in a very bad position... yeah, it's hard to beat, but if he trie to fair your shield, he gets a fsmash. I mean, yeah, you don't want to go off stage with anything other than a hog here...that's a death wish.

Idk, I just think it's a tactic similar to Sheik's in melee...Plairnkk would know this, too... but I never saw that able to just stall a match.

IF we do, in fact, agree to ban it, it depends on a level of enforcement. I do not think a random passing judge should do ANYTHING about it without the opposing player asking them to. I feel that with most cases of stalling, the person getting stalled must choose to make a call, rather than another judge just showing up where he's not welcome.

this is poorly constructed...just wanted to put my vote in... no ban right now.

Especially not a MK ban.

 

[Leh]

if zelda gets you to 80% and you get grabbed you're dead, no way around it

im 100% sure a zelda player would nto grab me as wario.

That slow *** character lol.

 

[Master Raven]

Zelda's Dsmash has very deceptive range.

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

okay how about me and you do a couple of fights, my zelda vs your wario, not saying that i'm gonna win because i haven't practiced her in months but i'd like to see how you do in the fight, she's slow but don't underestimate her; she's a killing machine.

 

[Monk/Honkey/Banana]

I like how this thread started yesterday and already has 8 pages....Anyway

As a Mario Main the ledge is pretty much the only safe place I have during a few match-ups...I can fight on the stage I'd just much rather not get caught an infinite or anything else that can kick my **** in...