Zelda's new tier list placement

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Ftilt is my least used move also. I tend to only use it when my Fsmash is stale and I need a kll move, but even then there are usually better options (like SHFair,SHBair and Dsmash if I can get in close enough).

I use it to KO once my oponent has some pretty high damage because, really, if zelda hasn't killed them by 150%, Ftilt is a fine option and they won't DI out of it like they will Fsmash at that damage.

 

[Kataefi]

Ftilt has more range than fsmash

You heard it here first

 

[<π]

ftilt is too easy to DI. and has too large of a cool down to actually be agressive with it. His on sheild are normally safe is spaced well. so after a predicted spot dodge or bad roll(we all know how often good players lo these) you can throw that move out and hope it either hits or they sheild it... and not Pshield, lol.

ftilt's main issue as a kill move is it can be easily DIed to avoid vertical kills.
dtilt utilt still remains zelda's best kill option at high levels of play. right next to bair OOS as a punisher for dumb crap. See how bad that is? Too bad you can't run backwards to mess up people's spacing huh?


Dash attack is a good kill I think... dash attack is one of zelda's better reactive punishers. It's a decent anti air espeacially when dash danced to be spaced better. in fact "dash canceling" moves makes zelda so much better.

Lol... um... run away and din's back (pivoted din's?) is so strong against people jumping in despite her slow movement speed. It's like raptor boost but slightly safer... sorta.
You can turn around din's at anypoint in your opening dash which is kinda beast. after that you still have the option of jumping to din the opposite direction as well.

way way safer than pivot fsmash I think... though that also has it's place. walk to pivot fsmash is so beast for out spacing jump-ins and dash-ins.

Also! lol, pivot dsmash. though very risky at time it's good to know you have it against certain moves. it's a very fast option to bad it hits so low...

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Too bad you can't run backwards to mess up people's spacing huh?

You can still RAR without aerials to do that... or just buffer a turn before Bair. Or pivot. Not quite as good but the best we have.

dtilt utilt still remains zelda's best kill option at high levels of play. right next to bair OOS as a punisher for dumb crap. See how bad that is?

Uair and U-smash say hello.

Dash attack is a good kill I think...

I seriously hope I misunderstood and you don´t mean to say dash attack is a good kill move...

Lol... um... run away and din's back (pivoted din's?) is so strong against people jumping in despite her slow movement speed. It's like raptor boost but slightly safer... sorta.

In the sense of being sometimes useful tech chase or medium-range punisher I guess you´re right. Otherwise they are not much alike.

 

[<π]

@RAR. Mmmm... zelda's RAR is lame! few opponents are going to let zelda toward them so freely, and with her long jump animation... and as always a shielded LK is like... asking for death... I never approach with LKs every because I'm afraid I'll sweet spot on a shield.
buffered OOS I don't think you can... you'd have to go through the shield drop animation which add's an extra 7 frames at which point you may as well fair OOS.

@Uair is hard to connect with at high levels of play. You can dodge it on reaction and that kills the move's value quite a bit. Most people learn quickly not to fall on top of zelda and way and will opt to go for edge recoveries which zelda can't defend against as well. Uair is a good aerial punisher, but speaking practically you are going to have more chances for dtilt to connect.

@usmash is awesome until people understand the value of spacing. dilt->usmash is nice, but dtilt->utilt is going to have more knock back and cannot be smash DIed out of. usmash IMO serves better as a damaging move, as an air dodge punisher, and a defensive OOS but again against people spacing there moves correctly it won't see much action there either.

@dash attack comment: It is fast at what... five frames. it kills at around 150 sweet spotted. that isn't horrible when you are a sheik main who has gotten the opponent there before transforming.

@raptor boost comment. you can use raptor boost literally to avoid moves like bowser and yoshi's fsmashes. you can use din's similarly.

 

[GodAtHand]

I always hit Uairs at tournaments. It is all about baiting, of course there are exceptions and that is characters with excellent ariel mobility, wario for instance cannot be hit with any sort of ease.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

@RAR. Mmmm... zelda's RAR is lame! few opponents are going to let zelda toward them so freely, and with her long jump animation... and as always a shielded LK is like... asking for death... I never approach with LKs every because I'm afraid I'll sweet spot on a shield.
buffered OOS I don't think you can... you'd have to go through the shield drop animation which add's an extra 7 frames at which point you may as well fair OOS.

I was talking about RAR without actually attacking. It has absolutely no advantages per se but works as mindgame. RAR Bair is sometimes useful as a punisher/finisher.

Buffer turnaround to Bair is useful only if you´re trying to sweetspot someone who can´t be sweetspotted with Fair.

usmash IMO serves better as a damaging move, as an air dodge punisher, and a defensive OOS but again against people spacing there moves correctly it won't see much action there either.

It can really be used for both killing and damaging, just not at the same time (=for the same stock).

@dash attack comment: It is fast at what... five frames. it kills at around 150 sweet spotted. that isn't horrible when you are a sheik main who has gotten the opponent there before transforming.

At those percents almost everything Zelda does can kill. Dash attack simply isn´t strong enough to be actually useful as a kill move when she has so many stronger moves in her arsenal.

 

[professor mgw]

Zelda should be in b ranking.
IN NO WAY IS BOWSER BETTER THAN ZELDA EXCEPT FOR IN POWER!

 

[Half-Split Soul]

IN NO WAY IS BOWSER BETTER THAN ZELDA EXCEPT FOR IN POWER!

*Waiting for MrEh to arrive*

 

[#HBC | Scary]

"Waits for real troll to gobble up foolish troll"

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Ftilt has more range than fsmash

You heard it here first

pretty sure the final burst of Fsmash has a longer range. And even when it doesn't it still extends farther from her hurtbox than Ftilt ever does.

 

[sniperworm]

Ftilt is basically a ****ty version of Fsmash that just trades better and can't be DId out of.

This is extraordinarily closed-minded and if this is truly your opinion of the move, then you definitely need to experiment with it more.

There really is no other way to play Zelda..... she's pretty much as simple as you can get, lol.

Imo, her metagame isn't as done as, say, DDD's, but it's getting there.

While Zelda isn't the most complex character, there are different styles of Zelda players (just look at Bobby and I). I agree that there won't be a revolutionary breakthrough in Zelda's playstyle, but I think it's a little much to imply that there's only one way to play Zelda.

I already promised to Kataefi that I´ll try to get the tests started again (although they take forever to finish) but just so you know: that threat gives too positive picture of F-tilt. Sure, it can beat turtle, but only if G&W spaces poorly.

As the person who actually discovered that Zelda's Ftilt can beat G&W's Bair, I'd like to point out that the "only if G&W spaces poorly" statement is a little over pessimistic. From my experience, if G&W uses Bair higher than the range that Zelda can beat it, it won't actually hit Zelda's head (or he'll be coming down on top of you where Usmash will beat him). If he uses it lower than the range where Ftilt wins, he won't be able to retreat it (and he'll be landing near you with it).

The real problems with up angled Ftilt versus G&W Bair is that Ftilt is slower (making it difficult to time in an actual fight) and it doesn't work well if the Bairs aren't spaced fairly well (because if he's too close he'll likely hit you with the Bair before Ftilt comes out).

Ftilt has more range than fsmash

You heard it here first

This is actually false. The final burst of Zelda's Fsmash has more horizontal range than Ftilt.

EDIT: It appears I've been beaten to the punch on this one.

@raptor boost comment. you can use raptor boost literally to avoid moves like bowser and yoshi's fsmashes. you can use din's similarly.

It sounds a little strange to punish with Din's from so close (in fact, it sounds like something I would do, lol). Unfortunately, those Fsmashes could also be punished with a stutter-stepped Fsmash, a retreating pivot grab, or a spot dodge and they all deal more damage than Din's (except spot dodge, but I assume you're goint to do something afterwards).

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i like to dash grab alot as zelda, i like the suction effect, too bad as the whole her throws are kinda meh.

 

[Kataefi]

I'm kinda talking about whenever you use it in context you also tend to walk forwards, so in that respect it tends to outreach. It's up for debate I reckon, I believe that Ftilt at its tip is ever so slightly longer reaching than Fsmash (but only by like a fraction imo), but her Fsmash's final hit is very reactive to character hurtboxes which gives it the illusion that it's longer reaching.

Ftilt's hitbox isn't her hand... there's a tiny star that emits from her hand and travels out. It's fairly disjointed, which is why it tends to trade a lot and not clank. There's also a sweetspot at the very tip of the star. Cutest hitbox I've ever seen from an attack lol!

I might take pictures and show everyone of the hitbox differences between the two =D

 

[KayLo!]

While Zelda isn't the most complex character, there are different styles of Zelda players (just look at Bobby and I). I agree that there won't be a revolutionary breakthrough in Zelda's playstyle, but I think it's a little much to imply that there's only one way to play Zelda.

Ah, I meant that there's really no way to play her other than what we've generally seen already, all current styles included. (I think that's what I meant, anyway, I can't remember what I quoted..... too lazy to look.) As in, we're not going to see someone start to play an aerial Zelda and **** because she just doesn't have those options.

It was meant to be related to my second statement that I don't expect Zelda to get any huge developments in her metagame. Maybe I should have been clearer.

In any case, I suppose I'm just used to playing characters that are a lot more flexible (i.e., Pikachu, Marth to some extent, TL even though mine is bunz)..... I guess from my experience, Zelda seems so much more basic, it's not even funny.

I still <3 her, though.

Cutest hitbox I've ever seen from an attack lol!

I might take pictures and show everyone of the hitbox differences between the two =D

Oh gosh, Kataefi, lol.

 

[CaliburChamp]

Zelda isn't that bad. She's mid tier alone and should be low high tier, one spot above Sonic when used as the Shiek/Zelda combo. She doesn't have many bad match ups, and if she does she can just press down + b. The ability to force an approach with a non reflectible projectile is super handy. The new tier list failed to understand about Zelda. If they did understand better, they would of listed Zelda/Shiek as 1 character.

At least she'll **** low tier tournaments though. That's one good thing for you guys that main her.

 

[lil cj]

Zelda isn't that bad. She's mid tier alone and should be low high tier, one spot above Sonic when used as the Shiek/Zelda combo. She doesn't have many bad match ups, and if she does she can just press down + b. The ability to force an approach with a non reflectible projectile is super handy. The new tier list failed to understand about Zelda. If they did understand better, they would of listed Zelda/Shiek as 1 character.

At least she'll **** low tier tournaments though. That's one good thing for you guys that main her.

Zelda does deserve better
I like the way you think

 

[JigglyZelda003]

a MK supporting us while a Bowser laughs? what has the world come too.....

 

[AzNfinesse]

reason she placed so low is the lack of zelda mains out there (for crying out loud, i'm the only true zelda main within the next 500 miles). if more zelda mains were to place higher in tournaments, then we'd be talking mid-tier zelda.

 

[KayLo!]

reason she placed so low is the lack of zelda mains out there (for crying out loud, i'm the only true zelda main within the next 500 miles). if more zelda mains were to place higher in tournaments, then we'd be talking mid-tier zelda.

Unless you're extremely good with her, and I'm talking crazy good, you're not going to place high in tournament with Zelda. You'll also need a very, very strong secondary to pull any high placement off, a.k.a. MK or Snake (or you could manage with Pikachu, maybe..... ....but you'll still have trouble with MK, G&W, and Martha).

She's not mid-tier. Just accept it and love her for her crappiness.

 

[sniperworm]

You'll also need a very, very strong secondary to pull any high placement off, a.k.a. MK or Snake (or you could manage with Pikachu, maybe..... ....but you'll still have trouble with MK, G&W, and Martha).

Yeah it's sad about the whole Pikachu and Zelda thing. I was going to work on my Pikachu to help out my Zelda (I love Pikachu, it's so cute) but then I realized that they share a bunch of the same bad matchups.

a MK supporting us while a Bowser laughs? what has the world come too.....

Actually this makes perfect sense. MK wrecks Zelda so of course they'd want to see more of us. Bowser is Bowser, that's all I should have to say.

 

[KayLo!]

Yeah it's sad about the whole Pikachu and Zelda thing. I was going to work on my Pikachu to help out my Zelda (I love Pikachu, it's so cute) but then I realized that they share a bunch of the same bad matchups.

Work on the 'chu!!!!!!!

They do share those three bad matchups (and ROB, if your Zelda can't handle ROB), but all of them are still very do-able with Pika, even Marth. You just have to believe in the Power of Camp (except vs. G&W, obviously), lol. Besides, Pika still does better against MK than most other characters do, minus MK himself and Snake.

Hawaii needs some Pika action.

And, uh, Zelda ftw to keep this post on topic.

 

[lil cj]

The best secondary(s) for Zelda
is Snake and Marth
They take care of all her bad matchups

Snake ***** G&W and is one of MK's only real challenges
And Marth ***** Olimar and almost anybody except MK

Thats her 3 worst matchups
right there, taken care of

 

[Ochobobo]

Also, if you like, ROB as a counter for Snake, lol.

 

[KayLo!]

Or MK, who ***** everybody, but I don't support picking up dat masked puffball.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i'll just support my zelda w/ my other mains, they get by lol.

 

[lil cj]

MK is cool

Thanks to him
All the other characters stepped their game up,
trying find ways to beat him
Which makes them better

Meta Knight=Meta Game

It wasnt a coinencidence lol

 

[sniperworm]

Work on the 'chu!!!!!!!

They do share those three bad matchups (and ROB, if your Zelda can't handle ROB), but all of them are still very do-able with Pika, even Marth. You just have to believe in the Power of Camp (except vs. G&W, obviously), lol. Besides, Pika still does better against MK than most other characters do, minus MK himself and Snake.

Hawaii needs some Pika action.

And, uh, Zelda ftw to keep this post on topic.

lol, I haven't given up on Pikachu. It's just hard to find a place for Pikachu because for all the MUs that I'd want to use it for, I already have Sheik (or Pikachu is still at a disadvantage). That being said, as of right now, it's my only character (besides Zelda/Sheik) that could potentially become a part of my tournament arsenal.

I would never really use my other friendlies characters (Sonic and Diddy) in a tournament match. I'm too silly with Diddy and Sonic is Sonic.

By the way, there's no need to convince me of the "Power of Camp". I outcamp people with Din's ...

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Zelda isn't that bad. She's mid tier alone and should be low high tier, one spot above Sonic when used as the Shiek/Zelda combo. She doesn't have many bad match ups, and if she does she can just press down + b. The ability to force an approach with a non reflectible projectile is super handy. The new tier list failed to understand about Zelda. If they did understand better, they would of listed Zelda/Shiek as 1 character.

At least she'll **** low tier tournaments though. That's one good thing for you guys that main her.

this last tier list DID underrate her... but not by a terribly large amount. She's decent, but she's not good. And with sheik she IS good, but not GREAT.

 

[Flayl]

Lol @ Mr. Eh trash talking the Zelda boards ^^

Don't worry guys, if you use your full moveset, Zelda is a better character than Bowser. The Japanese got it right, let's wait for the SBR to wake up.

 

[Brinzy]

MrEh has seeped through like, every thread here.


So, what shall we do? Zelda + MK to get her cheesy points or what.

 

[MrEh]

If you try to RAR Dedede, then you're going to die.

If you try to RAR anyone, then you're going to die.

This isn't Melee. You can't just jump in the air and kick.

Bowser is Bowser, that's all I should have to say.

We have a lot of free time. I mean, it's not like we're wrecking tournaments after all. lol

She's decent, but she's not good

I consider decent to be at least mid tier. And I doubt Zelda's heading in that direction.

Lol @ Mr. Eh trash talking the Zelda boards ^^

That's what I do.

Don't worry guys, if you use your full moveset, Zelda is a better character than Bowser.

You mean Sheik? ^^

The Japanese got it right, let's wait for the SBR to wake up.

The Japanese also have Pit as top tier. :/

By the way, there's no need to convince me of the "Power of Camp". I outcamp people with Din's ...

I never notice your camping because Bowser gets camped by everyone anyway. lol

 

[Brinzy]

I remember getting RAR'd once by Villi against my Ness at 59%. I never actually expected a Zelda to RAR. I was starting up PK Thunder, so I was confused when I hit the blastzone. It looks cute, but yeah, that's basically... lol.

 

[sniperworm]

This isn't Melee. You can't just jump in the air and kick.

LIES! As long as you're nowhere near them, you can jump in the air and kick all you want.

So, what shall we do? Zelda + MK to get her cheesy points or what.

They're not cheesy points if you actually use Zelda a decent amount of the time.

 

[Brinzy]

I'm not sure if I have the skill to simply place top 8 with bipolar princess, so I may need another character to win it for me.

 

[MrEh]

I once RARed someone with Bowser. When you actually attempt something like that, you know you're either desperate for the kill or ********.

I'm both.

LIES! As long as you're nowhere near them, you can jump in the air and kick all you want.

Extra taunts are always nice to have.

I'm not sure if I have the skill to simply place top 8 with bipolar princess, so I may need another character to win it for me.

Placing in the top 8 with any character under S or A tier is very difficult. And it gets exponentially harder the further you go down the tier list.

 

[sniperworm]

I never notice your camping because Bowser gets camped by everyone anyway. lol

I don't camp against you, it's all about the GREED

I'm not sure if I have the skill to simply place top 8 with bipolar princess, so I may need another character to win it for me.

Metaknight...

 

[Brinzy]

EDIT: Yeah, that's why I mentioned MK already.

I should just second MK.

G&W coming to wreck my princess? MK'd.

Falco coming to PEW PEW!? MK'd.

Ike coming to get free money? MK'd in low tier, fo srs.

Sonic coming to call her slow? MK'd.


... Why don't I just use Zelda until I'm one match away from losing and then bust out MK?

 

[MrEh]

I don't camp against you, it's all about the GREED

Ftilt, Ftilt, Fsmash suddenly becomes a good idea when you're GREEDY. lol

Why don't I just use Zelda until I'm one match away from losing and then bust out MK?

That's what DM does. lol

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Ike coming to get free money? MK'd in low tier, fo srs.

O___O press down+D... Z/S needs more rep!