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Zelda's new tier list placement

M@v

Subarashii!
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Meta Knight
Snake
Wario
Falco
Diddy Kong
King Dedede


Marth
Mr. Game & Watch
Pikachu
Olimar
Ice Climbers
R.O.B.
Kirby


Lucario
Zero Suit Samus
Toon Link
Pit
Donkey Kong


Peach
Luigi
Fox
Wolf
Sonic
Sheik


Bowser
Zelda
Pokémon Trainer
Ike


Lucas
Mario
Ness
Yoshi
Samus


Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon
Link
Ganondorf
Sadaharu Inui​



Below bowser, above Pokemon trainer.

What do you guys think?

I'm kind of surprised she's that low, but look at the bright side: She's a low tier main now =D. Plus, sheik went up a good bit.
 

KayLo!

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I actually wanted her to go down farther, only because I feel like many TOs won't allow D tier for low tier tournies. Selfish but true, lol. Also, she kinda sucks a lot.

Anyways, I'm not surprised.
 

Flayl

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My beef is that Zelda and Shiek SHOULDN'T BE ****ING SEPERATED. For Zelda to join low tier tournaments you'd have to ban DownB, that's how ****ing stupid it is.
 

Flayl

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I don't think anybody can actually pull off that taunt change thing, lol.
 

KayLo!

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I don't think anybody can actually pull off that taunt change thing, lol.
False. I know a few people who can pull it off consistently. *** if I can, though.

However, it's not something you can accidentally do, while I've mistakenly down b'd a few times. Rare, but it happens.
 

BRoomer
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Zelda... should have gotten lower.

Zelda is not better than bowser, not at all.
 

BRoomer
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oh... oh... reading obviously isn't a strong point of mine. Discrediting myself though... thats where I truely shine.
 

MrEh

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The crappier Zelda gets, the more viable she becomes in low tier tournaments. lol

Winning with her is impossible anyway, so you mind as well hope that you can use her in an environment where she can actually win.
 

Hence

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In the early release of Brawl eveyone said Lucas was practically god too. It doesn't matter how powerful your attacks are if you cannot use them without being predictable.
 

Half-Split Soul

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Winning with her is impossible anyway, so you mind as well hope that you can use her in an environment where she can actually win.
Bowser main talking about characters that can´t win... lol.

And yeah, I remember those times when everybody said that Zelda will end up being at least upper middle tier... the times when nobody could SDI her smashes... the golden times.
 

BRoomer
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I don't think I have a single post saying zelda is good. I beginning to wonder if it's worth it trying to incorporate her into my sheik game. She is so easy to evade and camp that her amazing kill moves only look pretty.
 

gm jack

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I don't think I have a single post saying zelda is good. I beginning to wonder if it's worth it trying to incorporate her into my sheik game. She is so easy to evade and camp that her amazing kill moves only look pretty.
There are some high tiers she does better against than Sheik, for example, Ice Climbers and I think DDD. Several of Sheiks bad match ups are due to the inability to kill them at a reasonable percentage. If you don't keep the Ftilt stale enough for an Usmash tipper, if you can safely get to Zelda, you can sometimes play patiently enough for them to make a mistake and get hit by a fresh Usmash, which is often all it will take for the kill.
 

BRoomer
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no one approaches zelda if they are at kill percent, so unless you are up a stock you are at the disadvantage.

I'm kinda meh about the IC match up I think sheik has a better keep away game than zelda making it easier to camp with her against ICs
I haven't tried zelda vs D3 but I imagine ftilt ***** slow behind zelda and I know from personal experience sheik can combo the mess out of D3.

I love being proven wrong though so.
 

Brinzy

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Ftilt is an easily telegraphed move, and Zelda can punish it on reaction with fair or a dash attack, though the timing is a little strict. It doesn't hamper Zelda all that much.

Zelda separates the ICs very easily. If you manage to Usmash them, they're basically screwed. Fsmash is safe on block against them. Nair, if you can land it, takes them apart easily as well. Din's can screw up any camping they plan to do, and really, the minimal damage Zelda takes is a lot less horrible than having one of them get hit by Din's. I don't see how Sheik really does better at keeping them away, as Zelda's defensive game is pretty good. Also, some of the advantages that the ICs have (like being pretty much impossible to throw) don't mean anything to Zelda because nobody's gonna try to grab with her anyway, but if she does get it, D-throw keeps Nana away and they get separated.

I can only see Sheik doing better on a stage like Rainbow Cruise.


And really, unless she's being camped by, I don't know, Olimar, Zelda only needs one hit, which is not impossible between her smashes and smart play.
 

Kataefi

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Yeah lol people have been a bit cynical lately. Cheer up everyone :)

I was expecting her to drop a little more to be honest. Take care of your own Zelda first guys before you start worrying about generic Zelda on the tier list =D
 

sniperworm

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Yeah lol people have been a bit cynical lately. Cheer up everyone :)

I was expecting her to drop a little more to be honest. Take care of your own Zelda first guys before you start worrying about generic Zelda on the tier list =D
Zelda's position on the tier list doesn't actually mean anything. We don't get buffs or nerfs based on our tiering, so what's the big deal?

So yeah, like Kataefi said, just focus on getting better with Zelda (or drop her and pick up MK, you know, whichever).
 

GodAtHand

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This is good, now I can make people feel even worse when they lose to me.
^_^
I'm back on the New England Power Ranking btw, Zelda all the way!
 

Canvasofgrey

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I'm not particularly thrilled about the movement change. But at least now I can use Zelda in low-tier tournies.

Zelda is a good character, there are just plenty more characters which are better. It doesn't matter if Zelda can easily beat one high tier character or another, this isn't a game of rock-paper-scissor, you have to account accumulatively to how good each character had fared against the rest of the crew.
 

MrEh

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Bowser main talking about characters that can´t win... lol.
Bowser has a exponentially better chance of winning a tournament then Zelda does. Granted, the odds are still terrible, but I enjoy not getting ***** by MK. XD


Take care of your own Zelda first guys before you start worrying about generic Zelda on the tier list =D
The problem is that most of the Zelda players here don't go to tournaments and aren't competitive. So idk why most of them are even bothered by the tier placing in the first place.


(or drop her and pick up MK, you know, whichever).
This.


Zelda is a good character, there are just plenty more characters which are better. It doesn't matter if Zelda can easily beat one high tier character or another, this isn't a game of rock-paper-scissor, you have to account accumulatively to how good each character had fared against the rest of the crew.
Zelda is not a good character. Every character below high tier is not tournament viable, and therefore, bad. It doesn't matter how well you do on the cast, it matters how well you do against the top, because those are the most prevalent characters in tournaments, and the only characters that really matter. If we account how she does against the top 10, this is what we get. ^^

*these are just my opinions*

Meta Knight 25-75
Snake 30-70
Wario 40-60
Falco 40-60
Diddy 40-60
Dedede 45-55
Marth 40-60
Game and Watch 30-70
Pikachu 40-60
Olimar 30-70
Average ratio is 36-64

36-64 is terrible. Now, let's average it out in accordance to how common these characters are in tournaments. (again, this is just my estimate)

MK 28%
Snake 20%
Dedede 10%
Marth 8%
Game and Watch 8%
Diddy 8%
Falco 5%
Wario 5%
Pikachu 3%
Olimar 3%
Average ratio is 32.4-67.6

That's right, Zelda's average matchup against the top ten is about 32-68.

32-68 is not good. That's nearly a death matchup all the time.
 

lil cj

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This is terrible
Zelda doesnt need to be that low!!!!
Zelda is mid tier material
She's too good to be low tier

How did Sheik pass her???
They should be together
Bowser is separating them...why???

Ive never played a good Bowser before
but I know Zelda is better

Whats with all the Zelda hate Mr. Eh lol

Those numbers mean nothing
Its all about the player:)
 

MrEh

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This is terrible
No it isn't.


Zelda doesnt need to be that low!!!!
Yes she does.


Zelda is mid tier material
No she isn't.


She's too good to be low tier
No she isn't.


How did Sheik pass her???
Sheik is better.


They should be together
No they shouldn't.


Bowser is separating them...why???
Bowser is better then Zelda.


Ive never played a good Bowser before
Then your opinion is skewed.


but I know Zelda is better
No she isn't.


Whats with all the Zelda hate Mr. Eh lol
Zelda is bad.


Those numbers mean nothing
Yes they do.


Its all about the player:)
And character choice.



This post was fun ^^
 

Darkmusician

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Zelda was bound to go lower. She's not that good.

Bowser stands a better chance against the high tiers than Zelda.

I'm gonna subscribe and watch the fun.
 

KayLo!

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This is terrible
Zelda doesnt need to be that low!!!!
Zelda is mid tier material
She's too good to be low tier

How did Sheik pass her???
They should be together
Bowser is separating them...why???

Ive never played a good Bowser before
but I know Zelda is better

Whats with all the Zelda hate Mr. Eh lol

Those numbers mean nothing
Its all about the player:)
@.@

*head explodes*
 

sniperworm

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I love MrEh's posts, they're informative but in a very trollish sort of way.

Zelda was bound to go lower. She's not that good.

Bowser stands a better chance against the high tiers than Zelda.

I'm gonna subscribe and watch the fun.
Hey, this gives more legitimacy to us holding that Zelda challenge at the HSI.
 

zeldspazz

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I personally think she was perfect right where she stood in the last list...not high but not low. She has almost even matchups with a majority of the cast, her tourny results and lack of an advancing metagame is what is holding her down =\ I'd get out in tournaments but there are never any near me. But, dropping her four spots seems a bit...much, I was only expecting 1-2. Oh well *waits to get flamed by Mr-Eh* =D
 

MrEh

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I wanted to calculate Bowser's matchups too, since lil cj thinks that Zelda is better then Bowser.

*these are just my opinions*

Meta Knight 40-60
Snake 40-60
Wario 45-55
Falco 45-55
Diddy 35-65
Dedede 35-65 (since the infinite is banned in most places)
Marth 40-60
Game and Watch 40-60
Pikachu 40-60
Olimar 40-60
Average ratio is 40-60

40-60 is bad, but not terrible. It's definitely better then Zelda's 36-64. Now, let's average it out in accordance to how common these characters are in tournaments. (again, this is just my estimate)

MK 28%
Snake 20%
Dedede 10%
Marth 8%
Game and Watch 8%
Diddy 8%
Falco 5%
Wario 5%
Pikachu 3%
Olimar 3%
Average ratio is 38.8-61.2

Bowser's average matchup against the top ten is about 39-61, a difference of about 22 points. Compared to Zelda's 32-68, a difference of 36 points.Compared to half the cast, that ratio is pretty darn good. lol

(Of course, this doesn't prove anything. I just did it to make Bowser seem better then Zelda, which he is.)


I personally think she was perfect right where she stood in the last list...not high but not low.
I personally believe she should be at the top of low.


She has almost even matchups with a majority of the cast
It doesn't matter if you go even with the low tiers. If you get ***** by the top, then beating low is moot.

And Zelda has disadvantageous matchups with pretty much all of the mid tiers. The higher you go, the worse it gets.


her tourny results and lack of an advancing metagame is what is holding her down =\
She has bad tournament results because she sucks. Her metagame is not advancing because she is simply a predictable and limited character.


But, dropping her four spots seems a bit...much
She should've dropped six or seven spots.


Oh well *waits to get flamed by Mr-Eh* =D
*gasp*

I feel insulted good sir! I don't flame, I troll. ^^
 

BLI7ZARD

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she has a lot of bad matchups so learn them and be creative about how you play. All you have to do is find weak points or develop mind gmaes or something. either im still going to continue to use zelda mainly because i like her defensive style.
 

Rykoshet

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No really, I quit.
The crappier Zelda gets, the more viable she becomes in low tier tournaments. lol

Winning with her is impossible anyway, so you mind as well hope that you can use her in an environment where she can actually win.
Ike says hi. Free money ftw.
 

SamuraiPanda

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Zelda should be low tier. She is so incredibly limited that its just sad. Top of E tier sounds closer to where she should be.
 
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