Zelda's new tier list placement

[Brinzy]

Dunno about that. Pretty sure she could just grab him on reaction of him airdodging and it'll come out at the right time...

EDIT: Also, if she really doesn't have the advantage against DDD, they need to not agree to it and leave it there so it misguides people... though I'll be brainwashed and believe she still works well enough against him.

 

[goodkid]

It's too bad that she's low, but I'm shocked that they haven't placed Sheik/Zelda together yet. Zelda is not that good of a solo character at high-level play, but with Sheik...man that potential has not been seen yet.

Sheik is the only way for Zelda to get attention @ high-level play. Only with Sheik, will Zelda move up this tier list.

 

[DTP]

It's too bad that she's low, but I'm shocked that they haven't placed Sheik/Zelda together yet. Zelda is not that good of a solo character at high-level play, but with Sheik...man that potential has not been seen yet.

Sheik is the only way for Zelda to get attention @ high-level play. Only with Sheik, will Zelda move up this tier list.

I completely agree with you actually.
Sheik + Zelda is absolute **** imo

They're too good!

They compliment each other really well

 

[MrEh]

Sheik Zelda still gets ***** by MK. lol

 

[DTP]

Sheik Zelda still gets ***** by MK. lol

Shhh..... no need to speak the truth out loud

lol

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

EDIT: Also, if she really doesn't have the advantage against DDD, they need to not agree to it and leave it there so it misguides people... though I'll be brainwashed and believe she still works well enough against him.

... can we go with well-ish?

 

[gm jack]

Sheik Zelda still gets ***** by MK. lol

Sheik can kill MK before 100% with the GRUST, but that takes a lot of practice to be able to pull off reliably. Still, while Sheik does better, it still isn't good. She is just fast enough to get a few hits in if the MK messes up, while Zelda needs them to pretty much set themselves up for getting hit.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

my experience with MK:

Zelda is very capable of going toe to toe with a MK that doesn't know the correct spacing against zelda... Hell, they go about even at that point..... problem: most MKs, even if they don't know the spacing, will figure it out.

Sheik isn't naturally as good against MK, but at least sheik has options once MK spaces correctly.

 

[MrEh]

MK will still win even if he doesn't space. He just needs to Nado around and gimp her.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

MK will still win even if he doesn't space. He just needs to Nado around and gimp her.

ah... I should have phrased that better:

"If MK doesn't know the spacing and Zelda DOES."

We can beat out nado with the right moves... trancendent priority on practically our whole moveset.

 

[MrEh]

You can't beat it out consistently.

The end.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

You can't beat it out consistently.

The end.

no, but most of what we can use to beat it out will hurt badly if it connects.... hell.. DIN'S beats it out... that's not even hard to hit a nado with.



But, honestly, I shan't get into an argument about it because it's really a moot point. Who cares what Zelda can do to an MK with substandard spacing?

 

[daisho]

For all you guys who think that Zelda has an advantage on Dedede, she doesn't. It only seems that way at lower levels of play or against Dedede's who don't know the Zelda matchup.

So you are the only one who I have ever heard say that and you expect me to believe you? Do you even play Zelda or DDD?

Go back to teh bowser boards!

 

[MrEh]

Din's doesn't beat out the Nado at close range. Hell, the only way Din's will beat out the Nado would be if you used Din's from like, over halfway across FD.

If MK is halfway across the stage and trying to Nado you, he's a moron.

So you are the only one who I have ever heard say that and you expect me to believe you? Do you even play Zelda or DDD?

I play with DM, who's most likely the best Zelda in the nation. I know Zelda.

Go back to teh bowser boards!

No.

 

[MrEh]

EDIT: accidental double post

 

[daisho]

But you don't know DDD... or the Zelda DDD matchup...?

 

[MrEh]

But you don't know DDD... or the Zelda DDD matchup...?

I do.

All Dedede has to do is shieldgrab Zelda, Ftilt to screw her spacing, and Bair her offstage.


Sound simple? Well that's all there is to it.

 

[<π]

People don't understand. If people aren't blindly rushing into your smashes you are going to lose the match. Seems to me like tahts really all there is too it. It's hard to mind game in an Fsmash, lol.

Zelda's problem isn't movement speed or slow attacks. Bowser has similar attributes and in my opinion still does much better overall. It's zelda inability to attack safely and her complete lack of strong defensive options that are killing her.

If Love had one more frame of invulnerability zelda would be awesome. Unfortunately 'if' don't get you very far in anything but brawl plus.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

If Love had one more frame of invulnerability zelda would be awesome. Unfortunately 'if' don't get you very far in anything but brawl plus.

1 invincibility frame more? Seriously, how would that alone turn Zelda from what you call "horrible" into "awesome"? Even if we actually assumed that it would make NL much better attack (which it wouldn´t) rest of her moveset would still be just like it is now. One good attack alone wouldn´t make her much better.

 

[Brinzy]

I think he means having a frame to overlap with the actual attack, so it can help it trade less. Not entirely sure though.

And also, isn't DDD's ftilt like... the only move to outrange Zelda on the ground? Does this not mean you can pretty much predict what he's going to do at a certain range and then punish it with fair/dash attack/something? Don't tell me his dash grab has as much range as his ftilt.

 

[KayLo!]

All Dedede has to do is shieldgrab Zelda, Ftilt to screw her spacing, and Bair her offstage.

Sound simple? Well that's all there is to it.

Yeah, that's basically all there is to it.

However, ftilt doesn't pose as much of a threat as all that. It's a pretty slow move (12 frames, and its startup animation clearly says "I'M ABOUT TO SPIN MY HAMMER @ YOU"..... personally, I don't find it hard to block on reaction), most DDDs fall into a pattern of when they use it, and if you shield it, you're good to punish with pretty much anything as long as you're mid-hammer -- around the stick part -- or closer.

And also, isn't DDD's ftilt like... the only move to outrange Zelda on the ground? Does this not mean you can pretty much predict what he's going to do at a certain range and then punish it with fair/dash attack/something? Don't tell me his dash grab has as much range as his ftilt.

Uhhh, his dtilt might outrange her, but I can't remember. That would be a bad move for him to try to space with, though.

9/10, he'll try to ftilt, dair, bair, or grab you out of your approach depending on what you do and where you're coming from. If you have a habit of stopping right outside of grab range on the ground, he'll try ftilt at least the first few times, but better DDDs will mix it up, so Zelda should as well.

His dash grab's range is a little over half the length of FD, I'm for serious. But if he whiffs, the cooldown on it is a free meal for Zelda.

EDIT: I wrote all of this thinking it was in the DDD matchup thread..... my bad, lol. Didn't mean to keep this in Zelda vs. DDD mode.

 

[<π]

I think he means having a frame to overlap with the actual attack, so it can help it trade less. Not entirely sure though.

And also, isn't DDD's ftilt like... the only move to outrange Zelda on the ground? Does this not mean you can pretty much predict what he's going to do at a certain range and then punish it with fair/dash attack/something? Don't tell me his dash grab has as much range as his ftilt.

yar overlap.

Thats the thing with zelda she out ranges most people but in her after lag most characters can punish all of her moves.

 

[MrEh]

Zelda's problem isn't movement speed or slow attacks. Bowser has similar attributes and in my opinion still does much better overall. It's zelda inability to attack safely and her complete lack of strong defensive options that are killing her.

Bowser is better because he has a better recovery, overall easier time killing things, and he's heavy as hell.

Also, Fortress OoS.

 

[lil cj]

Bowser is better because he has a better recovery, overall easier time killing things, and he's heavy as hell.

Also, Fortress OoS.

A better recovery??
Zelda's goes further than Bowsers
His recovery is almost as bad as DK's

And Zelda has just as many kill moves as Bowser

Also its so easy to lightning kick Bowser
as demonstrated in your match with DM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnZZey2UUvo&feature=channel_page

Fortress is pretty good though

Better??
Their equal

 

[MrEh]

A better recovery??

Yes.

Zelda's goes further than Bowsers

It's also slow on startup, has massive landing lag, and is very predictable.

His recovery is almost as bad as DK's

DK's recovery isn't bad.

And Zelda has just as many kill moves as Bowser

Zelda
Fair
Bair
Uair
Dair
Usmash
Dsmash
Fsmash

Bowser
Ftilt
Utilt
Dtilt
Fair
Bair
Uair
Fsmash
Dsmash
Usmash
DownB
UpB
SideB

You were saying?

Also its so easy to lightning kick Bowser
as demonstrated in your match with DM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnZZ...[QUOTE]Their equal:)[/QUOTE] No they're not.

 

[lil cj]

Yes.

Maybe

It's also slow on startup, has massive landing lag, and is very predictable.

Agreed

DK's recovery isn't bad.

Its bad vertically
Horizontally its good

Zelda
Fair
Bair
Uair
Dair
Usmash
Dsmash
Fsmash

Bowser
Ftilt
Utilt
Dtilt
Fair
Bair
Uair
Fsmash
Dsmash
Usmash
DownB
UpB
SideB

You were saying?

You forgot
Ftilt and Utilt
for Zelda

btw out of Bowser's kill moves
most of them are easily avoidable

That match is 4 months old.

It still shows how easy it is to lightning kick Bowser
You do pretty good against The Best Zelda btw
But I hope you see what she can really do in the hands
of a skilled player

And this isn't about the Zelda/Bowser matchup. This is about who's better overall. And last I checked, Bowser doesn't get ***** by the top

I thought this was a discussion on Zelda's tier placement
and why she is where she is. How did Bowser come up
in this discussion?
Are you saying he's better because
He's one spot above Zelda??
If thats the case then Sonic is better than Bowser

Lets see based off the Bowser matchup thread
...he gets ***** by DDD definitely, his worst matchup, has an infinite on Bowser

And Diddy is another terrible matchup

Lets not forget his 40-60 matchups
Snake, Marth, G&W,ROB...

He does ok against MK...he has an infinite or grab release thing on him
if Im not mistaking
Thats a plus


This is fun

 

[MrEh]

You forgot
Ftilt and Utilt

Yeah, I did forget about Utilt. Ftilt is terrible for killing though. I have never seen any Zelda kill with an Ftilt in a tournament match. That's how bad it is.

btw out of Bowser's kill moves
most of them are easily avoidable

You can't avoid Bowser's Fsmash if he's doing it correctly.

I thought this was a discussion on Zelda's tier placement
and why she is where she is. How did Bowser come up
in this discussion?

Bower came up because Bowser is the posterboy for crappiness. In the last tier list, the Fox players had the same discussion, since Fox was below Bowser.

Are you saying he's better because
He's one spot above Zelda??

Yes. That's how a tier list works.

If thats the case then Sonic is better than Bowser

That's correct.

Lets see based off the Bowser matchup thread
...he gets ***** by DDD definitely, his worst matchup, has an infinite on Bowser

And Diddy is another terrible matchup

Diddy and Dedede are no where near as common as MK and Snake. And Zelda gets utterly ***** by both of them.

Lets not forget his 40-60 matchups
Snake, Marth, G&W,ROB...

40-60 matchups are still winnable. It's better then Zelda, who gets beat so hard by the two best characters in the game.

 

[lil cj]

You bring up good points

But just remember,
tier lists are mostly about popularity
not whose better

The more popular the character is the more their meta game
develops

Thats how Sonic moved up
Tournies have been filled with Sonic mains lately
and the odds of him winning or getting top 8
increased

I bet if some of the low tiers
were used more they wouldnt be where they are now

MK and Snake have weaknesses
and if you find them with your character
you can win

Ok you say 40-60 is winnable
based off the Zelda matchup thread
The MK and Snake matchup is 40-60
so its winnable

Zelda's main concerns are Olimar and G&W(Those are her worst matchups)
Not MK and Snake

And like Diddy and DDD
Oli and G&W arent as common as MK and Snake either


And theres always secondaries

 

[KayLo!]

It still shows how easy it is to lightning kick Bowser
You do pretty good against The Best Zelda btw
But I hope you see what she can really do in the hands
of a skilled player

........Are you implying that DM isn't skilled??? @.@ Did I just walk into an alternate dimension where "best Zelda" = unskilled?

I hope I misinterpreted what you meant.

 

[lil cj]

........Are you implying that DM isn't skilled??? @.@ Did I just walk into an alternate dimension where "best Zelda" = unskilled?

I hope I misinterpreted what you meant.

lol
Where did u get that??
I meant he is skilled...the best actually
And since Mr. Eh always says Zelda sucks and he always plays
DM he can see first hand what The Best and most skilled Zelda
player is like, which is DM

Edit:
Darkmusician is an inspiration to all Zelda mains
He inspired me to use Zelda lol
And whenever people say bad things about Zelda
and lower my spirits about her
I just watch a DM video
and everything is alright

 

[KayLo!]

lol
Where did u get that
I meant he is skilled
And since Mr. Eh always says Zelda sucks and he always plays
DM he can see first hand what The Best and most skilled Zelda
player is like, which is DM

Oh, ok, I did misinterpret, then. I thought so, it's just hard to understand you sometimes with your.... uhh. Unique posting style.

 

[lil cj]

Oh, ok, I did misinterpret, then. I thought so, it's just hard to understand you sometimes with your.... uhh. Unique posting style.

lol
I'll try to be more clear

 

[zeldspazz]

Zelda isn't limited, she has Shiek. In fact, she is the 2nd-least limited character if you think about it XD (Pokemon trainer least-limited obviously). Think about that =o I'm going to bed now

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

pretty sure the comments made were made assuming no sheik.

Zelda
Fair
Bair
Uair
Dair
Usmash
Dsmash
Fsmash

Bowser
Ftilt
Utilt
Dtilt
Fair
Bair
Uair
Fsmash
Dsmash
Usmash
DownB
UpB
SideB

you forgot zelda's Utilt. Hell, even her Ftilt to a lesser extent. (though I'm pretty sure both kill earlier than some of the moves you saw fit to call kill moves for bowser.)

 

[sniperworm]

Zelda isn't limited, she has Shiek. In fact, she is the 2nd-least limited character if you think about it XD (Pokemon trainer least-limited obviously). Think about that =o I'm going to bed now

I'm pretty sure people are talking about quality of options, not quantity. However, speaking of quantity, Zelda actually has less options at any given moment (considering her DownB isn't an actual move) than your standard character.

 

[MrEh]

The MK and Snake matchup is 40-60
so its winnable

It's not 40-60, those ratios are old.

Zelda vs Snake is 30-70.

Zelda vs MK is 30-70 or lower.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

It's not 40-60, those ratios are old.

Zelda vs Snake is 30-70.

Zelda vs MK is 30-70 or lower.

I find snake worse than MK personally.... but I probably just haven't been gimped enough to make me start crying yet.

 

[MrEh]

you forgot zelda's Utilt. Hell, even her Ftilt to a lesser extent. (though I'm pretty sure both kill earlier than some of the moves you saw fit to call kill moves for bowser.)

Thank you for telling me I forgot Utilt and Ftilt.

Yeah, I did forget about Utilt. Ftilt is terrible for killing though. I have never seen any Zelda kill with an Ftilt in a tournament match. That's how bad it is.

That was posted before your post.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Thank you for telling me I forgot Utilt and Ftilt.

That was posted before your post.

Zelda's Ftilt Vs. Bowser's Dtilt... you're really calling Bowser's Dtilt a reliable kill move, bue zelda's Ftilt non-viable?

 

[SinkingHigher]

Really sonic? Really? You think f-tilt is a good kill move?

Perhaps if you don't know what your doing and your opponent are getting to 150% before they're killed...

F-tilt is not a good kill move. Of all the heavy hitter moves, I'm fairly sure it's at the bottom of the list.