Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

[Kataefi]

Ahem... ^^

You can expect these types of summaries for all characters.

And royal also writes great summaries too =D

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I'm pretty sure I gave reasons that, while involving priority, weren't as simple as "Zelda's Priority > Sonic's.... we win"

anyway it's the simple case of options. Zelda has multiple reliable options for stopping sonic's approaches and sonic really does lack an option that discourages zelda from stonewalling him. it's not pretty and it might not be entirely sophisticated, but that doesn't make it wrong.

i.e. Guy with gun beats guy without... simple? true? good enough. You could go into all the ways the gunless guy COULD overtake the armed one... but, end of the day, he's got his work cut out for him.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

since apparently the mods dont like new threads for this purpose...... the pikachus are currently discussing zelda. any help from you guys would be greatly appreciated http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=218465

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Seriously, Hedgedawg will tell you, I know Zelda, she's also my top secondary.

it's true. he does. I can't vouch for how much he knows sonic, but I know he has a prety deep understanding of the metagame from most vantages. I don't think he's disagreeing with our end decision of 60:40-55:45, just that we have poor reasoning for reaching said decision.

and it's true we can't ignore the effectiveness of mindgames, but I don't think that we were. I think that sonic mains insisted that we weren't giving his mindgames enough credence when, the fact is, if his mindgames were as matchup changing as they'd like to suggest, then he'd be one of the game's best characters. The fact is, he's got a big dissadvantage to overcome and mindgames can only make it more even, but the can't overcome in this case, the gap is too great for sonic's mindgames, however good they are, to give him an advantage unless the sonic user is just plain better than the zelda user, or if stage choice helped too.

 

[Chis]

You guys are exaggerating your advantage some what.

 

[Bandit]

I love your loyalty to your character, seriously I do, but ignorance to the faults of your character are not acceptable in a match-up discussion.

Dtilt > Sonic
Range > Sonic
Priority > Sonic

The only reason this is not complete counter is Sonic's ability to dance around and bait moves or screw up timing. He works incredibly hard just to achieve damage, and Zelda can hit sonic with one move and equal all of sonic's hardwork.

 

[Chis]

Yeah, thanks for stereotyping me as a fanboy when you know nothing about me or my life. So you must be a Zelda fan boy am I correct? Oh, and thanks for insulting me, that's what I come to smash boards for.

I love your loyalty to your character, seriously I do, but ignorance to the faults of your character are not acceptable in a match-up discussion.

Dtilt > Sonic

Hm, Sonic runs FD in under 1 second. Dtilt extends your hurt box. I camp out side it's range. What next?

Range > Sonic

Lag< Sonic

Priority > Sonic

The only reason this is not complete counter is Sonic's ability to dance around and bait moves or screw up timing. He works incredibly hard just to achieve damage, and Zelda can hit sonic with one move and equal all of sonic's hardwork.

Exaggeration. If Sonic gets a lead and camps outside your range, what are your options? Zelda doesn't shut down Sonic's approaches but hinder them. Sonic's not that weak either. Sonic doesn't just have faint ability. He can punish too. So what if Zelda whiffs up an attack?What of I camp outside your range? I do have match up experience, now think carefully before answering.

 

[DMG]

I think it's closer to even than you would imagine. I dunno Sonic has some potential in this...

 

[Bandit]

"If sonic gets the lead... run away until time runs out"

This seems like the same strategy DMG proposed for Wario; I love how you guys think. I love how much brawl has turned into a non-combative, hide from your opponent type of fighting game. It is no wonder TvC is catching on so strong in my region at these tournaments; at least you fight each other in that game.

 

[Chis]

Well done for quoting me incorrectly. And also ignoring my points and responding with a useless post. Try again.

 

[Bandit]

Sonic has to get inside the range and defenses of Zelda in order to cause damage. She out ranges him, so if you camp outside of her range, how are you hitting her? We don't just spam laggy moves and allow you to run inside and punish. A smart Zelda would know they have to stick with her faster attacks in order to not be caught in a lag situation.

Also, your last post before I commented simply stated that we Zeldas exaggerate our advantage but you offered no evidence as to your counterpoint. Your reply to my purposefully exaggerated post spoke of how fast he runs and extending my hurt box when I dtilt. If you sit outside dtilt range, that's great, but I am not going to be spamming the move hoping you run into it. You still have yet to offer any real evidence that our perspective is incorrect.

Lastly, you should use your posts more to help discussion instead of trying to discredit me. Besides, what kind of insult is "fanboy" anyway? Serious loss of man points there.

 

[Chis]

Sonic has to get inside the range and defenses of Zelda in order to cause damage. She out ranges him, so if you camp outside of her range, how are you hitting her? We don't just spam laggy moves and allow you to run inside and punish. A smart Zelda would know they have to stick with her faster attacks in order to not be caught in a lag situation.

That's why I mention 'If he gets a lead'. Then you have no choice but to approach him. And also why I mentioned his speed, You wont use your laghy attacks but he can still punish you.

Also, your last post before I commented simply stated that we Zeldas exaggerate our advantage but you offered no evidence as to your counterpoint. Your reply to my purposefully exaggerated post spoke of how fast he runs and extending my hurt box when I dtilt. If you sit outside dtilt range, that's great, but I am not going to be spamming the move hoping you run into it. You still have yet to offer any real evidence that our perspective is incorrect.

Sonic can fox trot, skid stop and pivot into a forward smash btw.

Dtilt > Sonic
Range > Sonic
Priority > Sonic

Then show me lots of vids of good Sonics being walled by Zeldas.
Dtilt owning Sonic's approach etc, etc then.

Lastly, you should use your posts more to help discussion instead of trying to discredit me. Besides, what kind of insult is "fanboy" anyway? Serious loss of man points there.

I was addressing you points, so I can't address them? So I can sterotype you then? Okay.

 

[Bandit]

I would continue this argument, but it is just impossible. You attempt to talk down to me with misspelled words and poor grammar, and I try to make you say something credible. In the end, there are no videos to support either of our arguments (and I checked both boards... I don't recognize anyone listed on Sonic's video thread and we don't have any Sonic videos in ours).

I'll stick with 60-40 Zelda. At worst, I switch to Sheik if you are being pesky. This is not a problem match-up; it is just an annoying one for us.

 

[Chis]

I would continue this argument, but it is just impossible. You attempt to talk down to me with misspelled words and poor grammar, and I try to make you say something credible. In the end, there are no videos to support either of our arguments (and I checked both boards... I don't recognize anyone listed on Sonic's (it's Sonicvideo thread and we don't have any Sonic videos in ours).

Same, I'm not going to waste my time on people who judge the content of ones post on grammar. Sad really. Put it as 95:05 Zelda, I don't care. I wanted a Zelda to have an idea in a match but screw that now

 

[MalcolmM]

Red bandit i played u this weekend with sonic...or was it ike?

and there is one video of sonic vs zelda...but its rather one sided.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT25Z5dSl-Q

as u can clearly c in the video...it doesnt matter what attack u use...its getting punished. wether or not u believe this kid has any idea how 2 play zelda...u can clearly c that the moves are being punished and that wouldnt change regardless of his skill level. just by being good with zelda u dont get frames of lag off of ur moves lol.

but write it down as u wish. sonic matchup discussions usually end with lololitssoniclolol.

 

[-Mars-]

Red bandit i played u this weekend with sonic...or was it ike?

and there is one video of sonic vs zelda...but its rather one sided.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT25Z5dSl-Q

as u can clearly c in the video...it doesnt matter what attack u use...its getting punished. wether or not u believe this kid has any idea how 2 play zelda...u can clearly c that the moves are being punished and that wouldnt change regardless of his skill level. just by being good with zelda u dont get frames of lag off of ur moves lol.

but write it down as u wish. sonic matchup discussions usually end with lololitssoniclolol.

No.....simply no. Please never bring a video with that bad quality of a player as an example. He's using Naryus for one thing like an idiot among various other things. I'll write up something on the Sonic-Zelda matchup later today because it is really irritating how the players of one of the worst characters in the game can't accept that he's going to have a lot of bad matchups. We're not even putting this at 7-3 or something radical....it's simply an advantage for us because of our superior moveset......i'll discuss that later today.

 

[Bandit]

Malcolm, you only played me with Ike to which I told you was not good for Zelda and that I would normally use Sheik in that case, but I like the challenge in friendlies.

 

[MalcolmM]

ummm i would bring a vid of u against a good sonic but uhhh well...u dont have any.

regardless of u having none tho...or playing any u still feel you are quite capable of writing a matchup discussion.

I just showed the video to show u that "the fast moves" that have been written about over and over again in the dicussion...are all punishable. that and someone wrote there are no sonic vs zelda vids.

I dont even believe the matchup is in sonics favor....but with that in mind i also dont believe its in zeldas favor. 50:50 is where i would put it but once again lolololitssoniclololol will end up winning yet another matchup discussion.

 

[ShadowLink84]

No.....simply no. Please never bring a video with that bad quality of a player as an example. He's using Naryus for one thing like an idiot among various other things. I'll write up something on the Sonic-Zelda matchup later today because it is really irritating how the players of one of the worst characters in the game can't accept that he's going to have a lot of bad matchups.

Oh, so you are magically endowed with knowledge greater than someone who mains Sonic?
you practically said ""lol they disagree even though its sonic." Big deal, its sonic, let alone he is hardly among the worst characters in the game.
Every matchup is analyzed as is, the characters tier placement does not automatically mean another character gets an advantage.
Which it sounds lkek from what you posted.

And we should get angry if we feel you got something wrong, and I find it silly that you are getting irritated when its brought up. If what is being said by the sonic mains is so bad, then counter it, and prove it wrong.

We're not even putting this at 7-3 or something radical....

Don't care.
Why does tihs remind me of a tierlist discussion?
why are you defensive?
What is being argued is for the information being brought be taken, analyzed, and see if it changes the matchup.

it's simply an advantage for us because of our superior moveset......i'll discuss that later today.

Thats not good reasoning.
that's saying, I have a better Fair than you do so I win!
No, just...no.

seriously look at Falcon, good moveset but, well you see what happens.

What about the strategies and capabilities of that character?
What does Zelda use against Sonic in the matchup?

how does she counter his capabilities?
If Sonic stays outside her Fsmash range, what can she do to force him closer?
How does she deal with his incredible mobility?

If sonic is beginning an approach, are her safest moves completely safe? if so, why?

If you meant that, Zelda's capabilities in the matchup against Sonic give her the advantage, thats understandable, and I would like to hear more about it.

IMO the matchup is 50-50 to 60-40.
I give such a large range primarily because my matchup experience is little (so I am inclined to think worse of the matchup).

However, if Sonic is capable of punishing everything that Zelda has, then it should not be ignored.

For example, Sonic can cover 1/4th the distance of FD in around 15 frames or so.
what moves does options does Zelda have to deal with Sonic? If sonic is approaching and changes options in mod approach, can Zelda safely deal with the change?
Is she safe? What risks are involved.
etc etc.

 

[Rykoshet]

SL I need you to text me again I lost your number when my phone broke

 

[RoyalBlood]

^Idiot ^_^

Now onto Mr. SL

Moveset means more than 1+ move so your example is void

Captain Falcon has moves that lag a lot, just some, they lack priority and also have bad range (just some again) so I fail to see how you consider that a good moveset

Oh wait, you play Sonic lawl

^That's how a lot of Sonic mains post in the sense of misinformation

As you said Marsulas didn't know Sonic then I could say you're ignorant on Zelda.

^OMG If you didn't please forgive me ^_^;; if you did then >:l

See? You'll just continue the argument forever

AND ALSO NOTE THAT I'M NOT GIVING ANY NUMBER

 

[Villi]

I play the arguably the best Sonic in Norcal semi regularly (aptly named Sonik xD) and while I can't be arsed to argue when no one believes anything I say anyway, I can try getting videos from our next smashfest. I think the match is in Sonic's favor, slightly -- he has good juggle pressure and speed that both makes him difficult to react to and allows him to do silly things like hit you between mistimed dtilts.

 

[RoyalBlood]

Highest Level of play please

HIGHEST LEVEL

My hypocrisy is too good ^_^

 

[Villi]

Oh yeah, I forgot. Well, have fun theory crafting a better Zelda than can actually exist.

 

[RoyalBlood]

Awww no need to get angry

If it's no true then you're just reforcing the statement ^_^

Anyway, (I take it back, I won't be part of this ) seems nice considering baits & speed VS range and priority

Now to account aerial battle, it seems Sonic air speed is worse than Zelda's but does Sonic likes the air?

Is Sonic's ground game on par or better with Zelda's? If so, why?

Thanks (>^_^)>

 

[NinjaLink]

Oh yeah, I forgot. Well, have fun theory crafting a better Zelda than can actually exist.

what u mean by this ? T_T


Shall i fight Malcolm then?

 

[GodAtHand]

Everyone is just shouting the same crap that has already been said a few pages ago...

My theory:
Sonic CAN'T do damage without getting very close to Zelda. Being in mid to close range with Zelda leads to massive damage and eventually death... Sure he is fast but with that theory he would have an advantage against every slower character including D3 and Snake etc, when he doesn't. With Zelda being able to kill him far far sooner than he can kill her I believe that is what gives her the tipped scale in her advantage.

I still think 60:40 Zelda, but Sonic does put up a fight and it is a different sort of fight than most Zelda's will be used to, which is why I think some people think it is an advantage for Sonic. Because they don't know how to deal with him yet because he is such a confusing character.

If any Sonic's are near Mass you should go to Mass Madness and maybe I will be able to convince you that it is a Zelda advantage, But I am of course open to convincing myself.


OKAY!? continue, but keep it clean.

 

[Steeler]

just searching through matchup threads looking for a good analysis template (seems like everyone just quotes what people have said without organizing it) but i feel like commenting on this matchup.

sonic can punish and bait stuff like zelda smashes with that incredible speed of his.

din's fire is not safe and can be punished.

sonic outside of zelda fsmash range yet close enough to make din's fire really risky is a huge problem for zelda, imo.

zelda has good KO power, sonic does not.

sonic has a difficult to gimp recovery, zelda's can be punished, if not gimped.

this seems pretty even to me. maybe slight 55/45 sonic because of the fact that zelda has pretty **** near 0 options when sonic is slightly outside fsmash range (correct me if i'm wrong) because din's fire is risky and sonic can effectively punish most of what zelda calls an "approach". sonic might try to punish something and get a fsmash in the face but for the most part, this seems like a very cat-and-mouse kind of matchup. it's about who does the mindgames better: sonic baiting the laggy attacks and then rushing in? or zelda predicting something and punishing with a damaging smash attack or good kill move?

but i don't play either character so i may be wrong. :D

also

GOGO SONIC TRAINER ALLIANCE

 

[Villi]

what u mean by this ? T_T


Shall i fight Malcolm then?

I mean that a good amount of the time, Zelda boards just make **** up.

Edit: And, yus, I wanna see EC Sonic vs your Zelda.

 

[Kataefi]

Just ignore din's ^^ it's rarely ever used unless in a safe situation. If someone's just outside my range, I would personally shuffle about the stage with jumps until I get in my range. Her approaches are bad if she's approaching someone's shield directly - if she approaches up to a point where she outspaces them she does slightly better.

 

[GodAtHand]

If someone is just outside of Fsmash range I would just stutterstep a forward smash. Thats what it is called right? Stutterstep? I could be wrong about that name >.<

Edit: And at that range Sonic can't do anything either, he has less range than Zelda...

 

[Steeler]

well yes, but that's why it's neutral.

 

[goodkid]

I think this match is in Sonic's favor. Sonic can pressure Zelda soo much while she can't do anything to him. He is too fast for Zelda's moves & startup lag. I haven't played any sonics in person, so that may be the reason why I'm not doing well, but Zelda has no pressure vs. Sonic. That is the main reason why its in Sonic's favor.

 

[fromundaman]

Yeah, but according to the Sonic boards, Sonic can close the gap fast enough to capitalize on your ending lag (I'm just jumping in since you seem to have misunderstood what they said. I don't know jack**** about this matchup...).

 

[MalcolmM]

what u mean by this ? T_T


Shall i fight Malcolm then?

ugh...every sonic matchup will be based off of this then. sonic vs diddy rob zelda shiek lucario snake and any1 else u decide to use against me. im tired of talking about the highest levels of play...since its just words to alot of ppl. im down to let the theorybrawlers give zelda the advantadge. power to them. they arent beating me tho...thats 4 sure.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

ick... this has degraded into disgusting ignorance.

I'm done with this matchup... call me when we move on. the Hubris of the sonic mains is rather insulting... give zelda nothing but give sonic every benifit of the doubt.

there's a reason you're so low on the teir list and you have very little which frightens zelda. it's not a bad matchup by any means, but it's certainly not sonic's advantage.

but I don't see why I bother posting anything because of course anything contrary to what the sonic mains want to see will get ignored.

I thought the pit mains that came in here were bad, and the ness mains on their board... but this takes charcter loyalty/blindness to horrifyingly high levels.

 

[ShadowLink84]

SL I need you to text me again I lost your number when my phone broke

XD how did it break dude?

 

[-Mars-]

ummm i would bring a vid of u against a good sonic but uhhh well...u dont have any.

regardless of u having none tho...or playing any u still feel you are quite capable of writing a matchup discussion.

I just showed the video to show u that "the fast moves" that have been written about over and over again in the dicussion...are all punishable. that and someone wrote there are no sonic vs zelda vids.

I dont even believe the matchup is in sonics favor....but with that in mind i also dont believe its in zeldas favor. 50:50 is where i would put it but once again lolololitssoniclololol will end up winning yet another matchup discussion.

I would bring up a video of you playing a good Zelda but uhhh well....u don't have any.

regardless of u having none tho...or playing any u still feel you are quite capable of writing a matchup discussion.

That video showed no ways of Zelda properly using dtilts, dsmashes, fsmashes, and even her very low cooldown jab to any sort of effectiveness because frankly the Zelda player was awful. I'm pretty sue I could find a video of a good Zelda destroying a crappy Sonic player and then state how safe all of her options are against Sonic.......but what would that prove?

Oh and yes I haven't seen a top line Sonic in person as of yet. I've played Kai online and was impressed, but obviously that isn't much of a factor into my decision.

I heard X is a really good Sonic and I know he lives in my state. I'll try to get some matches in with him at an upcoming tournament in March if he shows up.

Oh, so you are magically endowed with knowledge greater than someone who mains Sonic?
you practically said ""lol they disagree even though its sonic." Big deal, its sonic, let alone he is hardly among the worst characters in the game.
Every matchup is analyzed as is, the characters tier placement does not automatically mean another character gets an advantage.
Which it sounds lkek from what you posted.

And we should get angry if we feel you got something wrong, and I find it silly that you are getting irritated when its brought up. If what is being said by the sonic mains is so bad, then counter it, and prove it wrong.

Don't care.
Why does tihs remind me of a tierlist discussion?
why are you defensive?
What is being argued is for the information being brought be taken, analyzed, and see if it changes the matchup.



Thats not good reasoning.
that's saying, I have a better Fair than you do so I win!
No, just...no.

seriously look at Falcon, good moveset but, well you see what happens.

What about the strategies and capabilities of that character?
What does Zelda use against Sonic in the matchup?

how does she counter his capabilities?
If Sonic stays outside her Fsmash range, what can she do to force him closer?
How does she deal with his incredible mobility?

If sonic is beginning an approach, are her safest moves completely safe? if so, why?

If you meant that, Zelda's capabilities in the matchup against Sonic give her the advantage, thats understandable, and I would like to hear more about it.

IMO the matchup is 50-50 to 60-40.
I give such a large range primarily because my matchup experience is little (so I am inclined to think worse of the matchup).

However, if Sonic is capable of punishing everything that Zelda has, then it should not be ignored.

For example, Sonic can cover 1/4th the distance of FD in around 15 frames or so.
what moves does options does Zelda have to deal with Sonic? If sonic is approaching and changes options in mod approach, can Zelda safely deal with the change?
Is she safe? What risks are involved.
etc etc.

I don't need to play a character to understand what the character is capable of, this is one of the more common misconceptions seen on Smashboards daily.

I am aware that the characters tier placement has nothing to do with a matchup discussion that is obvious and nothing that I said implied that. I am just tired of all the Sonic propaganda spread around SWF and when anyone ever says a negative thing about Sonic(whether it be a well respected player or a silly theory crafter like me)......the Sonic mains come in packs and complain about no one taking Sonic or his capabilities seriously, which is entirely not true.

Movesets do matter. the more options you are allowed with your characters moveset....the better your character is it's as simple as that. Captain Falcon has an awful moveset and a lot of his game is limited to a couple of options such as his jabs and his nair or bair............so it makes him become rather limited as a character. Meta and Snake have far superior movesets to Zelda. Of course we look at other aspects of the matchup(such as character weight, recovery, KO power) but eventually it boils down to their superior movesets and the greater number of options they have against Zelda.

This is how I view Sonic, i'm not one of the people that believe Sonic is a crapload of a character and that we should just always write him off.......but he has to work his *** off for every amount of damage he gets in a lot of matchups.

Sonic is obviously fast and can cancel Spindashes and a bunch of other crazy s***, but his moveset is far slower than Zelda's. His horizontal aerial movement speed is slow as well and combining that with our threatening usmash and it limits his approaches to grounded ones. I am aware that the ground is where the majority of Sonics approaches will come from..........but thats where Zelda excels.

Her priority doesn't come from her smashes alone. Jab and dtilt are really good for spacing without the fear of being punished because of their extremely low cooldown. Now obviously I can't just throw these moves out whenever I feel like it because of Sonics speed. Jab to a spotdodge or dtilt to a spotdodge, I could quickly put up a shield, I could turnaround bair, I could SH nair......she has a lot of options for putting up a successful wall that doesn't require a lot of risks with her fsmash, dsmash, and usmash. Nair I see as being very good in this matchup as well becuase the AC ability of the move enables numerous options before I hit the ground and when I hit the ground(and yes I am aware that Sonic is fantastic at punishing landing lag).

Lol i'm a really slow typer so I look forward to having something to respond to so I don't use up eevrything right now. I do have some more on the matchup though.

I mean that a good amount of the time, Zelda boards just make **** up.

Edit: And, yus, I wanna see EC Sonic vs your Zelda.

Please don't turn into some elitist, f***head, dips***....because thats really what you've been sounding like lately.

 

[MalcolmM]

did u miss NL come here and post? theres my good zelda practice. on top of that ive played against nagace in tournament in which in the midst of getting wrecked he switched to shiek because he said his zelda couldnt do anything... and ive played naks as well. ive played the matchup. so there u go. now u should feel stupid for writing something that u have no idea about.

 

[-Mars-]

did u miss NL come here and post? theres my good zelda practice. on top of that ive played against nagace in tournament in which in the midst of getting wrecked he switched to shiek because he said his zelda couldnt do anything... and ive played naks as well. ive played the matchup. so there u go. now u should feel stupid for writing something that u have no idea about.

Omg now I feel really stupid, malcolm made me look like an idiot! I understand you are a very good player and you've beaten Bums DK, various MK's, and do very well for yourself in tournament. Even though you personally and other people are capable of beating top MK players.......does that mean Sonic goes even or has an advantage on MK? No. You completely chose to ignore the rest of my post which gave a sample size of how Zelda can deal with Sonic. Of course the good Sonic players can beat Zelda players easily......but she still beats Sonic.

I've never heard of nagace, if he's good then props to you. I would love to see videos of you going even with NinjaLink and seeing how NinjaLink approaches the matchup because I think there's a certain way you have to play Sonic......and NinjaLink uses a lot of smashes.