Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

[hippiedude92]

Clank and clash mean the same right? >_> But yes yes. Nair has weird godsend priority lol. Literally, if one or another approachs, they're gonna take a beating. Zelda OBVIOUSLY ***** SH approachs, but if she approachs, she doesnt have completely reliable approachs cept for lighting dynamic kicks lol.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Um, gee, why would a feint be punished when Sonic is OUTSIDE of Zelda's range?
Seriously, if I cancel my side B just in front of your fsmash range and you don't do anytihng, how will you punish me?
At worst, we are back to neutral where I am camping outside your range.

Zelda cannot punish Sonic, if Sonic hasn't acted yet, he acts on Zelda's reaction and always has his options open even when he is beginning his offense.

Edit: Wow im late @_@ and off topic @_@

if you keep feinting, you'll never acheive anything. you have to try to get close at some point, and if it fails, you take damage. simple.




now as for luigi. I don't like luigi. that nair makes him so **** hard to combo that I can't use sheik for reliable damage and I can't move in for close attacks with zelda.

Also, BTW, luigi's Down+B goes through Din's AND Fsmash. that caused a LOT of problems for me. Learn to use Dtilt against it instead, that'll stop him cold right in your Fsmash range, and I don't think he can do anything against a buffered Fsmash in that situation.

he's got zelda in the palms of his hands when they are both airborne. So, unless you have clear control, make your primary goal getting out of the sky when you find yourself off the ground.

Fsamsh kills way early and has good enough range/speed to punish us... be very afraid of fresh Fsamshes from luigi, but remember you CAN punish them if they get dodged or blocked.

Fireballs aren't much of a concern, but they make approaching less than fun if he gets a lead and is camping in a range where he can punish Din's with Down+B.... which is a big problem because it sends us airborne.

He's got a lot of recovery options, but Din's beats green missile, dair beats Luigi Cyclone and weegee's up+B is easily edgehogged and has a lot of landing lag which is great to punish. Even so, if he's not in a bad position, he normally doesn't have to show you his hand early. Dsmash will put him in a bad position, but otherwise he shouldn't have trouble recovering.

He can **** our farore's landing lag with his shoryuken or Fsmash and he can kill surpringly early with nair. otherwise we have better killing options, but are also easier to kill on the whole.

Our Usmash kills a lot of his favourite approaches, but, really I think that, if a luigi is used to fighting zelda, he can cause her all sorts of headaches.

this is one of the few charcters my roommate can actually beat my zelda from time to time by using. It can't be an awful matchup for luigi.

I'd go with about even for now, but I wanna see some other opinions.

 

[Bandit]

I am not that experienced in the match-up, but from what I have played, it is a pure spacing match-up. Zelda has utilize her range and stay on the ground or under Luigi if in the air.

I'd initially say this is pretty even though my bias makes me lean slightly Zelda. If she can stay grounded, she should win this match-up more than not IMO.

 

[Villi]

be very afraid of fresh Fsamshes from luigi, but remember you CAN punish them if they get dodged or blocked.

Is this true for his up angled fsmash? IIRC, it has insane IASA frames.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Is this true for his up angled fsmash? IIRC, it has insane IASA frames.

OoS Usmash and Spotdodge->Dsmash are such insanely reliable punishers though....

 

[DMG]

Actually IIRC Zelda gets invincibility from the 1st-4th frames, not from the 4th-11th frames.

 

[Brinzy]

Are you talking about Nayru's? It's 4 - 11. The first three frames = vulnerable and the move has not come out yet.

 

[hippiedude92]

if you keep feinting, you'll never acheive anything. you have to try to get close at some point, and if it fails, you take damage. simple.




now as for luigi. I don't like luigi. that nair makes him so **** hard to combo that I can't use sheik for reliable damage and I can't move in for close attacks with zelda.

Also, BTW, luigi's Down+B goes through Din's AND Fsmash. that caused a LOT of problems for me. Learn to use Dtilt against it instead, that'll stop him cold right in your Fsmash range, and I don't think he can do anything against a buffered Fsmash in that situation.

he's got zelda in the palms of his hands when they are both airborne. So, unless you have clear control, make your primary goal getting out of the sky when you find yourself off the ground.



Fsamsh kills way early and has good enough range/speed to punish us... be very afraid of fresh Fsamshes from luigi, but remember you CAN punish them if they get dodged or blocked.



Fireballs aren't much of a concern, but they make approaching less than fun if he gets a lead and is camping in a range where he can punish Din's with Down+B.... which is a big problem because it sends us airborne.



He's got a lot of recovery options, but Din's beats green missile, dair beats Luigi Cyclone and weegee's up+B is easily edgehogged and has a lot of landing lag which is great to punish. Even so, if he's not in a bad position, he normally doesn't have to show you his hand early. Dsmash will put him in a bad position, but otherwise he shouldn't have trouble recovering.

Basically it's pretty even when it's offstage. Luigi gets ***** by ANYTHING (yes a din's fire will stop a misfire in it's tracks) Spike him when your above him. just use your regular ****** options offstage. Also goes for vice versa since zelda's recovery is crap as well. Luigi just has to Bair her off until she uses his second jump repeat, then edgehog. Or if shes in range, she can be stagespiked depending on certain stage. So it's pretty even here

He can **** our farore's landing lag with his shoryuken or Fsmash and he can kill surpringly early with nair. otherwise we have better killing options, but are also easier to kill on the whole.

Our Usmash kills a lot of his favourite approaches, but, really I think that, if a luigi is used to fighting zelda, he can cause her all sorts of headaches.

this is one of the few charcters my roommate can actually beat my zelda from time to time by using. It can't be an awful matchup for luigi.

I'd go with about even for now, but I wanna see some other opinions.

Basically Zelda has the ground game wrecking luigi with her tilts and smashs while, luigi will be ****** her in the air and both will be punishing each other's mistakes.

Fsmash kills Zelda earlier then her fsmash kills luigi. Luigi's fsmash kills at 74% (no di), and has IASA frames, so he can land another one if he wanted to or to "scare" you haha


His fireballs are just mainly for distraction/approaching. Techanically, it is a campfest because luigi "can't" be camped by Din's fire. Powershield/Nair/Tornado can take care of that.

Basically it's pretty even when it's offstage. Luigi gets ***** by ANYTHING (yes a din's fire will stop a misfire in it's tracks) Spike him when your above him. just use your regular ****** options offstage. Also goes for vice versa since zelda's recovery is crap as well. Luigi just has to Bair her off until she uses his second jump repeat, then edgehog. Or if shes in range, she can be stagespiked depending on certain stage. So it's pretty even here

I am not that experienced in the match-up, but from what I have played, it is a pure spacing match-up. Zelda has utilize her range and stay on the ground or under Luigi if in the air.

I'd initially say this is pretty even though my bias makes me lean slightly Zelda. If she can stay grounded, she should win this match-up more than not IMO.

Spacing/Campfest, is basically where its at. 50-50 IMO sounds right. But I'm okay if you go with 55:45 in zelda's meh lol.

Is this true for his up angled fsmash? IIRC, it has insane IASA frames.

Yes it does have IASA frames. It comes out at frame 12 about 4 frames faster then your Fsmash. Unless you space it correctly. Luigi's Fsmash kills around 74%.

OoS Usmash and Spotdodge->Dsmash are such insanely reliable punishers though....

Are you talking about Nayru's? It's 4 - 11. The first three frames = vulnerable and the move has not come out yet.

That first 3 frames, a rising Nair will defeat since it comes out at frame 3. Though realistically saying, no human can do it input it at the very same time since it's inhuman lol. But this just mere facts with evidence.

Edit: im pretty sure luigi can DI out of the upsmash and fsmash multihit moves. i think?

 

[Villi]

It generally takes 5 frames for a character to go air born.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

meh I wouldn't say luigi is as bad for zelda when she's off stage as vice versa.

he can certainly punish her landing, but he doesn't really scare me that he's going to prevent me from coming back. even jigglypuff doesn't have the airspeed to chase me out to gimp farore's if I'm already out there

 

[ShadowLink84]

if you keep feinting, you'll never acheive anything. you have to try to get close at some point, and if it fails, you take damage. simple.

Correct, I do not achieve anything but neither do you.
Why are you assuming Sonic MUST approach Zelda when he is in such a position?
If we are in a neutral position, sonic can contiously cancel and feint all day without risk. Even if you do not react to his feints as he would want, he still is retaining his options.

let us say Sonic mUST approach, like Zelda is ahead by percent. YYes Sonic will approach, but he won't ake a risk that has a high chance of failing. That is self destructive.
Nor is Zelda exactly going to stand there and watch him feint all day, she will react because she wants to wall Sonic off to hinder, and cut off his approaches.
So she WILL be doing something and Sonic WILL react to it while retaining his options.


Luigi is a jerk. Period. >_>
Friggin shoryuken. @_@

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Correct, I do not achieve anything but neither do you.
Why are you assuming Sonic MUST approach Zelda when he is in such a position?
If we are in a neutral position, sonic can contiously cancel and feint all day without risk. Even if you do not react to his feints as he would want, he still is retaining his options.

let us say Sonic mUST approach, like Zelda is ahead by percent. YYes Sonic will approach, but he won't ake a risk that has a high chance of failing. That is self destructive.
Nor is Zelda exactly going to stand there and watch him feint all day, she will react because she wants to wall Sonic off to hinder, and cut off his approaches.
So she WILL be doing something and Sonic WILL react to it while retaining his options.

fine... but that's my point. one of them HAS to make a move. and sonic's moves are more easily countered by zelda than vice versa... at least, zelda's are far more damaging... which means it's easier for her to get the lead... which means it's easier for her to force sonic to approach.

Luigi is a jerk. Period. >_>
Friggin shoryuken. @_@

I don't really get hit by that much... zelda's not one to let people close.... but it is frustrating when it does hit you

 

[MrEh]

It generally takes 5 frames for a character to go air born.

No, 7 is about average.

5 is like, Sheik speed.

 

[Villi]

Weird, it's Zelda speed, too.

 

[MrEh]

Weird, it's Zelda speed, too.

*shrugs*

Maybe Zelda just has a funny jump. ^^

 

[Villi]

*shrugs*

Maybe Zelda just has a funny jump. ^^

Peach also has a 5 frame jump, and Falco a 6 as far as I've checked. Sheik's is 4 frames... What characters are you basing 7 frames on? Bowser?

 

[MrEh]

What characters are you basing 7 frames on? Bowser?

Definately not Bowser. He doesn't have a 7 frame jump. ^^

Wait, I thought Shiek had a 5 frame jump. Hmm.


Anyway, when I say 7 frames, that's a rough average of the entire cast. At least from memory. I usually consider 4-5 frames to be a fast jump, 6-7 to be average, and anything higher then that to be slow.

 

[Villi]

Definately not Bowser. He doesn't have a 7 frame jump. ^^

Wait, I thought Shiek had a 5 frame jump. Hmm.


Anyway, when I say 7 frames, that's a rough average of the entire cast. At least from memory. I usually consider 4-5 frames to be a fast jump, 6-7 to be average, and anything higher then that to be slow.

:O Where'd you get that data? Sheik is airborn on frame 5 and can begin any aerial on that frame. Ah I might be confused exactly if that makes it a 4 frame jump or 5 frame. The start up is 4 frames.

 

[MrEh]

:O Where'd you get that data?

I did a lot of grab release testing months ago. Nothing in depth, but I did it for almost every character in the game. (the only characters I really went in depth with are Bowser and Jiggs)

From my memory, most of the cast had a 6-7 frame jump. It was important for me to figure this out, since I was testing jump releases. (which I hate btw)

Ah I might be confused exactly if that makes it a 4 frame jump or 5 frame. The start up is 4 frames.

When I say that Sheik has a 5 frame jump, I mean she's airborne on frame 5. Sorry if my wording was funny.

 

[GreyFox86]

How are you guys finding out about the frames in the jumps?

Is there a list or are you doing it from Training Mode?

 

[Villi]

When I say that Sheik has a 5 frame jump, I mean she's airborne on frame 5. Sorry if my wording was funny.

Nah, I just needed clarification. :3

 

[MrEh]

Is there a list or are you doing it from Training Mode?

Some people have already tested specific character's jumps. (like Sheiks)

In my case, I recorded myself in training room and watched the video frame by frame. This was a long time ago though, and I never bothered double checking everything. No one really cares about jumps after all. ^^

 

[Villi]

No one really cares about jumps after all. ^^

So Zelda has a 6 frame jump and Luigi's is like 23.

 

[MrEh]

So Zelda has a 6 frame jump and Luigi's is like 23.

I lol'ed. ^^


You know, that reminds me. I remember that Zelda grabs high, meaning that she can force a lot of characters to jump release. I can do grab release testing if you guys really wanted me to.

 

[Kataefi]

YES PLEEEEEASE!!! I would gladly request ^^

We're going through a 'phase' of growth at the moment, and any little discovery could be good!

 

[MrEh]

YES PLEEEEEASE!!! I would gladly request ^^

We're going through a 'phase' of growth at the moment, and any little discovery could be good!

Can do.

I'll have the testing up as soon as I get to it.

 

[hippiedude92]

I lol'ed. ^^


You know, that reminds me. I remember that Zelda grabs high, meaning that she can force a lot of characters to jump release. I can do grab release testing if you guys really wanted me to.

Learn how to share the goodness. Share with marios and luigis plz? well espically in luigi's since our meta-game is moving at the pace of a snail LOL.


edit btw you guys have LOL'ful pictures here. make it a good one for luigi plz.

 

[MrEh]

Learn how to share the goodness. Share with marios and luigis plz? well espically in luigi's since our meta-game is moving at the pace of a snail LOL.

Mario and Luigi grab low, so they can't force many characters (if at all) to jump release. ><

 

[ShadowLink84]

fine... but that's my point. one of them HAS to make a move. and sonic's moves are more easily countered by zelda than vice versa... at least, zelda's are far more damaging... which means it's easier for her to get the lead... which means it's easier for her to force sonic to approach.

Not really, when Sonic manages to successfully attack his opponent, he can rack up more damage than Zelda potentially, especially considering his follow ups afterwards.

Zelda won't rack up as much damage as Sonic, its the fact that she doesn't need to, that she can kill more easily.

Nor are Sonic's moves easily countered, then it falls downt o, if you o this I do this which really means little.

I don't really get hit by that much... zelda's not one to let people close.... but it is frustrating when it does hit you

Exactly, when it hits you go, oh how did that happen!?

 

[goodkid]

these match-ups are moving by pretty fast, maybe we should slow down a liitle. I just played a good sonic the other day online, im pretty sure this match is 50:50. If u have not played a dececnt sonic online yet, then you have no clue what your discussing. Sonic doesnt have theory, almost all play different. When he spindash approaches, a shorthopped nayru will beat it out. Dont even think about shieldgrabbing sonic cause you`ll eat an f-smash or tilt. Sonic's like to really pressure shields, and zelda's not safe for too long, cause his aerials will eat it up. Use teleport in this matcup to confuse sonic players. When they start running towards me, I like do teleport right behind them, which gives me an edge most of the time, wish i could write more, maybe later, but this thread is moving way too fast. most matchups threads last about a week. How long was Sonic, like 3 days?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I just played a good sonic the other day online, im pretty sure this match is 50:50. If u have not played a dececnt sonic online yet, then you have no clue what your discussing.

xcuse me?

online?

 

[GodAtHand]

Sonic is fast and Zelda relies on precision to be at her best. If you are playing online you CANNOT be at your best as a Zelda main. It may effect other characters as well of course, but Zelda is severely damaged online.

 

[Villi]

Iunno, I think Zelda is more like Ike online. Lots of high reward things you can do that can be difficult to react to if you play your cards right.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

yeah Zeldas more like Ike online in quite a few ways. her jab becomes a wall practically online

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Because a lot of Zelda's defensive game is so hard to avoid, that becomes even harder to avoid online sometimes.... but her offensive game, which involves precision, just dies.

 

[hippiedude92]

So like luigi discussion died for sonic...? lol? Unless you wanna agree that my verdict is 50-50... then you can put it up along a silly pic of luigi on front page... (eager to see).. Unless.. you want it 55:45 in zeldas go right ahead lol..

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Despite being pretty familiar with this matchup, I don't really know what to say for it. Both sides really DO have stuff on their foe. I think most of us have yet to see what exactly could become of the matchup when both sides are perfectly prepped against each other. For this reason, I would not put the matchup any more than 55:45 in either direction for now.

 

[-Mars-]

Dunno, over the past couple months i've gone from thinking Zelda had a decent-sized advantage on Weegee....to thinking that it might be in his favor.

I think maybe the matchup would change drastically depending upon the stage choice. I don't know what stages Luigi does particularly well on, but I could maybe see him taking Zelda to Halberd?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Dunno, over the past couple months i've gone from thinking Zelda had a decent-sized advantage on Weegee....to thinking that it might be in his favor.

I think maybe the matchup would change drastically depending upon the stage choice. I don't know what stages Luigi does particularly well on, but I could maybe see him taking Zelda to Halberd?

luigi does his best if he can punish Zelda's landing lag after Farore's.

if you pick stages with permiable floors, then you have a greater chance of forcing zelda to land on the stage since it's harder for her to sweetspot the ledge.

Examples of these stages are:
Halberd, Delfino Plaza, Brinstar, Lylat Cruise (the sage tilting and thin ledges is just about as bad really), Frigate Orpheon (only the one side of the first form)

now on all of these stages, zelda has SOMETHING going for her.

• on halberd, it's hard to approach her if she sits in the middle of the stage, she has no problem when the scaffolding lands and she can get relatively early star KOs here.
  
• on delfino, she has no problems when the stage lands, and can spike hard through water.
  
• on brinstar, she can use the tendons much like she would mansion's pillars and the uneven terain gives a few of her attacks higher utility. Dtilt, fsmash and usmash, for example, become easier to connect with.
  
• on lylat cruise, she can poke through those platforms pretty bad.
  
• on frigate, it's hard to get away from her to reset spacing... but, then again, it's hard for her to get far enough away to din's camp. and the second form of the stage poses no problems for her, but makes it hard for you to approach her in the centre.

of all those stages, I'd guve luigi an advantage, but I'd LEAST like to face him on Lylat cruse. I'd also consider, possibly, jungle japes against her. IT's a bit hellish to try to approach her on the stage, but if you find a reliable way through her, or have a damage advantage on her, it's not a good stage for her. it kills her vertical KO ability and she just can't escape the water to save her life.

just suggestions.

 

[Kataefi]

I agree! I think this match is heavily based on the stage.

I, however, LOVE Lylat. It's a personal counterpick for me now on a lot of characters. It messes up with a lot of characters' spacing, autocancels, camping, recoveries etc... she's floaty enough to never really need to grab that moving ledge, but it's always there just in case, and she can land on the bottom part of the stage or on a platform to avoid his FSmash. Her jab and FSmash work unbelievably well if you camp on the downward slant and they approach. Sometimes you can even sneak in USmashes as they approach via SHs.

LKs are also easier to land. Fairs OoS can be landed on a lot of characters if she's on a slope tiltiing downwards. I just don't see what's so bad about the stage in general :/