Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

[RoyalBlood]

Updated, you know what to do people

 

[GreyFox86]

All I can say is beat Squirtle and your good to go

My friend plays PT and I have trouble with just Squirtle. Ivysaur is a maybe and Charizard is just a big target.

Much like Ike, Charizard carry's alot of power but unlike Ike, he can air glide and his run speed is pretty good.

But like I said before Squirtle has always been annoying to kill cause of his speed and size. No easy LKs.

 

[Tien2500]

I main PT and second Zelda so I can probably be of some use here.

Squirtle- Usmash shuts down a lot of squirtle's approach options, as he'll usually approach through the air. This will force Squirtle to mainly approach my ground. His jab comes out in either one or two frames and his ftilt isn't much slower. Zelda outranges all of these moves though so she has a pretty strong advantage on the ground.

Squirtle will probably try to get Zelda into the air (probably using throws to set this up) and in the air he dominates Zelda. He's a small target to lightning kick and his aerials all come out very quickly and with fairly good priority. If Squirtle gets Zelda off the stage his air speed gets him in range to fair off the stage somewhat easily so getting gimped is a very real possibility.

Squirtle is light and can be KOed at early percentages. He shouldn't live past 100%. Squitle's Usmash is very powerful and can kill at low percentages. It can also be combined with Squirtles unique pivot animation to do some interesting things. (Look up hydroplaining and shellshifting for more info). Fsmash can KO at decent percentages but its a bit slow and laggy so you probably won't see it unless you leave Squirtle a really bit opening. Squirtle also has two throws that can kill you Dthrow will kill at about 120 depending on location and is probably Squirtle's most common kill move. Uthrow will kill at somewhere between 140 and 155. Fair can also kill if its fresh at around 120%.

Din's fire shouldn't be a big factor here. Squirtle is quick enough in the air that he can dodge it very well. If you use din's fire too close to him you'll likely get hit with an aerial. Another thing to be aware of is water gun. If Zelda is too close to the edge when using din's fire Squirtle can push her off the stage with water gun and she can't recover. Since PTs are rare many Zelda's don't expect this. So just be aware of this.

Overall I'd say this matchup goes 60:40 in Zelda's favor.

Ivysaur- Ivysaur's approach is also kind of limited here but he's a little better off than Squirtle. Fair and bair I believe outrange Zelda's Usmash is spaced correctly. Bair can be followed up by Utilt or possibly bullet seed. Ivysaur also may run at you with a tether grab which is something to be aware of.

At long range Ivy can be pelted with Din's fire. It does extra knockback on him so it can be very annoying. Razor leaf doesn't reach very far so expect Ivysaur to try and close the game.

At midrange the projectile game shifts into Ivy's favor. Razorleaf's timing is a bit odd and while it is reflectable it is slow which means a smart Ivy will be able to anticipate the reflection, dodge it, and hit you at the end.

At close range Ivy will likely try to hit you with bullet seed. This move is very quick (4 frams I think) and will pop you up into a barrage of seeds that will do around 25% damage if it hits. You can DI out of the initial hitbox though by DIing towards Ivy. The window for this is small though. I believe Ivy's Ftilt and jab may slightly outrange Zelda's but his ftilt can be outprioritized.

I think Ivy is better in the air. Bair is very quick and has good range. Fair has some start up but his powerful. His nair is similar to yours. His Uair is also very similar. It is slow but very powerful.

Ivysaur is average in weight but has a poor recovery. If you can get him off the stage with Dsmash and he has to recover from beneath he's in trouble. You can edgeguard him easily enough but if he's close he may razor leaf you off the stage, or go for a fair or Bair. If Ivy is recovering from above you can try to hit him with Din's fire. It does added knockback to him so you can KO him off the top with it if he's careless. If you can get Ivy into the air and hit him with an Uair it will KO him at ridiculously low perctentages due to his fire weakness. Less than 70%.

Ivy's main KO move is his Fsmash which is very powerful and has decent range. You're likely to get hit with this if you whiff a smash or tilt near him. He can also KO with Bthrow or Uthrow at higher percentages. Uair KOs at around 90 I believe. If he gets you off the stage he can try to hit you with a couple of Bairs to take you out of recovering range. Fair can KO at about 120%. If he hits you with Usmash I think he can kill you at 80-90% so be careful particularly when recovering with UpB.

Thats about it for this one I think. I'd say 55-45 Zelda but I could be wrong on this one.

Charizard- Rock smash can deal around 40% in one shot if it hits right. Flamethrower can also rack up damage and depending on the range you may or may not be able to reflect it properly. The main threat with Charizard though is his grab. His grab is incredibly fast and has great range with little lag. Expect to be grabbed any time a move is blocked. He has fairly powerful throws and he can grab release into a jab combo and possibly a Dtilt. (I'm not sure if this works on Zelda). His throws can also put you off the stage where he can finish you with Fair, bair, or Dair.

Charizard can be juggled fairly easily to to low air speed. At low percentages you can hit him with two Usmashes in a row and at higher percentages he'll have trouble landing safely. Also because of his size he's a good target for lighting kicks and Usmash and Fsmash can shieldstab easily. Charizard also has very poor aerial approach. And Zelda can to a degree stop his ground approach.

Din's fire is useful at a distance but be careful with it. Charizard is very fast on the ground (running speed is tied with Pikachu so he can close the gap quickly if you're careless.

Zelda may have an advantage in the air. Fair deals no knockback unless you've very close and his other aerials are powerful but slow. Charizard is very slow in the air though. Zelda's aerials have a much higher reward here than Charizards.

In terms of KO power charizard has you beat. Rocksmash will KO at around 100% fresh. Dthrow can KO at around 125% at an edge. Dtilt is very quick and can KO 110-120%. Uthrow can kill at around 150ish. Usmash at 115ish. Fsmash should kill under 80%. Possible as low as 65% depending on where you are and the size of a stage. But if you get hit with it you're usually dead. Charizard can be hard to KO because of his size. Keep in mind that his recovery move has super armor frames. He can also glide but I don't think that will be too big of a

As for a number. I don't know I'm thinking 55-45% Zelda but I feel like I may be being a bit biased towards PT throughout this whole thing. Hopefully this info has been somewhat helpful though and you can supplement it with your knowledge of Zelda. If anyone wants to have a few matches to hammer out the details that would be good .

 

[Steeler]

charizard's aerials aren't that slow.

Forward Air: 9
Back Air: 7
Down Air: 18
Up Air: 6
Neutral Air: 8

all three pokemon can edgeguard zelda effectively, charizard the best and ivysaur the least. squirtle's water gun is pretty lulzy, although a normal edgehog will usually do the job just as well.

i think squirtle does better than tien says, and ivysaur does worse. but that's just in my experience since my squirtle is the best of the three.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i say even w/ squirtle maybe slight advantage Zelda. squirtle can be hard to hit but his airgame is stopped by Zeldas Usmash on the ground. he also lacks reach in comparison to Zelda, but his attacks come out fast. can Zeldas Nair beat any of his aerials though? and is it possible to setup his Fsmash to use the SA frames in it like Warios on Zelda? i've never had too much trouble w/ squirtle.

Ivy can be annoying too get close too cause razor leaf is weird and not just reflect and keep moving so i think she wins the long range game by staing close enough to sideB us, but we can's dins back. although i do jump and Dinsing works if she sideBs near the same time. i think ground v ground Zelda wins a bit cause her Fsmash reachs farther than Ftilt and comes out faster than Ivys Fsmash. but his Bair against Zeldas ground attacks are a pain for me sometimes. Ivys bullet seed also has invincibility on frame 1-3. i think Ivy has it worse though cause Dsmash sends her at a bad angle for recovery leading to easier gimps for zelda to get on her.

Charizard i treat like Bowser w/ wings. and his aerials are surprisingly quick. i call them about even too. he has very good reach on alot of attacks, but zelda seems a bit faster. is it possible to LK charizard while in his flame breath like Bowser?

 

[Charizard92]

Charizard i treat like Bowser w/ wings. and his aerials are surprisingly quick. i call them about even too. he has very good reach on alot of attacks, but zelda seems a bit faster. is it possible to LK charizard while in his flame breath like Bowser?

OK, I want to get this into everybody's heads, Charizard is not a winged Bowser, he only looks like that due to his size (which is of course morphed in Brawl, a real Charizard is 5'7", the average Male American can beat that. I'm around that Height right now. Fox is taller than that) and the Flamethrower. I did testing, and Bowser's Fire breath goes a bit farther, yet Charizard's flamethrower lasts a bit longer. Charizard is incredibly Mobile, which is awkward if you never played Pokemon, as Charizard belongs to a group well known to be rocks when it comes to the agility test (In Pokemon, Charizard has a rather high speed stat, so in a way it makes sense, but then again in Pokemon Rock smash sucks, so Poke logic doesn't ALWAYS equal smash logic). Because Charizard is a huge target, Din's fire and lightning aerial attacks (or whatever the **** you call them) are rather easy to land, but don't expect to launch him with them, as Charizard is among the heaviest Characters in the game and the Heaviest Pokemon to date. If on ground, a shield will likely link to a grab, which, if facing Charizard, normally means you're in a world of pain. A grab can link to many things, including throw, a combo, Flamethrower, and sometimes a Rock smash can pop in. After around 20% damage, Characters typically start landing Prone through the throws, and ordinarily, Charizard doesn't have a chain grab, but teching out of it and that 7th fastest speed really kicks in. Yes, Charizard hates to be juggled, but he is really good at being the juggler. Here's my advice (as of right now), want to do your worst to charizard, then press Down B.

I'll say that it's leaning in Charizard's favor, but I don't think by that much, so like 55:45 Char's favor, but it's give or take like 10.

PS: Because PT has no/an awkward/a false Projectile, Naryu's love ain't gonna help you as much as it would help against Snake for example.

 

[Bandit]

Well, I think your love of Charizard is great, but he does not beat Zelda. If he tries to grab release jab combo, naryu's will beat it. If you fire breath, naryu's will get us out of it. Plus, Zelda can get out of fire breath and punish you for it during its cool down. Usmash destroys Charizard's glide attack (as it does for every glide attack).

He is able to get off stage and cause us havoc. Our Dair does not beat his Uair or UpB from what I've played (aka I don't know 100% certain).

Ivysaur hates Zelda because have fire elemental. While Dins can't be counted on, it out camps its projectile. Bullet seed you can DI out of and punish with a LK. Ivysaur is very prone to the Dsmash --> Edge guard. His upB will knock you off the ledge, but I have found, unless you are high percentages, it won't kill you. It won't grab the ledge, just like any other tether, if you are on it.

Squirtle seems to be one of the toughest matchups Zelda has to deal with. He is just really quick and able to punish missed attacks by Zelda. Nair can be key here as Usmash could be as well when used at the right times.

60:40 Zelda over PT as a whole.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Zelda's got the noticeable advantage against all of them really.

I'm sure I've posted stuff on the trainer boards so I'm not going to repost it until it becomes necisary but.

Squirtle:
I use sheik against him for tilt lock funness... but zelda does okay. Squirtle is uber light and doesn't have a great recovery. he's manueverable enough to get inside of us, but, really, he's not going to be able to kill us before we can kill him. he's airborne enough for us to try to trade LKs after he reaches about 50% damage... that'll kill. trading Ftilt, or Utilt with any of his approaches is worth it too... or just blocking them with well timed/spaces smashes. Down Smash will put squirle in a place where he's going to need to use waterfall... which we can spike. not like that's reliable but it's something. Anyway... we don't fatigue; we're heavier; we hit harder and, while we don't have the speed he does, it's not like it's hard to land attacks with zelda.

We've got squirtle at least 55:45 Zelda... probably at least 55:45 sheik and 60:40 or worse still for Zelda/Sheik.

Ivysaur
tough to approach. easy to kill. Sheik's vanish, Zelda's Din's, farore's and uair all do bonus knockback. Sheik's vanish is easy to land... really. zelda's din's and farore's are easy to land. Zelda's Uair will kill before 60% on most stages.... I think..... it's sickening. it might be harder to land but, good lord, you have to start fearing it pretty much right off the bat. Sheik's vanish will kill in double digits too. Anyway... Ivy gives her trouble if he can zone her.... but if she gets him in the air, she's got him for a little bit at least.... and downsmash.... it is super super **** against him.... sorry ivy.. you are simply not living from that past a moderate damage unless zelda is asleep for the ledgehog.

This one is probably 55:45-60:40 (I'd lean towards the latter) for zelda... but sheik can do worse I think. she can outcamp with needles and edgeguard much better.


Charizard is the ugliest of the three. He gets lightning kicked like noone's business and he can't do much against zelda's usmash. Really what he's got on her is the ability to cheaply edgeguard her... and zelda CAN avoid that. there's really not much to say... he is big... bulky and not very maneuverable... he's practically a sitting duck in the air, and zelda doesn't have too much trouble getting him there. And don't think he'll have a much better time against sheik who can pepper him with attacks and tilt lock him to high damages in no time at all. then it's just a matter of a boost smash or a transform for a KO.

Charlie is easy for all forms of zelda... really.... it's not pretty unless you can get off some big momentum boosting quick KO.


Final word here: PT should never win. Zelda/Sheik has the ability to beat any pokemon with any possible combination of Zelda alone, Sheik alone or both together. Zelda's transform is easier and safer than PT's too, so don't even think about trying to CP us with your pokemon 'cause we can do it right back and better. if the zelda user knows how to use both zelda and sheik and is familiar with the matchup, we have a response to everything you could do reeally. Sorry. this is an easy matchup. Zelda/Sheik is a hard counter to pokemon trainer and either zelda or sheik alone is still advantaged

 

[-Mars-]

OK, I want to get this into everybody's heads, Charizard is not a winged Bowser, he only looks like that due to his size (which is of course morphed in Brawl, a real Charizard is 5'7", the average Male American can beat that. I'm around that Height right now. Fox is taller than that) and the Flamethrower. I did testing, and Bowser's Fire breath goes a bit farther, yet Charizard's flamethrower lasts a bit longer. Charizard is incredibly Mobile, which is awkward if you never played Pokemon, as Charizard belongs to a group well known to be rocks when it comes to the agility test (In Pokemon, Charizard has a rather high speed stat, so in a way it makes sense, but then again in Pokemon Rock smash sucks, so Poke logic doesn't ALWAYS equal smash logic). Because Charizard is a huge target, Din's fire and lightning aerial attacks (or whatever the **** you call them) are rather easy to land, but don't expect to launch him with them, as Charizard is among the heaviest Characters in the game and the Heaviest Pokemon to date. If on ground, a shield will likely link to a grab, which, if facing Charizard, normally means you're in a world of pain. A grab can link to many things, including throw, a combo, Flamethrower, and sometimes a Rock smash can pop in. After around 20% damage, Characters typically start landing Prone through the throws, and ordinarily, Charizard doesn't have a chain grab, but teching out of it and that 7th fastest speed really kicks in. Yes, Charizard hates to be juggled, but he is really good at being the juggler. Here's my advice (as of right now), want to do your worst to charizard, then press Down B.

I'll say that it's leaning in Charizard's favor, but I don't think by that much, so like 55:45 Char's favor, but it's give or take like 10.

PS: Because PT has no/an awkward/a false Projectile, Naryu's love ain't gonna help you as much as it would help against Snake for example.

I read your post.....and then proceeded to literally laugh at my computer chair. I have no idea why you started talking about the Pokemon games......not only has the franchise become incredibly repetitive and dull, it has nothing to do with a matchup discussion for
Brawl.

Landing a grab on Zelda is not even close to how simple you make it sound. Fsmash is safe on shield and dtilt is safe on shield.

On the flip side of things....if you touch Zeldas shield in any unsafe matter your getting hit with dtilt, usmash, or bair/fair OoS. A fresh bair will kill Charizard at around 100, so don't make it seem like he will live forever in this matchup. Zelda's OoS options are far better than any of Charizards options.

Also, really the only Pokemon that will ever gimp Zelda is Charizard....she's not going to be forced to use Farore's very often anyways as the Pokemon have few moves that force a low trajectory.

Zelda has a 55:45 or even matchup with Squirtle and the other two are both 60:40 in her advantage.

 

[Tien2500]

I'm not sure if Nayru's love can properly reflect flamethrower. The flame sometimes reflects and is cancelled by the incoming flames in a weird way. I would guess that Zelda can LK Charizard out of his flamethrower but usually I'll stop using it if Zelda starts DIing too close to it. From this you can either jab combo or possibly grab. Dair shouldn't be spiking Charizard as his Up B has super armor frames.

Anyway as for hedgedawg.

Squirtle playing well should not be hit with a lightning kick. He's a small target, his aerials are very quick and he is amazingly maneuvarable in the air. Assuming we're talking about a competent Squirtle the air will be a bad place for Zelda. As for trading hits Squirtle is very quick and he's likely not going to be standing there "trading" hits. He's going to hit and run. A smart Squirtle can be very hard to hit even for Zelda. Still 55:45 seems reasonable but thinking about it I may lean towards even.

As for Sheik ftilt lock can be bad but I don't think much worse than other characters and Squirt has a far easier time approaching here. He can be much more aggresive and it can be hard to handle. I don't think Sheik has much going for her in this matchup besides the Ftilt lock so I'd call it about even.

Ivy- I don't see Zelda being able to effectively approach Ivy at all. The only fire move that is going to make a difference is Uair which Ivy shouldn't be getting hit with anyway. Farores wind probably won't KO regardless and neither will Din's fire unless Ivy gets careless at the top of the stage. Farore's wind also leaves Zelda a bit vulneralbe upon landing. Ivy's Uair is not as ridiculous as Zelda's but is still very powerful. Ivy's aerial game is also a bit better than you give it credit for. Dsmash is great against Ivy but Ivy should be staying out of its range.

As for Sheik speed and needles can be a problem and Sheik is also going to have an easier time approaching Ivy. On the flip side if Sheik doesn't DI properly her fall speed makes her take quite a bit of damage from one bullet seed. Ivy also has a better approach here and in my opinion a better up close game against Sheik. Vanish is very telegraphed. How will this be easy to land. I'd say this matchup is probably 55:45 Sheik, maybe even.

Charizard is actually very mobile, at least on the ground. He's very fast moving. Also remember as I mentioned before rock smash does around 40% damage. When hit properly. This could be a pretty big factor. Rock Smash also works very well for defensive purposes. Fsmash is going to KO Zelda at very low percentages. As steeler pointed out Charizards aerials are faster than I gave them credit for and remember that he can use Rocksmash in the air which can make approaching him in the air quite difficult. He also has super armor on his Up B which I've used successfully on several occasions as a sort of counter to lightning kicks.

Sheik takes a nice chunk of damage from flamethrower due to weight and I find is more succeptible to grabs. Rock smash is still a threat and Sheik will have a very hard time KOing without a switch. Both characters can rack up damage quickly on the other but Sheik alone I think is at a disadvantage due to the lack of power.

I agree PT is at a disadvantage but saying PT should never win is a ridiculous statement and is a bit confusing when you consider that you listed two of the pokemon as a 55:45 matchup against Zelda. I would actually put Sheik alone at a disadvantage, Zelda alone at 55:45 or maybe 60:40 and the two together at 60:40. Definitely not a hard counter from my experience.

Mars- If Zelda can't land her lightning kick Charizard can indeed live a long time. LK is the only thing that should be knocking Charizard out below 120 or so. Also Squirtle can gimp Zelda as well. As for moves that send you back at a low trajectory Squirtle has Dsmash and Dair. Fthrow and Bthrow can also leave you in an edgeguardable position. Ivy only has Dsmash. Charizard has Fair, Dtilt and to an extent Fthrow and Bthrow.

Charizards attacks are pretty much safe on the shield. Rock smash's duration should prevent a counter attack. Dtilt and Ftilt should both leave you out of range for retaliation. You're more likely to see Dtilt and that is also a very fast move with little lag. I'm not sure if the jab combo has enough lag to be punished but I would guess not. I'm not sure what other attacks you'd really see from Charizard at that range.

Like I said I'd really like to play someone from here to get a better grip on this matchup. Any takers?

 

[Kataefi]

JigglyZelda wasn't saying Charizard is like bowser is terms of moveset or whatever, it's because we treat all heavies in a similar fashion regarding lightning kicks. They are big, so we can connect LKs a lot better.

I don't care if current Zelda players havn't learnt that tripping Charizard with Dtilt connects with a SH Bair sweetspot, the combo works, and it kills him very early. Especially if it's saved as the kill move around 90%+.

If we are guaranteed a 21% attack with huge knockback that combos truly from a frame 5 attack, I believe she will go at least even if not in her favour.

I'd be willing to fight anyone from the UK to test this matchup out! ^^ We'll lag like crazy otherwise =(

 

[Tien2500]

JigglyZelda wasn't saying Charizard is like bowser is terms of moveset or whatever, it's because we treat all heavies in a similar fashion regarding lightning kicks. They are big, so we can connect LKs a lot better.

I don't care if current Zelda players havn't learnt that tripping Charizard with Dtilt connects with a SH Bair sweetspot, the combo works, and it kills him very early. Especially if it's saved as the kill move around 90%+.

If we are guaranteed a 21% attack with huge knockback that combos truly from a frame 5 attack, I believe she will go at least even if not in her favour.

I'd be willing to fight anyone from the UK to test this matchup out! ^^ We'll lag like crazy otherwise =(

The thing is Bowser gets compared to Charizard a lot mainly due to flamethrower and a similar Fsmash... which is really all they have in common. Its vexing as a Charizard main. Anyway the combo isn't listed in the combo thread but if it does work that would definitely change things. I think the matchup is already in her favor though.

I'd also like to see if Charizard has a grab release combo into a dtilt. This should kill at about 110 and also may influence most of the match. Zelda mains still seem to be ignoring the issue of rocksmash which I don't think they'd do if they've played a good Zard.

Too bad I live in NY. Otherwise I'd play you

 

[Kataefi]

I understand the issue, but Zeldas stereotype all heavies to be similar in some way because of the ease of sweetspotting, and with good reason too.

Charizard can't do a grab release to Dtilt. She can get a DSmash in time before his Dtilt comes out. I've tested this.

 

[Tien2500]

Cool thanks for the info.

 

[Villi]

Rock Smash isn't a problem for Zelda. It's not a safe approach because it's so telegraphed and easily out prioritized. There are very few situations when Zelda would be hit by it because of Din's, up smash, and up air. I think the matchup is in Zelda's favor because he really has a hard time approaching her and keeping her juggled. Definitely the easiest of the three for her.

Ivy's razor leaf camping is problematic, but it gives Zelda a small opening to approach. Din's doesn't win, but powershielding or jumping and guessing Ivy's defense will get her inside. Predicting a razor leaf and hitting with up b also works. I think this is also in Zelda's favor because Zelda keeps momentum better than Ivy is able to and Ivy doesn't do much damage unless she gets trapped in bullet seed.

I think Squirtle has the advantage. He racks up tons of damage. His fair and general speed is ridiculous. If he manages to get inside, he can just do a bunch of **** to her and it's terrible. lol defensive fsmashes, dtilts, and pivot grabs help and so does up smash. Squirtle's fair and aerial mobility gives him a great spacing advantage, though. His up air combos and air dodge chasing are pretty hard to deal with. IMO it's worse than being launched by ZSS. Just get him in a dtilt lock as soon as you can and learn to DI his dthrow into the corner every time. Just go Sheik and tilt **** him, plz.

 

[Steeler]

using neutral b on flamethrower will just send the flame back and clash with the incoming breath, so charizard will not get hit unless he stops the flame.

 

[Tien2500]

Rock Smash isn't a problem for Zelda. It's not a safe approach because it's so telegraphed and easily out prioritized. There are very few situations when Zelda would be hit by it because of Din's, up smash, and up air. I think the matchup is in Zelda's favor because he really has a hard time approaching her and keeping her juggled. Definitely the easiest of the three for her.

I'm not sure I follow you here. Uair wouldn't help against rocksmash at all. Charizard is very unlikely to approach with rocksmash from directly above. Any good player should know better than to approach Zelda from directly above. Din's fire is also not going to help unless Charizard for some reason starts his rocksmash very far away. Usmash will outprioritize it depending on the spacing. But Charizard doesn't have to hit you with the actual headbutt part of the move. The splash damage from the rock explosion is disjointed and can be used for damage and to stun opponents. Rocksmash can also be wavebounced (which can be very useful but few PTs actually do this). And rocksmash also can be used in a defensive manner.

I'm not trying to make out rocksmash to be the greatest move ever and it definitely can be punished if used improperly/overused but a good Charizard will probably get a few shots in over the course of a match.

 

[Tien2500]

using neutral b on flamethrower will just send the flame back and clash with the incoming breath, so charizard will not get hit unless he stops the flame.

Yeah I thought this was the case. But I think it also may depend on the range. I think I've had the flames reflected at me if I was too close.

 

[Steeler]

Yeah I thought this was the case. But I think it also may depend on the range. I think I've had the flames reflected at me if I was too close.

yeah if your hurtbox is in range of the returning flame it may hit you before it clashes with the next flame.

bad spacing

 

[Villi]

I'm not sure I follow you here. Uair wouldn't help against rocksmash at all. Charizard is very unlikely to approach with rocksmash from directly above. Any good player should know better than to approach Zelda from directly above. Din's fire is also not going to help unless Charizard for some reason starts his rocksmash very far away. Usmash will outprioritize it depending on the spacing. But Charizard doesn't have to hit you with the actual headbutt part of the move. The splash damage from the rock explosion is disjointed and can be used for damage and to stun opponents. Rocksmash can also be wavebounced (which can be very useful but few PTs actually do this). And rocksmash also can be used in a defensive manner.

I'm not trying to make out rocksmash to be the greatest move ever and it definitely can be punished if used improperly/overused but a good Charizard will probably get a few shots in over the course of a match.

I meant that just using up air from below him could punish him for using it defensively, trying to touch the ground after being sent up. The openings just aren't there most of the time. I'm not saying I never get rock smashed, but my Zelda doesn't get rock smashed much unless I screw up and get rocksmash up smashed (which happens too much if it happens at all, imo >__>). And it has a lot of ending lag so it's not nice to hit a shield it doesn't stab or to whiff. btw, I'm not exactly sure how rock smash works. There are some times when I'll break the rock and hit Charizard and other times when I'll just take a lot of damage and another rock smash will come out and I'll take more. >.< what is that?

Flame thrower is ok if it's spaced far away, but at close range, it's pretty easy to escape and possible to SDI in and get a fair.

 

[Tien2500]

I meant that just using up air from below him could punish him for using it defensively, trying to touch the ground after being sent up. I'm not saying I never get rock smashed, but my Zelda doesn't get rock smashed much unless I screw up and get rocksmash up smashed (which happens too much if it happens at all, imo >__>). And it has a lot of ending lag so it's not nice to hit a shield it doesn't stab or to whiff. btw, I'm not exactly sure how rock smash works. There are some times when I'll break the rock and hit Charizard and other times when I'll just take a lot of damage and another rock smash will come out and I'll take more. >.< what is that?

Oh well when I said use it defensively I was talking about if Zelda was approaching horizontally with like a lightning kick. Charizard should never be using this if he is above Zelda. The ending lag really isn't too bad because the rocks stick around for a while and prevent punishment. It makes the move fairly safe.

If you hit Charizard out of rocksmash in the begining of the animation the rock will disappear and you'll be fine. If you hit him too late though the rock will shatter and you'll get hit by them which can possibly lead to another rock smash. It actually can work a bit like marth or peach's counters.

 

[Villi]

Oh well when I said use it defensively I was talking about if Zelda was approaching horizontally with like a lightning kick. Charizard should never be using this if he is above Zelda. The ending lag really isn't too bad because the rocks stick around for a while and prevent punishment. It makes the move fairly safe.

If you hit Charizard out of rocksmash in the begining of the animation the rock will disappear and you'll be fine. If you hit him too late though the rock will shatter and you'll get hit by them which can possibly lead to another rock smash. It actually can work a bit like marth or peach's counters.

Yeah I know Peach vs Charizard and **** rock smash in that matchup lol Castration fair to the balls to avoid the rock.

Edit: Oh, I get what you mean and yeah... Don't run into rock smash, kids.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Anyway as for hedgedawg.

Squirtle playing well should not be hit with a lightning kick. He's a small target, his aerials are very quick and he is amazingly maneuvarable in the air. Assuming we're talking about a competent Squirtle the air will be a bad place for Zelda. As for trading hits Squirtle is very quick and he's likely not going to be standing there "trading" hits.

if he comes at me in the air and has over 50% damage, I'm throwing out a power aerial at him. Zelda's aerials come out fast and, yes, squirtle's are better and more reliable.. but you DO know that if we both use fair against each other I CAN sweetspot your feet and, yes, we'll both hit... but I'll get bumped and you'll get rocketed. There's not much we can do against squirtle from a diagonal, but if he's ever approaching us from a cardinal direction in the air, he's gotta be very careful or lucky. we don't have to win a bunch of exchanges; it only takes one.

He's going to hit and run. A smart Squirtle can be very hard to hit even for Zelda. Still 55:45 seems reasonable but thinking about it I may lean towards even.

Zelda has a rather easy time connecting on the defensive. it's just too **** hard to get through her Usmash from the air, her Fsmash from the ground or to roll next to her with Dsmash and Nayru's coming out so fast.

As for Sheik ftilt lock can be bad but I don't think much worse than other characters and Squirt has a far easier time approaching here. He can be much more aggresive and it can be hard to handle. I don't think Sheik has much going for her in this matchup besides the Ftilt lock so I'd call it about even.

sheik trades some of zelda's power and priority, but maintains an advantage in range/priority/power over squirtle and is MUCH more effective in the air when compared to zelda. Besides, Ftilt lock leads into Usmash which kills Squirtle WAY early and squirtle is not incredibly tough to edgeguard.

Ivy- I don't see Zelda being able to effectively approach Ivy at all. The only fire move that is going to make a difference is Uair which Ivy shouldn't be getting hit with anyway. Farores wind probably won't KO regardless and neither will Din's fire unless Ivy gets careless at the top of the stage. Farore's wind also leaves Zelda a bit vulneralbe upon landing. Ivy's Uair is not as ridiculous as Zelda's but is still very powerful. Ivy's aerial game is also a bit better than you give it credit for. Dsmash is great against Ivy but Ivy should be staying out of its range.

Din's trades with razor leaf for a big advantage on zelda's end unless zelda waits until AFTER razor leaf to start her dins... and at that range she can just use nayru's. Everyone says they'll never get hit by zelda's uair.... believe it or not, it happens. Ivy can just afford to get hit by it less than anyone else can. Ivysaur in the air can't do much against zelda on the ground. We just wait for you... usmash if you don't do anything and uair if you do... or follow up with whatever if you leave yourself open some other way.

Anyway, since Zelda/Sheik beats PT, it's not unreasonable to assume that we may have a stock advatage... ivy doesn't win this one if he's on offense... but he's the hardest pokemon for zelda when he's on defense.

As for Sheik speed and needles can be a problem and Sheik is also going to have an easier time approaching Ivy. On the flip side if Sheik doesn't DI properly her fall speed makes her take quite a bit of damage from one bullet seed. Ivy also has a better approach here and in my opinion a better up close game against Sheik. Vanish is very telegraphed. How will this be easy to land. I'd say this matchup is probably 55:45 Sheik, maybe even.

I'll normally be zelda when % is low so that bullet seed won't **** me. Ivy's close range game < sheik's though. Sheik's is a LOT faster and she doesn't have to hit ivy hard to put him in gimp range. Oh and vanish hits well. It has invincibility frames. You use any attack that lingers and we can get inside your range with invincibility and then explode on you. you don't accellerate quickly enough to punish us even if you CAN sheild it. I normally use it against ivys who are trying to fall with nair or bullet seed.

Charizard is actually very mobile, at least on the ground. He's very fast moving. Also remember as I mentioned before rock smash does around 40% damage. When hit properly. This could be a pretty big factor. Rock Smash also works very well for defensive purposes. Fsmash is going to KO Zelda at very low percentages. As steeler pointed out Charizards aerials are faster than I gave them credit for and remember that he can use Rocksmash in the air which can make approaching him in the air quite difficult. He also has super armor on his Up B which I've used successfully on several occasions as a sort of counter to lightning kicks.

the risk reward says lightning kicks are still better than charlie's up+B. Rock smash really shouldn't be hitting often enout at all to make it matter... especially since it rarely rarely rarely will do the full damage to zelda since she's light. and it's not just the speed of charlie's aerials.... his air speed is bad... just plain bad. Zelda's is good. she wins against charlie no matter how you slice it.

Sheik takes a nice chunk of damage from flamethrower due to weight and I find is more succeptible to grabs. Rock smash is still a threat and Sheik will have a very hard time KOing without a switch. Both characters can rack up damage quickly on the other but Sheik alone I think is at a disadvantage due to the lack of power.

lack of power hardly matters when sheik has 20% damage and you have 120%... and your size and cooldown on several attacks mean you're just a boost smash away from death.

I agree PT is at a disadvantage but saying PT should never win is a ridiculous statement and is a bit confusing when you consider that you listed two of the pokemon as a 55:45 matchup against Zelda. I would actually put Sheik alone at a disadvantage, Zelda alone at 55:45 or maybe 60:40 and the two together at 60:40. Definitely not a hard counter from my experience.

adequate use of both of zelda's personaes will leave no less than a 60:40 advantage on any of PT's pokemon. The WORST you could do would be to use a straight zelda or a straight sheik and you'd STILL be at least slightly favoured in every matchup.

it's hardly a fair matchup. This is zelda/sheik's to lose. Hell... it's zelda's alone to lose and sheik's alone to lose... it's just REALLY zelda/sheik's to lose.

 

[Charizard92]

Well, I think your love of Charizard is great, but he does not beat Zelda. If he tries to grab release jab combo, naryu's will beat it. If you fire breath, naryu's will get us out of it. Plus, Zelda can get out of fire breath and punish you for it during its cool down. Usmash destroys Charizard's glide attack (as it does for every glide attack).

He is able to get off stage and cause us havoc. Our Dair does not beat his Uair or UpB from what I've played (aka I don't know 100% certain).

Yes, I know it's great too, but some of your reasoning is kinda out there. I personally don't use a jab combo out of a grab release, I personally throw and then juggle, and Charizard is good at juggling (Zelda has a defense against juggling right?)
Officially, it's flamethrower, and if you Naryu that it will clank the flames, thus preventing recoil damage.
Flamethrower has a cool down?
Of all of the Characters capable of gliding, Charizard is the least likely to actually use a glide, so a situation where you just Usmash him to pieces is rare (well, from a glide)

I'm sure I've posted stuff on the trainer boards so I'm not going to repost it until it becomes necisary but.

Charizard is the ugliest of the three. He gets lightning kicked like noone's business and he can't do much against zelda's usmash. Really what he's got on her is the ability to cheaply edgeguard her... and zelda CAN avoid that. there's really not much to say... he is big... bulky and not very maneuverable... he's practically a sitting duck in the air, and zelda doesn't have too much trouble getting him there. And don't think he'll have a much better time against sheik who can pepper him with attacks and tilt lock him to high damages in no time at all. then it's just a matter of a boost smash or a transform for a KO.

Charlie is easy for all forms of zelda... really.... it's not pretty unless you can get off some big momentum boosting quick KO.

OK, the Usmash thing and the Lightning Kick thing may be reasonable, but Charizard isn't a sitting duck in the air. I don't know what silly Idea people have that says "Charizard is slow in the air" because he is moderately fast. Charizard's problem against juggling isn't that he's slow, but he has rather mediocre defenses against them (pretty much nair).

I honestly do think Shiek is the actual threat here. Shiek has several things against Char, including all three thing he hates (hit and run tactics, juggling, and a projectile). Really, choose her, forget Zelda unless you can't get the time to transform.

the risk reward says lightning kicks are still better than charlie's up+B. Rock smash really shouldn't be hitting often enout at all to make it matter... especially since it rarely rarely rarely will do the full damage to zelda since she's light. and it's not just the speed of charlie's aerials.... his air speed is bad... just plain bad. Zelda's is good. she wins against charlie no matter how you slice it.

lack of power hardly matters when sheik has 20% damage and you have 120%... and your size and cooldown on several attacks mean you're just a boost smash away from death.

it's hardly a fair matchup. This is zelda/sheik's to lose. Hell... it's zelda's alone to lose and sheik's alone to lose... it's just REALLY zelda/sheik's to lose.

Oh yeah, up B. Charizard CAN counter lightning Kicks with them.
It isn't weight that determines how much damage Rock smash does, it's placement. Charizard can (in theory at least) land a full blown Rock smash against jigglypuff, who is smaller and lighter than you.

As I'll admit, Shiek is the terrifying one.

Against Char, ok, it is leaning towards Zelda, but it isn't any lower than close to even (zelda55:45char)

Shiek, That's more reasonable (Shiek60:40Char).

If I hear one more thing about Charizard being just another heavy hitter I'm gonna...

PS: I decided to look up the air speed of Characters, and as it turns out, Charizard is the 10th fastest in the air. Zelda is the 11th fastest, so she is slightly slower (they are around even). Shiek is ranked 21.

 

[Kataefi]

At best his up b will trade hits with lightning kicks, which is good for Zelda if she's getting the better tradeoff. He is completely punishable with a sweetspot from both Fair and Bair OoS as a punishment, and she guarantees a sweetspot every time he trips from dtilt, a frame 5 attack, with a buffered bair. Flame Zelda, and she'll have the chance to SDI towards you and sweetspot.

There's more than enough ways to finish this guy off IMO with a lightning kick.

Ledged dsmash can force him to use his glide which sets up for din's / spike / lightning kick / whatever.

Also, what is his answer to spaced Fsmashes? I don't think he has good approaches against her. Do any of his aerials autocancel at all?

I feel as if Zelda is advantaged, but I can't decide by how much.

 

[Charizard92]

Yeah I kinda admitted that with the 55:45 Zelda advantage, but I don't think it's total nightmare for Char (at least with Zelda).

If you mean auto cancel like I think you do (attack just after the jump right), then Bair and fiar are both auto cancelable. Outside Shield grabbing, not much can be done to stop a spacing Fsmash game. Then again, Zelda can say the same thing when it comes to Charizard's juggling (I think someone stated before that Her dair is beat by his Uair, which is a juggle move). Really, I'm gonna say 55:45 Zelda. Sorry for the flaming like talk, see, when it comes to match ups, most people take one week, and if we weren't there to talk some sense, it typically comes out something like "we trash PT, he sucks". We have this Problem with the high tiers especially, but low tier people do this too (Heck, C. Falcon did this, and their evidence was more half ***ed than double whatever you guys came up with.)

Here's my tip for Zelda, press down B. Ninja Shiek is much more nightmarish than Princess Zelda, for more reasons than one.

 

[Kataefi]

I totally understand what you're saying... and we're in no position to underestimate PT because we're also towards the bottom half of the tier list ourselves ^^

I feel Zelda actually does the same as Sheik on Charizard, though that's with me personally, I don't know how the other Zeldas feel. I think if played right they're both equally as bad. Spaced FSmashes can remain unpunishable, and Charizard will struggle. Dtilt trip combos lead to sweetspots. And she can force glides with DSmash, which lead to spikes and very early kills in general. All of which Sheik will normally struggle to do, but of course build up damage in various other ways. But Sheik can sometimes sturggle for the kill if Ftilt > USmash is failing to work, and Charizard can capitalise on this.

 

[Villi]

For Sheik, Charizard's grab range is as good as DDD's. Ftilt isn't safe against a shield. Charizard can also up b out of ftilts. Charizard's ground speed makes needle camping difficult, so yeah. Damage racking is possible and so are 180% KOs.... Sheik could have a tough time killing Charizard (or else he dies at 92%, sorry stock-tankers), but Zelda won't.

 

[Kataefi]

The difference in kill percents that charz will die between both Sheik and Zelda is noticeable if Sheik can't get that tippered USmash in. And the difference can be huge!

I'd rather go all lightning kicks than rely on one move that comes across mildly predictable at later percents.

 

[DarkThundah]

I feel Zelda actually does the same as Sheik on Charizard, though that's with me personally, I don't know how the other Zeldas feel. I think if played right they're both equally as bad.

As someone who mains both Zelda and Sheik, depending on the matchup, I would be comfortable using either for this matchup. So yeah, I think they are both equally as bad for charchar...assuming they are played properly. I'm not gonna piggyback since much of what needs to be said about the advantages of both Zelda and sheik have been mentioned.

However, on a more serious note... Charizard92 I love your posts

(which is of course morphed in Brawl, a real Charizard is 5'7", the average Male American can beat that. I'm around that Height right now. Fox is taller than that) In Pokemon, Charizard has a rather high speed stat, so in a way it makes sense, but then again in Pokemon Rock smash sucks, so Poke logic doesn't ALWAYS equal smash logic)

But you forgot to mention that fire attacks aren't very effective against Charizard so the damage from dins fire will be halved. Furthermore, since squirtle is a water pokemon, both lightning and fire damage are "Super Effective". Sucks for squritle eh?

 

[Tien2500]

if he comes at me in the air and has over 50% damage, I'm throwing out a power aerial at him. Zelda's aerials come out fast and, yes, squirtle's are better and more reliable.. but you DO know that if we both use fair against each other I CAN sweetspot your feet and, yes, we'll both hit... but I'll get bumped and you'll get rocketed. There's not much we can do against squirtle from a diagonal, but if he's ever approaching us from a cardinal direction in the air, he's gotta be very careful or lucky. we don't have to win a bunch of exchanges; it only takes one.


Zelda has a rather easy time connecting on the defensive. it's just too **** hard to get through her Usmash from the air, her Fsmash from the ground or to roll next to her with Dsmash and Nayru's coming out so fast.

sheik trades some of zelda's power and priority, but maintains an advantage in range/priority/power over squirtle and is MUCH more effective in the air when compared to zelda. Besides, Ftilt lock leads into Usmash which kills Squirtle WAY early and squirtle is not incredibly tough to edgeguard.

Din's trades with razor leaf for a big advantage on zelda's end unless zelda waits until AFTER razor leaf to start her dins... and at that range she can just use nayru's. Everyone says they'll never get hit by zelda's uair.... believe it or not, it happens. Ivy can just afford to get hit by it less than anyone else can. Ivysaur in the air can't do much against zelda on the ground. We just wait for you... usmash if you don't do anything and uair if you do... or follow up with whatever if you leave yourself open some other way.

Anyway, since Zelda/Sheik beats PT, it's not unreasonable to assume that we may have a stock advatage... ivy doesn't win this one if he's on offense... but he's the hardest pokemon for zelda when he's on defense.

I'll normally be zelda when % is low so that bullet seed won't **** me. Ivy's close range game < sheik's though. Sheik's is a LOT faster and she doesn't have to hit ivy hard to put him in gimp range. Oh and vanish hits well. It has invincibility frames. You use any attack that lingers and we can get inside your range with invincibility and then explode on you. you don't accellerate quickly enough to punish us even if you CAN sheild it. I normally use it against ivys who are trying to fall with nair or bullet seed.

the risk reward says lightning kicks are still better than charlie's up+B. Rock smash really shouldn't be hitting often enout at all to make it matter... especially since it rarely rarely rarely will do the full damage to zelda since she's light. and it's not just the speed of charlie's aerials.... his air speed is bad... just plain bad. Zelda's is good. she wins against charlie no matter how you slice it.

lack of power hardly matters when sheik has 20% damage and you have 120%... and your size and cooldown on several attacks mean you're just a boost smash away from death.


adequate use of both of zelda's personaes will leave no less than a 60:40 advantage on any of PT's pokemon. The WORST you could do would be to use a straight zelda or a straight sheik and you'd STILL be at least slightly favoured in every matchup.

it's hardly a fair matchup. This is zelda/sheik's to lose. Hell... it's zelda's alone to lose and sheik's alone to lose... it's just REALLY zelda/sheik's to lose.

Squirtle- Squirtle has some tricks on offense to put pressure on Zelda. He shouldn't be getting hit with Usmash and he shouldn't be near you long enough to let you hit power attacks. He'll be focussing on jabs and tilts which are too quick to be punished. Squirtle also probably won't be rolling towards Zelda. He doesn't roll too much.

A good Squirtle also shouldn't be getting hit with lighting kicks. He can come at Zelda from awkward angles that will make it hard for her to sweetspot and he's naturally a small target. If Squirtle is playing right he shouldn't get hit with this.

Sheik is better in the air than Zelda but Squirtle is still significantly better. As long as Squirtle can avoid the Ftilt he's fine in this matchup.

Razorleaf can be more effective than Din's fire depending on the range. If Zelda uses Nayru's love it won't reflect that quickly and Ivy most likely won't get hit by it. I'm pretty sure Ivy can Bair Zelda from the air which can combo into tilts. Fair I think should also be able to hit through Usmash and should be safe on the shield. A careful Ivy shouldn't be getting hit by Uair. Of course it is going to happen now and then but thats just if Ivysaur screws up.

Ivy's tilts are very quick. Bullet seed comes out within 5 frames. Ivysaur is not that slow in close combat. Also whenever I've been Ftilt locked by Sheik I've been able to BS out of it. If Ivy screws up yes you can hit him with vanish but Ivy can also punish Sheik if she screws up.

As Charizard 92 pointed out. Rock smash hitting with full power doesn't have much to do with the weight of a character. It depends on your position when you hit it. I'm not reccomending that you use UP B intentionally to trade with lightning kicks but it is an option to avoid the knockback and leaves you in a better position than airdodging.

And what are these high cooldown attacks you're talking about? Fsmash? Charizard isn't going to be throwing around Fsmashes like an idiot unless he is an idiot. Dtilt has very low cooldown as do Charizards grabs and jabs. Rocksmash has cooldown but the rocks leave you protected during that.

And why are you assuming that Charizard can't deal damage to Sheik? A misspaced approach can be punished with flamethrower, rocksmash is still effective here, and Charizard will undoubtedly get a few sheildgrabs in this matchup. Unless of course sheik plays perfectly. And this is my problem with your analysis of this matchup.

The PT you're describing is one that is making a ton of mistakes. For instance a smart squirtle won't jump into an Fsmash and won't approach Zelda in the air from an angle where he's prone to be lightning kicked.

You're assuming that Charizard is throwing out highly laggy moves and is sitting in the air waiting to be lightning kicked.

You're assuming that Ivy will get hit by an Uair but if Zelda screws up she can be hit with an powerful Uair or an Usmash which will KO at around 80%.

Of course a perfectly played Zelda or Sheik will beat a poorly played PT. The question is what happens when evenly matched players face eachother. I'm not disputing that Zelda and Zelda/Sheik have an advantage here but you're severely underestimating PT's options and advantages here.

Anyway once again I'll be glad to play you in a few matches because I don't think we're going to get much further in this discussion with theory crafting alone.

 

[Villi]

The difference in kill percents that charz will die between both Sheik and Zelda is noticeable if Sheik can't get that tippered USmash in. And the difference can be huge!

I'd rather go all lightning kicks than rely on one move that comes across mildly predictable at later percents.

Anyone who's played this game knows Sheik wants to ftilt you. ^_^ Lightning kick spam will get you destroyed, on the other hand.

 

[Tien2500]

I totally understand what you're saying... and we're in no position to underestimate PT because we're also towards the bottom half of the tier list ourselves ^^

I feel Zelda actually does the same as Sheik on Charizard, though that's with me personally, I don't know how the other Zeldas feel. I think if played right they're both equally as bad. Spaced FSmashes can remain unpunishable, and Charizard will struggle. Dtilt trip combos lead to sweetspots. And she can force glides with DSmash, which lead to spikes and very early kills in general. All of which Sheik will normally struggle to do, but of course build up damage in various other ways. But Sheik can sometimes sturggle for the kill if Ftilt > USmash is failing to work, and Charizard can capitalise on this.

I think if a Fsmash is poorly spaced Zard can counter with a flamethrower. And Dtilt may outrange it but I'm not sure.

I personally like playing against Sheik much better as Zard. The reason is that Sheik has to be very carefully spaced throughout the whole match. A misspaced aerial can be flamethrowered which racks up damage with Sheik's weight and like Villi (sp?) pointed out Charizards grabrange can be a problem for Sheik.

Zelda also has an easier time KOing Charizard than Sheik and Zelda's defensive game is much harder to break through.

 

[Kataefi]

Lol no that's not what I meant. I meant I'd rather take a lightning kick kill to finish charz early than have to rely on ftilt spam to get a tipper USmash, or just a tipper USmash in general.

I would never spam LKs in any matchup (unless I got unbelievably desperate >.>)

EDIT:: if you have anyone from the UK that mains PT on your boards I'd be totally willing to play them on wifi, I tend to have really good/mildly good connections with other fellow brits ^^

 

[Charizard92]

But you forgot to mention that fire attacks aren't very effective against Charizard so the damage from dins fire will be halved. Furthermore, since squirtle is a water pokemon, both lightning and fire damage are "Super Effective". Sucks for squritle eh?

Actually, there is a theory that there is SOME type match up in Brawl when dealing with PT. What happens is that with a Certain attack, PT's Pokemon will receive an increase/decrease in knock back. This only applies to Fire, water, and grass, and each one is with it's respective Pokemon (wow you really haven't played the Pokemon games, Water beats fire, not vice versa). Because Grass is only existent with Ivysaur, and Squirtle is the only one with water attacks (sans Mario's FLUDD thingy), Charizard is mute on this. Squirtle has the biggest advantage with this theory, and Ivysaur the biggest Problem, Because Fire ain't limited to Charizard. What I was trying to explain is that from a smash logic, Charizard's speed is surprising, as Charizard is incredibly mobile for a group known to be lumbering tanks. Conversely, If you come from the Perspective of Pokemon, this makes sense, as Charizard is quite fast in the games. I was also making a point that this logic is only partial, as Rock smash sucks in the games and is incredibly overpowered in Brawl.

 

[Tien2500]

Actually, there is a theory that there is SOME type match up in Brawl when dealing with PT. What happens is that with a Certain attack, PT's Pokemon will receive an increase/decrease in knock back. This only applies to Fire, water, and grass, and each one is with it's respective Pokemon (wow you really haven't played the Pokemon games, Water beats fire, not vice versa). Because Grass is only existent with Ivysaur, and Squirtle is the only one with water attacks (sans Mario's FLUDD thingy), Charizard is mute on this. Squirtle has the biggest advantage with this theory, and Ivysaur the biggest Problem, Because Fire ain't limited to Charizard. What I was trying to explain is that from a smash logic, Charizard's speed is surprising, as Charizard is incredibly mobile for a group known to be lumbering tanks. Conversely, If you come from the Perspective of Pokemon, this makes sense, as Charizard is quite fast in the games. I was also making a point that this logic is only partial, as Rock smash sucks in the games and is incredibly overpowered in Brawl.

If the game actually went by pokemon logic then Zard would also be weak against lightning kicks.

 

[DarkThundah]

The question is what happens when evenly matched players face eachother

I think it’s better to think of it in terms of character x at the apex of its current metagame vs. character y at the apex of its current metagame. Of course you need to take into account an attacks level of difficulty, like sheiks dacus or Ice climbers 0-death chain grab, but that all falls under the "current metagame" category.

It’s not a matter of evenly matched players facing each other, it is a question of; at the greatest extent of a characters metagame, how will it compare to character y.


And...

wow you really haven't played the Pokemon games

nah uh, I have so!

 

[Charizard92]

If the game actually went by pokemon logic then Zard would also be weak against lightning kicks.

Only Partially. Charizard is only affected by grass and water, Ivysaur is only affected by water and Fire, and Squirtle is only affected by grass and Fire

nah uh, I have so!

You said Squirtle was weak to water.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Squirtle- ...He shouldn't be getting hit with Usmash...

excuse me... what? Are you suggesting that squirtle should consistently be avoinding one of the hardest to avoid moves in the game just.... because?

anyway his jabs and tilts might be fast BUT, squirtle's jabs and tilts don't reach within zelda's range and, once he's inside that range, his tilts don't outspeed zelda's awesome Dsmash or nayru's.

Squirtle is better in the air than sheik.... kind of. he still can't approach through sheik's bair or outspeed her fair so at least sheik can fend of squirtle from the air with little problem. not like sheik would take the battle there... but not like sheik's gonna really lose big time there either.


As for ivy. Bullet seed comes out in 5 frames? well zelda's Dsmash, bair and nayru's will all beat that and hit hard, and dtilt will come out just as fast... and we love Dtilt... sheik has several options that'll beat it out. Jab and Dsmash work wonders and Ftilt is still good. only a dumb sheik would try to ftilt lock ivy when she could get bullet seeded.... but that doesn't stop Dtilt from comboing into one of several other moves depending on damage/DI.

oh and, if zelda is below ivy... he aint winning. his dair is slow and has to be used at a specific range to beat out zelda's Usmash. if he doesn't use it there, he can't get it out in time to beat out usmash and if he does use it, it's easily punished OoS. his bair and fair will only beat it if zelda is in front of/behind ivy... in which case... why would she Usmash?

As for Charlie. I'm sorry. hate it all you want, he's an easy matchup for us. he's big and, while he's not a lumbering tank, he doesn't have to be. Zelda's bair comes out in 4 frames and can sweetspot a grounded charizard if used OoS... oh. and it's unavoidable if used to follow up a Dtilt too. Besides that. Charizard has REALLY poor aerial defenses and poor aerial manueverability (good top speed maybe, but he CANNOT accelerate well.) he's going to get hammered by lightning kicks compared to most of the cast. it's a given. And lightning kicks deal >20 damage and KO in double digits. and he has no way to avoid Usmash when knocked up because his aerials just aren't good against it.

his glide is HORRIBLY punishable BTW if you ever need to use it. Oh and as for those high cooldown moves, you talk about how charlie has rock smash and flamethrower if he predicts our approaches (flamethrower is a BAD idea against zelda since it gives us a free lightning kick on you) but you don't consider what happens if you miss. Charlie will not be hitting with everything and some of his more threatening moves are wildly punishable. you talk about how good flamethrower is for stopping sheik... well. if we notice it and DON'T run into it, we can boost smash as soon as you release B and you CANNOT do anything about it. we punish your amazing rock smash the same way. Zelda doesn't have sheik's boost smash but she's not wanting for ways to punish charlie.

my completely honest opinion is:

Squirtle:
55:45 Zelda
55:45 Sheik
60:40 Zelda/Sheik

Ivysaur
55:45 Zelda
60:40 Sheik
60:40 Zelda/Sheik

Charizard:
65:35 Zelda
60:40 Sheik
70:30 Zelda/Sheik

PT on the whole
60:40 Zelda
60:40 Sheik
65:35 Zelda/Sheik


and, no. I'm not underestimating pokemon trainer because I never play against him or anything. I have some experience on the matchup and, I'm sorry, it's one of zelda's easier ones.

 

[Charizard92]

Wait, you're math is kinda awkward. Let me set this straight:

Squirtle: 55:45 both (Where did the 40:60 come from?)
Ivysaur: 60:40 (Ok, that was right)
Charizard: 65:35 both (Where did the 30:70 come from?)

Pokemon Trainer:
55:45 Zelda
55:45 Shiek
60:40 Both (see, with PT, we use the average of the upper two, so the numbers of the worst Pokemon [according to your math, Charizard] is redundant).

PS: why do you Call Charizard Charlie? The only useable Nickname is Char.