Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

[adumbrodeus]

As for ivy. Bullet seed comes out in 5 frames? well zelda's Dsmash, bair and nayru's will all beat that and hit hard, and dtilt will come out just as fast... and we love Dtilt... sheik has several options that'll beat it out. Jab and Dsmash work wonders and Ftilt is still good. only a dumb sheik would try to ftilt lock ivy when she could get bullet seeded.... but that doesn't stop Dtilt from comboing into one of several other moves depending on damage/DI.

4, the first 3 have invincibility.

Clanking is possible, I'm not sure of the priority, but you DON'T want to use a move that hits before it at the same time unliess it has a lingering hitbox that beats bullet seed.

Wait, you're math is kinda awkward. Let me set this straight:

Squirtle: 55:45 both (Where did the 40:60 come from?)
Ivysaur: 60:40 (Ok, that was right)
Charizard: 65:35 both (Where did the 30:70 come from?)

No, it's perfectly correct, since Zelda and Sheik serve different purposes in the match-up and are usable discretely (in other words the general "rack with sheik, kill with Zelda" works).

Because there's a concrete advantage to switching based on the circumstance, the Zelda/Sheik match-up is gonna be better then either Zelda or Sheik's match-ups.

Actually, in general Zelda/Sheik does better then Zelda or Sheik individually, just having the option is always at least a tiny advantage, but in some match-ups it becomes so insignificant that it's irrelevant.


Simply put, using both makes you effective in more situations. Zelda lacks effective damage-racking options. Sheik lacks effective kill moves. How does a character that has both not do better then a character with only 1?

Pokemon Trainer:
55:45 Zelda
55:45 Shiek
60:40 Both (see, with PT, we use the average of the upper two, so the numbers of the worst Pokemon [according to your math, Charizard] is redundant).

Again, your math phails because an average does not fit this, Zelda/Sheik is better then Zelda or Sheik alone, and generally if they both have the advantage, Zelda/Sheik will have a greater advantage.


An average works for PT because of the forced switch (though you have to subtract because of stamina), but not Zelda/Sheik, ever.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Adumbrodeous is 100% right.

PS: why do you Call Charizard Charlie? The only useable Nickname is Char.

I nickname all of my pokemon when I play the handheld games. charlie was always the name of my charizard.

 

[Tien2500]

excuse me... what? Are you suggesting that squirtle should consistently be avoinding one of the hardest to avoid moves in the game just.... because?

anyway his jabs and tilts might be fast BUT, squirtle's jabs and tilts don't reach within zelda's range and, once he's inside that range, his tilts don't outspeed zelda's awesome Dsmash or nayru's.

Squirtle is better in the air than sheik.... kind of. he still can't approach through sheik's bair or outspeed her fair so at least sheik can fend of squirtle from the air with little problem. not like sheik would take the battle there... but not like sheik's gonna really lose big time there either.


As for ivy. Bullet seed comes out in 5 frames? well zelda's Dsmash, bair and nayru's will all beat that and hit hard, and dtilt will come out just as fast... and we love Dtilt... sheik has several options that'll beat it out. Jab and Dsmash work wonders and Ftilt is still good. only a dumb sheik would try to ftilt lock ivy when she could get bullet seeded.... but that doesn't stop Dtilt from comboing into one of several other moves depending on damage/DI.

oh and, if zelda is below ivy... he aint winning. his dair is slow and has to be used at a specific range to beat out zelda's Usmash. if he doesn't use it there, he can't get it out in time to beat out usmash and if he does use it, it's easily punished OoS. his bair and fair will only beat it if zelda is in front of/behind ivy... in which case... why would she Usmash?

As for Charlie. I'm sorry. hate it all you want, he's an easy matchup for us. he's big and, while he's not a lumbering tank, he doesn't have to be. Zelda's bair comes out in 4 frames and can sweetspot a grounded charizard if used OoS... oh. and it's unavoidable if used to follow up a Dtilt too. Besides that. Charizard has REALLY poor aerial defenses and poor aerial manueverability (good top speed maybe, but he CANNOT accelerate well.) he's going to get hammered by lightning kicks compared to most of the cast. it's a given. And lightning kicks deal >20 damage and KO in double digits. and he has no way to avoid Usmash when knocked up because his aerials just aren't good against it.

his glide is HORRIBLY punishable BTW if you ever need to use it. Oh and as for those high cooldown moves, you talk about how charlie has rock smash and flamethrower if he predicts our approaches (flamethrower is a BAD idea against zelda since it gives us a free lightning kick on you) but you don't consider what happens if you miss. Charlie will not be hitting with everything and some of his more threatening moves are wildly punishable. you talk about how good flamethrower is for stopping sheik... well. if we notice it and DON'T run into it, we can boost smash as soon as you release B and you CANNOT do anything about it. we punish your amazing rock smash the same way. Zelda doesn't have sheik's boost smash but she's not wanting for ways to punish charlie.

my completely honest opinion is:

Squirtle:
55:45 Zelda
55:45 Sheik
60:40 Zelda/Sheik

Ivysaur
55:45 Zelda
60:40 Sheik
60:40 Zelda/Sheik

Charizard:
65:35 Zelda
60:40 Sheik
70:30 Zelda/Sheik

PT on the whole
60:40 Zelda
60:40 Sheik
65:35 Zelda/Sheik


and, no. I'm not underestimating pokemon trainer because I never play against him or anything. I have some experience on the matchup and, I'm sorry, it's one of zelda's easier ones.

I'll be quick since I'm playing. But Squirtle should space to avoid the Usmash. Of course he's going to get hit by it sometimes but its not nearly inpenitrable. And Squirtle's jab absolutely outspeeds Dsmash and Nayru's love. I think Ftilt does too but I'm not sure. As adumbrodeus (sp?) pointed out Ivy's bullet seed is 4 frames with invincibility.

Obviously Ivy is going to do everthing in his power to not recover directly above Zelda. And he can DI so he's in a position to hit Bair. And he can approach with them.

Flamethrower does not give you a free lightning kick unless you hold it down long enough for Zelda to DI into you which I wouldn't do. If Charizard is using Flamethrower or Rock Smash that means you are in range of Rocksmash or flamethrower. Charizard isn't going to use Flamethrower if you are out its range so its not going to be a matter of waiting it out. Similarly he's not using Rock smash out of range either so the rocks will give him protection. Again you're talking about a horrible charizard who is sitting there using flamethrower when you're not near him.

Sheik also doesn't have great damage racking abilities against Charizard. Tilt lock doesn't work at all. (Fly super armor.) Charizard's grab range is dangerous. And flamethrower and rock smash are useful whether you like it or not.

Oh and gliding? Charizard isn't gliding unless he's a) an awful player. Or b) hit with Dsmash at a high percentage.

You say you've played this matchup but a lot of what you say makes it seem like you haven't, or at least haven't played a GOOD PT. Since I like to know what I'm talking about I've been searching on all is Brawl for PT and Zelda mains and have been doing this match from both sides. I'll let you guys know what I find. I suggest you seek some PT mains yourself to get a better idea of the matchup.

 

[GodAtHand]

I have played a PT main before at a tournament and just to throw out another opinion... the only pokemon I think Zelda might not have an advantage against is Squirtle.

The other two where just rather pathetic. But squirtle can be a nuisance and he is rather quick. He still dies early though and is rather gimpable if you know how is recovery works.

 

[Tien2500]

Ok so here is my impression of the matchups after playing them.

First guy I played was a Zelda main. He used Sheik as well but mainly Zelda. We had a series of about 6 or 7 matchups. It was about even but he won more than me by a little bit.

Squirtle- I was able to pester him with Squirtle but really couldn't do much more. I could rack up damage decently but ultimately Zelda's power and priority got the better of me. Being tricky can help but Squirtle is light and its a problem. A few things to note:

Dtilt can combo at low percentages but at higher ones it knocks Squirtle too high.
Squirtle can fair Zelda out of Usmash at the right angle. Fun stuff.
Dair from Squirtle will negate Din's fire.

Overall I'd say this was my worst matchup here. It may just be because I'm not as good as Squirtle as others may be but I'd call this 60:40.

Ivy fared better. His range on several moves outdoes Zelda. Bair can be used as a safe approach. Bullet seed is a threat. Zelda won't be cancelling it out. DSmash wasn't quite as "****" as has been said. If you could get it near the edge on a moderate percentaged Ivysaur it will likely kill him but Zelda won't be able to make the edgeguard from the center. Ivy's Fsmash was more poweful than I realized and will KO Zelda around 100%. Its dangerous. As we've discussed Ivy has invincibility frames so it can hit through several moves. At close range Razor Leaf does better than Din's fire. If Ivy is at the right distance Nayru's love will NOT reflect Razor Leaf. It will simply stop short of Ivy. Thats the way it goes. In air to air combat Ivy does decently. Bair and Fair can work and have the range to keep Zelda from fair/bairing. Either one of them does well from underneath the other. Ivy's Uair is faster but Zelda's is lol powerful. Also if Zelda screws up with Farore's wind's recovery she can be hit with Usmash.

Fsmash and Usmash are still threats and Dtilt is a good setup. Ivy is also gimpable and Din's can harass recovery. Fsmash from Ivy though is very powerful. From my experience this match is about even. 50:50

Charizard did the best but thats most likely because I'm best with him. Rock Smash does work. It eats through shield has duration. Flamethrower can't be reflected. It can harass Zelda's recovery to an extent depending on how she has to recover. Din's fire can be annoying at a distance but Charizards speed diminishes its usefulness. Charizard is very hard to KO unless she can hit lightning kick which isn't as easy as it sounds. I was able to avoid getting hit too many times with this. It needs to be at around 80 to kill from the center of the stage. Usmash and Dsmash from Zelda can be shieldgrabbed if Charizard's shield is fresh but if its diminished he can be shieldstabbed by either.

Something to note is that if Charizard is at 0% he can be hit with several Usmashes in a row. It could be bad so one should try to switch from Ivy from at least 40%. Dtilt works as a setup but he wasn't able to LK out of it.

Dsmash has to hit at a high percentage to force a glide. In most circumstances Charizard can jumb back and use fly to get on the stage.

Zelda can be hard to approach at times though and Charizard will have to take a good deal of damage to get through. His high weight and power helps even things out though.

Overall I'd say either even or 55:45 Zelda.

Next I played a PT main as Zelda. It was a bit laggy and he wasn't very good so I didn't get too much amazingly useful info. A few things though.

Ivy's tilts outrange Dsmash and is quicker than Fsmash but with less priority. Jabs outrange all of Zelda's moves.

Squirtle is less effective again than I anticipated. He could pester well but Again Zelda's strength and priority takes the match.

Rock smash is hard to deal with for me.

Lastly I played a Sheik main. They had about a 1400 ranking on AIB which is definitely above average. Not tournament worthy but definitely good.

I did a lot of damage with Flamethrower. It most definitely works. Rock smash works too. Sheik gets shieldgrabbed somewhat easily. Sheik's air game is definitely better than I gave it credit for and can be a pain for Charizard but getting Charizard in the air was difficult. Sheik definitely has trouble KOing here. Its pretty bad. Needles help rack up damage decently on larger stages but are less effective in smaller ones. Tilt lock doesnt work. Fly beats it out.

I'd call this 55:45 Zard. Possible 60:40.

Squirtle has trouble here. Ftilt lock works well and his aerials are pretty quick. Squirtles air game is better but not quite as much better as I thought. Needles don't really matter much and each character can gimp the other equally well.

I'd say 60:40 Sheik.

Ivy is far batter off than Squirt. Razorleaf is better than needles are and Ivy is very hard to approach. Ftilt lock isn't very safe. Bullet seed is a threat. Fsmash can be BS coundered and DSmash can be too if it is powersheilded. Ivy can combo his n/bair into combos and rack up some good damage.

Of course Ivy is very gimpable. Sheik has trouble getting him off the stage but if he does its a problem for Ivy.

I'd call it an even matchup.

So to sum it up. I'd say.

Zelda
60:40 against Squirtle
50:50 against Ivy
45: 55 against Zard

Overall 55:45 Zelda

Sheik

60:40 Squirtle
40:60 Charizard
50:50 Ivy.

I'll try to play some more people but its hard to find PT and Zelda/sheik mains.

 

[Charizard92]

Uh, Charizard at a 70:30 with both? What the ****? If Charizard doesn't have a 65:35 against any High tier character, what shot do you have?

Edit: tien, thank you for your statistics.

 

[-Mars-]

You Pokemon Trainer guys are amusing. Tilt lock with Sheik works perfectly fine on Charizard and Ivysaur.

You also can't bring your allisbrawl ladder matches into a matchup discussion Tien......playing light *** characters like Sheik and Zelda that also require a ton of precision is not going to give you an accurate assessment of the matchup..........i'm not even one of these people that think WiFi is total garbage, but you can not bring it up when discussing matchups.

Also, I have no clue why we always insist on bringing up Sheik on the Zelda matchup thread when I am sure that there are Zelda-only players who don't care about Sheik. But since we are on the subject of Sheik......her utilt is really good against Squirtle, try it sometime.

 

[Tien2500]

You Pokemon Trainer guys are amusing. Tilt lock with Sheik works perfectly fine on Charizard and Ivysaur.

You also can't bring your allisbrawl ladder matches into a matchup discussion Tien......playing light *** characters like Sheik and Zelda that also require a ton of precision is not going to give you an accurate assessment of the matchup..........i'm not even one of these people that think WiFi is total garbage, but you can not bring it up when discussing matchups.

Also, I have no clue why we always insist on bringing up Sheik on the Zelda matchup thread when I am sure that there are Zelda-only players who don't care about Sheik. But since we are on the subject of Sheik......her utilt is really good against Squirtle, try it sometime.

Fly has superarmor. It goes through the ftilt after 2-3 shots. If you have some sort of knowledge to the contrary then let me know but I've tried it both in online and offline matches and it works. I think Wifi data is the best you're likely going to get here. There are few good PTs and Zeldas so its unlikely to be able to analyze the matchup like that. Its not ideal but its definitely better than theorycraft.

I think it’s better to think of it in terms of character x at the apex of its current metagame vs. character y at the apex of its current metagame. Of course you need to take into account an attacks level of difficulty, like sheiks dacus or Ice climbers 0-death chain grab, but that all falls under the "current metagame" category.

It’s not a matter of evenly matched players facing each other, it is a question of; at the greatest extent of a characters metagame, how will it compare to character y.


And...


nah uh, I have so!

What I meant is that if you have one player who is not good at the game and is whiffing moves right and left then of course he will lose. You can't just assume in a matchup thread that one character will be playing perfectly and one is playing like trash.

 

[Bandit]

Actually, WiFi makes Zelda garbage; even the slightest lag causes many missed sweetspotted aerials. If you are used to it and you have success sweet spotting, then I say more power to ya, but no one else but people who play wifi all the time can pull it off.

In conclusion, any and all WiFi discussion, reference, or theorycraft cannot be used in a match-up discussion. I would say the same conclusion regardless of character match-up for any character... WiFi is not high level smash.

PS-We only assume both players are experts with perfect timing when discussing match-ups as well. Anyone who doesn't take this into consideration is not discussing properly.

 

[-Mars-]

Tien I can tell your an intelligent guy so I won't flame you.

I tilt you twice and then shield.......it is that simple.

 

[Tien2500]

Actually, WiFi makes Zelda garbage; even the slightest lag causes many missed sweetspotted aerials. If you are used to it and you have success sweet spotting, then I say more power to ya, but no one else but people who play wifi all the time can pull it off.

In conclusion, any and all WiFi discussion, reference, or theorycraft cannot be used in a match-up discussion. I would say the same conclusion regardless of character match-up for any character... WiFi is not high level smash.

PS-We only assume both players are experts with perfect timing when discussing match-ups as well. Anyone who doesn't take this into consideration is not discussing properly.

As long as you assume that both of them are perfect. Not that one of them is perfect and one of them suck

 

[Tien2500]

Tien I can tell your an intelligent guy so I won't flame you.

I tilt you twice and then shield.......it is that simple.

Thats not a tilt lock anymore. If it is a tilt lock than that means Charizard can't escape. If you tilted twice and then stopped to shield then I'd have a chance to escape.

 

[-Mars-]

Thats not a tilt lock anymore. If it is a tilt lock than that means Charizard can't escape. If you tilted twice and then stopped to shield then I'd have a chance to escape.

I tilt twice, I shield, you use bullet seed or Fly.......I begin tilting again. The point of the ftilt isn't necessarily to lock...the point of the ftilt is to have it decayed so it can combo into a tipper which kills far earlier than Zeldas usmash.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

or tilt twice then Dsmash...

oh and about the person who was talking about zelda's Dtilt only being good againt squirtle at lower damages since after that it pops him up a little bit... yeah... at that damage, when you get popped up, you can't avoid zelda's Utilt if she buffered it... and it'll kill squirtle at low damages.

 

[Tien2500]

But not you're talking about prediction if you stop to shield and I predict that I could just get away. Its not a combo anymore. I'm not saying that Ftilt is useless or anything but its not going to be useful for the purpose of racking a ton of damage. I'd say that is a significant difference.

 

[-Mars-]

But not you're talking about prediction if you stop to shield and I predict that I could just get away. Its not a combo anymore. I'm not saying that Ftilt is useless or anything but its not going to be useful for the purpose of racking a ton of damage. I'd say that is a significant difference.

It is a combo. If you don't use BS or Fly then you'll be hit with two tilts to a utilt, dsmash, or nair/uair. It is going to rack a lot of damage in any situation.

Also if it is decayed well enough(spammed properly), then you can not use BS or Fly to escape out of it as it is.

Ftilt is still going to **** Ivy and Zard......you can't argue it.

 

[Bandit]

Um Tien, you are highly mistaken. A quick move that can be used repeatedly until the opponent is knocked out of range or the animation is stopped is a lock and a great way to rack up damage. Zelda uses the Dtilt lock to trip people until they DI out or she abuses them with a smash/aerial. Sheik uses Ftilt lock to bring people to tipper range. Both of these moves will be used before to decay them so the combo is much harder to get out of. Anyone who assumes Sheik can't use Ftilt to rack damage has not played a Sheik who knows Sheik.

I don't mean to flame, but you're incorrect in your statement that it can't rack damage.

Also, Marsulas will Ftilt you twice, you perform a move to get away or cause knockback to break the combo. If you get away, you get away. If you attack, it is shielded and you are back in the lock. The shielding is unpunishable unless you land then grab. Sheik won't let that happen.

PS - A lock can be escaped through SDI, but it cannot be punished by the opposition. An infinite is when you cannot escape.

 

[Tien2500]

Um Tien, you are highly mistaken. A quick move that can be used repeatedly until the opponent is knocked out of range or the animation is stopped is a lock and a great way to rack up damage. Zelda uses the Dtilt lock to trip people until they DI out or she abuses them with a smash/aerial. Sheik uses Ftilt lock to bring people to tipper range. Both of these moves will be used before to decay them so the combo is much harder to get out of. Anyone who assumes Sheik can't use Ftilt to rack damage has not played a Sheik who knows Sheik.

I don't mean to flame, but you're incorrect in your statement that it can't rack damage.

Also, Marsulas will Ftilt you twice, you perform a move to get away or cause knockback to break the combo. If you get away, you get away. If you attack, it is shielded and you are back in the lock. The shielding is unpunishable unless you land then grab. Sheik won't let that happen.

I didn't say that Sheik's ftilt lock couldn't rack up damage. It just can't against charizard because he has a particular move that prevents it from being used repeatedly. The meaning of the word lock means you're well... locked into it.

And no Charizard cannot get "*****" (anyone else bothered by the use of the word **** so offhandedly? Lol.) by ftilt. It will do a somewhat decent amount of damage but its really not that decisive of a factor. If you go for a Dsmash against Ivy you should get BSed which would do quite a bit of damage and wouldn't be a good tradeoff. Its a better tradeoff against charizard but its still not going to "****" him. The only one it is really effective against is Squirtle.

Have you actually tested a decayed Ftilt against Zard/Ivy and seen what percentages they can and cannot breat out of it? If so that would be useful info.

 

[-Mars-]

This is probably going to piss Villi off as he thinks we make a lot of things up lol. I'd like to know what he thinks about ftilt vs. Zard and Ivy sinc ehe plays AD a lot.

 

[Tien2500]

Yeah Villi does seem to know PT fairly well.

 

[Villi]

This is probably going to piss Villi off as he thinks we make a lot of things up lol. I'd like to know what he thinks about ftilt vs. Zard and Ivy sinc ehe plays AD a lot.

If I think you're making **** up, I'll let you know. !!!!!!!!!!

You pretty much got it. Sheik is in control when she lands an ftilt. The problem against Charizard is landing ftilts through his shield. It's definitely possible with grab setups, but from the front you get grabbed and trying to cross him up is pretty much never safe.

 

[Charizard92]

Wow this isn't getting anywhere. I'm gonna recommend to the PT boards that we talk about Zelda, and once we get the rest of the guys on it we can talk better.

 

[Villi]

Against solo Zelda I'd say to maximize your time with Squirtle. Ivy and Charizard are both capable of camping Zelda. I used to think Squirtle was fairly easy to handle, but his pressure game can screw Zelda up. I've never tried trading lightning kicks with his fair, though. o.O I still think Zelda could win it solo.

 

[Bandit]

How are they able to camp Zelda? Our projectile has more range than Ivysaur's, and we can walk forward power shielding it if needed since it is a slow projectile. Charizard's flame thrower for camping? I just don't get how Charizard is going to camp. Both of these characters we can out range and stay back forcing them to come at us. I'm not saying running in with a dash attack, but they have to move inside of Zelda's hit boxes to deal consistent damage.

I'm simply looking for an explanation.

 

[Villi]

It's just that PT is forced to switch out due to fatigue and KOs. If PT uses both Ivy and Charizard in the same stock, he gets more time with Squirtle. Not saying Zelda can't get in, but Ivy camps anyway and Charizard needs to space carefully anyhoot.

Edit: Yeah, spaced flame thrower is fairly safe. Being defensive in general against Zelda makes it hard for her. She has so-so approaches against Charizard, but he can try to keep her knocked away with jabs or grabs. Din's fire helps, but it can be blocked at flame thrower range.

 

[Tien2500]

How are they able to camp Zelda? Our projectile has more range than Ivysaur's, and we can walk forward power shielding it if needed since it is a slow projectile. Charizard's flame thrower for camping? I just don't get how Charizard is going to camp. Both of these characters we can out range and stay back forcing them to come at us. I'm not saying running in with a dash attack, but they have to move inside of Zelda's hit boxes to deal consistent damage.

I'm simply looking for an explanation.

Ivy will keep you at mid range. At this range razor leaf beats out Din's fire and can't be reflected properly. So Zelda will have to approach.

Likewise if Zard is at flamethrower range he can hit Zelda but Zelda cannot hit him.

Granted Zelda has a longer projectile range but Zelda can't do much to keep Zard and Ivy at the range she needs to be most effective.

 

[Kataefi]

Surely if Charizard is spacing with flamethrower then a din's is going to punish him when aimed at his rear hurtbox? I've always punished Charizards and, dare I say it, BOWSERS who use flamethrower/breath to space.

Or predict, jump over, and lightning kick, considering the slight lag it takes for them to put the flames down. Or that but jump back and then din's. I think she has options against spaced firebreath.

On the other hand, if Zelda is camping with spaced Fsmashes, Charz will struggle getting inside, considering the speed of both attacks aren't as comparable, because I believe Zelda's is much faster with smaller cooldown in comparison, though compromises in range.

I believe Zelda vs Charizard is around 60-40 in her favour.

Ivysaur has always been tricky and I believe he's the only one who can genuinely outcamp her. I believe she needs to a) get him in the air with whatever - dtilt pop up, usmash, ftilt etc... and attempt to finish him off early by baiting and punishing with uair, or b) save DSmash here and use it near the ledge to gimp him easily.

I reckon this is 55-45 Zelda's advantage because of possible early gimps. If I can ask, how would Ivysaur kill Zelda? How would he get inside her for the kill, even if she is approaching?

Ewe... Squirtle is the hardest. But again, and Villi step in if I say something wrong!, but my experience tells me that he doesn't have good answers to spaced FSmashes either and would have to SH or FH to at least get inside her. All his frontal approaches are stopped with FSmash, and it also pushes him back if he moves with side b, and if he starts short hopping or approaching via the air, she can back and spam jabs and usmashes to defend herself.

I think with squirtle it's 50-50/45-55 not in favour of Zelda.

 

[Tien2500]

Surely if Charizard is spacing with flamethrower then a din's is going to punish him when aimed at his rear hurtbox? I've always punished Charizards and, dare I say it, BOWSERS who use flamethrower/breath to space.

Or predict, jump over, and lightning kick, considering the slight lag it takes for them to put the flames down. Or that but jump back and then din's. I think she has options against spaced firebreath.

On the other hand, if Zelda is camping with spaced Fsmashes, Charz will struggle getting inside, considering the speed of both attacks aren't as comparable, because I believe Zelda's is much faster with smaller cooldown in comparison, though compromises in range.

I believe Zelda vs Charizard is around 60-40 in her favour.

Ivysaur has always been tricky and I believe he's the only one who can genuinely outcamp her. I believe she needs to a) get him in the air with whatever - dtilt pop up, usmash, ftilt etc... and attempt to finish him off early by baiting and punishing with uair, or b) save DSmash here and use it near the ledge to gimp him easily.

I reckon this is 55-45 Zelda's advantage because of possible early gimps. If I can ask, how would Ivysaur kill Zelda? How would he get inside her for the kill, even if she is approaching?

Ewe... Squirtle is the hardest. But again, and Villi step in if I say something wrong!, but my experience tells me that he doesn't have good answers to spaced FSmashes either and would have to SH or FH to at least get inside her. All his frontal approaches are stopped with FSmash, and it also pushes him back if he moves with side b, and if he starts short hopping or approaching via the air, she can back and spam jabs and usmashes to defend herself.

I think with squirtle it's 50-50/45-55 not in favour of Zelda.

If Charizard is spacing properly with flamethrower then Zelda is in range of it so if she tried to use Din's fire she'd be hit. I think you're overestimating the cooldown on flamethrower. I'm pretty sure Zelda cannot full jump over it (short hop will get you hit) and hit Charizard in the back before he can get his shield up. The cooldown on flamethrower really isn't that bad.

Ivy's Fsmash outranges Zelda. He can also kill with Uair, sometimes Vine whip, Fair (which I believe outranges Zelda's Fsmash. Bthrow and Uthrow also can kill. But also you have to consider that Ivysaur doesn't need to kill you. If he could land a grab or any of his moderately powerful move at decent percentages he can always switch to Charizard to go for the kill.

 

[Villi]

But again, and Villi step in if I say something wrong!

lol fine. Don't mention it. >.< It's difficult to maintain good fsmash spacing against the little *******. I don't up smash him much, but it would probably help.

 

[Kataefi]

I think I am actually ^^. But that's why I said you can punish by jumping back and harass with din's. Or attempt to predict and punish. It's not as great as it's made out to be.

How would Charizard go for the kill if he can only space with flamebreath (which can be punishable), and she's defending with spaced fsmashes? He would have to approach somewhat, and that's asking to be lightning kicked if he makes mistakes, or be outsped with far quicker kill moves, not forgetting that Dtilt become ultra useful at closer range because it pretty much guarantees a combo into a sweetspot on tripping.

I just think Charz has to poke and space with his tools, but would seriously struggle getting the kill, whereas Zelda can poke and space with her tools, but her tools happen to be killing moves or kill setups! =O

Ivy is different. His FSmash outranges, but I'm talking about spaced FSmashes. Ivy moving his hurtbox into Zelda's transcendant priority (magic never clashes, it will always at the very least trade), is not good for him (unless it's disjointed). Otherwise his hurt/hitbox will move into Zelda's hitbox, and her FSmash will outprioritise. I can still be in your FSmash range and feel safe. I think this applies to all 3 pokemon.

EDIT:: Villi I only ask you because I totally respect your opinion and you've probably had much more experience against PT than me. I've played you on lagfi and I trust what I read from you lol.

10meatrides >.<

 

[Villi]

I <3 Zelda boards. I figured I'm just getting a hard time for being an *** sometimes. Anyway, I have a hard time in the Squirtle matchup but it could just be that I'm missing something. *shrug* I can find the vids where for IdunnowhatIwasthinking I challenge Squirtle with Zelda and you can tell me what I could do and I'll try to do it. Next time I see him I'm gonna see if I can trade with his fair. and etc.

 

[Kataefi]

I'm not being sarcastic in the slightest I just genuinely put trust in a lot of the stuff you say regarding Zelda/PT.

But moving on anyways... I struggle with squirtle and only squirtle. I literally just spam FSmashes, it's the only move I use against him, and when he decides to approach via air I back away and start jabbing into whatever. Spaced FSmashes are good against him IMO, but he will always find ways to infiltrate.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

yeah about Ivy's Fsmash. it outranges Zelda, but it doesn't have any disjoints.... so, if they both Fsmash, ivy is getting trapped and zelda isn't even getting nicked.

as for Charlie's flamethrower outcamping zelda... ha...hahahah.....haha..hahahaha. the WORST it'd end up for us is throwing out din's and trading.... and that'll have a damage advantage in our favour.

Ivy's razor leaf is frustrating but it isn't that great. there is a very specific range in which it'll actually outcamp her... and even at that range it's easily sheildable... and it's not like ivy's grab is threatening on the sheild with its large amount of cooldown when it misses.

 

[Tien2500]

I think I am actually ^^. But that's why I said you can punish by jumping back and harass with din's. Or attempt to predict and punish. It's not as great as it's made out to be.

How would Charizard go for the kill if he can only space with flamebreath (which can be punishable), and she's defending with spaced fsmashes? He would have to approach somewhat, and that's asking to be lightning kicked if he makes mistakes, or be outsped with far quicker kill moves, not forgetting that Dtilt become ultra useful at closer range because it pretty much guarantees a combo into a sweetspot on tripping.

I just think Charz has to poke and space with his tools, but would seriously struggle getting the kill, whereas Zelda can poke and space with her tools, but her tools happen to be killing moves or kill setups! =O

Ivy is different. His FSmash outranges, but I'm talking about spaced FSmashes. Ivy moving his hurtbox into Zelda's transcendant priority (magic never clashes, it will always at the very least trade), is not good for him (unless it's disjointed). Otherwise his hurt/hitbox will move into Zelda's hitbox, and her FSmash will outprioritise. I can still be in your FSmash range and feel safe. I think this applies to all 3 pokemon.

EDIT:: Villi I only ask you because I totally respect your opinion and you've probably had much more experience against PT than me. I've played you on lagfi and I trust what I read from you lol.

10meatrides >.<

Charizards most common kill move on the ground is Dtilt which is quicker than most of Zeldas attacks from that range. Otherwise Charizard will likely be going for grabs or baiting an attack to punish. I *think* that Dtilt can hit from outside of Fsmashes range. Basically you wait for an opening or bair an attack that is sheildgrabbable and then you go for the kill.

Also Rock smash comes into play here. It can KO if it hasn't been diminished too much and the pressure can help set up for grabs and such.

Ivy has other kill moves as I mentioned. If there is an opening he'll use FSmash. If Zelda makes a mistake she can get hit. (9/10 time I hit an Fsmash its off a mistimed spotdodge) Again as Ivy I like to grab so this will be used either to KO, set up for a KO or switch to Charizard.

 

[Kataefi]

He can't punish an FSmash with a dtilt, he'll get sucked in. Her DSmash will also knock him away.

 

[Tien2500]

He can't punish an FSmash with a dtilt, he'll get sucked in. Her DSmash will also knock him away.

I'm talking about after the attack is over. I'm pretty sure there is enough ending lag to hit if it misses/is dodged. Its also not shield safe if charizard got too far inside.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Again as Ivy I like to grab so this will be used either to KO, set up for a KO or switch to Charizard.

a grabby ivy is not a good idea.

a missed grab has a LOT of cooldown and it pretty much assures that we'll smack you with something... normally Usmash at low damages to put you in a really bad position or Dsmash at high damages to kill.

Fsmash and our own grab will work whenever as well.

to the zelda mains (and adumbrodeus):
what was your take on my matchup rankings earlier? do you agree with them?

 

[Bandit]

I honestly have no disagreements with your rankings.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

to the zelda mains (and adumbrodeus):
what was your take on my matchup rankings earlier? do you agree with them?

squirtle looks ok.

Ivy seems about right.

Charizard looks a bit harsh.

 

[Villi]

I disagree with an advantage over Squirtle, but agree with advantages over Ivy and Charizard.