Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

[Timbers]

Zelda is discussing Lucario

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190698

Please go there to post if you know the matchup a little

QUOTE DUMP

Din's is bad and won't be used unless they're off the stage. Zelda cannot camp Lucario, even with naryu's. Luc has range and AS to prevent Din's spam.

Don't underestimate Zelda. Bair kills you at ridiculously low percents. Naryu's and dsmash set up very plausable spike opportunities (one of the few characters in the game that can force Luc to use ES at such low percents due to trajectory) and her spacing game is easily on par with your own.

Despite Zelda having some amazing killpower, landing them will prove difficult. So you won't be dying under 130 very often (uair is heavily telegraphed, usmash requires you to land like right on top of Zelda, fsmash CAN be DI'd+doesn't kill until 140% or so fresh, Lightning kicks require Zelda to be very close to the opponent to sweetspot, and Luc's overall better aerial game will prove difficult for Zelda to land one of these very early...ftilt/utilt have pretty flimsy range, but will kill you sooner than 130 if you do happen to screw up and somehow land right on top of Zelda...), and Zelda is light. Take advantage of that. A lot of Zelda's moves require the player to fully commit to them, which makes for some easy punishers from AS, fsmash, etc. should Zelda happen to whiff.

And...despite the situational killers she has, her dtilt sets them all up wonderfully. Dtilt pops you up into fair, usmash, utilt, ftilt, fsmash, and at lower percents can trip into dsmash. Easily considered a fundamental move to Zelda. It's really not recommended to stand in front of her long enough for her to get the dtilt off anyways, especially when you should be playing it safe and reaping the aura. Zelda simply has better closerange options than you do.

Okay for starters, even the Zelda mains have come to the consensus that usmash and fsmash are used for racking damage. A fresh usmash will kill Luc at around 115, but in order for Zelda to land this you have to literally be right on top of her. That's right at 115. Any competent player is aware of when certain moves will kill their character, and will be extra careful to avoid it as long as possible. Living until 130 against Zelda is common. Fsmash, even when fresh, is insanely easy to SDI. It should not be held as a killer for Zelda. Higher percents only make it easier to escape.

Utilt is in the same boat as usmash. Difficult to land right at killer percents, as it's range is even less than usmash, and it'll require very tight spacing to get a dtilt to utilt off successfully. I'm not sure what ftilt percentage is for KO, but it is weaker than usmash. I'd place it around 125-130 before you hit blastzones.

Both fair and bair are scary killers, as they're relatively safe given the risk/reward factor, but attempting to use either headon with Luc's lingering, overpowering aerials will definitely not be granting her a lightning kick every stock.

I don't know who gets hit by uair anymore. Zelda's running speed is kind of lol, and her airspeed isn't amazing either. So long as you don't like, land right on top of her, you're fine. It's very predictable.

Dsmash is scary too. At the edge that kills at very low percents (like 110 fresh?) but I've seen this used in Zelda's usual damage racking before, so the chance of it being fresh, or you being caught on the edge to be dsmashed, is not going to be common.

What else did I miss? 11 killmoves is certainly stretching it.

And I'm taking well into account Zelda's killpower. Living until 130 with Luc is not an amazing feat, as Snake usually runs more along the lines of 120-150, MK 140-160 (without gimps), etc.


Lucario vs. Zelda posted in Zelda boards:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199697

OMG THE BIG GIANT CHART OF JEEPY MATCHUPS
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/mootmootmoot/LucarioMatchupChart-1copy-15.png

If she usmashes under you itll poke your shield, which is dumb. lol.

Bthrow won't kill until like 160? You gotta learn to DI these throws. I'm not sure if 160 is accurate, but I've lived well into 140s from a Zelda bthrow.

Everything else I can see as potential killers, but plausable ones are really limited to bair, fair, dsmash, usmash (am I missing one?)...unless Zelda just came back on a fresh stock then throw in a few others as well.

And I'm aware that center stage isn't always where the match takes place, but it's where we should keep the numbers. Lucario can kill as early as 70% on the edge of FD with aurasphere and fsmash, but for sanity's sake it's best just to keep the numbers in the center of the stage. On the ledge, Luc can kill with ftilt, bair, dair, forcepalm, aurasphere, fsmash, dsmash, fthrow (no DI), nair. A lot more moves become "killers" on the ledge, but listing the plausable ones are obviously the most important to this discussion.

Luc can stall with dairs if he feels he's landing in a bad spot. He's not a run of the mill char where baiting the airdodge will be easy.

I'm pretty sure Luc is large enough for Zelda to bair/fair oos too, thanks for bringing that up.

As for her aerial DI, she's like the same as Lucario. Luc does have trouble with baiting airdodges, as his ability to pursue characters can be difficult (Snake, DDD, Ike are really the only characters that come to mind for effective airdodge baiting, and half of that is due to slow air games), and Luc's midair jump is pretty amazing as well..whereas Zelda's is so-so.

I won't doubt you, as I don't play Zelda, just saying that from my experience, Luc deals with any sort of airdodge baiting much more well than most, thanks to his stalling. It's not as effective as Fox's shinestall, but it gets the job done.

Oh and I'm not talking that she's bad at pursuing a character, just landing a relatively slow move (uair) isn't going to be a common thing with Zelda.

DDD utilt has much more range than Zelda's utilt.

I dunno, I'm killed by usmash, dsmash, and lightning kicks the most often. I don't remember dying to utilt in a long time lol.

protip: good lucarios don't roll into their opponents.

The only way you'll be getting the utilt off successfully is out of a successful dtilt to pop them up into Zelda.

Din's is way too laggy for her to successfully camp you with both dins and naryus. She can fake you out and cancel dins to naryus an oncoming aurasphere, but her reflector is too laggy to start up another dins before youve already shielded the reflected AS.

You really want to make Zelda approach though. her oos options and overall defensive game is much much better than her approach options.

I never thought of DTing farores, but I'm willing to bet that she can throw a shield up before DT connects.

Regarding farores being used offensively, if you're able to powershield the farores then you can dsmash her before she can react. If you don't PS it then simply grabbing her is fine too.

G-beast I'm not sure where you're pulling this information.

Zelda's fair and bair are the same range as Luc's fair. The sweetspot in both of those has less range than fair.

Din's won't be used unless you're coming back to the stage, where she can force you into compromising positions.

Lylat ***** Zelda's recovery, forcing her to recover onto the stage in some situations. Lylat platforms also let her abuse her defenses more than usual, so it's a tossup. I'd say it's one of her worse stages, but Luc isn't very good on Lylat either.

Ideal stage for Luc against Zelda would be Japes, however the Zeldas I have played in a tourney setting have enjoyed banning this stage against me. Water ***** her recovery and high ceiling is nice for you. I'm sure you could do well on Mansion and Frigate too.

And that's why I believe the matchup to be in Luc's favor, and other believes it to be an even steeper advantage lol.

Zelda has a less than appealing approach game, while Luc forces her approach and brickwalls her exceptionally well.

When your only safe approach is a walking powershield, it's pretty much GGs to whoever character is forced to approach like that.

Zelda's just forcing Luc into a bad position when she Din's his recovery. he still has his midair and airdodge and all that fun stuff.

Zelda's just as vulnerable in her farore's startup than Lucario. Aurasphere can really trash her offstage, as naryu's is way too laggy to use if she's already wasted her midair.

AS is the sole reason that Zelda is forced to approach in this match. It's a pretty big deal.

Also Zelda can't airdodge out of her farore's startup either, and farore's startup is much longer than Luc's ES startup.

I beg to differ. Zelda is the one that is forced to react. Whether the auraspheres hit her or not she is still being controlled by Lucario's actions, not the other way around. Even if no one is getting hit, Lucario is still controlling Zelda's movement. Zelda cannot retaliate with her own projectile due to it's nature.

[In regards to some Zelda claiming that Zelda was unpunishable when landing onstage with farores] Even if Zelda can land on the stage, she is still vulnerable to Lucario's grabs. At this point in time I think it's an ideal example for me to bring up what you said several posts ago, saying how Din's can harass Luc's recovery with 10%, because between Luc's pummels and throws, he'll rack up 15% easily for a landing on the stage.



It's not a matter of speed. Din's speed is actually fine given it's destructive hitbox and damage. The fact that the hitbox goes dead whenever Zelda is hit (unless it hits the ground or has reached it's maximum length) is what makes it less than appealing. Zelda is stuck in both heavy startup and afterlag from the move as well, which makes punishment all too easy. It's priority is also terrible.

Actually 1 =P

Zelda has a lot of tricks up her sleeve to make a comeback in the match due to Luc's weak aura at lower percents. Like a lot of those games ended with me low % last stock, but I was still having to treat it as I was in kill percents, considering all it would take was one usmash to put me in range to be killed by uair or bair.

It's not a very realistic happening, but it can happen. Behind Lucario, I'd have to place either Zelda or DK as a character known for their comeback potential.

55:45 or 60:40 I'd say.

tl;dr lol.

if any pour soul actually bothered reading that, don't take the numbers into consideration. Those quotes are several months old and I was guessing even then, and that was without momentum cancelling, I'm just too lazy to reword anything.

 

[Charizard92]

Ok, a little basic understanding of utility.

1. If you have the OPTION to do something, having the option is always better then not having the option. The reason, you may (albiet in some cases very rarely) come up with a situation where extercising that option is useful. Take for example, switching from melee Sheik to the vastly inferior melee Zelda, bad choice in every circumstance, right? Wrong, even though Zelda was inferior to Sheik in almost every situation including every match-up, there were some times where Zelda's recovery was useful. Other such isolated cases occur.


2. If you are forced to do something, it may or may not be worse depending on the situation. With the forced switches, in some match-ups squirtle might be better, in some charizard. So losing a stock and being forced to switch to switch, might provide a better match-up, or it might not, depends entirely on the character.


So, choice = always good. No choice = possibly good or bad, depending on the outcome.


From there, we have overhead, in other words stuff applied to the character as a whole that isn't specific to the individual pokemon, but makes them less effective as a whole (and yes, we could have negative overhead, though it would be called something else). This reduces the overall effectiveness of the character in comparison to it's parts. Overhead has a greater or lesser effect depending on the match-up, and may overwhelm the advantages of a choice.

1. Stamina. Nuff said. Stamina noticably reduces the power of the PT overall, reducing the effectiveness of the characters as a group.


From there, when we have a choice (which for PT is when stock lost has occured), we have choice barriers. In other words, stuff that makes the choice itself less effective. This cannot be a net disadvantage to the character, but instead makes the choice offer less advantages.

1. Transform time, as you know, there's a lot of it. This is shared by Zelda.

2. Limits on transforming, PT can only transform on the ground. The fact that this precludes PT from being able to change a lot more safely (Zelda has rising transform for example), means that part of the bite of transform time is reduced for Zelda, but not for PT.

3. Multiple pokemon. The simple fact that you have to change again and take the transform time barrier again if the pokemon you need isn't next is a bad thing. Unlike most in this category, this also most the "forced switch" more of a factor when it provides a disadvantage.

4. The pokemon's movesets aren't all that complimentary in practice. Yeah, the problem is a lot of what the pokemon can do is either redundant, or would be great... if the attributes were in the same character. There's not really a concrete percentage that you can stick with one character then switch to another and generally get an advantage for it. The closest you're got is squirtle and Charizard, because Squirtle can rack, and Charizard can kill, but Squirtle isn't particularly good at it because he lacks the range in spite of the airspeed. Ivysaur is the best killer, but can't really get a move in, and at almost all percents charizard is superior to both because of his spacing abilities. Granted, there are exceptions, but generally safe range>racking capabilities.



So, while there might theoretically be a match-up where in spite of all this overhead, the sum of PT does better then it's parts, but a very signifigant advantage would have to be there for PT to be better as a whole then the best of the individual pokemon, thus making it worth switching. Futhermore, since the PT has mechanics in place that handicap just using the best, (stamina, forced switch), you're looking at a situation where the vast majority of the time PT is worse the sum of it's parts.

I haven't analyzed all PT's match-ups so in a few of them, there may be an advantage, but definately not here.


Zelda on the other hand, always has the choice, and choice cannot provide a disadvantage, only an advantage. Add that to a lack of overall character overhead, and ways to limit choice barriers and you're looking at a situation where Zelda/Sheik is always better then Zelda or Sheik. Granted in some match-ups the difference is utterly insignifigant compared to using one or the other. In others it might be massive. But the overall fact is, there's always an advantage to having a choice.

1: Yeah, the Pokemon kinda have a similar relationship.

2: Well, to be fair, most good PT's do manage to get away with only using two Pokemon.

1: We all know stamina

1: The transformation time actually varies with each of PT's Pokemon, with Charizard>Squirtle being the longest and Ivysaur >Charizard the shortest, even dwarfing your transformation times.

2: This really kicks in with Charizard to Squirtle, but is more manageable elsewhere

3: Again, Pokemon mainers typically manage to get around this by using only two. This typically works, unless the cycle is backwards (ex Wolf, as Squirtle is a slight adv. and Ivy is a dis).

4: To be fair, Squirtle and Ivysaur can do that. Squirtle is practically all air game, and has an easy time racking up damage. Unfortunately, Squirtle can't KO well. Ivysaur is the inverse (Uair, 'nuff said), but lacks moves to rack up damage (sans bullet seed). Charizard can do everything on his own. He is also considered the least affected by fatigue due to his high power and high weight. Some PT mainers even allow Charizard to get fatigue (I don't).

On terms of Compliment, Squirtle racks up, Ivysaur kills, and Charizard does both.
PT is not worse than his separate parts, but conversely, he isn't better either.

 

[Kataefi]

What's everyone agreeing on numbers for each pokemon and also PT as a whole for Zelda only?

My take on it IMO:

50-50 (I would even go as far as 45-55) Zelda vs Squirtle
55-45 Zelda vs Ivy
60-40 Zelda vs Charz (sorry =( )

In terms of spacing against Charz, I feel FSmash is a great tool to work with. It doesn't necessary outrange, but it pokes his territory really well.

I think overall it's just a slight advantage 55-45 / 60-40 for Zelda. What does everyone else think of this?

 

[adumbrodeus]

1: Yeah, the Pokemon kinda have a similar relationship.

That was sort of the point. Generally speaking, Charizard will be your superior option period.

2: Well, to be fair, most good PT's do manage to get away with only using two Pokemon.

Again, true, but you have to take either loss of invincibility/vulnerability to make the change.

1: We all know stamina

Of course you do, I was noting it to be complete, as you can see, this is a sum total understanding of PT and why he's worse then the sum of his parts in general.

1: The transformation time actually varies with each of PT's Pokemon, with Charizard>Squirtle being the longest and Ivysaur >Charizard the shortest, even dwarfing your transformation times.

Yes, the overhead does vary, but Zelda's additional options make her's far safer.

2: This really kicks in with Charizard to Squirtle, but is more manageable elsewhere

It varies from match-up to match-up. Actually, in this match-up it's especially noticeable because against either Zelda or Sheik, you have one good choice, so she switches and you might have to make two switches to not be at a disadvantage.

3: Again, Pokemon mainers typically manage to get around this by using only two. This typically works, unless the cycle is backwards (ex Wolf, as Squirtle is a slight adv. and Ivy is a dis).

Obviously, but if you have one optimal pokemon, and you're forced to switch off said pokemon, that a disadvantage, no?

It's true but again, you're talking about a decrease in the overhead, not eliminating it conceptually.

4: To be fair, Squirtle and Ivysaur can do that. Squirtle is practically all air game, and has an easy time racking up damage. Unfortunately, Squirtle can't KO well. Ivysaur is the inverse (Uair, 'nuff said), but lacks moves to rack up damage (sans bullet seed). Charizard can do everything on his own. He is also considered the least affected by fatigue due to his high power and high weight. Some PT mainers even allow Charizard to get fatigue (I don't).

Ok, understand that this was speaking in general terms, in specific match-ups this can vary and it can be usable, but in general... it's just better to use the individual best pokemon, you gain no advantage worth the switch overhead... that is if you could...

So here's the difference, Sheik, while she does have a good number of disadvantages, she's a relatively balanced character, leaving with few hard counters, so it is generally advantageous to rack with her, whereas with squirtle, there are a lot of characters that can wall him.

Killing with Ivysaur... even worse, if you get the chance... yes, but ivysaur's kill moves are extremely unsafe because they are so telegraphed. Seriously, I can put down my controller, go to starbucks, get a drink, read a few chapters in my urban politics textbook, come back, and then spotdodge in the time between when I can see the up-smash is being used and when the hitbox comes out. [/obvious hyperbole]

(btw, it's a lot better in Brawl+, comboing and techchasing with up-smash is amazing)

On terms of Compliment, Squirtle racks up, Ivysaur kills, and Charizard does both.
PT is not worse than his separate parts, but conversely, he isn't better either.

On average, the other two weigh charizard down, in individual match-ups, the other two pokemon weigh down your best, that's just how the forced switched works. With stamina at your back, a very limited switch, and possible required extra switching, to be useful, you'd need at two pokemon to be able to about as well, and for totally separate damage totals for you to draw any reasonable benefit from using both, plus to go through the third.

So, as a general rule, no PT is worse then the sum of his parts, though again this is match-up dependant.

What's everyone agreeing on numbers for each pokemon and also PT as a whole for Zelda only?

My take on it IMO:

50-50 (I would even go as far as 45-55) Zelda vs Squirtle
55-45 Zelda vs Ivy
60-40 Zelda vs Charz (sorry =( )

In terms of spacing against Charz, I feel FSmash is a great tool to work with. It doesn't necessary outrange, but it pokes his territory really well.

I think overall it's just a slight advantage 55-45 / 60-40 for Zelda. What does everyone else think of this?

Normally a nice safe move but not in this match-up. I'm not sure if ftilt misses the hitbox but I'm pretty sure it does. Dtilt does rather obviously, and flamethrower can also punish it.


As for overall, basically I think part of the problem is this match-up doesn't happen enough at the top of the metagame, but I'm waiting for a great Zelda with the reaction time I'm talking about who loves brickwalling to face a great squirtle, and a great Charizard who has the same basic qualifacations but is more of a spacer (think also plays or formerly played marth) to face a great Zelda. If the players in question are about evenly skilled I think this will illustrate my points, because really these match-ups are only evident at the highest levels of play.


Eh, but whatever, outvoted for now, but I think that as Zelda players and PT players improve the consensus on this match-up will reverse.

 

[Kataefi]

I should really explain my reasoning more on charz ^^ And I've tested everything I say here.

On Charizard

Fsmash significantly outranges his dtilt and ftilt. It destroys his jab and his own fsmash, and it trades with his flamebreath. She takes 4% damage whilst he takes 13%.

Zelda's FSmash - she leans back, then leans forward, and anything that isn't a sword or a golf club gets sucked into her hitbox. Charz is completely outprioritised unfortunately. Her hitbox even goes through his Fair when spaced, and at worst she takes 2% damage and he takes 13%.

He cannot reliably space with a quick flame breath. This is because of din's. He is punishable with din's when using flamebreath. Din's doesn't even have to hit his body. It explodes his flamebreath hitboxes and has a hitbox of its own that hits him, dealing 9% damage. Din's also beats out his Fair, but not his nair. In this situation it's more damaging to strike with USmash, which outprioritises every aerial approach he has.

Her dtilt has a guaranteed lightning kick setup from trip. *This is significant*. This finishes him off at ridiculously early percents if you save bair because he doesn't start going aerial from the hit until 90ish percent, so she can finish him off before these percents and it's guaranteed from a dtilt. It also outspeeds his own dtilt somewhat, and clanks with hers if they hit. During continuous clanking, her dtilt beats his out. Her dtilt outspeeds all of his ground moveset except his jab.

He's unfortunately tall enough to be hit by both bair and fair out of shield. These punishments are significant and not particularly hard to land on him. I don't even think we ever factor these sorts of punishments into any of her matchups to be honest. Her Bair sweetspot can go through his fair. As can fair, but this is significantly harder. She SDI towards him if she's caught in flamebreath and sweetspot him from his cooldown.

Her Dair can go through his recovery. DSmash from ledge sets this up quite nicely - it will either kill him, give her an opportunity to edgehog, or plain spike him. If he's gliding, Utilt, USmash, and Uair outprioritse his glide attack.

I know charz is a good character, but I believe he has more of a chance with Sheik alone than he does with Zelda alone - I've tested all this information out by the way, and I'm firmly in my shoes that she has at the very least a slight advantage on him. If we're pushing it, 50:50 at worst, otherwise I believe realistically it's around 60:40.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I'm with Katefi on this one.

Charizard has a lot working against him, but he's probably the best of the 3 pokes because, if he can space well, he's got a lot of zoning options that he can compliment with high killing power.

The problem for him lies in the fact that Zelda completely takes advantage of all of his shortcomings so he NEEDS to keep her off of him or he's getting wrecked.

So, I mean, he's got zoning tools, but they really don't work that well against zelda. Her Fsmash outranges practically everything on the ground, ur usmash beats out ALL of his aerials and Din's wrecks his flame breath.

I can't see this matchup being in charlies advantage... especially since she can lighting kick him really easily if he's not in a position to sheildgrab.

I think he's the EASIEST poke to face for zelda and damage wracking with sheik just makes it worse.

with at least 55:45s on both the other pokes and 60:40 on charizard, there's no way it's less than a 60:40 overall. Add sheik and it's just ugly

 

[adumbrodeus]

I should really explain my reasoning more on charz ^^ And I've tested everything I say here.

On Charizard

Fsmash significantly outranges his dtilt and ftilt. It destroys his jab and his own fsmash, and it trades with his flamebreath. She takes 4% damage whilst he takes 13%.

Zelda's FSmash - she leans back, then leans forward, and anything that isn't a sword or a golf club gets sucked into her hitbox. Charz is completely outprioritised unfortunately. Her hitbox even goes through his Fair when spaced, and at worst she takes 2% damage and he takes 13%.

He cannot reliably space with a quick flame breath. This is because of din's. He is punishable with din's when using flamebreath. Din's doesn't even have to hit his body. It explodes his flamebreath hitboxes and has a hitbox of its own that hits him, dealing 9% damage. Din's also beats out his Fair, but not his nair. In this situation it's more damaging to strike with USmash, which outprioritises every aerial approach he has.

The point I was making with all this is that f-smash isn't safe, period.

The fact that f-smash outranges both was know, sure it's a factor, but it's not a major factor if it's not safe.

Basically, if it was safe, Zelda could keep Charizard between her f-smash and his dtilt and f-tilt.

But yeah, Charizard should ONLY use flamebreath to punish f-smash (and other situational uses).


In regards to ftilt though, by beat, I meant when used together, charizard's hurtbox does change significantly when he uses it, though I'm not sure f-smash does or doesn't end up clipping it).

Her dtilt has a guaranteed lightning kick setup from trip. *This is significant*. This finishes him off at ridiculously early percents if you save bair because he doesn't start going aerial from the hit until 90ish percent, so she can finish him off before these percents and it's guaranteed from a dtilt. It also outspeeds his own dtilt somewhat, and clanks with hers if they hit. During continuous clanking, her dtilt beats his out. Her dtilt outspeeds all of his ground moveset except his jab.

It is quite significant, as I said this match-up is one of those "both characters can do horrible horrible things to each other" match-ups (though Charizard's is much more "marth-like", as opposed to Zelda's dramatic "kill at 90%").

The thing is, Charizard has to make a significant mistake to end up at that spacing, and Zelda has a deadzone outside of this spacing, because even f-smash is punishable.

 

[Kataefi]

It'll go like this then regarding spacing:

- Charizard is attempting to space with Dtilts and Ftilts.
- Zelda realises this, and starts poking with Fsmash, because that does outrange and does outprioritise both attacks.
- Charizard will realise this and begin using flame breath.
- Zelda suddenly clocks on, and trades flamebreath with the tip of her FSmash. She takes 4%, he takes 13%.
- But then Zelda suddenly realises, she can start baiting flame breath, and punishing with Din's, taking 0% and giving him 9%, because he doesn't have low enough cooldown to block the din's.
- Charizard suddenly ****s a brick.

Charizard's fair isn't safe on Zelda. Her Fsmash hits him out of it when spaced, and she'll take 2% and he'll take 13%. What other moves does Charz have? Nair? Bair? All punishable again with spaced Fsmashes and USmashes unfortunately.

Zelda wins the spacing battle... she has a strong upper hand. Charz has a much better time against Zelda outspeeding her with his jab and grab game than he does trying to space against her with flame breath. If she's misspacing, throw in those ftilts and dtilts by all means, but otherwise they're not reaching her.

What makes this worse? When charizard gets tired, his body becomes more horizontal. Zelda's FSmash has even more range now than it did before. Couple that with the ease of hitting lightning kicks, and she completely negates his weight and survavibility at 90% which is a big deal.

What are his killers? Dtilt? Ftilt? He's using these to space against her. Flame breath isn't racking up damage nearly half the rate she'll be racking up damage on him. Consequently... his tilts stale, whereas suddenly Zelda gets to pick one of 8 more kill moves out of hat to finish him off with. I'm blowing this all out of proportion, I'm sure charz has other kill moves, but Zelda's are more usable and guaranteed from a frame 5 attack.

The only advantage Charz have is punishing her recovery. But she has stronger abilities to punish his recovery than vice versa. Dair / Up + b tradeoff? Yes please. USmash / Utilt / Uair on his recovery - I'll take that anyday. DSmash on ledge to immediately put him in critical positions... she just sets up the kill so wonderfully against him than she does against Ivysaur and Squirtle.

 

[MrEh]

Charizard's grab is balls. That's all that needs to be said.

 

[adumbrodeus]

It'll go like this then regarding spacing:

- Charizard is attempting to space with Dtilts and Ftilts.
- Zelda realises this, and starts poking with Fsmash, because that does outrange and does outprioritise both attacks.

Ok, I tested this a while ago, so I might be mis-remembering, but as I remember dtilt goes UNDER f-smash. The hitboxes never interact so the priority issue never comes into play. Pretty sure ftilt can do the same thing because they both hit quite low.

- Charizard will realise this and begin using flame breath.
- Zelda suddenly clocks on, and trades flamebreath with the tip of her FSmash. She takes 4%, he takes 13%.
- But then Zelda suddenly realises, she can start baiting flame breath, and punishing with Din's, taking 0% and giving him 9%, because he doesn't have low enough cooldown to block the din's.
- Charizard suddenly ****s a brick.

flamebreath flat outranges f-smash, he doesn't need to trade.

Furthermore, if he doesn't do it except on reaction (which is what I'm suggesting) you can't bait it period.

Charizard's fair isn't safe on Zelda. Her Fsmash hits him out of it when spaced, and she'll take 2% and he'll take 13%. What other moves does Charz have? Nair? Bair? All punishable again with spaced Fsmashes and USmashes unfortunately.

Yes, both are in his zone.

Zelda wins the spacing battle... she has a strong upper hand. Charz has a much better time against Zelda outspeeding her with his jab and grab game than he does trying to space against her with flame breath. If she's misspacing, throw in those ftilts and dtilts by all means, but otherwise they're not reaching her.

Flame breath a spacing move?! A punisher, that's what I suggested.

Really, f-smash is all that could keep Charizard out of his dtilt/ftilt spacing.

F-smash is 16 frames of start-up, enough time to react and do a short-hopped retreating flame breath. That makes the move too unsafe to just toss out in this match-up, so she doesn't have anything to keep him from getting into his optimal spacing, aka dtilt and ftilt.

What makes this worse? When charizard gets tired, his body becomes more horizontal. Zelda's FSmash has even more range now than it did before. Couple that with the ease of hitting lightning kicks, and she completely negates his weight and survavibility at 90% which is a big deal.

Since it's generally accepted that optimal behavior for PT is switching when stamina rears it's ugly head, that would be more of a PT overall weakness, as opposed to the individual match-up, it's effects should not be significant.

What are his killers? Dtilt? Ftilt? He's using these to space against her. Flame breath isn't racking up damage nearly half the rate she'll be racking up damage on him. Consequently... his tilts stale, whereas suddenly Zelda gets to pick one of 8 more kill moves out of hat to finish him off with. I'm blowing this all out of proportion, I'm sure charz has other kill moves, but Zelda's are more usable and guaranteed from a frame 5 attack.

When you're poking in this style, it forces an approach. Charizard has nasty punishers and Zelda doesn't approach well.

The only advantage Charz have is punishing her recovery. But she has stronger abilities to punish his recovery than vice versa. Dair / Up + b tradeoff? Yes please. USmash / Utilt / Uair on his recovery - I'll take that anyday. DSmash on ledge to immediately put him in critical positions... she just sets up the kill so wonderfully against him than she does against Ivysaur and Squirtle.

Yes, she can punish his recovery well, but it's more situational.

 

[Kataefi]

@his tilts.

His dtilt hurtbox gets hit by the tipper without Zelda getting punished. Applies with his ftilt also. Both are not disjointed, and both are outranged by a disjointed attack that happens to have transcendal priority - aka's Zelda's sparkly Fsmash. This is a big annoyance for him regarding spacing.

@his flamebreath

Look at it from this way... if we're looking at it purely from a spacing standpoint, charizard has one move that is reliably going to outrange zelda. Zelda has 2 moves that are reliably going to outrange charizard. Who is more predictable?

Zelda has a better chance to bait a reaction here - that's exactly what she can do that charizard cannot do. If Zelda mindlessly starts airdodging into spaced fsmashes, and charizard conditions himself to punish with flamebreaths, what happens when zelda starts airdodging into empty backward short hops? --> charizard flamethrowers, hits nothing, and bam!, gets a din's to the face.

Now all of a sudden, charizard is put into a position of 'omg what is she going to do?' Flamebreath suddenly becomes punishable. Charz' only form of punishment from Zelda's tipper range is a flamebreath. Zelda controls whether she allows herself to get punished or not. He can't mindlessly close in with tilts with a possible fear of of getting outranged, and he knows that Zelda has a projectile that has the final say in the spacing aspect of this matchup.

And that's without factoring 'on reaction'. Zelda's Fsmash has quick startup and low cooldown... flame breath has quick startup (whether it's quicker than her Fsmash I don't know), but it's cooldown is punishable. She has time to throw out FSmash and shield without getting punished. Charizard doesn't have the luxury of this time to avoid din's. This assuming both characters do things right... which is never the case.

Now when you add this to the fact she punishes both his recoveries better than he punishes her's, puts him in these tricky recoveries faster than he does her with practically the majority of her moveset, she doesn't fatigue whilst he loses power, she gets guaranteed lightning kicks from a frame 5 attack and has a tilt attack that's faster than his potent damage rackers and will win the clank battle, then I believe she's advantaged.

The last paragraphs a bit OTT but it gets the point across

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

Whew, Zelda vs PT looks exhausted. How bout we move on to a more threatening Pokemon (sry PT mains), Lucario? I personally am looking forward to this, as my play vs Luc has been lacking lately.

 

[Bandit]

Kat, I like your match-up numbers, but I would put Ivysaur at least at 60-40 Zelda. Her Dsmash alone makes him incredibly gimpable not to mention all the fire elemental she possesses which hurts him extra.

50-50 Squirtle
60-40 (I think 65-35 but not trying to cause an uproar) Ivysaur
60-40 Charizard

Overall vs PT: 60-40

On to Lucario!! (please for the love of all that is Holy)

 

[JigglyZelda003]

are we still on PT are did we move to Lucario, all i see is textwalls @.@

 

[Bandit]

We are suppose to move on to Lucario I believe. I think we are just waiting for someone to step up and write what they think.

I'll start by throwing a few ideas out there:
- His Dair beats Zelda's USmash
- Aura balls are canceled by Dtilt and Dins up to 100%, then he hits God mode (this is based on my own experience only) and they can only be shielded or reflected
- His sudo-combo of jab jab forward B is broken up by Naryu's
- Lucario spaces really well with a plus roll (along with other things, but his ability to roll well and often unpunished can't be overlooked)
- He can be gimped since his UpB won't hurt if you are on the ledge and he is punishable during its startup

This is just to get the ball rolling. All in all, I would say 45-55 Lucario's favor. Once he gets up in percentage, he just gets really hard to put away.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Dtilt can cancel aura balls up to god mode? is that for any size or just quickies? is there a way to make him come to use or is it ladies first?

i have some exp but only against a not so good player in biased FFAs so that doesn't count for much, stupid rolling....

 

[Bandit]

I am pretty sure fully charged under 100% dins will cancel, but I am not totally sure on Dtilt. I'd have to test it.

 

[Villi]

If an attack does within 10 damage of an auraball (decay isn't a factor), it will cancel it.

 

[Kataefi]

I must be going crazy.

I'm shooting auraspheres at Zelda right now and getting her to dtilt and Lucario's at 135% and she's still cancelling those auraspheres everytime. She cancels them from behind her body as well.

This is... great!

Her dtilt completely negates the use of his camp. I'm surprised =O

Same for pit as well. Her dtilt totally cancels out arrows. Just tested (thought you guys would want to know xD )

EDIT:: and so do fairs/ bairs / dairs =O

 

[adumbrodeus]

@his tilts.

His dtilt hurtbox gets hit by the tipper without Zelda getting punished. Applies with his ftilt also. Both are not disjointed, and both are outranged by a disjointed attack that happens to have transcendal priority - aka's Zelda's sparkly Fsmash. This is a big annoyance for him regarding spacing.

You tested this?


Actually, really you've answered my objection here, if f-smash does beat dtilt out like that it messes with Charizard's spacing options.

Granted that only makes it tighter, and I'm not sure how much of an effect it has practically, I'll get back to you on that...

@his flamebreath

stuff

Again, you're missing the point, charizard has no reason to use flamebreath against Zelda in those circumstances except as a reaction to f-smash's actual start-up time.

It's 16 frames, top of the metagame reaction is about 7 frames (mine is 9 now btw), so at the top of the metagame that's enough time to drop the controller, grab a cup of cofee, read a book, come back, then do a retreating short-hop and use flamethrower.

[/obvious hyperbole]


Baiting can only happen if there's prediction involved and you make them mis-predict, that can't happen if you do it as a reaction to the start-up frames to something.


Lucario:

I must be going crazy.

I'm shooting auraspheres at Zelda right now and getting her to dtilt and Lucario's at 135% and she's still cancelling those auraspheres everytime. She cancels them from behind her body as well.

This is... great!

Her dtilt completely negates the use of his camp. I'm surprised =O

Same for pit as well. Her dtilt totally cancels out arrows. Just tested (thought you guys would want to know xD )

EDIT:: and so do fairs/ bairs / dairs =O

D*mn, that's awesomely useful.

*adds to little black book of Zelda secrets*

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

for charizard vs. zelda. he has a tougher time spacing. it's that simple. Zelda is just flat out better and if things aren't timed and placed right, they aren't getting through zelda's sparkly defenses. Charizard is FAR more punishable than zelda and zelda has scarier punishing options.

Like I said. I lick my lips at the chance to pummel a charizard with either of my lady's personas. he's just... well... he's like a giant sandbag. I know he can do stuff but, honestly, PT is ranked low for a reason. We can do more to him than he can to us and neither of his other two pokemon options are much scarier. Ivysaur is much harder for us to get inside and squirtle has a better chance for slipping through our defenses and is harder to hit, but both of them are so easy to kill.

60:40 Zelda's advantage is an absolute minimum for this matchup. And that's without shiek. As mentioned, with sheik, it's utter ****.

 

[Kataefi]

^^ I guess we'll agree to disagree about this. But his flamethrower, for it to come out, is roughly 16 frames, perhaps larger from what I've tested. He isn't punishing her FSmash's startup with this.

The tilt thing has been tested. Her FSmash outranges and sucks him in =( poor charz. It even beats out fair.

Dtilt is amazing =D Can we safely assume that Lucario can't spam us now?

EDIT:: It must have something to do with dtilt's decay. Because I got hit with a sphere at 120% when dtilt was fully decayed, but then came up and got rid of the sphere with a fresh dtilt.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

^^ I guess we'll agree to disagree about this. But his flamethrower, for it to come out, is roughly 16 frames, perhaps larger from what I've tested. He isn't punishing her FSmash's startup with this.

The tilt thing has been tested. Her FSmash outranges and sucks him in =( poor charz. It even beats out fair.

Dtilt is amazing =D Can we safely assume that Lucario can't spam us now?

it depends on how tight the timing needs to be.

Dtilt is one of the few moves that extends zelda's hurbox, so it's always risky when the enemy is just out of range because you might suddenly find yourself in range for him to smack you with one of his disjoints if you prematurely tilt.

I still think that nayru's love does a hell of a lot against his aurasphere so this is just a nice addition to our defensive repertoir

 

[Kataefi]

That's true. But I suppose on a quick reaction... it's best to dtilt. The cooldown is less risky and less susceptible to baits.

Dtilt isn't 100% foolproof though... it's decay seems to have an effect on the aurasphere

 

[adumbrodeus]

for charizard vs. zelda. he has a tougher time spacing. it's that simple. Zelda is just flat out better and if things aren't timed and placed right, they aren't getting through zelda's sparkly defenses. Charizard is FAR more punishable than zelda and zelda has scarier punishing options.

Like I said. I lick my lips at the chance to pummel a charizard with either of my lady's personas. he's just... well... he's like a giant sandbag. I know he can do stuff but, honestly, PT is ranked low for a reason. We can do more to him than he can to us and neither of his other two pokemon options are much scarier. Ivysaur is much harder for us to get inside and squirtle has a better chance for slipping through our defenses and is harder to hit, but both of them are so easy to kill.

60:40 Zelda's advantage is an absolute minimum for this matchup. And that's without shiek. As mentioned, with sheik, it's utter ****.

Actually Charizard on his own is a pretty good character, by far the best of the bunch, he's got good range and priority, and is fast and powerful. His tilts have nearly Marth's range.


But Again, I see reason to re-evalute the match-up with a bit of testing, if you're correct it's not because Charizard is bad, it's because Zelda counters him.

^^ I guess we'll agree to disagree about this. But his flamethrower, for it to come out, is roughly 16 frames, perhaps larger from what I've tested. He isn't punishing her FSmash's startup with this.

Not expecting it to, again, at the edge of f-smash range, shorthop back, flamethrower. It'll start up when Zelda is still in f-smash animation.

The tilt thing has been tested. Her FSmash outranges and sucks him in =( poor charz. It even beats out fair.

A bit of a pattern, but eh must've missed this for him, I lurk enough it's odd.

I remember knocking Zelda out've f-smash with dtilt a while back during testing, but that's why I check, I'll see what the window is.

Dtilt is amazing =D Can we safely assume that Lucario can't spam us now?

And this is news to you, why? Dtilt's always been one of my favorite moves.

EDIT:: It must have something to do with dtilt's decay. Because I got with a sphere at 120% when dtilt was fully decayed, but then came up and got rid of the sphere with a fresh dtilt.

Makes sense, move priority depends on power of hitbox (damage it deals), and when fully decay it can do less damage.

 

[Kataefi]

Yeah I think the Zelda/Charizard is a battle of spacing, and miscalculated spacing happens all the time... it's inevitable I suppose. It was most likely zelda was too close to charizard and wasn't hitting with her tipper.

Just a question... does move decay affect hitstun?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Yeah I think the Zelda/Charizard is a battle of spacing, and miscalculated spacing happens all the time... it's inevitable I suppose. It was most likely zelda was too close to charizard and wasn't hitting with her tipper.

Just a question... does move decay affect hitstun?

Nothing noticable, it's possible that there's a small effect, but I've never observed it nor (I think has anyone else).


I don't think it was thought about that much before, but it's worth testing. But it's a frame data thing, so we need somebody with a 60 fps camera.

 

[Takumaru]

Yeah I think the Zelda/everyone is a battle of spacing, and miscalculated spacing happens all the time... it's inevitable I suppose.

I fixed it for you.

 

[Bandit]

I must be going crazy.

I'm shooting auraspheres at Zelda right now and getting her to dtilt and Lucario's at 135% and she's still cancelling those auraspheres everytime. She cancels them from behind her body as well.

This is... great!

Her dtilt completely negates the use of his camp. I'm surprised =O

Same for pit as well. Her dtilt totally cancels out arrows. Just tested (thought you guys would want to know xD )

EDIT:: and so do fairs/ bairs / dairs =O

****! I knew it canceled lower percentage aura spheres but I figured when he entered "God Mode" that it wouldn't work like with dins. I guess both have their limits.

Anyway, kudos to my suggestion! And EVEN BIGGER kudos to Kat for doing all the work to prove it (which I had decided not to do tonight...).

Anyway to take away a camping game is great news for Zelda.

 

[Kataefi]

The reason I test these things is because a) procrastination and b) my wii is right next to my laptop lol

But I seriously didn't know Dtilt had that effect on auraspheres. It's good news! Well done bandit!

 

[Villi]

Why is it better than a power shield or NL?

 

[Brinzy]

Decayed shield/laggy reflector.

 

[Timbers]

PS is better than dtilt, lol. Aurasphere moves so slowly that I strongly urge any person that cannot PS it to go practice it now.

I still stand by that Luc controls Zelda in this matchup. You cannot approach with dtilts and naryus is far too laggy to throw out on a whim. Sure you can assume that they're equal percentages and it turns into a standoff, but unlike Zelda, Luc actually has options to approach should he fall behind in stock or percentage.

To add onto this, Zelda needs to be surprisingly close to Luc to actually get that killer on him, while Luc can outspace Zelda with quite a few moves, most of which are killers.

So yeah keep that in mind.

Dtilt is in no way groundbreaking to the matchup, it's just a fancier way to PS. I didn't go and check this either, but do shorthopped AS get cancelled by dtilt? I ask because the amount of times I'm actually on the ground when I use aurasphere is rather low.

 

[Brinzy]

That's why I don't really like fighting Lucario on WiFi. I can't powershield his attacks and he's basically nonpunishable. I don't play any real Lucario mains offline though.

Din's Fire cancels with Aura Sphere. It's a decent option to use on a Lucario who is charging since you can just detonate it to clash with Aura Sphere if you do something like jump and Din's, since that'll close in distance while keeping you relatively safe, unless there's some Lucario technique that I don't know about which lets him capitalize on this during his cooldown.

Zelda can make approaches as well. SH-nair, walking (to powershield, Fsmash, whatever), grabbing.... lingering out of range to bait a response. There's really not a time where Lucario can keep her walled off except for Fsmash under a Battlefield platform or something similar. There's also never really a time where I simply cannot approach some character. It just takes aggressive playing and not being predictable.

Lucario should be able to outspace Zelda, but it's not a huge outspacing at all. Her aerials actually do have comparable range to his, as well as her ground attacks. If she's outranged, it's not by a lot. She can kill at the tip of her range with Fsmash, like Lucario can. Her ftilt sports very similar range to her Fsmash. Dtilt also has very good range and basically sets up the necessary kills. The shorter ranged moves just have to be used later on, when Zelda's closer to Lucario, which will happen.

Dtilt does play a big role. Zelda can dtilt lock Lucario starting at about 50% and end it with a Dsmash when the opponent is almost out. Sure, it'll bring him to an annoyingly higher damage, but by then, Fsmash, Usmash, and utilt should be killing alright, and every aerial but nair should kill.

 

[Timbers]

wifi makes it difficult to do anything, which is why i refrain from using it for matchup purposes.

does Din's cancel it at every percent? I know it cancels BAS but the idea of it cancelling a full aurasphere seems unbelievable to me, as it's surprisingly easy to outprioritize Din's. If the Luc is charging a sphere and you throw a dins, it's rather easy to throw up a shield. If you throw a dins and Luc has a full aurasphere already, it's stupid easy to take advantage of Zelda's Din's lag. Also keep in mind that during charge, Luc can aurasphere cancel into shorthopped options. The likelihood of him airdodging the Dins (assuming that Zelda would blow it up on top of him) and then nairing Zelda in afterlag, or fair, or even aurasphere (depending how close she is and when Din's actually went off) are plausible options.

You're going to nair into a grounded opponent? Good luck. Even when Zelda nair isn't used against me for approach, throwing up shield makes dair and grab oos very easy for Luc due to it's lack of range. Also keep in mind that part of Luc's walling tactics include bair and fair, both these moves outrange Zelda's nair considerably, and even Luc nair outranges sweetspots on her lightning kicks. So yes, at least in the air, Luc outranges Zelda very well. Like I said in a former thread, when Zelda's only option for safe approach is a PS, while keeping in mind her groundspeed is average, it's not an appealing situation to be in.

It's a rather large "outspace." Like I said, Luc's shortest ranged aerial outspaces sweetspots on her lightning kicks. Try dealing with fair and bair, and you're going to be struggling. It's a different story when you're juggling obviously, but even then I'd consider Luc's juggle game to be superior to Zeldas WHEN TALKING OF THIS MATCHUP ALONE. Zelda has great close-quarters game, but that's about as far as it goes for her against Luc. You see, Luc can space with tipped fsmashes and be guaranteed full damage and full knockback when connected. If you're trying to fsmash with the tipper of Zelda's fsmash, that's stupid easy to SDI. You want to hit with the brunt of her fsmash, not the very tip where there's only like 3 or 4 hits. Ftilt's good but incredibly unsafe on block and makes her vulnerable to Luc's jabs oos. Dtilt is very good and very safe (in this matchup anyways, I'm unaware of what characters with better oos options than Lucario can do to her), it's no doubt one of Zelda's best moves.

I meant it didn't play a big role in negating camping, because it doesn't.

 

[Brinzy]

Din's probably doesn't beat all Aura Spheres, but like I said (or tried to say), I use it when I can predict a sphere and I use it to cancel it out, assuming I don't want to rely on an airdodge or Nayru's, which is rare.

Lucario's nair is farther than Zelda's lightning kicks? I'm too lazy to actually go and test this stuff, but that's hard for me to imagine. Maybe if he's retreating it. I know that I can lightning kick through Ness's fair and I can trade with Peach's fair, two very good fairs. I almost never fight this character, so I don't really know for sure if his aerials truly outrange the lightning kicks. Zelda's bair comes out on frame 5, which is fast enough for her to get trades with a lot of characters simply because the hitbox is out there at the same time as her hurtbox. I'm pretty sure that I've traded with Marth's fair as well (except for when he's retreating) for a similar reason, or maybe this isn't the reason at all, but the point is, I've traded.

As for nair, yeah, the range on it sucks, but the selling point is the extremely low lag she has from landing with it. It's not really the attack itself that makes it a viable option, but rather it's the fact that there are hitboxes out while she's moving over and behind her opponent which allow her to hit shields and then follow-up with dtilt before they can grab her. If I were to jump directly in front of you with nair, I'd screw myself up. Going behind you helps with getting enough time to act before my opponent.

The tip of Zelda's Fsmash = the last hitbox of it in that burst (which happens to be a ~5 frame burst) = the largest hitbox that gives her the maximum reach. If I hit you with the tip, there is no DIing out of it. You do want to hit with the brunt of it, but that's also where everyone DIs out of it. I would trade in 2-3 hits of Fsmash that deal 3% at the most for the final hitbox which is the really important one. As for ftilt, there was a thread up once testing to see what aerials ftilt can beat out. It's doubtful that it can be out Lucario's SH aerials, but it's still worth testing, though that's something for us to test, of course.

 

[Kataefi]

Din's on short burst does outprioritise a fully charged aurasphere at every percent. So does dtilt, but stale decay seems to affect this. Quite hard to time.

If you do SH aurasphere dtilt goes underneath it.

 

[Timbers]

Trading hits doesn't necessarily make the range of a move. Either the move wasn't spaced properly or their hurtbox extended into their move and you hit the extended hurtbox. The hurtbox can extend before the hitbox even comes out on some moves, just for example. I believe Zelda's fair and bair are the same range as Luc's fair, but as the sweetspot isn't on her toe, and moreso her heel, it does sacrifice some range in order to become effective.

I know the purpose of nair, but don't assume the character will be a sitting duck in their shield while you can set up into another move. Expect retaliation. Luc's utilt is extremely quick to hit behind him, so if you're not taking defensive measures after being shielded you should expect to eat a hit. I know you said earlier that you have played Lucarios online for the most part, so it's likely his punish game was skewed, but do it keep it in mind. Also being able to nair into the opponent and behind their shield requires you to be very close to the opponent. I've brought down Zelda a lot with fair and ftilt for jumping in my face like that.

Less hits=easy SDI. In my experience I've seen fsmash be used as damage racking more than for killing though, and it's been a while since I last died to an fsmash, so I don't know how important the knockback is in contrast to wanting full damage or to simply space with it, which doesn't feel very necessary in this case. Not to have an ego here but I love when Zeldas try to fsmash space me, as Luc has 4 very realistic moves to outrange it.

 

[Kataefi]

What are his 4 moves that outrange her? I'm thinking fsmash, aurasphere, but I can't think of others =(

Luc's FSmash hurtbox can go into her FSmash from quite a range... it's strange! :/

EDIT: It's so easy to SDI out of her FSmash, and you can tech it as well by SDIing down into the ground. But then you take all the hits and she still remains unpunishable from the cooldown. So it's best to just SDI away instead of tech as you actually avoid damage and knockback.

But still, it's a great spacing tool. Maybe not so much for Lucario... but on the rest of the cast ^^

 

[Timbers]

I apologize, there's actually only 3 moves. Fsmash, aurasphere, and (2nd hit) ftilt. I always thought bair outranged it as I was able to shorthop over the tip of fsmash and bair her, I guess I was just hitting an extended hitbox though.

Technically forcepalm flame outranges it as well, but no Luc would ever do that.

Also I was testing Din's with with aurasphere just now, and I can't seem to actually get the dins hitbox out to cancel it out with Din's unless he's more than half a stagelength away. I have no idea how Din's cancelling aurasphere is relevant at all if it takes that much time to bring the hitbox out. PS is the best way definitely.

But just because, any aurasphere dealing 16+ percent seems to cancel Din's. That's about a 60% aurasphere fullcharge.