Err okay I'm about to leave this thread. Every single person in here so far seems to enjoy skewing my words or are talking complete theory.
even at the highest levels of play, people make mistakes. If we didn't account for mistakes, we'd assume that you powersheilded everything that your opponent could throw at you and that characters with invincibility frames on attacks like sheik, wolf and zelda would continuously counter just about everything with those frames. You don't assume rampant mistake making, but you don't assume perfection either. the lucario main would have to be significantly better than the zelda main to keep her zoned the entire game.
I already said that both players would be making mistakes, so it's pointless to say that the Lucario isn't always going to space well. It's like me coming in here and (for the third time saying this) saying that "Zelda's easy to kill because you can make her whiff a grounded move, ones she must fully commit to (save for dtilt) which makes easy KOs." Am I going to consider the idea of a player screwing up and add it into my equation? No way, you shouldn't either.
also, lucario's OoS dair isn't going to hit zelda much. it should, really, only hit her if she dash attacks your sheild... which she may do. Otherwise, if she's that close, Downsmash comes out quicker than your dair.
Did you read in which circumstance I'm talking about? They're talking about starting a nair in front of him and moving through his shield with it. Zelda will be very close to Lucario in order to do this, and she'll land very close to him as well.
not playing zelda or lucario doesn't mean you can't understand the matchup. IT's that you consistently underestimate zelda that means you don't understand the matchup.
You're underestimating Lucario a lot.
or at least the boards are. If Zelda goes on the offensive, Luc can't do anything about it. If Zelda goes on the defensive, Luc is helpless. That's pretty much what I'm hearing right now.
You can stutter step them if you so choose. Or simply Fsmash walk a little bit Fsmash. If you try to attack while we walk we can either start another Fsmash before you get in or Dsmash since it is quicker... But I love stutter stepping, works well against Lucario and Meta sometimes.
How does walling with your fsmash save you from fsmash, aurasphere, and sh bair? Keep in mind we're not going to just be standing there while you fsmash lol. Like, how do you intend to just keep walking forward and fsmashing when you're dealing with superior (retreating) ranged ground move, a projectile, and a great aerial punisher (for this situation)
You were told that it was one of her better approaching options, approaching being moving in to fight at close distance.
That's exactly what I said, why rephrase or argue semantics?
Well that's why you make sure the attack finishes in the air and you jump behind them. Hit their shield so they can't drop it in that frame and then dtilt, which beats out every grab.
As I said previously, maybe wifi is just hindering your results and you have the ability to buffer dtilt in landing frames to get past this, but there is seriously no way Zelda should be doing this, often at least. If you're not snatched out of the air for being a sitting duck in front of his face and he instead shields, you still have 2-3 frames between the last hit of nair and you hitting the ground, another 4 frames for ff landing lag, and (I'm guessing) 5 frames for dtilt. Luc has a 6-7 frame punisher to characters who land close to him, which Zelda will, assuming you sh at him with a nair and move behind him. If you're like landing on top of his shield to do this, that's about as silly as Luc trying to dair your usmash. If your nair is blocked it's much safer and much wiser to just shield or move in for a new set up.
Like I said, it's just silly to assume that Luc is going to just shield everytime you jump at him when he has an artillery of moves to take down characters with less than appealing aerial approach options. A shad to dtilt, from my experience, is much more effective. You're at least safe jumping into his lingering wall game, the only thing you have to worry about is being read with your decision, which I still think is safer than letting the Lucario react to your move.
