Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

[Brinzy]

But see, how do you focus on hitting someone? When it comes to Zelda, her hurtbox, for simplicity's sake, goes from vertical to horizontal. If Lucario is properly spacing his fair, he's trying to space it so he can hit her when her leg is out... but then that would mean Zelda is kicking with relatively poor spacing. If Zelda is using bair, there really isn't time for Lucario to respond upon reaction, but instead prediction (barring very obvious attempts to kick him). If she's properly spacing her kick, I am of the belief that she can still trade with him, because she can't get a lightning kick on any frame after the kick comes out, so she shouldn't be getting hit for nothing in most cases where both characters attack with aerials.

In a real situation, Lucario should win more in the air. However, I think they can trade quite a bit more because of the range of her aerials. Also, fair is the one that works kinda weird in that sometimes it helps to be a bit closer to land the kick rather than the extreme tip, but bair, with slightly more range, has the sweetspot on the very tip. She doesn't lose any range from this.

I didn't consider utilt. That would hurt my approach...

Less hits might mean easier DI, but when the hitboxes are coming out frame after frame, it's pretty impossible to fall into it halfway through and SDI out. I don't use Fsmash to kill, but I think 14% > 2%, for certain. At a closer range, Zelda's jab can function for the same thing. it helps with SH approaches as a bonus, but the selling point is its extremely low lag. Both are getting outranged anyway, so Zelda might as well use jab as well.

 

[Timbers]

I'm just saying that in order for Zelda to get a lightning kick off, she'd have to be very close to Luc for Luc's standards. It's also a very linear kick, if it arched in some form I'd be more concerned about it. Yes I've died to a few lightning kicks, but it's hardly threatening. Most stocks I live to at least 140% against Zelda. You're talking about spacing yet seem to neglect that Luc can space his own aerials to a much more applicable degree. Don't expect to land sweetspots very often, all I'm saying. I think Zelda has more threatening setups and moves. It happens yes, but all in all I'd recommend you to stick to the ground unless you see a situation where you can punish.

The range of her aerials are still pretty bad. Powerful yes, but still lack in range.

I was unaware that Zelda's bair had a more extended sweetspot than fair. It's interesting to know, but I still feel there are moves much more threatening in Zelda's arsenal than the lightning kicks. They just feel so linear, most LK attempts on me get beaten by Luc's fair arc or dair rather easily.

Having a move come out a few frames slower means easier shielding or more time to react accordingly.

EDIT: Also it's worth mentioning that while trying to get that sweetspot off during LK you're going to be dealing with plenty of lingering hitboxes that do outrange the sweetspot.

 

[Brinzy]

I'm not saying she's going to land tons of kicks. I'm not even saying that it happens more than people think. I'm just saying that I've never really had problems trading off a lightning kick as a response to an aerial against most of the cast, and I don't see why Lucario's aerials make it harder than most. He has the typical disjointed attacks and... really, that's about it as far as his aerials concern me. The fact that Zelda does not arc her kicks is a concern for Zelda players when it comes to... say, approaching with them, but that simply means I shouldn't try to kick until I'm linear with Lucario.

Her lightning kicks are threatening, because even amongst lower levels of play, it's what you do that decides whether or not you're going to get hit by them, not Zelda. I know the sweetspot inside and out, and I have a generally good grasp as to when I want to try for a kick and when I don't. There will be times, of course, where I throw out kicks to try and bait a reaction, but if I sincerely want to land the kick, whether or not it's blocked or met by certain attacks, I will space them accordingly 95% of the time. It doesn't take very long at all to go from not getting hit by it at all to getting hit by it. Also, while its main function is to kill, Zelda is still dealing a very considerable amount of damage. There are some Zelda players who use it exclusively to kill. I'm one of the players who simply take what I can get. My rhetoric is basically saying that you may not die from them, but the purpose may not always be to kill with them. As for their range... they aren't bad in range, at all. Not even in a comparison against Lucario. Bair/fair have decent range. Uair has massive range. Nair and dair are the ones with lesser range. Dair probably has the poorest range, but it's dair, arguably Zelda's least used move (which probably still trades with Lucario's uair, but I still need testing). Nair's range is unimpressive, but with her good aerial mobility, she should be trying to use this when she's not linear with Lucario and when he's not obviously going to hit her with an aerial (or if she just happens to be very close).

But to end this, Zelda's lightning kicks are not held in the highest regard at all. I'm definitely not arguing that they are the most threatening thing she has... but they're often underestimated in range, speed, etc. by many players, so I often find myself debating the kicks.

Also, not to sound like a jerk or anything, but while Zelda is better offensively on the ground, no Zelda worth his or her salt will try to stay grounded for nearly all the match. More than the air? Perhaps. However, giving how Zelda moves faster in the air than she does on the ground, she should at least utilize that at times, even if for empty short-hops.

If you're hitting with the end of Zelda's Fsmash against a Lucario who walks in during it and somehow shields it, spotdodges it, or whatever, Zelda isn't getting punished, not even on a powershield, assuming she is definitely aiming for the end of the Fsmash. I have never, ever been punished by landing the ending part of Fsmash as opposed to the whole thing. If I'm hitting with the ending, I'm at a great distance. I can spotdodge all grabs and I can block all attacks from this range thanks to Fsmash's low cooldown. There really isn'a huge loss to trying to hit with the end of Fsmash.

 

[Timbers]

How many characters have an aerial moveset that either arcs or has crazy range, (moderately) fast, and lingers? =|

Luc's fair isn't held in the highest regard when talking about range (infact it's pretty bad) so when it (technically) outspaces Zelda's LKs (or at least fair, I never checked bair) I'll have to assume that it's pretty lackluster in range. I'll drop the kicks there. When you mentioned that you trade kicks with other characters I assumed it was a common thing, or else you wouldn't have brought it up due to any move in the game being able to trade with other moves due to poor spacing or something.

SHAD is probably the best way to get in close to Lucario (from personal experience) as the only thing he really has to counter this is a utilt, which is probably less threatening than fair, fsmash, ftilt, aurasphere when trying to force your way in. When I said to stay on the ground, I was talking more about for offensive purposes. No matter how good you think nair is for approach, I just don't see it, at least not against Luc.

Zelda's fsmash is probably less punishable than Luc's on block, I would never consider trying to punish a blocked Zelda fsmash. What I would do though is if you're trying to just tip me with it is to either stutterstep an fsmash or just flat out pressure you with longer-ranged moves than Zelda's groundgame, namely fsmash and ftilt. Giving me more time to stutterstep, shorthop into a dair, or rearrange my positioning just doesn't seem very appealing lol. Like you said, take what you can get. Luc will lose out to Zelda in CQC, and there's not much he can do to an fsmash when that close due to speed issues (Jabs are slow, utilt is slow in front of him, ftilt is slow but has range, dtilt is just slow, etc)

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

you know why you guys keep running round and round on this mathcup? Quite simply, becuase neither character has a big foothold on the other.

Does lucario have more range? Yes. is it a lot? no. both of thir projectiles are easy enough to avoid/block. Zelda's is punishable, lucario's is reflectable, but harder to punish, but it requires a charge. Lucario is harder to kill but zelda has more kill moves which are stronger than lucario's until lucario is at some of the highest damages. Neither of us have really amazing recoveries as far as safety is concerned, but neither is particularly awful either. Lucario's got a better air game, but zelda has a much better anti air game (it's going to take a perfectly placed dair to get through our Usmash, and that's even punishable if it's predicted.) Lucario's approaches don't really threaten zelda much, but neither do hers to him. Both are better on defense. Basically it comes down to getting an early KO for zelda. Land a lightning kick, uair or utilt around the 100% mark and lucario should die before he's really got the full use of his power... keep him around too long and he'll just become too strong for you.

Getting the first kill is crucial because it can dictate the rest of the match. Lucario's aerials have nice range, but if he misses any of them, we have a chance at a lighting kick or uair... or even a spike if he's off the edge. powersheilding his Fsmash should prompt a dash attack from us or something else to pop him up. Staying grounded is a big boon for us, and it's easier to do if we keep him on the juggle.

I've yet to lose to a lucario, but I don't think most of them I've faced are as good as me, nor are they used to fighting zeldas. But, while I see how lucario can mediate what we can do to him, I fail to see how he can really brickwall or gain steam against a zelda who is concious of spacing. It's a very even matchup and, if anything gives you the advantage, it's that you are JUST heavy enough to stick around too long for our liking.

Sheik CAN solve some of our problems with stopping a camping lucario with her needles and refreshing of zelda's kill moves, but sheik's lack of disjoints and reliable finishers makes it risky to keep her out too long. Optimal use of sheik might sway the matchup in our advantage even, but without her it's pretty neck and neck with maybe the smallest of advantages on lucario's side.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

godly textwalls, but good reads anyway. um what stages should Zelda fight/ban on Lucario? i always seem lost at that point when it comes to him

 

[Brinzy]

Not many characters have those qualities overall for their aerials, admittedly.

Lucario's fair overrides Zelda's in many instances because of its arc, not really its range. Fair, which comes out on frame 8, is putting a hurtbox out before a hitbox, so it isn't a good idea to try and trade with this. Fair can trade, but bair is definitely better than it. I haven't traded many times with Lucario because I obviously have not played him enough, but from my experience, if I aim for the area around Lucario's head, I have a much easier time hitting him than if I do something stupid like aim for his feet.

I guess I need to fix myself a bit. I don't think nair is an impressive approach. I simply think that she can hit the shield and land by Lucario (depending on where his utilt starts at) while taking some defensive measures, at least sometimes. Zelda's hurting for approaches, so I'm not gonna completely eliminate SH-nair.

Well the fact that he can deal with her Fsmash relatively easily says enough about how he fares against her ground attacks. Can we discuss edgeguarding now? Also, thank you for remaining civil and patient with me, even if I have said silly things now/in the past.

 

[Kataefi]

One question though...

What if Zelda spaces at the tip of his ftilt range and goes into dtilt mode? It beats out his ftilt in speed, remains unpunishable from his jab and grab, and is simply too fast to be punished by his fsmash. It also has the same range =O

When it's faster and just as ranged, his Ftilt can't reliably punish against a spaced dtilt IMO. This could be an annoyance for him I suppose. His ftilt can mess around with Zelda's own hurtbox via FSmash, but Dtilt places her's behind and attacks reliably against it.

 

[Timbers]

you know why you guys keep running round and round on this mathcup? Quite simply, becuase neither character has a big foothold on the other.

Does lucario have more range? Yes. is it a lot? no. both of thir projectiles are easy enough to avoid/block. Zelda's is punishable, lucario's is reflectable, but harder to punish, but it requires a charge. Lucario is harder to kill but zelda has more kill moves which are stronger than lucario's until lucario is at some of the highest damages. Neither of us have really amazing recoveries as far as safety is concerned, but neither is particularly awful either. Lucario's got a better air game, but zelda has a much better anti air game (it's going to take a perfectly placed dair to get through our Usmash, and that's even punishable if it's predicted.) Lucario's approaches don't really threaten zelda much, but neither do hers to him. Both are better on defense. Basically it comes down to getting an early KO for zelda. Land a lightning kick, uair or utilt around the 100% mark and lucario should die before he's really got the full use of his power... keep him around too long and he'll just become too strong for you.

Getting the first kill is crucial because it can dictate the rest of the match. Lucario's aerials have nice range, but if he misses any of them, we have a chance at a lighting kick or uair... or even a spike if he's off the edge. powersheilding his Fsmash should prompt a dash attack from us or something else to pop him up. Staying grounded is a big boon for us, and it's easier to do if we keep him on the juggle.

I've yet to lose to a lucario, but I don't think most of them I've faced are as good as me, nor are they used to fighting zeldas. But, while I see how lucario can mediate what we can do to him, I fail to see how he can really brickwall or gain steam against a zelda who is concious of spacing. It's a very even matchup and, if anything gives you the advantage, it's that you are JUST heavy enough to stick around too long for our liking.

Sheik CAN solve some of our problems with stopping a camping lucario with her needles and refreshing of zelda's kill moves, but sheik's lack of disjoints and reliable finishers makes it risky to keep her out too long. Optimal use of sheik might sway the matchup in our advantage even, but without her it's pretty neck and neck with maybe the smallest of advantages on lucario's side.

Luc actually has some sick range on Zelda, but most of it is in places I'd normally not care about. Zelda's moveset is very linear. As Rapheal said, she's either vertical or horizontal. She lacks range over Lucario but makes up for it with a quicker close-quarters game.

I think you may be undermining the aurasphere, as it's certainly not a bad tool, especially in this matchup. If you are airborne, aurasphere can force the naryus or airdodge, and can set up for some nice traps. Din's can't do this, and sadly can't do much at all from what I've seen besides harass recovery. BAS can be spammed, and as much as I'm against it, I would never mind doing so in this matchup. A laggy reflector is an easy punish. Aurasphere does hassle Zelda if she's forced to approach (percent disadvantage or stock disadvantage) whereas Din's does nothing. It's just not wise to compare the two.

Zelda might have better anti-air in general, but not so much in this match. You can usmash our dair, okay, but Lucs have learned quite a long time ago not to land on characters with dairs. Even if they don't have moves to snatch him out of the dair he still can be punished oos easily. Fair, bair, and nair are all safe. I would even go further as to say that Luc's anti air is superior to Zeldas in regards to this match. Spammable uairs catch airdodges, utilts catch anything above him+landing frames. Ftilt has an amazing lingering hitbox and can be angled to rip anyone out of the air. It's great in the sense that his anti-air game is hardly linear. Everything arcs and everything lingers, you will be hard pressed.

I don't like this "So and so is nice, but IF he misses any.." mentality. I can say the same to Zelda's fsmash really. "If Zelda misspaces her fsmash its a free 15-20% or death at 100-120%" The only aerial in Luc's arsenal that can actually be reacted to and punish would be bair in terms of cooldown, and as the move is used to bait I just don't see this happening much, if all. Has never happened to me anyways. LKs tend to nab me if I'm on platforms rather than actually being airborne.

I definitely think it's advantage Lucario. The only thing that really concerns me in the matchup is Zelda's close-quarters game.

One question though...

What if Zelda spaces at the tip of his ftilt range and goes into dtilt mode? It beats out his ftilt in speed, remains unpunishable from his jab and grab, and is simply too fast to be punished by his fsmash. It also has the same range =O

When it's faster and just as ranged, his Ftilt can't reliably punish against a spaced dtilt IMO. This could be an annoyance for him I suppose. His ftilt can mess around with Zelda's own hurtbox via FSmash, but Dtilt places her's behind and attacks reliably against it.

Does Zelda's dtilt have more range than her fsmash? Luc's ftilt outranges her fsmash.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

godly textwalls, but good reads anyway. um what stages should Zelda fight/ban on Lucario? i always seem lost at that point when it comes to him

Avoid stages that are bad for zelda, first and foremost. Also, lucario has a punishable recovery, but his ability to wallcling can really buff that for him. It's not a huge consideration, but I'd rather not fight him on yoshi's island when I could have smashville instead.


@ Timbers:
if he said zelda was linear, he meant in the air. she covers angles okay on the ground... it's her aerials that have blindspots.

aurasphere's probably better than din's, though the good zeldas know how to use din's so that, yes, it'll land often enough to make it good. still... a reflected aurasphere is a nice free kill sometimes... din's shouldn't give you free kills.

diference in anti airs is that Zeldas learn very early not to approach from above. you can have the best anti air in the world and it won't scare something that never intended on approaching you from the air in the first place. Just saying, Zelda's anti air limits something lucario would normally do, but lucario's anti air just reinforces the idea of zeldas to stay grounded most of the time.

I'm not suggesting that lucario is prone to miss his aeirals. merely that the payout for landing a lightning kick is massive and that you can't expect lucario to keep zelda off of him 100% of the time with his aerials.


oh and yeah... pick stages with platforms because it'll be easier to land our early-killers.... we really need that.

 

[Timbers]

I think Yoshi's is bad for Zelda to begin with? I've seen some gayness that wall does to her recovery.

I'd definitely take Zelda to Yoshi's or Frigate though, Japes if it's not banned in your area.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I think Yoshi's is bad for Zelda to begin with? I've seen some gayness that wall does to her recovery.

I'd definitely take Zelda to Yoshi's or Frigate though, Japes if it's not banned in your area.

the gayness happens if we have forward momentum when we touch the wall... then it'll rip us out of Farore's before we have a chance to teleport. It's easy enough to mediate, but a lot of people forget about it... which sucks. Other than that, yoshi's isn't particularly bad or good for zelda... I think it's a pretty nice sheik stage though.

Frigate is small... so at least it stops luc from running away and camping... just pray, as a zelda, that you don't need to recover on the ungrabbable portion... it sucks.

Japes... KILLS our KO ability, we can't approach him well if he camps, keeps him alive to high damage, water kills us. BAN THIS STAGE <.<

 

[Timbers]

To add onto Frigate, I like it because of the dip in the second stage. If she tries to camp it, it exposes her "diagonal" blindspot well and if she tries to space with fsmash she's essentially fsmashing into the raised part of the stage. I don't think I have to say why Luc is good at camping in it. Angled ftilts and fairs are yes against characters who need to approach.

 

[Kataefi]

What about edgeguarding? DSmash can place Luc at a critical position. He'll always recover, but forcing him to use his up + b is free damage / possible spike / edgehog (on a stage he cannot wall cling onto beneath the ledge).

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

To add onto Frigate, I like it because of the dip in the second stage. If she tries to camp it, it exposes her "diagonal" blindspot well and if she tries to space with fsmash she's essentially fsmashing into the raised part of the stage. I don't think I have to say why Luc is good at camping in it. Angled ftilts and fairs are yes against characters who need to approach.

she only has a diagonal blindspot while airborne. it's generally, if anything, HARDER to approach her whilst she's entrenched.

 

[Timbers]

she only has a diagonal blindspot while airborne. it's generally, if anything, HARDER to approach her whilst she's entrenched.

ftilt trumps fsmashing into stage lol.

Luc has no good aerial options save for fair against her in this sort of position, but it makes his fsmash and ftilt much more difficult to deal with. The only thing that I think would really make this dangerous for Luc is I had actually gotten PSd once out of fsmash and lightning kicked for it due to raised stage lol. I still think Luc can utilize the terrain much better than Zelda though.

There's other reasons as to why I like the stage but I typed more today than I have in about 5 months so yeah I'm a bit bored. I'll close my post just saying I think it's 60:40 Lucario.

 

[Kataefi]

Actually... you need to be really careful on tilted stages with Zelda. This is why I secretly counterpick lylat on everyone despite everyone thinking it's an awful stage. Tilted grounds screw with everyone's autocancels whilst at the same time make it so much easier to land lightning kicks.

She can land Bair OoS on Lucario so unbelievably easily over a slanted part of the stage.

For ratios --> I think it's definitely his match to lose. 60/40 - 55/45, I think it gets closer to even (55/45) when Zelda learns that dtilt has use against his ftilt, and sweetspots well ^^

Not forgetting... his fsmash is sucked into hers if she's within her range. Though his ftilt will beat this. But then dtilt arrives =)

She also has an amazing comeback on him if she dies first, with an entire set of fresh kill moves.



EDIT::: Can anyone code in java???

I'm having SERIOUS problems with an assignment and I've spent weeks on it, only to know I'll inevitably fail if I don't get something in =( It's not too long ;D

 

[Timbers]

I can see how slanted stages would help Zelda, as it's hard for her to land sweetspots on most grounded opponents otherwise. Frigate slants for the record, however, feel too steep for Zelda, if that makes sense? Her LKs work but fsmash and dtilt are like ew. I'll admit I haven't fought Zelda on slant-happy stages often (Yoshi's and Lylat for example) but it feels like it wouldn't help her much against characters with strong ground games. Not to say Luc's is in any way amazing but it does feel like dealing with transcendal priority on his grounded attacks would be difficult to land LKs on.

Yes Luc extends his hurtbox when he uses fsmash. Zelda does the same, I don't see the point of bringing that up.

Can you explain to me what you're talking about with dtilt? Luc's ftilt outranges it, and the second hit has quite a deal more range on it than the dtilt. Not sure what you're getting at.

 

[Kataefi]

It doesn't outrange it. They have the same range I believe. One will be slightly more than the other but this is arbitrary when they'll be moving around.

Ftilt doesn't outrange Zelda's FSmash either. It's just that in her FSmash's startups, she tilts her head ever so slightly forward, getting hit, because ftilt is faster.

With dtilt, she tilts back and strikes forward with the same range. It's faster than his ftilt.

 

[Timbers]

The second hit of ftilt indefinitely outranges both moves, the first is the same range? I guess.

Anyways go ahead and test it yourself.

I wasn't ftilting an fsmashing Zelda.

Luc's ftilt can be angled down for more maximum range on crouching opponents.

Anyways all of this theoretical stuff. I've never played Zelda and was like "**** right when I wanted to ftilt I got countered by her dtilt" or something.

 

[DMG]

Lucario is 60 : 40 vs Zelda. Shiek doesn't do much better. Next lol.

 

[Kataefi]

I guess so then ^^ He goes all hulk power on her after 100%.

What do the other zeldas think?

DMG out of curiosity do you second zelda? You should come here more often if you do! =D

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i feel its a bit closer to even but thats just me, more like 55:45.

 

[Somacruz2]

Lucario is one of my better matchups actually. Maybe its because i play lucario so often, but i would rather fight lucario than any other character i use, sheik too. What i do, is try to build damage up as quick as i can, then mind game them into a Forward smash to a quick punish. Don't try to punish Lucario in the air after he hits about 65-70, his Dair will out prioritize you every single time. DOn't waste time with Nayru's love, if the lucario is even half decent, he'll know how to use that to his advantage. Pressure with Din's Fire and keep him at bay. Don't roll around Lucario as his moves punish you heavy and his rolls are much better than yours.

sometimes i play as sheik at the start of the match, and while the lucario camps, keep the pressure up with Needles.

Fsmash with Zelda is going to be your best kill move, as Lucario's Dair will out prioritize your usmash and uair, trapping him with Dtilt is of course always advisable.

Honestly i think the matchup is 50:50 but thats just me, i think each character has enough to win the match up without a distinct disadvantage, Din's fire is quicker than aura sphere and is a great punisher for aura sphere, watch out for lucario's counter though, as it will wreck your fsmash and usmash since they're mult-hit. but try to keep the fight on the ground as Lucario might just **** you in the air, but space your fsmash and d-tilt and you should have no problem.

 

[GKInfinity]

Yeah, I tend to think it's closer to 55:45 (but then again, I've never played a particularly good Lucario).

Oh and Kat, I know a little Java but I'm pretty n00b so I can only really help if you're working with more basic stuff. PM me if you want and I'll see what I can do.

 

[Timbers]

You guys really need to play a Lucario that doesn't mind going full gay on you guys. There's a definite advantage in Luc's favor here, 60:40 definitely. The only way I can see it becoming neutral is if the Luc is either dumb enough or nice enough to let you play defense the entire match.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Matchup feels 50:50 to me. well... maybe it feels 51:49, but who cares about that?

(ignores Dr. Mario Guy's input since I've yet to see him prove that he understands Zelda as a character. It feels like he kinda trolls character boards singing the praises of wario and jeering those who think they can handle wario <.<)

 

[Browny]

Lucario is one of my better matchups actually. Maybe its because i play lucario so often, but i would rather fight lucario than any other character i use, sheik too. What i do, is try to build damage up as quick as i can, then mind game them into a Forward smash to a quick punish. Don't try to punish Lucario in the air after he hits about 65-70, his Dair will out prioritize you every single time. DOn't waste time with Nayru's love, if the lucario is even half decent, he'll know how to use that to his advantage. Pressure with Din's Fire and keep him at bay. Don't roll around Lucario as his moves punish you heavy and his rolls are much better than yours.

sometimes i play as sheik at the start of the match, and while the lucario camps, keep the pressure up with Needles.

Fsmash with Zelda is going to be your best kill move, as Lucario's Dair will out prioritize your usmash and uair, trapping him with Dtilt is of course always advisable.

Honestly i think the matchup is 50:50 but thats just me, i think each character has enough to win the match up without a distinct disadvantage, Din's fire is quicker than aura sphere and is a great punisher for aura sphere, watch out for lucario's counter though, as it will wreck your fsmash and usmash since they're mult-hit. but try to keep the fight on the ground as Lucario might just **** you in the air, but space your fsmash and d-tilt and you should have no problem.

What is this i dont even

you 'play lucario often'

then surely you should know that his aerials dont gain any priority from 0-170%, Dins fire is absolutely useless, Aura sphere will hit you well before the dins fire is airdodged. Fsmash shouldnt be a KO move at all... without that, you are going to be horribly outranged on the ground and competing with lucarios fsmash with anything other than your longest range moves is never advisable. Spacing with fsmash, and then relying on it to KO wont work, and lucarios counter wont ever punish u/fsmash unless youre extremely predictable with trying to catch landing frames with is

 

[Somacruz2]

What is this i dont even

you 'play lucario often'

then surely you should know that his aerials dont gain any priority from 0-170%, Dins fire is absolutely useless, Aura sphere will hit you well before the dins fire is airdodged. Fsmash shouldnt be a KO move at all... without that, you are going to be horribly outranged on the ground and competing with lucarios fsmash with anything other than your longest range moves is never advisable. Spacing with fsmash, and then relying on it to KO wont work, and lucarios counter wont ever punish u/fsmash unless youre extremely predictable with trying to catch landing frames with is

You realize that Zelda's aerial priority is horrible if its not sweet spotted right? And lucario's regular priority is great against zelda, even at lower percents, i don't know what you're even going on about. You do know that Din's fire can cancel out aura sphere as well, whihc can follow up with another din's fire if need be. As for Fsmash, you realize that im not saying spam Fsmash, but you can hit him with it, and then refresh it by using other moves. Lucario's counter is great against multi hit attacks, whether you're predictable or not, besides zelda is easier to read than most characters due to her limited strategies.

Din's fire is not absolutley useless, even if it doesn't hit lucario, you're still applying pressure to him to where you can make him play you're game. Im not saying that you're only supposed to use Dtilt and Fsmash,. Zelda is really good at shield punishing Lucario, and if the Zelda is half decent she should punish Lucario's Fsmash everytime since its one of his easiest attacks to read. Im sorry you disagree with me, but i think i know what im talking about.

 

[DMG]

Matchup feels 50:50 to me. well... maybe it feels 51:49, but who cares about that?

(ignores Dr. Mario Guy's input since I've yet to see him prove that he understands Zelda as a character. It feels like he kinda trolls character boards singing the praises of wario and jeering those who think they can handle wario <.<)

Lol.

Everytime we discuss a matchup, you always try to make it sound like your personal experience/opinions are leagues better than everyone or that yeah, our input matters but you are the judge who hears the case and makes a verdict lol. You make Zelda sound like she has a lot of advantaged/even matchups, when in reality she really doesn't.

You don't have to take my input seriously, I'm satisfied understanding the game well enough to just pick up characters and win with/against them. I don't care if you think I understand Zelda or not, I could retort that you obviously do not understand Wario.

You don't seem to think I understand Zelda... I understand that Zelda cannot just punish Lucario's Fsmash with Dash attack lol. I understand that Zelda has a hard time punishing Wario's camping, since I understand she runs slower than he can move in the air and that I understand that her airgame is terrible and that I understand that she generally loses matchups when she is forced to approach a lot.

Oh, but hey it's not like I'm good or anything, don't mind Mr. Top 3 Wario in the nation giving his input on something lol.


/Rant

Also, Kataefi I have though about picking up Zelda, IDK she looks interesting to use. I like Diddy more though, I tried him out randomly last Friday and basically won singles and teams mostly with him, so IDK.

 

[Timbers]

you're still applying pressure to him to where you can make him play you're game..

this statement right here just tells me that the lucs your playing either dont like camping or think that reflector is an end all to camping. Dins is not going to force an approach, especially not over aurasphere.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Dins is meh in so many matchups, even falcon can stop it.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Lol.

Everytime we discuss a matchup, you always try to make it sound like your personal experience/opinions are leagues better than everyone or that yeah, our input matters but you are the judge who hears the case and makes a verdict lol. You make Zelda sound like she has a lot of advantaged/even matchups, when in reality she really doesn't.

You don't have to take my input seriously, I'm satisfied understanding the game well enough to just pick up characters and win with/against them. I don't care if you think I understand Zelda or not, I could retort that you obviously do not understand Wario.

You don't seem to think I understand Zelda... I understand that Zelda cannot just punish Lucario's Fsmash with Dash attack lol. I understand that Zelda has a hard time punishing Wario's camping, since I understand she runs slower than he can move in the air and that I understand that her airgame is terrible and that I understand that she generally loses matchups when she is forced to approach a lot.

Oh, but hey it's not like I'm good or anything, don't mind Mr. Top 3 Wario in the nation giving his input on something lol.


/Rant

Also, Kataefi I have though about picking up Zelda, IDK she looks interesting to use. I like Diddy more though, I tried him out randomly last Friday and basically won singles and teams mostly with him, so IDK.

Zelda DOES have a lot of close/even matchups. and she has about as many advantaged as she does disadvantaged. Lucario might be a disadvantage for her, but it's really not a big disadvantage at all. he outranges her, but he's going to have to be spacing really well the whole time to make use of that range.

Zelda's dash attack out of powersheild WILL hit lucario after he Fsmashes. And zelda doesn't have a tough time with wario.

You play neither lucario nor zelda... why bother adding input you know nothing about? And being one of the best warios out there makes you just that: one of the best warios out there. it doesn't immediately make you knowledgable about everything that is brawl. Even then, you have a penchant for overestimating wario. Case in point the zelda matchup. I have conceded that my personal experience is not indicative of the whole since my win ratio against wario is very very high, but you seem to think your personal experience is law. There are NOT many good zeldas out there... so unless you've got a lot of experience against the best zeldas out there... you really don't know how she can handle wario. it's certainly not an easy matchup for him.

 

[Timbers]

these matchups are to assume that the character is played on it's highest level, so yes Luc having more range than Zelda, especially in regards to a character that needs to play defense to do well, it's a pretty big thing. It'd be like me saying "well sometimes the Zelda won't hit the sweetspot on ledge and you get a free kill" or "well sometimes Zelda will whiff and you get a free AS or fsmash." Simply assuming the opponent will make mistakes is just kind of meh :\ We can do all this "what if" stuff but it doesn't really help the matchup. Both players will make mistakes, it shouldn't be accounted for when talking about the character itself, and not the player.

Zelda can't dash attack a PS'd fsmash when spaced at tipper..I'm not even sure if she can do so when closer in, her dash animation gets like no boost and the initial dash frames aren't very fast either.

Range isn't the only reason I think this is in Luc's favor either. It's not so much what Luc has on Zelda, but more of what Zelda lacks. She doesn't have a good defensive air-game and has a poor approach game.

 

[DMG]

Zelda's dash attack out of powersheild WILL hit lucario after he Fsmashes. And zelda doesn't have a tough time with wario.

Anyone in the game can punish Lucario's Fsmash if they PS it and are relatively close lol, you know what I mean. :/

You play neither lucario nor zelda... why bother adding input you know nothing about? And being one of the best warios out there makes you just that: one of the best warios out there. it doesn't immediately make you knowledgable about everything that is brawl. Even then, you have a penchant for overestimating wario. Case in point the zelda matchup. I have conceded that my personal experience is not indicative of the whole since my win ratio against wario is very very high, but you seem to think your personal experience is law. There are NOT many good zeldas out there... so unless you've got a lot of experience against the best zeldas out there... you really don't know how she can handle wario. it's certainly not an easy matchup for him.

This part is what ticks me off. Just because I don't use characters much in tourney doesn't mean I don't understand how they work. That would be like saying Azen knows nothing about characters he never/rarely uses and then BAM he uses them at a high level, so yeah by your logic everyone knows nothing about the matchup/their information is incorrect unless they main BOTH characters since obviously you have to main the character to know anything about them rofl. I never have used Diddy in tournament until just now and I won with him. I didn't practice, I didn't get friendlies in with him before things got serious, I just picked him up and BAM played him.

I know a lot about a lot of characters. I don't have to play the best Zelda in the world to see how the matchup would turn out. It would be a nice bit of information, but not absolutely neccesary. That and if matchups are based only on being able to play the best with the best, then it creates a lot of problems. How are we gonna evaluate Falcon vs Wario if the best Wario/Falcon have never played? Hmm??? I mean, what are the chances of that happening? How are we gonna figure out what the matchup is unless the very best play it out? Oh right, we can look at both characters lol.

Point is, I don't have to play as Zelda or Lucario to look at both characters and come to the judgement that Lucario has the advantage. I don't have to be an amazing Zelda to be able to look at her and go "Uh oh, she has trouble approaching well. She runs slower than Wario can move in the air, man I'm not too good at competing with his air game, I might have problems stopping him from running around".

 

[Timbers]

Anyone in the game can punish Lucario's Fsmash if they PS it and are relatively close lol, you know what I mean. :/
.

If they're close, sure. If they're at tipper, only a handful of moves can nab it.

 

[DMG]

If they're close, sure. If they're at tipper, only a handful of moves can nab it.

Yeah, being relatively close/not at the tipper range.

Oh and Lucario has the advantage. lol.

 

[Kataefi]

It's not so much the approach problem that hinders Zelda... because with her range she never really has to approach someone's shield. It's more range to be honest. If someone outranges... then she'll struggle. Which is why Lucario could be good against her.

And yes DMG... at the very least use her as a thirdary ^^ She's seriously not as bad as she's made out to be in comparison to the rest of the cast I find (but that's same with a lot of characters) =D

Dtilt clanks with his ftilt btw even when angled down, or it will beat it out in speed. The range on ftilt is obscure though... it doesn't appear to be as long ranged as made out. But I think it does slightly outrange dtilt... but only slightly.

 

[Timbers]

I was being told several hours ago that Zelda struggles with approach options and was even told that nair was one of her best approach options, which has pretty silly range on it. How exactly can she approach and apply pressure while still maintaining a safe distance? Zelda has bad approaches from what I see, I thought that was a general opinion of the Zelda mainers as well.

What does "could be good" mean? Do you not even play the matchup? x\

Ftilt has transcendal priority. I'm unsure how this effects the match as I've never clanked with a dtilt before but it's worth keeping in mind. Not everything with clank with it.

 

[Kataefi]

I was too selective with my words ^^

Dtilt clanks with his ftilt. Go and test it now.

I'm not going to nair your shield. I'm not even going to touch your shield. i personally poke with FSmash and dtilt until I get them to trip, them build up damage. Sometimes I'll airdodge into Usmash.

If I ever nair your shield, I RAR it so I can attempt to space a dtilt after out of grab range, which is difficult to punish considerable you need to drop your shield, buffer a turn around, then attack.