Oh I see! Sorry ^^ Okay so in that context you're right... I'd like to know the frames of DK's ground moveset. I suppose DK never gets hit with jabs or grabs then with that range?
And yes... I've tested stuff... and I'm currently using that debugger pause thingy. DK in terms of his hurtbox is larger than bowser.
Bowser is like a giant ball in the air. You can sweetspot that ball but it will be difficult to sweetspot the top and bottom as it curves.
DK is like a giant cross in the air. Meaning you can basically sweetspot anywhere, head, feet, arm, even the back of Fair's and Bair's hitbox. It's insane =O
dk's ground moveset is
dtilt - active frame 6-9, ends frame 22, pretty much ridiculously safe
ftilt - active frame 8-11, ends frame 33, this is just used for range and priority, it's his general AA due to the range.
utilt - frame 5-11, ends frame 38, for rolls and such, has a lot of range behind him, juggles early on
jab - frame 4, not used much except for tick grabs and jab - dsmash since it has like, half the range of everything else, second hit is decent AA
grab - frame 8-9, another poke, has the exact same range as ddds standing grab
upb (grounded) - SA frame 8-16, active frame 19-57, dk's nado, surprisingly hard to work around due to hitbox and it clanking with everything/eating rolls, spotdodges and poking shields
downb - active frame 19-20, 30-31 ends frame 60 (unless you repeat) - if you count the range behind him it is the longest ranged non-projectile in the game, we only use this when we know you aren't going to jump, so don't say "just jump over it", basically a poke when you don't want to approach. a really, really big poke.
fsmash - active frame 22-23, ends frame 54, usually used charged since it becomes safe on block, huge range
punch - full charged -SA on frame 17-20 hitbox on frame 18-22 ends frame 45 full charged, comes out frame 25 for charging punches, ends frame 59
that's the basics of his ground game, looks kinda slow, but the range more than makes up for it, ftilt, fsmash, punch, downb and grab outrange your entire ground game, the back of utilt and a nomral dtilt outrange everything not called fsmash
ko numbers (for level 9 DI), from center of fd
*note: dk's punch has more ko power before the full charge
9 wind punch sweetspot - 34 (vertical)
9 wind punch sour spot - 43
full punch - 65
fsmash is mostly used by the ledge and after tech chases (since it covers all edge options when timed right, and hits characters off the edge if they stay there), but here's the center stage numbers
fsmash - 74
fsmash small charge (upon getting safe, does 23%, version used most) - 56
fsmash full charge - 41
dsmash
normal - 84 (vertical)
sourspot -96 (only possible way to land this vs tall characters like zelda is via headbutts, which will usually result in a charge, still, this is the number if we decide to skip the charge part)
horizontal ko - depends too much on trajectory to tell, 80ish is a good ballpark though
sweetspot - 80 (vert)
full charged (rarely use it with any charge on it, since fsmash would just be better 90% of the time) - 50 (vert)
Usmash (all vertical)
Sweetspot - 66
Sourspot - 74
Slight charge (almost never used full charged) - 56
Full charge ( on the off chance you jump into it, might be used for headbutt breaks) - 36
bair - 124
fair - 100
uair (ground) - 112
uair (SH) - 102
utilt (only ko's on sweetspot) - 96
bthrow - 159
that's all the basic frame data and numbers you could need
for more advanced stuff, the attacks we can GFSC punish (only applicable if you're playing me and cbk, other dk's are too lazy to get the timing)
we can punish your dtilt, jab, ftilt, utilt (if done close), dsmash, whiffed grabs and any aerial landed within our shield range with a headbutt (we can combo it out of a grounded footstool, but again, against most dk's this will never come into play, they're too lazy)
yeah... bowser's bigger and easier to sweetspot.
Zelda's not that easy to gimp though bigfoot... she doesn't HAVE to aim for a ledge.
i know she doesn't have to aim for the ledge, but dk's gimp game is about quantity more than anything, upb ledge stall makes it hard to recover, because even if you go over, we have enough time to get up and grab - bthrow to start it all over.
the space animals (except falco), diddy and the loz characters (sakurai gave them all bad recoveries) are the few characters i'm quite sure i can gimp consistently, for zelda, a bair or two and a ledge stall usually does it.
USmash isn't going to be DI'd out of consistently. Neither is FSmash :/ IIRC DK cannot SDI out of usmash.
DK's spaced bair doesn't beat USmash unless it attacks from under the hitbox, and in this situation it would be wiser for her to space FSmash or angle Ftilt. In fact, you can countercamp with spaced Bairs as it sweetspots his toe if done right. Unless she's completely whiffing attacks, DK is not bair camping against her.
Dtilt is easy on DK IMO... he doesn't have an outrageously fast attack that's frame 2 or below. He's not bowser who can immediately use fortress, or marth or ZSS who have instead frame 1 attacks to hit before dtilt. Guaranteed sweetspots destroy him from trip. It's going to happen, and he's a) going to die at moderate percents or b) going to take 28% damage right off the bat. And you can buffer a bair from trip... this means you can stale one and use the other for the kill.
LKs have cinematic hitlag... they're either going to kill you outright or going to survive anyways even with air braking... buffering an fair for damage and buffering a bair for the kill works fine against air braking. This is something relatively new and not all zeldas do this
yet.
If done right... you aren't living to percents your most comfortable with in any other matchup.
He is the biggest character in the game bar none unfortunately. Bigger than rob, bigger than bowser. And thus the easiest character to sweetspot. I don't know what Zeldas you're facing who are attacking on action rather than reaction... but she isn't just going to throw out and whiff laggy attacks and become punishable from them.
I'd face you in an MM, gladly if I was in your area. I'd actually encourage any Zeldas in this area to face you. DK is the one matchup I am most confident in entering with as Zelda... all you need to do is play on reaction and look for opportunities to outspeed with dtilt, force him to recover with dsmash and let him approach in general. By all means
destroy me with a DK punch if I'm leading the pace of the match throwing out random smashes here and there... but then I'd be asking to throw my money away.
EDIT:: In what situation will Zelda be Usmashing you to become punishable via a headbutt? And as for her recovery... you're going to be LKd if you jump out at her... even worse, counterspiked... and the majority of times she will never use FW. I'd say if the risk is high enough, nayru's jumping is probably better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgYEcEwey_c&feature=channel_page This could be useful :/ but this is without dtilt trip combos or dtilt combos in general, and I can't speak for DK here either but I've heard through the grapevine Atomsk is a great player.
mr. eh covered the dtilt part, dk will keep you at his spacing
usmash can be SDI'd out of, just not normal DI, tap sideways and you should break, also, the headbutt will beat it if it's out and dk uses headbutt above the hitbox, the headbutt hitbox has enough range below it to go through the usmash.
in the air an aimed bair does beat LK's in terms of range and speed
go to genesis, i'll gladly MM you there
also, that atomsk is not the good one you've heard about, that's some guy in hawaii. his dk wasn't that good (no offense), and he still lost when he went marth, which is a bad matchup for you if i remember right.
Sorry I was just trying to look for an example, I guess the spotdodge wasn't a good one. What if she buffers one from shield? What if she airdodges behind DK and hits with the backend part of dtilt? what if she gets into a clanking war with his dtilt? There are so many sitations...
What if she jumps to DK, he anticipates the airdodge, starts dtilting, then BAM, lightning kick occurs. What if she jumps towards him, he anticipates her getting closer to him, starts dtilting, then she fast falls to FSmash?
This is all based on Zelda approaching bear in mind. And DK won't be standing still. He'll be moving around, jumping, and likely to experience landing lag, mispaces and other 'mistakes' also. Dtilt is eventually bound to happen numerous times, just as much as his dtilt will probably hit her.
dk won't be jumping much if we don't want to, even then, bair is safe from dtilts and that is basically dk's air game, just bair and ko moves.
the problem with dtilt landing is that you have to get inside dk's spacing, which is a royal pain in the *** (ask any falco who tried for the cg, my average is getting them to 70% before they get it, and theirs is unblockable, yours can be blocked. you might get it, but if dk just spaces on the ground, it'll be hard. our dtilt has a lot more range than yours.
also, let me assure you that their will be a stock difference. you're good at koing, so it won't be as bad as someone like sonic (we die at 190 on average against him, ko him around 80, such a dumb matchup), but we do ko you earlier than you ko us, and gimping is a threat.
from the zeldas i've played i'd say dk's edge, maybe i'm wrong, but i've yet to play a zelda thats made me think otherwise
