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Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

Kataefi

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Yes, but I don't see how Mario would be at a 7-8 frame disadvantage at low percents.
No he won't. She'll start getting advantageous frames by 50% onwards, when the lock begins on Mario.

But it gets complicated - the lock works when she has a +5 frame advantage or more. The higher the enemy's percent, the greater the likelihood that she'll get this advantage. This means she can execute another dtilt straight after without you being to throw your shield up.

The more decayed dtilt is however, the less of an advantage she'll have, which means if she plays the stock wrongly, she might think she's locking you when really you can shield the next hit. But say she decays it.... but starts using it at 80%, then she'll still gain frame advantages because Mario's at such a late percent meaning she can chain them or dsmash straight after truly with no possible counter except SDIing away.

I don't recommend the lock though personally. It's good and bad for different reasons. I simply dtilt > dsmash at the optimum percent... because the dtilt will become decayed, but the dsmash will add percent to compensate for this decay, so you get equal hitstun when you use that dtilt again the next time. So dtilt > dsmash will always string together. It's nice damage builder from a fast move.

That's not forgetting the high trip rate of the move as well, and the fact that if she saves dtilt for higher percents, she can start comboing into smashes, dash attacks, tilts and grabs especially.
 

Kataefi

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I should probably do the same research on Mario's Utilt XD

Thanks for the info though.
You really should! I was astounded by all this crazy frame data myself. It's hard to get your head around it all, but once you understand it you can really begin to see all the advantages it gives you.

I think dtilt is Zelda's best move imo. And I also believe if you find potential frame advantages from Mario's Utilt then you can have nice setups and strings of attacks to get that damage up fast.
 

Brinzy

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I never said that Mario would be at a 7-8 frame disadvantage at low percents (read: below 60%, which is when I say the lock is best started), though I did make a different incorrect statement with the "waiting for 7-8 frames" part.

I don't like saving my dtilt like that. If I can lock them, I don't see why I would settle for dtilt -> Dsmash. A slightly fresher dtilt <<< an extra 20% minimum.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Dtilt to DSmash ceases to be an option at around 100%... but, luckily, at that percent, Dtilt -> Usmash or Utilt begins to work, and they kill ridonculously well as well.
 

A2ZOMG

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I'll just say this:

Boss is effing amazing. If I can go almost even with him Zelda HAS to have an advantage. Not to count myself out or anything, but come on. It's effing BOSS.
Boss sandbags alot.

Sorry to break it to you.

Btw Mario's stutter step F-smash outrange's Marth's (and I don't just mean it hits Marth as he leans forward. I mean it actually hits him from a spot further away than he can reach from a standing position). Just to give you an idea that Mario has a trick around the whole OHNOES THIS GUY HAS MORE RANGE argument.
 

Half-Split Soul

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Btw Mario's stutter step F-smash outrange's Marth's (and I don't just mean it hits Marth as he leans forward. I mean it actually hits him from a spot further away than he can reach from a standing position). Just to give you an idea that Mario has a trick around the whole OHNOES THIS GUY HAS MORE RANGE argument.
Mario´s stutter step F-smash has good range, but with just one long move he can´t override the range disadvantage. Of course he also lots of other ways to get past it with aerials and fireballs, but it reguires him to watch his actions more. F-smash also doesn´t work as an approach, so Mario doesn´t have much completely reliable approaches.
 

Kataefi

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Boss sandbags alot.

Sorry to break it to you.
Yeah, that's not helping anything. Iirc powuh of pie sandbags a lot too so it breaks even ;)



The reason I don't recommend the lock is that people can SDI it pretty quickly. You'll get 2 or 3 and you might miss that dsmash afterwards if they're lucky. You'd do about 20% damage on a good player and you'd never be able to do that again from 50% onwards unless you catch at really late percents.

Dtilt > Dsmash everytime does slightly less damage but you can do the chain more often when you catch them again with another dtilt. You actually do more damage in the long run.

BUT... sometimes it's good to decay the dtilt... because then it won't necessarily pop them at 100% and you can lock them there and then because the hit is weak enough whilst giving enough stun. It all just comes down to how you want to use it really.
 

Brinzy

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Can't you just use any other attack on the ground, though? Dash attack? Ftilt? Dsmash is Zelda's worst ranged move on the ground. They don't all have to be dtilt -> Dsmash
 

MrEh

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Just don't get hit by it. Seriously, I rarely get hit by the Dtilt and I use effing BOWSER.

Honestly, as much as it's hyped, the Dtilt isn't that scary.
 

Half-Split Soul

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Bowser's so easy to kick in the face... he's freaking HUGE! =p

But d-tilt is dangerous. Not alone, but it can lead into anything. Mario can avoid it better than many others though.
 

Brinzy

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Well, Bowser is big, but he's a top tier character as far as "you touch my shield and I will wreck your ****" goes.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Yeah, but Delfino is always changing.

And Corneria isn't legal everywhere. ><
I was thinking about corneria. I locked a peach there until 100 damage once and then chained into Utilt for a pretty much ree KO that stock... same match I lightning kicked her while simultaneously grabbing the turnip she chucked at me.... it wasn't pretty.
 

Kataefi

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If anyone here can claim never to be hit by jabs and quick attacks frames 6 and under, then I bow down to them. Seriously... you don't just walk up to someone and dtilt lol! It's one of, if not, the easiest move to land ^^
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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If anyone here can claim never to be hit by jabs and quick attacks frames 6 and under, then I bow down to them. Seriously... you don't just walk up to someone and dtilt lol! It's one of, if not, the easiest move to land ^^
it's one of her few moves without a disjoint and the hurtbox for her is quite horizontally long in the case of the attack, but it is fast, and it has respectable range. It's zelda's equivalent of a jab since her standing A move has properties so non-standard for a jab.
 

Takumaru

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I was thinking about corneria. I locked a peach there until 100 damage once and then chained into Utilt for a pretty much ree KO that stock... same match I lightning kicked her while simultaneously grabbing the turnip she chucked at me.... it wasn't pretty.
I HAD BEEN IN THE CAR FOR 5 ****ING HOURS! :mad:
 

Canvasofgrey

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I'd go as far as to say the worst grab in the game.
She doesn't have a horrible grab really. The range on it is longer than average, then thing is, is that it's slow. Zelda doesn't actually *Grab* until she holds out her second hand (For whatever reason), and so characters can quickly avoid it or break it with a fast move.

I have to admit though. Zelda's grabs aren't all that great compared to other characters.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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She doesn't have a horrible grab really. The range on it is longer than average, then thing is, is that it's slow.
the range is NOT good enough to make up for its awful speed. it's like a tether without the range of a thether... who would have a WORSE grab?

Well as long as I was cute while losing... ;)
you were, I can assure you ;)
 

Half-Split Soul

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ZSS has a worse grab.
I agree. The startup isn´t bad, but if it misses... *shivers*

But I don´t think Zelda´s grab is so horrible many people think it is. It´s bad, no question about it, but it´s not hopeless. I still get enemies grabbed regularly and avoid punishment pretty often when I miss, so it can´t be too horrible.

Luckily her throws make up for it. Not with damage, knockback or followups, but because of her downthrow. She smacks enemies down on the ground, stomps on them and electrocutes them. WITH HER FEET. What could beat that?

*Gets LK´d*
 

gm jack

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Zelda's grabs may not be great, but you have to use a few, or else they can rely on their shield to much. Also, while the back throw isn't great, a perfect shield => grab => back throw does have KO potential on maps with smaller edges, like Jungle Japes.

Uthrow can also set up KO moves if you can guess their DI and dodge.

As for Mario, if Mario gets on top of her, Zelda will really struggle to regain control. However, if Zelda can repel his approaches and stopping him getting close enough to begin a "combo", then Mario will have a hard time dealing damage and landing kill moves.
 

Kataefi

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Backthrow really won't kill against someone with good DI, unless they're at ridiculous killing percents where one smash will do the job anyways.

Mario on top of Zelda = Usmash/Utilt/Uair ^^. You probably mean the other way round.

Is that Samus' zair coming out of ganon's hand?
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Luckily her throws make up for it. Not with damage, knockback or followups, but because of her downthrow. She smacks enemies down on the ground, stomps on them and electrocutes them. WITH HER FEET. What could beat that?
uh.... she doesn't use her feet? She uses her left palm?

anyway, yeah ZSS's grab has the horrible horrible punishment factor to it, but at least it's got better speed and range than zelda's. It'll be less often used because it's easier to punish, but, when it is used, it'll work a lot more often.
 

Half-Split Soul

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uh.... she doesn't use her feet? She uses her left palm?
Well... I really don't know. But I like to think she is using her feet since it feels more natural to me.

And seriously, what is that sith-powered lightning of Ganondorf? It looks like it could be Samus' Zair, but I don't see her in the picture.

It also looks to me that it's starting to be time to make final summaries about Mario as the conversation is getting off-topic.
 
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