Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

[MrEh]

Bowser boards are discussing Zelda

So yeah, any input would be appreciated. Not like it matters though, since I'm pretty sure all my shenanigans with DarkMusician have given me an accurate view of the matchup already. XD

 

[Kataefi]

Bowser boards are discussing Zelda

So yeah, any input would be appreciated. Not like it matters though, since I'm pretty sure all my shenanigans with DarkMusician have given me an accurate view of the matchup already. XD

Yeah you've probably got the most informed opinion for playing DM offline. I used to struggle with bowser's, I still partly do but I've learnt the matchup a lot more now I think.

Also, we're on Mario now! Iirc Boss said Zelda's harder than Sheik, and Sheik goes slightly even with him apparently. What does everyone think?

 

[AzNfinesse]

perfect timing. i JUST played a mario today at a tourney. here's what I got out of it.

mario has FAST aerials with little to no lag in them. really tricky to handle. best way to deal with this is to bait his aerials and abuse the little lag he has with usmash followed by a nair. this particular mario liked to be in the air, and he will have the advantage over you unless you can space your bair's perfectly. once he was on the ground, however, that was a different story.

so long as you can avoid the fsmash sweetspot by mario, zelda has the advantage here.your fsmash, ftilt, and jab outrange pretty much everything. her upsmash can be a problem for mario too when he tries to approach from the air. i also noticed that a dtilt lock > fsmash is possible at lower percentages than most characters (unless he just didn't sdi properly, which i doubt, it happened at about 30%).

don't bother reflecting the fireballs. this is mario's main approach. shield it or sh dodge them and follow with a usmash if the spacing is right.

the biggest killer that got me was 2 of his attacks...his F.L.U.D.D. and his cape. very problematic for the recovery. do your best to not let mario gimp kill you...for once you're off the edge, you have to have perfect timing and spacing to get back alive.

this is a fight where you may want to do the shiek/zelda combo, as shiek does better at dealing damage to mario. if you absolutely can't use shiek, then CP luigi's mansion and abuse the pillars to the sides. it completely hinder's mario's approach. just don't get caught in one of mario's attack combos in luigi's and you should be fine (this is the CP i used and it worked out great).

in my honest opinion this is a 50/50...if not 55/45 mario just because of the cape and F.L.U.D.D. gimp he can do on zelda's recovery.

 

[Ochobobo]

Ooh, thanks for moving my chart to the first post, Kataefi!

Just added quite a few updates to it. The Sheik boards finished discussing Snake and decided upon 40/60. Even though that's exactly the same as Zelda's, I still highlighted Sheik's ratio as being better, and left a footnote saying why that is. I ended up doing the same with Marth.

I also replaced the faded out Triforce symbol under the Sheik ditto section with a faded out Sheikah symbol, lol.

 

[ShinigamiMarth]

I'd say 60/40 Zel; the FLUDD is not a problem if you know it's coming out (and it usually only comes out to recovery-gimp).

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

if he capes the startup of farore's, let go of the control stick and then flick it back in the directrion that you want to go again. It's that simple... he should never kill you with cape like that.
Don't ever use din's near an edge that he can use flood. other than that this is pretty simple. Don't underestimate mario... he's not the easiest thing to hit with lightning kick, which sucks, but he's not impossibly hard to hit either, so just play smart and we probably have a 55:45 here.

 

[AzNfinesse]

what this mario did is he used the cape AFTER i teleported and sent me in the other direction and wouldn't let me grab the edge.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

what this mario did is he used the cape AFTER i teleported and sent me in the other direction and wouldn't let me grab the edge.

what do you mean after you teleported? you mean once you already reapeared? if so, all that does is flip you backwards... that shouldn't kill you unless you were in an awful position anyway.

 

[Mocha19]

I think he could edgehog her right after the cape connects depending on how fast he is. I haven't played a good Mario before, but I at least have some experience to know that in both Melee and Brawl, his comboing and gimping are big priorities in his metagame, no matter what character he's facing.

Try to teleport during FLUDD's animation. I don't think it affects Zelda while she's invisible.

 

[Monk/Honkey/Banana]

Zelda is one of Mario's easier match-ups in my opinion but that's cause I've had so much practice since the beginning of the game.

in this match it's all about spacing for Mario...cause it won't matter how good your killing moves are if you can't hit me with any of them

If Mario capes you right before you disappear you go the opposite direction. FLUDD can mess up your recovery a little bit but nothing too major

this match is probably about 50/50 maybe 60/40 in Mario's favor but I dunno I'll stick around a bit

 

[Kataefi]

You need to be very careful of Mario's Fsmash when you're at killing percents, you trade with it if you use Fsmash and you always get the worse end of the trade.

If you want to outspace his FSmash, Ftilt is reeeeally very good here. It beats his FSmash handily and the majority of his ground moveset. Other than that, just save dsmash or try and gimp with sour/sweetspot spikes if you get the chance. Dtilt lock can really mess with Mario, especially near the ledge.

Also... best to recover high IMO. I know it's useless but sometimes I like to nayru's jump to get as much height as possible so he can't reach with the cape. FLUDD really isn't a big problem to me at all.

I don't know about ratios. Let's get more opinions ^^

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Zelda is one of Mario's easier match-ups in my opinion but that's cause I've had so much practice since the beginning of the game.

in this match it's all about spacing for Mario...cause it won't matter how good your killing moves are if you can't hit me with any of them

Zelda tends to outrange mario actually.

If Mario capes you right before you disappear you go the opposite direction. FLUDD can mess up your recovery a little bit but nothing too major

as I mentioned before, it's really easy to negate the effects of cape... you should never die by caped recovery. And FLUDD's just about useless since it can't hit her when she's invisible.

Mario's heavier, faster and smaller, but zelda's got range and power on the little bugger... most marios I know like to approach aerially or with fireballs. Upsmash destroys the former method, fireballs are dealt with situationally... learn to do that and you should be great.

 

[Monk/Honkey/Banana]

Zelda tends to outrange mario actually.

outranging an opponent has nothing to do with proper spacing...all I have to do is anticipate what move you want to do and at when you want to do it...

I'll admit it's a game of trial and error but I have had times when I figured out everything and got in an extra 100% before I died

as I mentioned before, it's really easy to negate the effects of cape... you should never die by caped recovery.

You start your up-b I jump out and cape before you disappear...if I did it right you should go off the screen...

And FLUDD's just about useless since it can't hit her when she's invisible.

who said anything about being invisible? if I push you back before you teleport you're going to be further back than before...and with Zelda's narrow recovery it should be too hard to figure out where you will recover to

Mario's heavier, faster and smaller, but zelda's got range and power on the little bugger... most marios I know like to approach aerially or with fireballs. Upsmash destroys the former method, fireballs are dealt with situationally... learn to do that and you should be great.

Mario's that approach from above against Zelda don't know the match-up...me personally I like to wait

 

[Kataefi]

You start your up-b I jump out and cape before you disappear...if I did it right you should go off the screen...

Usually FW is a very last resort. Normally her second jump is sufficient in recovering from anywhere.

But... this has happened to me before so I normally just teleport straight up on reaction to being caped just to get as much vertical coverage as possible to land on stage or grab the ledge.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

outranging an opponent has nothing to do with proper spacing...all I have to do is anticipate what move you want to do and at when you want to do it...

I'll admit it's a game of trial and error but I have had times when I figured out everything and got in an extra 100% before I died

that goes both ways. having better range/speed makes spacing easier too so... yeah. it's relavent. Let zelda figure out how to zone you and it's just as bad or worse.

You start your up-b I jump out and cape before you disappear...if I did it right you should go off the screen...

Usually FW is a very last resort. Normally her second jump is sufficient in recovering from anywhere.

But... this has happened to me before so I normally just teleport straight up on reaction to being caped just to get as much vertical coverage as possible to land on stage or grab the ledge.

After you get caped (if you've already started Faroe's), release control stick, put control stick back in direction you wanted to go in the first place... you go where you wanted to go in the first place. try it a few times. It'll always work, which renders mario's cape a non-gimp.

Zeldas who die by cape have no idea how to deal with the cape... or they know and they forget.

who said anything about being invisible? if I push you back before you teleport you're going to be further back than before...and with Zelda's narrow recovery it should be too hard to figure out where you will recover to

the hitboxes of farore's startup, as weak as they are, normally cancel out at least most of fludd's water which really makes it pretty **** near useless especially because Farore's has far enough range that it's extremely unlikely that you'll ever be able to get us in a bad enough position to use fludd to push us far enough away that we can't recover. if we're in THAT bad a position, we probably weren't recovering anyway and you'd be better off just edgeguarding.

Mario's that approach from above against Zelda don't know the match-up...me personally I like to wait

you have to approach once in a while becuase fireballs are not going to scare us into running at you when we'd much rather wait for you.

 

[Kataefi]

After you get caped (if you've already started Faroe's), release control stick, put control stick back in direction you wanted to go in the first place... you go where you wanted to go in the first place. try it a few times. It'll always work, which renders mario's cape a non-gimp

I didn't know this. This is extremely handy. That would imply that if she knew what she was doing, she would be very difficult to gimp, which is one of Mario's strongest assets.

I have to practise this.

 

[Mocha19]

I haven't had much experience against good Marios before because we don't really have any noteable ones, but I have had some experience in playing AS Mario. So I guess I'll put in what I normally do in any matchup as him. Knowing the basic strategy of a character always helps.

Approaching with fireballs is a pretty good thing to do sometimes, but in all honesty, I just find it better to camp with them. Caping other projectiles helps in this aspect cuz it protects from other projectile camping. I believe in this case of Zelda, cape just negates Din's Fire, so he won't have to worry about dodging or shielding. If he does decide to approach with a fireball and if it hits, his safe ways of following up are either grab or D-air. I'll explain more later.

 

[Monk/Honkey/Banana]

that goes both ways. having better range/speed makes spacing easier too so... yeah. it's relavent. Let zelda figure out how to zone you and it's just as bad or worse.

The whole match is trial and error and Mario players(or myself at least) are especially good at over coming long range.

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't Zelda's main attacks in the air are Nair, Fair and Bair(depending on the direction)? Nair gets canceled out by Mario's Dair and if I'm in front/back of you I'll probably expect fair/bair and react accordingly

you have to approach once in a while becuase fireballs are not going to scare us into running at you when we'd much rather wait for you.

I didn't say "Lets play the I'll camp with fireballs all day game!" I said I like to wait...all the means is once I get a response I want...I'll figure out what I'll do...

Like I said the match is probably 50/50 in the end it all comes down to who can bait the other guy into what they want

 

[adumbrodeus]

in this match it's all about spacing for Mario...cause it won't matter how good your killing moves are if you can't hit me with any of them

Zelda has the range advantage here, thus it's rather difficult to prevent hits with her by spacing, you wanna lock her up by being in her comfort zone.

this match is probably about 50/50 maybe 60/40 in Mario's favor but I dunno I'll stick around a bit

Lol, no.

Doesn't have the range to compete and get into zelda's defensive game, and the reflector prevents you just spamming all day (and to a lesser extent, fireball to approach), while Zelda has a projectile that she can actually mindgame you with because of it's large hitbox.

Basically, you have to choose whether to cape when Din's just gets in range or when it's almost out of range. 50/50 chance each time, same applies for most of his hitboxes (if there is one that can last that distance, let me know).

Shield? Din's eats through shield amazingly well.

Spotdodge? Same problem as cap.

Perfect shield? Good luck timing it.

Granted as the range gets closer it loses effectiveness, but it's usable pressure tool in this match-up.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

The whole match is trial and error and Mario players(or myself at least) are especially good at over coming long range.

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't Zelda's main attacks in the air are Nair, Fair and Bair(depending on the direction)? Nair gets canceled out by Mario's Dair and if I'm in front/back of you I'll probably expect fair/bair and react accordingly

zelda's main attacks in the air are to never be in the air, and when she is, to be choosy when she attacks. her fair and bair have good range and speed really, they just have very small sweetspots and her nair beats out mario's dair if placed properly, just as mario's dair will beat her fair if spaced properly.... but zelda probably wouldn't be dogfighting with it anyway.

I didn't say "Lets play the I'll camp with fireballs all day game!" I said I like to wait...all the means is once I get a response I want...I'll figure out what I'll do...

if it comes down to you trying to get reactions out of me through fireballs, I'll just start throwing out my fireballs... which will cancel out yours and damage you. not like they'll be hitting all the time, but you'd have to hit me with quite a few more than I you to make the exchange even... and mine pop you in the air... so zelda can be under you.... yay.

Like I said the match is probably 50/50 in the end it all comes down to who can bait the other guy into what they want

it's not a very slanted matchup, but mario clearly has a little more to work for here being plainly outranged and outgunned. It only hurts him more that his recovery is lackluster and zelda's Dsmash will probably result in his death at moderate-high damages due to the bad angle it sends you at.

As far as trying to zone zelda, she's going to outrange you so you have to be inside to make her nervous... and, that close, Dsmash, Dtilt and Nayru's, (and, sometimes, upsmash) are more than capable of letting her fend you off.

only time I tend to lose to marios is when I let myself get sloppy. His fireballs can set up for things if you don't try to counter them.

 

[Monk/Honkey/Banana]

Zelda has the range advantage here, thus it's rather difficult to prevent hits with her by spacing, you wanna lock her up by being in her comfort zone.

I understand range is an important issue... but how is it a MAJOR THREAT if I'm just outside of it?

Lol, no.

Doesn't have the range to compete and get into zelda's defensive game, and the reflector prevents you just spamming all day (and to a lesser extent, fireball to approach), while Zelda has a projectile that she can actually mindgame you with because of it's large hitbox.

Basically, you have to choose whether to cape when Din's just gets in range or when it's almost out of range. 50/50 chance each time, same applies for most of his hitboxes (if there is one that can last that distance, let me know).

Shield? Din's eats through shield amazingly well.

Spotdodge? Same problem as cap.

Perfect shield? Good luck timing it.

Granted as the range gets closer it loses effectiveness, but it's usable pressure tool in this match-up.

Din's Fire isn't exactly good against Mario...all of Mario's aerials go through it except for the Bair...plus we can reflect the explosion...

You're pretty much assuming the Marios you play against are thick...if you shoot it past me I'm going to run towards you, you stop in front of me I won't do anything, you stop it on me I'll cape it...anyway you look at it...it's a bad move against Mario

zelda's main attacks in the air are to never be in the air, and when she is, to be choosy when she attacks. her fair and bair have good range and speed really, they just have very small sweetspots and her nair beats out mario's dair if placed properly, just as mario's dair will beat her fair if spaced properly.... but zelda probably wouldn't be dogfighting with it anyway.

I just wanted to make sure...oh you do know Mario can get every character up in the air right?

if it comes down to you trying to get reactions out of me through fireballs, I'll just start throwing out my fireballs... which will cancel out yours and damage you. not like they'll be hitting all the time, but you'd have to hit me with quite a few more than I you to make the exchange even... and mine pop you in the air... so zelda can be under you.... yay.

once again...it's all about getting a response...you dins fire I'll do any of the previously listed.

it's not a very slanted matchup, but mario clearly has a little more to work for here being plainly outranged and outgunned. It only hurts him more that his recovery is lackluster and zelda's Dsmash will probably result in his death at moderate-high damages due to the bad angle it sends you at.

Mario is outranged in EVERY match-up...it's not that big of a deal. I admit Zelda's Dsmash is a killer in this match but there are ways to get around it.

As far as trying to zone zelda, she's going to outrange you so you have to be inside to make her nervous... and, that close, Dsmash, Dtilt and Nayru's, (and, sometimes, upsmash) are more than capable of letting her fend you off.

Dtilt leads to Dsmash. blah blah blah it's all about prediction powershield. Nayru's Powershield(Usmash tilt the shield up). the truth is once Mario is in your range it gets pretty hard to keep him out...it only takes one hit for Mario to get an entire opening

only time I tend to lose to marios is when I let myself get sloppy. His fireballs can set up for things if you don't try to counter them.

What Marios have you played against might I ask? Wifi really doesn't count either

 

[BoTastic!]

Every match up debate. The opposite side always pulls out the range crap. Range doesn't really decide the factor in this. DK, Rob and Ike out range mario pretty badly. They also have more range then Zelda. Do they have the advantage over Mario? No. Zelda can not keep Mario out at all. Din's fire is not a threat to any mario player. mario can get in side and stay inside. Zelda has her own with her CQC. I say the match up is even.

 

[Kataefi]

Every match up debate. The opposite side always pulls out the range crap. Range doesn't really decide the factor in this. DK, Rob and Ike out range mario pretty badly. They also have more range then Zelda. Do they have the advantage over Mario? No. Zelda can not keep Mario out at all. Din's fire is not a threat to any mario player. mario can get in side and stay inside. Zelda has her own with her CQC. I say the match up is even.

Nayru's, Dsmash, Usmash and FW all say hi ^^ That's way up close though. I would imagine ROB is a pain to get close to as well with that dsmash, but I can't think of any other alternative he would use, which makes it predictable.

You're right though at the end of the day. Mario wins if he can get inside Zelda... and Zelda wins if she can ward him off somehow. It's a fun matchup.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I understand range is an important issue... but how is it a MAJOR THREAT if I'm just outside of it?

cause you can't hit us either?

Din's Fire isn't exactly good against Mario...all of Mario's aerials go through it except for the Bair...plus we can reflect the explosion...

yes you can... unless you're throwing a fireball at that moment. just saying that if you expect throwing fireballs at us until we mess up, don't expect us not to beat you for it.

You're pretty much assuming the Marios you play against are thick...if you shoot it past me I'm going to run towards you, you stop in front of me I won't do anything, you stop it on me I'll cape it...anyway you look at it...it's a bad move against Mario

it's a "bad" move in those respects against anyone. Din's has very specific aplications, and it's good at those things... mainly hitting you during cooldown of anything.

I just wanted to make sure...oh you do know Mario can get every character up in the air right?

no really? I was completely unaware. I'm not completely aware of how that's relavent anyway. Just because you pop zelda into the air, that doesn't mean she's going to forget that she doesn't want to be there and start attacking you with moves you can outprioitize and such. She's going to run away until she's groundbound again, unless you put yourself in a bad position when trying to chase her or something.

once again...it's all about getting a response...you dins fire I'll do any of the previously listed.

I'm not spamming din's like an idiot, I'm using it from a position that you can't punish and may have a hard time avoiding.

Mario is outranged in EVERY match-up...it's not that big of a deal. I admit Zelda's Dsmash is a killer in this match but there are ways to get around it.

Zelda's absolutely no fun to approach. She might not have projectiles like ROB's to force an approach, but when damage forces you to approach she can block most possible angles of entry with no problem whatsoever. people who are bad matchups for zelda are people who can outcamp her and/or outrange her... mario is neither.

Dtilt leads to Dsmash. blah blah blah it's all about prediction powershield. Nayru's Powershield(Usmash tilt the shield up). the truth is once Mario is in your range it gets pretty hard to keep him out...it only takes one hit for Mario to get an entire opening

How is it that seer like skills of prediction negate our advantages even though those are completely player specific and yet it is assumed that Zelda's couldn't possibly have the same level of prediction ability?
-It's tough for mario
-nu-uh, because he can guess everything you're going to do and powersheild->counter it
-can't we do the same to him and end up being better for it since we were better in the first place?
-no

I fail to follow.

Listen I was never saying it was a big advantage: 55:45 Zelda. But she's got mario on this. She's got more kill moves, a more reliable recovery and more range (yes. that matters.) What he's got on her from what YOU say assumes that Mario somehow is better at predicting than zelda is... which is just an unfair assumtion.

 

[Monk/Honkey/Banana]

"I'm not spamming din's fire like an idiot"

you think I'm going to be spamming fireballs like an idiot?

"Din's Fire has special applications"

You're right...I forgot you can be in one spot and have it go somewhere else? I really don't see what "Special applications" you are talking about elaborate please

---

apparently even if I'm out spacing and I'm OUTSIDE of your MASSIVE range I still can't counter attack with a stutterstepped Fsmash during your ending lag I'm still not out spacing you...

and even though Zelda players tend to have the same pattern when on the ground there is NO WAY IN HELL I'd be able to predict a Dsmash after X amount of Dtilts

The point I'm trying to make is for every option you have...Mario has something against it and vise versa... I don't recall me ever saying you can't powershield anything I send your way I'm just saying your options while still good aren't bulletproof.

 

[Kataefi]

The dsmash combos truly from those dtilts... but that's not how it should be applied. If she saves it for around 50%, and follows the pattern of dtilt > dsmash everytime, the hitstun will always be enough thereon to combo the two moves truly, with nothing Mario can do, no powershield will work.

The lock is useful, but it stales dtilt too much for it to be of use anytime after the lock, unless there's some hitstun I'm unaware of. But doing dsmash straight after dtilt builds damage on the opponent which is exactly what a slightly more decayed dtilt will need later on. Not forgetting on trip she can do whatever she wants to do... most likely the best option is to grab, pummel and throw.

If she's building damage from a spammable frame 5 move... with guaranteed followups after, she can build damage and refresh her moveset very easily for say, a Usmash kill, which kills him when it lands on Mario at 100%. It's just such a handy move IMO when and only when you use to its fullest potential.

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

I'll just say this:

Boss is effing amazing. If I can go almost even with him Zelda HAS to have an advantage. Not to count myself out or anything, but come on. It's effing BOSS.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Playing against Monk, he's right on a bunch of aspects and he hasn't mentioned that Zelda isn't exactly strong in countering Mario's ledge game.

Sheik is actually invaluable in worth in this matchup because of her strong damage racking capability, as well as gimping/offstage game but since this is for Zelda, I'll stick to her.

Yes, once Mario gets Zelda into the air, he can beat up on her quite a bit until she can make it back to the ground. Of course Zelda will outrange Mario, but really, who doesn't? Patient Marios are very tough though. It's a big game of cat vs. mouse, Zelda having all the kill power in the world and Mario being complicated to hit so long as he doesn't come guns-a-blazing. Dsmash is big on keeping Mario out of range at higher damages and is scary to Mario because of the angle he's sent flying. The Dtilt lock can be UpB'ed by Mario so he might have to be treated like Marth in that sense, very carefully.

Thanks to Zeldas superior kill power, Mario damage racking is somewhat countered. Mario's gimping can be an issue but like Sonic said, FW can be fixed once caped. What I do recommend though is try to get on stage more times than sweetspotting the ledge since Mario will ruin you with either FLUDD of cape should you be just short. Also, in my experience, going to fight Mario offstage can be bad for you. Don't do it unless you are really confident in your offstage game.

That's my two cents for now, not exactly sure what else to add besides don't go trying to reflect his fireballs because then the real burning begins lol.

 

[Brinzy]

Jab. Use it.



Anyway, the only Mario I've played is Matador. He tends to string attacks very effectively against me and put me away quickly. I tend to string a lot less for character reasons, but low % strings (dtilt -> ftilt -> utilt, dash attacks while he's in enough stun to be caught by them, or Usmash -> Usmash) build up enough damage for me to start playing defensive (in other words, Jab) and get him into dtilt lock range, which is similar to lightning kick KO range. Mario is hard to lightning kick when it's an air to air thing. It's much different when you shield anything that isn't a very low lag attack. He doesn't have a very hard time approaching me in general (from what I can tell), but once I started practicing with Jab, I've had much more success. I think he's more skilled than me, but I don't think this match-up is a 60/40 in Mario's favor.

Mario is pretty good at baiting responses in general. Fireballs are somewhat annoying to deal with at a closer range, but you can still Din's the fireball and Mario to at least prevent that approach. Nayru's, in my experience, works great against Mario's attacks. Learn the invincibility of this, especially for Mario, because aside from Fsmash, none of his attacks are so disjointed that you won't reach with it. Otherwise, the main two OoS options you need to be using are bair and Dsmash. Those have worked best for me.

As for recovery, when I first started playing against him, Matador tore right through it. With some practice though, it's a bit of a rarer occurance. If he's gonna shoot FLUDD at you, Nayru's. No, it won't reflect it, but it will negate the pushback of it. Now all you have to do is warp. If the cape is a problem, warp on the stage and just pray that you don't take a stock loss. At higher %s, I say go for the edge more often. Mario's harder to edgeguard. I usually just ledgedrop and attempt an aerial when he's farther away. If I misjudge, Nayru's helps with its invincibility and how it slows you down. Otherwise, you're looking to get yourself killed.

I prefer to use ftilt over Fsmash in this match-up. Angled ftilt works against approaches, but Jab is the best. You'll rarely find yourself in a situation where you Fsmash and hit him and NOT take his attacks. You might as well go with the jointed, but quicker version. I keep mentioning Jab for a good reason. I didn't use it much before against Mario, but it stops his SH approaches nicely. Jab -> dtilt/Dsmash are great moves to keep him out. Ever since I realized this, I've performed better against Matador.

This isn't in Mario's favor from what I can tell. Once you get used to how he edgeguards, it's easier to not get edgeguarded. (Duh.) His approaches are decent, but again, Jab and dtilt keep him at bay. I have rarely been punished for Nayru's on a fireball, though I find it better to jump and Nayru's to deal with his aerials and the fireball. Don't go off-stage against him. Watch out for his smashes.

The Dtilt lock can be UpB'ed by Mario

No it can't. At the proper % and decay, you have enough frame advantage to hit him with another before he can move.

don't go trying to reflect his fireballs because then the real burning begins lol.

If he's approaching with the fireball, Nayru's does work just fine. If it's from farther away, Din's it out. Fireball isn't really that much of an issue unless you're caught off guard.

apparently even if I'm out spacing and I'm OUTSIDE of your MASSIVE range I still can't counter attack with a stutterstepped Fsmash during your ending lag I'm still not out spacing you...

and even though Zelda players tend to have the same pattern when on the ground there is NO WAY IN HELL I'd be able to predict a Dsmash after X amount of Dtilts

Apparently, Zelda is attacking Mario with a laggy attack (read: something that is not Jab or Fsmash) when Mario is clearly not in range so she can get hit. This would be called poor spacing on Zelda's behalf, which is a player issue, which does not have any bearing on Zelda, which does not belong in this discussion.

If you're getting hit by X amount of dtilts, then you're probably in a dtilt lock. If you're in a dtilt lock, you're probably gonna get hit by Dsmash even if you utter, "Oh I know what you're gonna do, you're gonna Dsmash me!" to whoever you're playing. Once again, this does not matter. If you're getting hit by dtilt and then blocking Dsmash, Zelda is doing it wrong.

Every match up debate. The opposite side always pulls out the range crap. Range doesn't really decide the factor in this. DK, Rob and Ike out range mario pretty badly. They also have more range then Zelda. Do they have the advantage over Mario? No. Zelda can not keep Mario out at all. Din's fire is not a threat to any mario player. mario can get in side and stay inside. Zelda has her own with her CQC. I say the match up is even.

Ok, cool, range isn't everything.

However, when you're facing someone who does have more range than you and they can effectively negate your projectiles, yes, it does become a problem. Let's put it this way:

DK vs. Mario
+ range for DK
- projectile (doesn't have one)
- reflector

Ike vs. Mario
(See DK)

Robot vs. Mario
+ range for Robot
- projectile (because the cape exists)
- reflector (it's a worse reflector than Nayru's)

Now let's look at Zelda
+ range for Zelda
= projectile (cancels out your projectile just fine, but at least you can remain relatively safe from it)
+ or = reflector (as far as projectiles go anyway - a chance of reflecting a fireball for damage/stopping approaches and not taking damage > not taking damage, but clearly if the Zelda player does it wrong, she's getting punished)


Zelda does not share the same characteristics as the three of them besides range and power. Before someone runs in and goes, "Oh, but she's lighter, so it doesn't matter as much", bear in mind that she's floaty and thus doesn't suffer from getting bounced up and down the court unlike those other three. She might get bounced in the air, but I've never been hit more than twice in the air by *any* character in this game at any given point, not counting multi-hit stuff like Mario's dair as more than one hit.

Long story short, Zelda has the range and power of those three and more and should not be compared to them.

Din's Fire isn't exactly good against Mario...all of Mario's aerials go through it except for the Bair...plus we can reflect the explosion...

You're pretty much assuming the Marios you play against are thick...if you shoot it past me I'm going to run towards you, you stop in front of me I won't do anything, you stop it on me I'll cape it...anyway you look at it...it's a bad move against Mario

False. It's called canceling out his fireballs and stalling his approach, even at close range, where you can actually cancel his fireball and hit him in the lag. If Zelda isn't taking any damage from using Din's, there is no harm in using it to force you to approach her. If you're behind in damage, you're going to approach her because your fireballs aren't going anywhere.

Din's works just fine against Mario.

Dtilt leads to Dsmash. blah blah blah it's all about prediction powershield. Nayru's Powershield(Usmash tilt the shield up). the truth is once Mario is in your range it gets pretty hard to keep him out...it only takes one hit for Mario to get an entire opening

Once again, LOL @ powershielding Dsmash after dtilt. Who the hell is using this on you at like 30% so you can do this to Zelda? At low %s, I don't even use dtilt that much because of how vulnerable you can be because of it. Better for Zeldas to dtilt -> grab.

Ok, Mario can string attacks on her. He gets a few in at lower %s and then gets two at most at higher damages, usually just one because you're not pushing her far away.

Now let's reverse this dramatic situation:

- I powershield your aerial and hit you with my bair at 80%. Guaranteed death, though in practice I can kill at 65%.

- I shield anything that doesn't push me too far back at ~60%. I dtilt lock you and end it with Dsmash or ftilt and put you above 100% or possibly death depending on where you are.

- I feel like I don't know what to do but I shield your attack. I Dsmash and start the process all over again.

Zelda has more OoS options, but Mario's attacks can be dealt with just fine with these few.

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't Zelda's main attacks in the air are Nair, Fair and Bair(depending on the direction)? Nair gets canceled out by Mario's Dair and if I'm in front/back of you I'll probably expect fair/bair and react accordingly

If Zelda knows that the nair hitbox isn't on her head, she shouldn't be losing to dair often with her nair (and should be using a lightning kick instead).

 

[Kataefi]

The Dtilt lock can be UpB'ed by Mario so he might have to be treated like Marth in that sense, very carefully.

If that's happening you're doing it too early in their percents or your using a decayed dtilt. You need to do it all at the optimum percents so that there's enough stun he won't be able to counter with up+b.

 

[MrEh]

Dtilt OoS.

I don't even use Zelda and I know that this works.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

That's a good point that Dtilt, at the right decays, can turn into the lock. I was making a mention of Mario's UpB since when I ftilt lock him as Sheik, he manages to pop out of it with his UpB. Frame advantages with Dtilt slipped my mind lol.

 

[BoTastic!]

I understand that, but that's not the point. Everyone is like, "Omg Mario has no range, he loses" I'm just giving you and example that Mario can get around range. Fireballs have little effect on DK anyway. He can get around his range without a problem because of his speed. Mario>Zelda in terms of speed. 60:40 in Mario's favor seems too much for me. I'm going with even like i said before.

About the Dtilt lock, I escaped it with Up B before. I'll have to test it. Even if its blocked, Up B OOS sheild works 100% of the time.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I understand that, but that's not the point. Everyone is like, "Omg Mario has no range, he loses" I'm just giving you and example that Mario can get around range. Fireballs have little effect on DK anyway. He can get around his range without a problem because of his speed. Mario>Zelda in terms of speed. 60:40 in Mario's favor seems too much for me. I'm going with even like i said before.

About the Dtilt lock, I escaped it with Up B before. I'll have to test it. Even if its blocked, Up B OOS sheild works 100% of the time.

range dissadvantage isn't everything, but it's something. He HAS to get around it to function. which is worse than not having to.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

This is a though one... Mario loses in range (obviously) and his edgeguard doesn´t work against Zelda too well most of the time. On the other hand he´s faster and can actually kill Zelda freguently with his U- and F-smashes as well as get in some combos...

I think the biggest problems for Mario are his limited recovery and that his normal playstyle doesn´t work as well as usually. Usually Mario´s like to approach with shorthop aerials and fireballs, but Zelda´s F-tilt, Din and U-smash are great for blocking those. This forces Mario to limit his approaches or to use more mindgames.

In the damage dealing they´re pretty even. If Mario gets inside Zelda, he can cause lots of damage with "combos", but usually Zelda can keep him away and gradually damage him. So Mario can make more damage at once, but Zelda gets damage done more freguently.

As killers Zelda has her smashes and kicks. Kicks can be hard to land because Mario smallish size and speed, but smashes aren´t. She kills him pretty early and D-smash is very deadly near the ledge, but she can´t edgeguard him for gimps. Mario has his U- and F-smashes which kill Zelda earlier than many other characters and F.L.U.D.D. and cape in edgeguarding. Zelda´s long recovery with invincibility protects her often from gimping, but it´s somewhat limited directions can cause situation where she has to teleport just slightly above the edge, allowing Mario to cape or spray her to death. Mario can also get in some surprise smashes with his shorthop tactics. That´s why it´s often dangerous to Nayru his fireballs: Mario can sweetspot F-smash Zelda if she reflects his shorthop fireball, for example.

All in all I´d give Zelda an advantage. Her range does make the spacing easier and she has good killing options, as well as ways to inflict damage. Mario has slightly harder time killing and might have some problems with getting a chance to cause damage. He can gain the total domination over the match if he gets the rhythm on his side, though. So I´d say 55:45 for Zelda.

About the Dtilt lock, I escaped it with Up B before.

If you escaped Zelda probably hit you badly. In some stages the D-tilt can hit enemies in strange places or just partially so that they have more time to move between the hits.

Spoiler

Yes, I´m back.

 

[BoTastic!]

range dissadvantage isn't everything, but it's something. He HAS to get around it to function. which is worse than not having to.

Exactly my point. I'm glad someone thinks range isn't everything.

Something we should be used to though, more than 70% of the characters in this game out range Mario.

 

[Brinzy]

About the Dtilt lock, I escaped it with Up B before. I'll have to test it. Even if its blocked, Up B OOS sheild works 100% of the time.

Then you were never really locked in the first place. If they started it too early, you can Up B out of it. If they actually waited a bit, they'd have such a large frame advantage that they could wait nearly 7-8 frames and still dtilt you. It took me a bit of time to actually understand the complete physics of the lock, but for the most part, you're looking at around 60% for the lock, earlier if I decayed it.

 

[Judge Judy]

Then you were never really locked in the first place. If they started it too early, you can Up B out of it. If they actually waited a bit, they'd have such a large frame advantage that they could wait nearly 7-8 frames and still dtilt you. It took me a bit of time to actually understand the complete physics of the lock, but for the most part, you're looking at around 60% for the lock, earlier if I decayed it.

I don't understand this part, Zelda's Dtilt does not have that much hitstun and the Dtilt itself comes out in 5 frames.

 

[Kataefi]

I don't understand this part, Zelda's Dtilt does not have that much hitstun and the Dtilt itself comes out in 5 frames.

This thread will explain everything: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=218082

edit: successor the lock would work later if you decayed it... which is still very useful in racking and chaining moves together without the need to pop them up.

 

[Judge Judy]

This thread will explain everything: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=218082

edit: successor the lock would work later if you decayed it... which is still very useful in racking and chaining moves together without the need to pop them up.

Yes, but I don't see how Mario would be at a 7-8 frame disadvantage at low percents.